Guild Wars 2

The class is pretty much based around attunement, so no matter what happens everyone will be locked into this set unless making only using 1-2 attunements a viable option.

There are some X/X/X/X/20 builds out there too.

I’ve yet to see one that’s not at least X/X/X/10/20 though.

Just a though, what if they changed the base attunement timer to 10 sec and change the Arcane trait bonus to 1% per point? Would that allow for more variety in builds?

Yes it would and no it wouldn’t.

Yes, because it would allow the class to be effective without investing in Arcana, and would open up new build paths and options for eles as a whole.

And also no, because Evasive Arcana gives elementalists such a HUGE amount of survivability through water dodges and utility through earth dodges that it’s kind of hard to not invest in to.

I speak just for spvp/tpvp since it’s the only thing i know.

30 arcane is a must have for any build for 2 reasons: attunement cd reduction and evasive arcana being too good to pass.

So i think it would be a good thing to reduce base cd on attunements and cd reduction in the arcana line. That said, please please please give us decent fire traits and find something to make the ele more viable as a glass. Blind on scepter 3 is way too little to make us decent glass cannons. And dont get me started on fire traits…

Yeah, the profession is a mess.

I know the devs like to throw out how many skills we have with all the attunements. But has anyone evaluated how many of the 20 skills are either worthless or redundant versions of another skill in a different attunement? How much of the “balancing” the class received of late, do you think is really just an attempt to increase the value of filler, by devaluing more useful skills?

I kind of agree with this, although it’s gotten better since fresh air which can get away without much arcane. You’ll still want 10 for elemental attunement though, since it’s pro. I feel like this issue will eventually get better if they continue in this direction.

The problem is 30 arcane is a must have. It is also good to have high arcane. Then the problem is high arcane is a must have for the DnD ele. But why the fix when its not broken?

I use X/X/X/X/10, and it’s honestly not THAT bad..

I was running 10/30/0/10/20 (staff) lately with great success and OK damage. I stayed alive just because I’m good at dodging and smometimes going to die with vapor form at the feet of the other classes that stay alive longer.

I’m now running 0/30/0/20/20 (20 more in water) because of some GvG stuff (we organize those ourselves because Anet is too focuses on PvE to implement it – even if the game is called GUILD WARS)

It’s quite sad however that I cannot run the build I was running at the release, which was 30/30/0/0/10. All the unjustified nerfs ruined that build and made it unplayable: How can you survive without points in water if you cant heal in mist form, have less mobility than other classes and less health?

Anyway, I use my ele only to farm now because of the aoe, else I moved to other classes.

If evasive arcana was a master trait maybe less than 30 would be viable. But that trait almost doubles our sustain so it is nearly impossible to go without.

I would probably just remove evasive arcane the way it is now (buff other stuff in turn), and rethink the idea of the hot-stance-swapping. If stances are supposed to be slower by default then make them more meaningful (each stance should have passive stat bonuses), but reduce the reduction gainable in turn.

If not, just reduce the base CD, and instead make the trait give stats depending on stance.

In PvE anything more than 10 points in arcana is a waste of points.

I play spvp with only 10 points in arcane.
Though there are a few times I wished I had the shorter cds.
EA isn’t as good for sPvP as it is for WvW

We should create a thread to brainstorm alternative effects you can gain from investing in Arcana, because Arcana’s necessity will never cease until we have a fixed attunement cd. On a different note, I’ve considered removing Evasive Arcana and moving the dodge effects to minor/master traits across the lines, while increasing their effects.

Leuca.5732:

We should create a thread to brainstorm alternative effects you can gain from investing in Arcana, because Arcana’s necessity will never cease until we have a fixed attunement cd. On a different note, I’ve considered removing Evasive Arcana and moving the dodge effects to minor/master traits across the lines, while increasing their effects.

Stop Drop and Roll also heals you but no condition removal (same as EA heal minus condition removal)

TGSlasher.1458:

Stop Drop and Roll also heals you but no condition removal (same as EA heal minus condition removal)

That trait is pretty obsolete compared to other sources of condition removal.

Edit: Er, I totally misread that. Honestly, the water attunement dodge from EA is almost good enough to be its own trait. Fire and air would need a lot of help, and earth would just need a little tweaking.

From what I can tell, fresh air was introduced to reduce the need to go 30 deep into arcana, and at least from a pve perspective I think it worked. I’ve recently come back to the class and I’m finding fresh air 20/30/0/10/10 scepter/dagger to be very strong. The only thing I really miss is the cleansing wave dodge roll.

But @OP I sort of agree with what you said about “making only using 1-2 attunements a viable option”, because for the most part, in the fresh air build, I’m almost always in fire and air, only infrequently switching into earth for the blast finishers and water for the condi clear.

But again this is all from a pve perspective. With the pvp condi meta the way it is, giving up swapping into water frequently and cleansing on dodge might not be viable.

You can’t go full offensive in your traitline (Fire and Air) because an ele survives through sustained healing (due to lowhealthpool) and boons (hence attunement dancing with Arcana trait is very beneficial). However, the ele’s weapon sets don’t have that much defensive capabilities other than healing which can be negated with too much CC, poison, and burst AND also requires investment in Healing Stat. Whereas other professions have high health pool, stealth, clones, a second health bar, and short CD invuln and evasive skills in their weapon sets and any of which I don’t think is dependent on any Stat at all. Thus, only pros and some with macros can manage to pull off Zerker Fresh Air Eles. The rest can find it really hard to survive without traiting for Water and Arcana.

Gallrvaghn.4921:

You can’t go full offensive in your traitline (Fire and Air) because an ele survives through sustained healing (due to lowhealthpool) and boons (hence attunement dancing with Arcana trait is very beneficial). However, the ele’s weapon sets don’t have that much defensive capabilities other than healing which can be negated with too much CC, poison, and burst AND also requires investment in Healing Stat. Whereas other professions have high health pool, stealth, clones, a second health bar, and short CD invuln and evasive skills in their weapon sets and any of which I don’t think is dependent on any Stat at all. Thus, only pros and some with macros can manage to pull off Zerker Fresh Air Eles. The rest can find it really hard to survive without traiting for Water and Arcana.

Agreed, but what does the clones have anything to do with suvivability? They are condition applier/shatter fodder, they don’t add anything to defense.

That being said, arcana indeed totally overshadows the 4 other trees. Not only are the best trait there, but those are also not attunement specific (they vary with the attunements, they don’t stop working because “wrong attunement”). The other trees mostly force you to chose between benefiting from your traits or benefiting from the different attunement skills. Neither option seems good. I’m not sure a breakdown of EA in specific trees would solve the problem. This particular trait would not overshadow the other anymore, but the sheer versatility of the tree compared to the others would still be there. I would rather see replaced most of the “get/do XX when in YY attunement”, in favor of attunement wide or when-switching traits. Those would make the best of attunement versatility.

I’m running 0/0/20/30/20 right now and not having that last 10 in arcane is too painful. I run the 20 into earth though for granting stability on switching to earth attunement for my allies which is one of the most valuable things I can offer to my group in WvW. I would like to see a buff to attunement recharge rates and our health pool to create build diversity in the elementalist. Perhaps combining some of the condition removal traits in water to allow for that without having to commit 30 into water would be helpful so we don’t get locked into one cookie-cutter support build, as all support staff eles I know are married to 30 in water as well.

You lose too much when speccing in other trees and gain very little in return compared to speccing into Arcana and Water as well. These two trait trees have a great variety of traits which are useful regardless of weapon set. Add to that the benefits of attunement recharge rate reduction and healing stat which is sort of a must for ele survivability.

Fire, Air, and Earth are either too gimmicky, focused on underused utilities, only effective in their respective element (which goes against the profession’s mechanic itself and can hurt you quite a lot if you have not invested in Arcana for faster attunement swapping), and very underwhelming/not worth it. I know some people can pull it off, but there still is something wrong if the general ele community avoids these trait lines like the plague. Air tree now shines quite a bit with the new Fresh Air trait. But when you look at it, the reason why it’s useful is because you can constantly swap back into Air hence burst more frequently since you are basically bypassing the attunement swap limitation, which in fact further justifies how awful the attunement recharge rate mechanic is and how it gimps the ele as a profession. I hope other traitlines receive a well thought out change too with regards to the effectiveness of the traits based on attunement or an improvement in the overall synergy of underused traits.

While with other professions, I can basically have fun experimenting with builds and the choices for each trait line makes me go like: “Which should I pick? This is an interesting trait but this one seems good too.” Whereas with an ele, that doesn’t happen much.

You guys are acting like some of the Gaurds screaming “AH or nothing!!”.
Seriously experiment a little. 30 in arcana is definitely not a must. You can even get by with just 5 on arcana and do just as well if not better. It’s all about synergy between your traits and gear choices.

My current build I’m only running 10 on arcana and I love it and have no problems surviving and dealing out dmg. In spvp and wvw. I think everyone is too stuck on their ways of the pre nerf feast ele cookie cutter build.

When you take 20 points from arcana it allows you to dabble in the other trait lines and pick up some nice perks that were and are often over looked. It just takes a little more finesse to play with only 5-10 on arcana. Rather than just mashing through your attunements and skills like a mad man/woman.

On the topic of pvp, I hate how limited ele feels though with not being able to get to say, a good wvw stat set without going basically full glass.

Treborlavok.3504:

You guys are acting like some of the Gaurds screaming “AH or nothing!!”.
Seriously experiment a little. 30 in arcana is definitely not a must. You can even get by with just 5 on arcana and do just as well if not better. It’s all about synergy between your traits and gear choices.

My current build I’m only running 10 on arcana and I love it and have no problems surviving and dealing out dmg. In spvp and wvw. I think everyone is too stuck on their ways of the pre nerf feast ele cookie cutter build.

When you take 20 points from arcana it allows you to dabble in the other trait lines and pick up some nice perks that were and are often over looked. It just takes a little more finesse to play with only 5-10 on arcana. Rather than just mashing through your attunements and skills like a mad man/woman.

On the topic of pvp, I hate how limited ele feels though with not being able to get to say, a good wvw stat set without going basically full glass.

Unfortunately, Arcana is basically a mathematical must-have for the ele; people are less likely to care about your “finesse” in the long run when it’s numerically inferior to other builds. You kitten almost every stat the ele has by having less Arcana, since almost all of our important stat boosts/effects are in some way linked to attunement switching, e.g. healing, protection/might/fury uptime, sigil effects (we have no weapon swap), and the necessary self/aoe buffing from the Elemental Attunement trait.

The one (highly debatable) exception to this is Fresh Air builds, but even those often have at least a modest investment into Arcana. Burst builds are one-trick-ponies for eles more than any other profession, because so much of our survivability is tied to our trait allocation.

The only time 30 arcana was mathematically superior was the pre nerf dd build. Since dd is pretty useless ATM, 30 arcana is a waste.

Especially if your running scepter or staff.

Like you said and what I was also referring to, the fresh air build(s) give us the ability to break free from the stigma of needing 30 in arcana to survive and be superior. Even running dd with FA you only want a max of 10 in arcana.

Now it should be said that it your not running 30 in air then your not doing it right. Bth, zephyrs boon and a multitude of other air traits are too good to pass up.

The sad part about all of this is the inability to constantly and efficiently clear the kittened meta of condi builds without having to trait too far into water.

Treborlavok.3504:

The only time 30 arcana was mathematically superior was the pre nerf dd build. Since dd is pretty useless ATM, 30 arcana is a waste.

Especially if your running scepter or staff.

Like you said and what I was also referring to, the fresh air build(s) give us the ability to break free from the stigma of needing 30 in arcana to survive and be superior. Even running dd with FA you only want a max of 10 in arcana.

Now it should be said that it your not running 30 in air then your not doing it right. Bth, zephyrs boon and a multitude of other air traits are too good to pass up.

The sad part about all of this is the inability to constantly and efficiently clear the kittened meta of condi builds without having to trait too far into water.

Eles don’t even have a place in this meta; their pre-nerf status wouldn’t have changed that, and neither does Fresh Air. An ele’s usefulness to itself and its team is maximized by high investment in Arcana and to some degree Water.

On another note, the Fresh Air update did very little to encourage trait allocations that don’t include high Arcana investment, because that trait is designed for only one thing, and not everybody wants to do that. It also doesn’t solve the problem of our other attunements having abysmal base recharges, meaning if you are not running Fresh Air, at least 20 in Arcana, or both, you are essentially doing it wrong.

The only thing worth going into arcana is for attunement boons.

EA is overrated and your losing out on other traits going 30 into arcana. THe only time I would go 30 In to arcana is with a bunker, no dps full on team buff ele running staff or d/f.

Break free of the mold!

But in the end ele is sub par vs the rest of the meta. Mes/thief/war/necro are the top classes atm. Even guards/ring/eng have been out doing ele on every aspect. As its been stated numerous times all over this forum… Ele has to do 20x the work to achieve something any other class can do In 1 button press.

Things will change but until then, know that playing an ele takes more finesse and more work. But in the end it’s more satisfying when you pull out ahead of everyone else.

Some ppl want it easy and want to smash buttons… Go play a thief or war. Ill keep my ele and keep burning you down

Treborlavok.3504:

The only thing worth going into arcana is for attunement boons.

EA is overrated and your losing out on other traits going 30 into arcana. THe only time I would go 30 In to arcana is with a bunker, no dps full on team buff ele running staff or d/f.

Break free of the mold!

But in the end ele is sub par vs the rest of the meta. Mes/thief/war/necro are the top classes atm. Even guards/ring/eng have been out doing ele on every aspect. As its been stated numerous times all over this forum… Ele has to do 20x the work to achieve something any other class can do In 1 button press.

Things will change but until then, know that playing an ele takes more finesse and more work. But in the end it’s more satisfying when you pull out ahead of everyone else.

Some ppl want it easy and want to smash buttons… Go play a thief or war. Ill keep my ele and keep burning you down

Fire and Earth are next to useless traitlines; a sigil of battle on a 0/20/0/20/30 or 0/25/0/15/30 trait setup gives you durability and loads of might stacks; it easily compares to Fresh Air in terms of damage output if you gear properly and doesn’t sacrifice all the survivability. Your team play is also enhanced with aoe healing and boons.

Breaking free of the mold would involve having at least some variety when it comes to other options; the only other real option is Fresh Air, which pales in overall usefulness. As it is, playing an ele doesn’t really require that much finesse, but then again nothing in this game really does.

I respectfully disagree.

Training in earth and going with a signet build is extremely versatile and useful when traited to also share auras.

Fire can work well also but I think it’s a waste to go more than 10 into fire for any build.

Fresh air Is also a build that works well with multiple trait setups. Including a big boost in toughness while having at least 10 into earth.

You can might stack with any class with ease and you can do it easily with ele with a variety of trait builds.

I still haven’t heard or seen a good reason to continue to run 30 into arcana. I have a few builds I like to run that require either 5-10 into arcana and that’s it. Then you have your classic 30 arcana builds that still do OK but I feel like they can and are being replaced slowly. The sooner ppl realize they don’t need 30 on arcana the better.

:)

Treborlavok.3504:

I still haven’t heard or seen a good reason to continue to run 30 into arcana. I have a few builds I like to run that require either 5-10 into arcana and that’s it. Then you have your classic 30 arcana builds that still do OK but I feel like they can and are being replaced slowly. The sooner ppl realize they don’t need 30 on arcana the better.

:)

For me, the main benefit of 30 in arcana is the attunement CD reduction. The class design makes us so much powerful when not sitting in one element, that not taking the CD reduction is a serious drawback. It is in no way necessary, but we do lose a lot by not taking it.
Plus, the fact that all arcana traits benefit all attunements is a nice cherry on top.

I’m on my phone or id be quoting you guys/gals to Make it easier to follow our discussions.

But, I agree to a degree. Having attunement cd is ease and comfort for us but a lot of ppls argument is that EA is a must. When it really isn’t. I agree that we need some points in arcana. But definitely not 30 and I think 20 is pushing it. At 20 your mainly doing it for the cd. That’s why I feel those extra 10 points are better allocated in another trait line. A few seconds longer in said attunement means nothing in a good match up.

Some where along the way I feel like ppl got stuck mindlessly smashing buttons and ripping through attunements. Now thakittens not as effective and they don’t have to smash through everything they’re out of their comfort zone and have to basically learn a new play style.

I look at the ele, fps shooter references coming, as being able to fulfill three roles.

1. Bunker down, bust out that tripod and lay down that ammo kit and support your team!

2. D/d 30 arcana run and gun with your full auto spray and pray aaggggghhhhhh!

3. Move around and evaluate the situation, take your time, keep your distance, line up your headshot, take the shot.

Ppl are used to #2…. #1 is pretty boring but I think any bunker class is boring… #3 is what I love to do. I’ve never gone and never will go full zerk glass cannon. I’m currently sitting on a build I absolutely love to “snipe” with. It’s also extremely survivable and I can go 2v1 and sometimes more depending on the classes I’m facing. That’s where I feel the finesse comes in. Knowing when/how/who to attack instead of running in guns a blazing.

Treborlavok.3504:

I respectfully disagree.

Training in earth and going with a signet build is extremely versatile and useful when traited to also share auras.

Fire can work well also but I think it’s a waste to go more than 10 into fire for any build.

Fresh air Is also a build that works well with multiple trait setups. Including a big boost in toughness while having at least 10 into earth.

You can might stack with any class with ease and you can do it easily with ele with a variety of trait builds.

I still haven’t heard or seen a good reason to continue to run 30 into arcana. I have a few builds I like to run that require either 5-10 into arcana and that’s it. Then you have your classic 30 arcana builds that still do OK but I feel like they can and are being replaced slowly. The sooner ppl realize they don’t need 30 on arcana the better.

:)

Signet builds have no advantage, especially in a stun/fear heavy meta for various reasons, with the only real gain you have being from potential aoe stability, which cannot break stuns and must be used preemptively against such stuns. It also necessitates close-range combat if you wish for your allies to benefit from the trait. You lack any significant condition removal if you bring Signet, and waste potential healing if you don’t. The only aura you will be sharing with that kind of build is Fire Shield, which is minimally useful as the might stacking/burning are unreliable and in order to trait it to share boons as well you must further spread your traits, decreasing your inherent boon duration and overall damage output. On top of this, eles do not capitalize on the condi damage gained from Earth investment, nor on the passive from Signet of Fire, as condi eles (assuming they were viable to begin with) lack any real precision-based traits/abilities to complement such a build.

Fire accomplishes nothing a blast finisher in a fire field won’t do.

Fresh Air is good at pushing dps, but it again lacks survivability (especially in this meta) because traiting that high into air removes your options for condition removal except for ether renewal, because the utilities for ideal damage when using Fresh Air are not conducive to survival. In the end it doesn’t put out enough to justify sacrificing the survivability, and it won’t until the Arcana line is reworked along with Evasive Arcana.

The reason you should be running at least 20 Arcana is numbers. Numbers don’t care about breaking the mold; they are about efficiency, and eles lack efficiency due to inherent design flaws.

Treborlavok.3504:

But, I agree to a degree. Having attunement cd is ease and comfort for us but a lot of ppls argument is that EA is a must. When it really isn’t. I agree that we need some points in arcana. But definitely not 30 and I think 20 is pushing it. At 20 your mainly doing it for the cd. That’s why I feel those extra 10 points are better allocated in another trait line. A few seconds longer in said attunement means nothing in a good match up.

In a good matchup, having access to more of your skills is so incredibly crucial when you lack the advantage of being able to switch weapons and change your basic range. Adding survivability, damage and boon duration on top of that is just a win/win situation.

Some where along the way I feel like ppl got stuck mindlessly smashing buttons and ripping through attunements. Now thakittens not as effective and they don’t have to smash through everything they’re out of their comfort zone and have to basically learn a new play style.

You severely underestimate much of the ele community if you think we are mindlessly mashing our attunements on recharge. Our other builds are just numerically inferior when you take into account potential damage vs survivability vs team utility.

1. Bunker down, bust out that tripod and lay down that ammo kit and support your team!

2. D/d 30 arcana run and gun with your full auto spray and pray aaggggghhhhhh!

3. Move around and evaluate the situation, take your time, keep your distance, line up your headshot, take the shot.

Ppl are used to #2…. #1 is pretty boring but I think any bunker class is boring… #3 is what I love to do. I’ve never gone and never will go full zerk glass cannon. I’m currently sitting on a build I absolutely love to “snipe” with. It’s also extremely survivable and I can go 2v1 and sometimes more depending on the classes I’m facing. That’s where I feel the finesse comes in. Knowing when/how/who to attack instead of running in guns a blazing.

Your analysis of people who use 30 arcana is shallow and a pretty inaccurate description of what goes on with high level elementalist play, and if you can consistently 2v1 people with a build that “snipes” as you say then you are playing against inexperienced players with little knowledge of how your damage is applied.

Treborlavok.3504:

I respectfully disagree.

Training in earth and going with a signet build is extremely versatile and useful when traited to also share auras.

No. It lacks the 10 or 20 points needed to get Written in Stone. Plus the range on Powerful Auras is rubbish.

Leuca.5732:

Treborlavok.3504:

But, I agree to a degree. Having attunement cd is ease and comfort for us but a lot of ppls argument is that EA is a must. When it really isn’t. I agree that we need some points in arcana. But definitely not 30 and I think 20 is pushing it. At 20 your mainly doing it for the cd. That’s why I feel those extra 10 points are better allocated in another trait line. A few seconds longer in said attunement means nothing in a good match up.

In a good matchup, having access to more of your skills is so incredibly crucial when you lack the advantage of being able to switch weapons and change your basic range. Adding survivability, damage and boon duration on top of that is just a win/win situation.

Some where along the way I feel like ppl got stuck mindlessly smashing buttons and ripping through attunements. Now thakittens not as effective and they don’t have to smash through everything they’re out of their comfort zone and have to basically learn a new play style.

You severely underestimate much of the ele community if you think we are mindlessly mashing our attunements on recharge. Our other builds are just numerically inferior when you take into account potential damage vs survivability vs team utility.

1. Bunker down, bust out that tripod and lay down that ammo kit and support your team!

2. D/d 30 arcana run and gun with your full auto spray and pray aaggggghhhhhh!

3. Move around and evaluate the situation, take your time, keep your distance, line up your headshot, take the shot.

Ppl are used to #2…. #1 is pretty boring but I think any bunker class is boring… #3 is what I love to do. I’ve never gone and never will go full zerk glass cannon. I’m currently sitting on a build I absolutely love to “snipe” with. It’s also extremely survivable and I can go 2v1 and sometimes more depending on the classes I’m facing. That’s where I feel the finesse comes in. Knowing when/how/who to attack instead of running in guns a blazing.

Your analysis of people who use 30 arcana is shallow and a pretty inaccurate description of what goes on with high level elementalist play, and if you can consistently 2v1 people with a build that “snipes” as you say then you are playing against inexperienced players with little knowledge of how your damage is applied.

you jumping to conclusions on who im facing is ignorant on your part. yes good competition can be far and few between. But being on a t1 wvwvw server ive come up against multiple top notch players. Ive also seen some complete garbage players, in both spvp and wvwvw.

You just need to face the facts that in this current meta you cant just sustain anymore and be successful. You need a well balanced high dmg burst build to be viable atm. With that being said, 30 in air is a must for fresh air now and 30 in arcana is over kill.

Like i said earlier, like the guardian class screaming about AH, people are saying arcana or bust!

I actually think my description of the MAJORITY of D/D eles out there is pretty accurate. Seeing as, like you stated, not many ppl can play the class successfully and thus think being able to smash through your attunements and skills is the way to do it. People jump on the bandwagon of the best builds all the time. Another fps ref, just like in bf3 when ppl jumped onto the usas/frags, famas/supp/fg, aek/hb/fg, etc. Keeping on that ref, theres very few ppl who can run around and be successful as a recon sniper. That slower paced burst gameplay, ppl seem to shy away from here.

Curing/maintaining condi is easy with a FA build using ER and the proper gear. And if a condi heavy build is giving you problems just throw CF on your bar for the sake of being able to clear 3 extra condis. Relying on rolling in water with EA isnt reliable enough to cure heavy condi builds.

Plus any smart player will keep you locked down and away from them and burn you down if youre running DD. The fact that our stun breaks are on such a large CD puts you at a huge disadvantage playing DD. S/d s/f gives you to ability to keep dmg on them while staying at any range(within 900 for most attacks).

Elidath.5679:

Agreed, but what does the clones have anything to do with suvivability? They are condition applier/shatter fodder, they don’t add anything to defense.

Retal, Confusion, Invul – Then you get to them confusing the target giving you enough time to re-position, heal and attack. The clones are VERY helpful for that.

Treborlavok.3504:

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you jumping to conclusions on who im facing is ignorant on your part. yes good competition can be far and few between. But being on a t1 wvwvw server ive come up against multiple top notch players. Ive also seen some complete garbage players, in both spvp and wvwvw.

It’s not really ignorant; if you are playing hotjoin then the likelihood if you 2v1ing inexperienced players is high if you have some degree of experience yourself. I can pretty much assume however that you are not 2v1ing in TPvP with a Fresh Air build if you are facing people who know how it works.

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You just need to face the facts that in this current meta you cant just sustain anymore and be successful. You need a well balanced high dmg burst build to be viable atm. With that being said, 30 in air is a must for fresh air now and 30 in arcana is over kill.

Like i said earlier, like the guardian class screaming about AH, people are saying arcana or bust!

Nobody is arguing against the fact that eles have had their damage and survivability nerfed quite a bit. Unfortunately, Fresh Air is not enough compensation, because it doesn’t really accomplish something another profession cannot do better, which is a main reason that despite that large change to the ele, they are largely obsolete in this meta.

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I actually think my description of the MAJORITY of D/D eles out there is pretty accurate. Seeing as, like you stated, not many ppl can play the class successfully and thus think being able to smash through your attunements and skills is the way to do it. People jump on the bandwagon of the best builds all the time. Another fps ref, just like in bf3 when ppl jumped onto the usas/frags, famas/supp/fg, aek/hb/fg, etc. Keeping on that ref, theres very few ppl who can run around and be successful as a recon sniper. That slower paced burst gameplay, ppl seem to shy away from here.

I’m not speaking about the majority of ele players, because they can be lumped in the majority of players in general. Medium tier eles don’t take much skill to use just like any other class, and if Fresh Air was really that much more efficient it would have become the bandwagon, as you say. The problem is that it’s too slow-paced, and the ele needs to have as many reactive tools as possible to survive in the current tate of the game.

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Curing/maintaining condi is easy with a FA build using ER and the proper gear. And if a condi heavy build is giving you problems just throw CF on your bar for the sake of being able to clear 3 extra condis. Relying on rolling in water with EA isnt reliable enough to cure heavy condi builds.

No, it’s not; any experienced condition applier knows to stop applying when you are casting ER unless you are being targeted by multiple people. If that person gets used to your signet build quickly enough, you are going down without having done anything meaningful, because with that build you lack innate power and your condition damage cannot match theirs.

The point of rolling into water attunement is not to clear all of your conditions; it’s meant to maintain some level of stability after clearing the bulk.

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Plus any smart player will keep you locked down and away from them and burn you down if youre running DD. The fact that our stun breaks are on such a large CD puts you at a huge disadvantage playing DD. S/d s/f gives you to ability to keep dmg on them while staying at any range(within 900 for most attacks).

And any smart D/D player will know what their opponent is capable of and either avoid key CC or call allies over to assist. D/D is still the most mobile set eles have, with 3 possible gap closers, multiple hard aoe CCs and fairly reliable condition removal. I’m just curious as to how you can keep that “locked down.” If your problem is sticking to your opponent, they have either completely specced you or you’re doing it wrong.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Retal, Confusion, Invul – Then you get to them confusing the target giving you enough time to re-position, heal and attack. The clones are VERY helpful for that.

I was responding to:

Whereas other professions have high health pool, stealth, clones, a second health bar, and short CD invuln and evasive skills in their weapon sets

Clones don’t have retal (only phantasms do, and it seems bugged).
Confusion: 1 stack on death isn’t defense. Shatter confusion come from the shatter. just ahving the clone don’t inflict any confusion.
Same for invu: the shatter is a defensive tool, not the clone in itself, and you can shatter phantasm too.
As for not distinguishing mesmer from his clones… does it really happen, ever? Against a good player, I mean. Clones are so obvious.
Clones, by their mere existence, don’t add any defense. A more correct sentence would have been “(…) high health pool, stealth, distorsion, a second heatlh bar (…)”
Mesmers do have strong defensive tool, but just creating clone isn’t one. Clones are resource. Like “initiative” isn’t a defense for the thief, it’s a resource used for defense.

With current targetting system it’s annoying to use single targetted skills (like lightning strike) on a real mesmer.

Also, before heavy condies overload, mesmers were a profession running zerk/zerk amulet with 20/20/0/0/30 aka “virtually no passive defense” yet they were more survivable than lots of other professions.

Elidath.5679:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Retal, Confusion, Invul – Then you get to them confusing the target giving you enough time to re-position, heal and attack. The clones are VERY helpful for that.

I was responding to:

Whereas other professions have high health pool, stealth, clones, a second health bar, and short CD invuln and evasive skills in their weapon sets

Clones don’t have retal (only phantasms do, and it seems bugged).
Confusion: 1 stack on death isn’t defense. Shatter confusion come from the shatter. just ahving the clone don’t inflict any confusion.
Same for invu: the shatter is a defensive tool, not the clone in itself, and you can shatter phantasm too.
As for not distinguishing mesmer from his clones… does it really happen, ever? Against a good player, I mean. Clones are so obvious.
Clones, by their mere existence, don’t add any defense. A more correct sentence would have been “(…) high health pool, stealth, distorsion, a second heatlh bar (…)”
Mesmers do have strong defensive tool, but just creating clone isn’t one. Clones are resource. Like “initiative” isn’t a defense for the thief, it’s a resource used for defense.

I was speaking from the F1-F4 skills, iMage gives Retal as well but we dont like to talk about iMage its the ugly child of the family and is a VERY useless Phantasm. I could call it an Offensive defense you can quite easily get some decent stacks on people and unless they are casuals that only like to burst they are more likely to stand off a bit to cleanse then to try and burst you.

You are forgetting that you will need Clones/Phantasms up to shatter them, So it depends on HOW they are used for them to be offensive or defensive.

It happens alot, You take decoy, DE and dodge in stealth you create a clone that will normally get attacked. We have plenty of ways to avoid attacks. Though some times we WANT to be hit iCounter for example.

Where is this 2nd health bar?

We suffer because of what we can do when it comes to movement in and out of combat having to take a Focus with us, even if we dont use them as part of our build simply so we have access to Swiftness. ANY class decides to run we have very little we can do and if we want to run, we have to use as much of our stealth as possible and hope for the best.

Now i can totally accept that, i mean we shouldnt be amazing at everything, and i think its something that ALL classes should have – a one weakness

haviz.1340:

With current targetting system it’s annoying to use single targetted skills (like lightning strike) on a real mesmer.

Ctrl+T is your friend

haviz.1340:

Also, before heavy condies overload, mesmers were a profession running zerk/zerk amulet with 20/20/0/0/30 aka “virtually no passive defense” yet they were more survivable than lots of other professions.

I haven’t seen anyone denying that here.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I was speaking from the F1-F4 skills

I noticed. I was commenting on the clones as defense. Shatters aren’t clone. Shatter use clones. So when talking about mesmer’s defense, clones aren’t it. Shatters are.

You are forgetting that you will need Clones/Phantasms up to shatter them, So it depends on HOW they are used for them to be offensive or defensive.

Notice the part when I say clones are a resource? I don’t think I forget anything.

We have plenty of ways to avoid attacks.

Yes we do. But clones in themselves aren’t one, except in very rare occasion (like blocking a backstab with a clone). The fuel don’t get you anywhere, the car does. Clones are fuel.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Where is this 2nd health bar?

On the necro. The initial post was about all classes’ defenses. Mesmer one being depicted as “clone”. Which it isn’t. Lots of invul/dodge/reflect/vigor/stealth is, sometime using clones.

TL;DR: mesmer defense is good but summing it up as “clones” isn’t really adequate. Having sidetracked this thread too much with this one irrelevant comment, I won’t speak about it anymore. Sorry for the hijack.

(relevant part of the post starts here)

Back to ele!
I was thinking, since attunement CD seems so important (at least to me), we could replace the arcana passive bonus to something still useful but less vital. Not all class stat is about CD: warrior get burst damage, ranger get pet stats. We could get something like this :
- each attunement has a naturally reduce CD compared to now (like 20 or 30 point in arcana? TBD);
- each attunement gets you the “on attunement” boon (the arcana trait would need to be replaced);
- arcana passive bonus: + attunement boon duration.
This way, attunement dancing is naturally more accessible (after all, it is the class mechanic) but it still get boosted by the trait line. You could get nice amount of protection for example with earth attunement, but not having it wouldn’t makes you ineffective.
It wouldn’t solve all the ele build problems, but I think it would makes investing less in arcana more viable.

Thoughts?

I think the class needs a WHOLE redesign. The weapons and skills are pretty awful with very little for an escape plan, the cool downs are to long, the traits are a mess. The damage is sup bar as well. I have 75% Crit damage and i am hitting for 500-700crit hits :/ Not quite sure why

Elidath.5679:

Ctrl+T is your friend

Decoy?

The #1 biggest issue for ele’s as a whole is being chained to arcana to reduce attune cool down.

The #1 biggest issue for staff ele’s specifically behind that is being chained to 20 arcana for blasting staff.

If we could change those two things by say reducing attune cool down by 40% base (then 1% per point) and increasing staff radii default to match blasting staff (replace blasting staff with another staff specific skill that isnt so critical)…. then we might get somewhere with real build diversity.

Yes, EA would still be powerful and still be a good reason to go 30 arcana…. but putting points into arcana won’t be required the way it is now for every staff build and almost every other build save for fresh air-scepter-spike build.

TGSlasher.1458:

Leuca.5732:

We should create a thread to brainstorm alternative effects you can gain from investing in Arcana, because Arcana’s necessity will never cease until we have a fixed attunement cd. On a different note, I’ve considered removing Evasive Arcana and moving the dodge effects to minor/master traits across the lines, while increasing their effects.

Stop Drop and Roll also heals you but no condition removal (same as EA heal minus condition removal)

Take it one step further and move the cleansing wave from EA into stop drop and roll and change EA in water to proc frozen burst instead. Then move EA down to master tier and create some new trait, maybe one that reduces cooldowns globally or something. Makes 0/30/0/20/20 nearly as durable as the old bunker but less predictable because you can cleanse in any attunement, might have to increase the cooldown drastically though or decrease the healing amount.

Solo.9027:

TGSlasher.1458:

Leuca.5732:

We should create a thread to brainstorm alternative effects you can gain from investing in Arcana, because Arcana’s necessity will never cease until we have a fixed attunement cd. On a different note, I’ve considered removing Evasive Arcana and moving the dodge effects to minor/master traits across the lines, while increasing their effects.

Stop Drop and Roll also heals you but no condition removal (same as EA heal minus condition removal)

Take it one step further and move the cleansing wave from EA into stop drop and roll and change EA in water to proc frozen burst instead. Then move EA down to master tier and create some new trait, maybe one that reduces cooldowns globally or something. Makes 0/30/0/20/20 nearly as durable as the old bunker but less predictable because you can cleanse in any attunement, might have to increase the cooldown drastically though or decrease the healing amount.

That’s what needs to happen. This is one of the best ideas I’ve seen so far. I agree with everyone that our base attunement cd is horrendous and outright laughable at times. Though we can make it work, it takes more to make it work than every single other prof in the game.

I agree that they need to reduce out base attunement swap cd by 30-40%… Keep the attunement cd in arcana to make dd even more viable. But give the arcana line more to work with to make dd synergies better as a whole. Something with dagger skill cd etc. since going into arcana only effects boon and attunement cd, we lose a lot not being able to go into an actual stat trait line. Then give us some better options in the other trait lines… FA is a nice touch and works great atm. But fire is lacking and water atm lacks something to make it stand out. What solo said would help the water line out a lot here. Earth is ok atm but really limited to signets. ATM unless your running a signet build your not going more than 10 into earth.

I highly doubt were going to see anything anytime soon. We might not see anything like this ever but who knows.

It’s be nice if we could, like others have said, have more synergy between attunements and having attunements fill actual roles rather than skills being spread out over all the attuents.

covenn.7165:

The #1 biggest issue for ele’s as a whole is being chained to arcana to reduce attune cool down.

The #1 biggest issue for staff ele’s specifically behind that is being chained to 20 arcana for blasting staff.

If we could change those two things by say reducing attune cool down by 40% base (then 1% per point) and increasing staff radii default to match blasting staff (replace blasting staff with another staff specific skill that isnt so critical)…. then we might get somewhere with real build diversity.

Yes, EA would still be powerful and still be a good reason to go 30 arcana…. but putting points into arcana won’t be required the way it is now for every staff build and almost every other build save for fresh air-scepter-spike build.

+1