eles need buffed

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Posted by: Axl.8924

Axl.8924

I was messing around and their survivability is a mess.

I was doing everythign in my power in maguma and i was getting frustrated i died like 21 times and got like 11-12 monster kills.They are sooo squishy and i had earth build, i mean jesus.

Give their protection and downed state some serious survivability buffs please?

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Posted by: mygamingid.5816

mygamingid.5816

Not sure of the spec you were running or how you were geared, but you can trait and gear Eles for a lot better sustain. You just need to figure out how much damage you’re willing to give up.

The ultimate in cheap sustain condi gear is Dire. You can buy a whole set of Exotic Dire with dungeon tokens. It’ll be safe in any open world areas and good for WvW. I’ve come around to the belief that everyone should have a set of Dire around.

Spec Fire 1-1-2, Earth 2-1-2, and Tempest 3-3-1. Use Signet of Fire and Signet of Earth, plus whatever works best for you in the third Utility slot. I recommend Glyph of Elemental Power in open world. Use Glyph of Elementals for your Elite.

Use Smoldering & Malice Sigils on your weapons, Undead Runes on your armor, and Chrysocola Gems on your trinkets and backpiece. Use Dagger/Warhorn or Scepter/Warhorn – forget Staff.

In combat, you’ll stay in Fire and go crazy. Use Signet of Fire and Overload Fire every chance you get, then prioritize your highest condi damage attacks after that.

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Posted by: Axl.8924

Axl.8924

See my issue was:I was trying to solo enemies and ended up dying 99% of the time.I was air/arcane and tempest line with tempest shield fresh air build(not bolt to the heart) and i went with earth line for extra defense.

I was messing around with dagger/dagger build using earthquake and wind attack to knock down enemies and run past em.

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Posted by: The Mighty Bellegar.4501

The Mighty Bellegar.4501

Use both of the Summon Elemental skills. They are a DPS loss but having 2 meatshields means that you will essentially never die except to AoE damage. You can easily solo champions with a Minor Earth Ele for tanking and a Major Water Ele for a 7k heal every 15 seconds.

(edited by The Mighty Bellegar.4501)

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Posted by: Sifu.9745

Sifu.9745

1. Use Staff!
2. Get Celestial gear if possible, if not try to mix the stats of your equipment to get something similar to Celestial.
3. Take Fire, Water and Tempest, or Fire Earth and Tempest. Could be Fire, Water and Arcane, just avoid Air. But you can go trough even with Air.

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Posted by: Azel.4786

Azel.4786

Eles have a lot of survivability in PvE, but has was mentioned above, you need to figure out how much damage you are willing to give up for it.

I ran the good old D/D cele ele build and have no trouble surviving eighths basic might stacking rotation of the build (I.e., Fire - Earth - Water - Air - repeat), running Water 1-1-1, Arcane 2-3-1 and Tempest I think is 1-2-3.

Swapping out tempest for fire can be done for added damage (and not screwing your rotation with overloads, but sometimes I just don’t want to work and do an air overload for AoE against raptors.

The problem is that I take longer to kill things and am less tanks than say an Engi, DH, etc.

Hoping that Weaver will help with this

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Posted by: AliamRationem.5172

AliamRationem.5172

I was messing around and their survivability is a mess.

I was doing everythign in my power in maguma and i was getting frustrated i died like 21 times and got like 11-12 monster kills.They are sooo squishy and i had earth build, i mean jesus.

Give their protection and downed state some serious survivability buffs please?

Hi! We talked a lot about this in game. You’re frustrated. I know. But let’s be honest here. You showed me your gear and your first problem is that you’re using a random assortment of low level gear. It isn’t fair to judge the class based upon woefully inadequate gear going up against the toughest open world content available.

You only had 1800 power, <40% crit, ~190% crit damage, and only a tiny bit of toughness and vitality. To put it in perspective, even a full celestial tanky survival build would have about 300 more power with higher crit rate, higher crit damage, a good amount of condi damage, half again as much health, and a ton of toughness besides! You’re trying to do this with basically no offense and no survivability on your gear. Don’t be discouraged! This will get better!

Your second problem, obviously, is that you’re new to the class, you don’t know the first thing about builds, and you haven’t had any time yet with decent gear to become comfortable with your skills. Don’t expect the world when you haven’t had a chance to practice with even semi-decent gear yet.

I don’t mean this as a criticism. Believe me. When I first tried ele I had similar results: dying to trash pulls I had no issue with on my thief or necro. And I had the benefit of exotic gear! But I can assure you that the class is far from broken and quite capable of handling anything HoT throws at it.

Unfortunately, since you are EU I was unable to go with you and help you figure things out. Maybe someone who is on EU can help?

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Posted by: Mercurias.1826

Mercurias.1826

Ele and Engie probably have the highest difficulty curve in the game. They require a lot of active movement and knowledge of your class, your build, and appropriate gear. In return, they have versatility and survivability other builds would kill for.

I popped into HoT with my Elementalist to test. My old build is extremely outdated, but I could still blast things well enough to handle combat with my old Cleric’s gear.

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Posted by: Axl.8924

Axl.8924

I got a question how come D/d isn’t meta? i was messing around with D/d and it has fairly good cc and mobility, especially number 5 for air and earth number 5 cc.

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Posted by: Warrost.4895

Warrost.4895

I got a question how come D/d isn’t meta? i was messing around with D/d and it has fairly good cc and mobility, especially number 5 for air and earth number 5 cc.

Qtfy

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

I was messing around and their survivability is a mess.

I was doing everythign in my power in maguma and i was getting frustrated i died like 21 times and got like 11-12 monster kills.They are sooo squishy and i had earth build, i mean jesus.

Give their protection and downed state some serious survivability buffs please?

Ele does not need buffs for PVE, I pretty much aoe slap packs with my ele. The tactic i use with Scepter focus for example is to round up the pack, then lay down all my big hits and condy then switch to earth. With earth + focus and a bit of movement i get very little damage, and can use heal if i take a spike. Also, imagine you had a trait that said ‘reduce all damage by 10% and increase damage by x% – well that’s what you get for a few copper with food and utility buffs – always use

Also bear in mind PVE metas are skewed by raiders who are aiming for optimal dps and prioritize dps over everything. The build you should aim for is a build that is firstly viable and then FUN for you. Then tweak between heal/tank/burst based on your targeted style of play (aggressive/tanky/love moving a lot etc)


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

I was messing around and their survivability is a mess.

I was doing everythign in my power in maguma and i was getting frustrated i died like 21 times and got like 11-12 monster kills.They are sooo squishy and i had earth build, i mean jesus.

Give their protection and downed state some serious survivability buffs please?

Ele does not need buffs for PVE, I pretty much aoe slap packs with my ele. The tactic i use with Scepter focus for example is to round up the pack, then lay down all my big hits and condy then switch to earth. With earth + focus and a bit of movement i get very little damage, and can use heal if i take a spike. Also, imagine you had a trait that said ‘reduce all damage by 10% and increase damage by x% – well that’s what you get for a few copper with food and utility buffs – always use

Also bear in mind PVE metas are skewed by raiders who are aiming for optimal dps and prioritize dps over everything. The build you should aim for is a build that is firstly viable and then FUN for you. Then tweak between heal/tank/burst based on your targeted style of play (aggressive/tanky/love moving a lot etc)

Pve raids has comply messed up ele as a class as well as its elite spec of tempest. Making pve raids have its own balancing alone from the rest of the game would fix so much about gw2.

Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

Totally agree with this ^^. making a change to ‘balance’ a class that only positively impacts a tiny part of the game, and negatively affects everywhere else is not smart. For me Mmorpg’s are at their best where there is a enough slack in the game that everyone is free to experiment with builds they enjoy. Ironically if you look at modern card games like Elder Scrolls Legends you get to see that freedom in action; massive variance, players embracing and actively seeking out new ideas and combos – the direct appositive of the normalization and sligthly oppressive process raiding goes through (simplify roles, find a tactic, rote it to death, do it faster)


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

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Posted by: Etharzi Ors.7126

Etharzi Ors.7126

I strongly agree. Playing ele in WvW under all sorts of builds over a span of 300 hours without winning one single 1v1 battle (yes, seriously) made me think there was something wrong with my skill, but then I started playing PvP and getting my fair share of kills. About 1.0 K/D, not bad at all. Realized that the way ele’s are balanced in WvW is all sorts of kitteny. Getting enough survivability to survive any encounter at all means you’ll die anyways because your damage is closer to zero than your phone’s battery percent after a week of neglect. If WvW was treated to an acceptable standard of balance like PvP is, then the world (v world) would be a better place.

WvW standard for Ele seems to be.. deal out damage from behind the crowd, or get kittened. Those are your options.

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

Totally agree with this ^^. making a change to ‘balance’ a class that only positively impacts a tiny part of the game, and negatively affects everywhere else is not smart. For me Mmorpg’s are at their best where there is a enough slack in the game that everyone is free to experiment with builds they enjoy. Ironically if you look at modern card games like Elder Scrolls Legends you get to see that freedom in action; massive variance, players embracing and actively seeking out new ideas and combos – the direct appositive of the normalization and sligthly oppressive process raiding goes through (simplify roles, find a tactic, rote it to death, do it faster)

But there’s nothing to balance when you can slack. I mean, everything works in the open world. What’s to balance? Taking care if skill A works “better” than skill B? How do you even define “better” when both let you faceroll the content? Let alone how you measure it.

Back on the topic, I’ll disagree. Elementalist is a extremely fragile class when built for full damage. But that’s fine. It means there’s more to learn about playing the class, and it also makes playing one all the more satisfying when you learn it. Knowing that pretty much everything can down you and dancing around that line – that’s what the glass cannon ele is about. And that’s why I rarely play any other class.

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

‘slack’ or ‘slacker’ is a raider derogatory term that came about alongside the development of metrics in the noughties, it has nothing to do with Role Player Games, but unfortunately negative behaviors has seeped in as a result of competitiveness and optimal rote play that discards gameplay diversity over speed and efficiency. Glass cannon is perfectly valid build philosophy that is weighted extremely highly by raiders, its also a build that gets slaughtered in PVP – RPG is not just all about dps numbers for some. The benefit of ele is actually its extreme versatility – if you favor resilience, you can mix that in, if you favour pure ps then fill your wellies etc. If you try to shoe horn into 1 single play-style then you may be missing the point and opportunities for more diverse gameplay – explore and win is the most satisfying way to play imo.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

‘slack’ or ‘slacker’ is a raider derogatory term that came about alongside the development of metrics in the noughties, it has nothing to do with Role Player Games, but unfortunately negative behaviors has seeped in as a result of competitiveness and optimal rote play that discards gameplay diversity over speed and efficiency. Glass cannon is perfectly valid 1 build philosophy that is weighted extremely highly by raiders (and raid designers more importantly), its also a build that gets slaughtered in PVP – RPG is not just all about dps numbers for some. The benefit of ele is actually its extreme versatility – if you favor resilience, you can mix that in, if you favour pure dps then fill your wellies etc. If you try to shoe horn into 1 single play-style then you may be missing the point and opportunities for more diverse gameplay – explore and win is the most satisfying way to play imo.

So to OP, the best advice is surely to explore and experiment knowing that the class is ultimately perfectly viable so you are not heading towards a dead end.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

Totally agree with this ^^. making a change to ‘balance’ a class that only positively impacts a tiny part of the game, and negatively affects everywhere else is not smart. For me Mmorpg’s are at their best where there is a enough slack in the game that everyone is free to experiment with builds they enjoy. Ironically if you look at modern card games like Elder Scrolls Legends you get to see that freedom in action; massive variance, players embracing and actively seeking out new ideas and combos – the direct appositive of the normalization and sligthly oppressive process raiding goes through (simplify roles, find a tactic, rote it to death, do it faster)

But there’s nothing to balance when you can slack. I mean, everything works in the open world. What’s to balance? Taking care if skill A works “better” than skill B? How do you even define “better” when both let you faceroll the content? Let alone how you measure it.

Back on the topic, I’ll disagree. Elementalist is a extremely fragile class when built for full damage. But that’s fine. It means there’s more to learn about playing the class, and it also makes playing one all the more satisfying when you learn it. Knowing that pretty much everything can down you and dancing around that line – that’s what the glass cannon ele is about. And that’s why I rarely play any other class.

Your blinding your self badly not seeing the pediment your putting your self into with your point of view on this game and the world. If you have nothing to define what is good and your best argument is only to attk the argument it self then you get no where and nothing new or a fix comes of it. At best your just delaying and getting in the way of a real fix to a problem.

Raids are not part of GW2 they where added in for HoT and may end up dying with HoT. To try to keep pushing the game and Ele to raids only set of stander and game play is to cut the class off at its knees for real imaginative game play. Ele is dps so that all it should do is the WORST mind set. This dose not fit with GW2 and makes things like raids toxic to the game it self. In effect THIS mind set is why GW2 was made even GW1 was made to get over this mind set of one class one game play and only the best classes are usable.

GW2 needs a buff the separation of raids from all of the rest of gw2.

Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA

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Posted by: AliamRationem.5172

AliamRationem.5172

[quote=6735861;Jski.6180:]

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

Your blinding your self badly not seeing the pediment your putting your self into with your point of view on this game and the world. If you have nothing to define what is good and your best argument is only to attk the argument it self then you get no where and nothing new or a fix comes of it.

That’s my point. I see no problem.

Raids are not part of GW2 they where added in for HoT and may end up dying with HoT. To try to keep pushing the game and Ele to raids only set of stander and game play is to cut the class off at its knees for real imaginative game play. Ele is dps so that all it should do is the WORST mind set. This dose not fit with GW2 and makes things like raids toxic to the game it self. In effect THIS mind set is why GW2 was made even GW1 was made to get over this mind set of one class one game play and only the best classes are usable.

GW2 needs a buff the separation of raids from all of the rest of gw2.

Raids are completely, utterly irrelevant to the topic. Remove the raids, the role of ele in PvE remains unchanged. Also I never said ele should only do dps. All I said, in this current topic, is that even a full glass ele can survive the content just fine. It just takes practice to develop the necessary skills. But your irrational hatred for raids makes you misunderstand everything PvE-related.

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Posted by: Axl.8924

Axl.8924

What i see is the build i had:Fresh air is slightly more viable in tier 1 fractals.I was able to move around like crazy, but having to switch between staff and dagger dagger felt clunky.

In some moments the mobility of dagger was better than staff.Dagger for me was especially useful in snowblind because of all the enemies and dodging ice.

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

Your blinding your self badly not seeing the pediment your putting your self into with your point of view on this game and the world. If you have nothing to define what is good and your best argument is only to attk the argument it self then you get no where and nothing new or a fix comes of it.

That’s my point. I see no problem.

Raids are not part of GW2 they where added in for HoT and may end up dying with HoT. To try to keep pushing the game and Ele to raids only set of stander and game play is to cut the class off at its knees for real imaginative game play. Ele is dps so that all it should do is the WORST mind set. This dose not fit with GW2 and makes things like raids toxic to the game it self. In effect THIS mind set is why GW2 was made even GW1 was made to get over this mind set of one class one game play and only the best classes are usable.

GW2 needs a buff the separation of raids from all of the rest of gw2.

Raids are completely, utterly irrelevant to the topic. Remove the raids, the role of ele in PvE remains unchanged. Also I never said ele should only do dps. All I said, in this current topic, is that even a full glass ele can survive the content just fine. It just takes practice to develop the necessary skills. But your irrational hatred for raids makes you misunderstand everything PvE-related.

This is not hate to pve or even misunderstanding it this is about raids something that is comply different from GW2 pve system. Its also about many effects that ele use to have and has been destructively changes for the worst because of raids balancing.

Raids are not pve in GW2 they are insane events or set pieces that bench marks must be hit to enable viable wining conditions. Its on the lines of playing an intractable cut seen. They look cool but often forces classes into roll and over all pt comp into even more hard line set rolls. Raids are not so much player vs an environment but more about preforming a set of moves and thoughts who can do the moves the “right” way are rewarded. The player fills that “right” roll with builds and classes that are bleeding over to open world pve (the real gw2 pve) and wvw balancing. This is the problem. Its ok to have these set pieces fights they are good for story and often are fun the first few times but once they get in the way of real video game playing where you playing with real team work and vs real players it all falls apart.

Raids are not random every thing is known or at least will be known though videos (the web realty killed that fun for a lot of these things unlike old mmorpgs with raids). Its like a combat jumping puzzle. But like a jumping puzzle it should be self contend and NOT effect other things. Nor should there be a changes to the over all game to make it easier to fit that jumping puzzle.

Make raids its own balancing and keep open world pve / wvw alone. Revise all balancing changes that where made for raids only effects for open world pve and wvw. If the effects is to much in wvw / open world pve then fix it for THAT type of game stop keeping effects that are simply to much just to make them viable in raids. Torment is a good example of this it was “buffed” because mobs don’t move in raids all that much so it would not do high condi dmg but in wvw ppl move a lot and a real way to deal with it was to stop moving for a time to clear it. Now torment is effect a bleed but stronger. Confusion was “buffed” to do passive dmg when skill where not being used because mobs dont use skill that fast but players do and can not aoved the raw dmg of confusion because of this.

THIS is what is wrong with GW2 for ele and all other classes. Things are to buffed to work in raids and things to strong in raids are nerfed to the ground with out any though of what happens to every thing else.

Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

You have no kittening clue what raids are. “Insane events”? “Benchmarks”? Please…

There’s zero difference between raids and the rest of the PvE in terms of general roles and classes that can do them. You want to heal as shout warrior? You can. You want to dps as a power rev? You can. None of these would prevent you from successfully clearing the raid, as none of these would prevent you from completing any other PvE activity.

The raid meta isn’t something required, it is something efficient. And the thing is, it is efficient not just in raids. Like I said, remove the raids, nothing changes. Ele will still be used as dps, because this is where Ele fits best in a PvE group comp. And I do mean, nothing changes. Since the 5-5 mirror meta became a thing, not even the 10-man group size is a factor.

What you’re trying to blame on existence of raids is really just a people phenomenon. There will always be those who prefer efficiency. They were in the game long before raids, doing speed-clear dungeon runs. If ANet tomorrow decides to remove raids from the game, these same players will still be in the game and they will still be going for the efficient thing. That’s their way of playing. That’s what they like, that’s what they will keep on doing. And the thing is, their way tends to be more influential, because they make it look easy and this makes players want to play the same way.

Balance doesn’t matter, content doesn’t matter, there will always be meta, there will always be those who will find it and there will always be those who follow. That’s just how these games are played. And there’s nothing wrong with it. Who are you to say how other people are supposed to have their fun?

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

You have no kittening clue what raids are. “Insane events”? “Benchmarks”? Please…

There’s zero difference between raids and the rest of the PvE in terms of general roles and classes that can do them. You want to heal as shout warrior? You can. You want to dps as a power rev? You can. None of these would prevent you from successfully clearing the raid, as none of these would prevent you from completing any other PvE activity.

The raid meta isn’t something required, it is something efficient. And the thing is, it is efficient not just in raids. Like I said, remove the raids, nothing changes. Ele will still be used as dps, because this is where Ele fits best in a PvE group comp. And I do mean, nothing changes. Since the 5-5 mirror meta became a thing, not even the 10-man group size is a factor.

What you’re trying to blame on existence of raids is really just a people phenomenon. There will always be those who prefer efficiency. They were in the game long before raids, doing speed-clear dungeon runs. If ANet tomorrow decides to remove raids from the game, these same players will still be in the game and they will still be going for the efficient thing. That’s their way of playing. That’s what they like, that’s what they will keep on doing. And the thing is, their way tends to be more influential, because they make it look easy and this makes players want to play the same way.

Balance doesn’t matter, content doesn’t matter, there will always be meta, there will always be those who will find it and there will always be those who follow. That’s just how these games are played. And there’s nothing wrong with it. Who are you to say how other people are supposed to have their fun?

So in your view ppl do not play things or use effects because its not part of the meta not because they are weaker then other effects and tools? At what point do ppl stop using a needle to to clear a bolder over a pix axe?

Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

You have no kittening clue what raids are. “Insane events”? “Benchmarks”? Please…

There’s zero difference between raids and the rest of the PvE in terms of general roles and classes that can do them. You want to heal as shout warrior? You can. You want to dps as a power rev? You can. None of these would prevent you from successfully clearing the raid, as none of these would prevent you from completing any other PvE activity.

The raid meta isn’t something required, it is something efficient. And the thing is, it is efficient not just in raids. Like I said, remove the raids, nothing changes. Ele will still be used as dps, because this is where Ele fits best in a PvE group comp. And I do mean, nothing changes. Since the 5-5 mirror meta became a thing, not even the 10-man group size is a factor.

Is incorrect, raids focuses on optimising roles, it weeds out hybrid builds because it is inherently inefficient. in any other PVE you are free to experiment, splice in some healing if you wish, a pet because you like the flavour and utility etc etc.

Speed runs and ‘efficiency’ wasn’t a thing until it was promoted as a way to prolong the value of raids in late 2000’s where the only reason people played is loot as fast as possible. Its all good if you want to min-max, but min-max also means pick 1 build that is optimal, and that’s restrictive gameplay. if there was no requirement to min-max then just as you say many will still do it, but the peer pressure will be gone on others to follow suit, everyone is free to experiment with their own builds, which derives from the RPG board game roots – enjoying the gameplay for the sake of gameplay.

Imagine a game of Descent or another classic RPG Board game with a group of close friends at home; efficiency and min-maxing is not a goal of the group. Same deal with good PVE. Now compare that to raiding, the differences are crystal clear.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

Speed runs and ‘efficiency’ wasn’t a thing until it was promoted as a way to prolong the value of raids in late 2000’s where the only reason people played is loot as fast as possible. Its all good if you want to min-max, but min-max also means pick 1 build that is optimal, and that’s restrictive gameplay. if there was no requirement to min-max then just as you say many will still do it, but the peer pressure will be gone on others to follow suit, everyone is free to experiment with their own builds, which derives from the RPG board game roots – enjoying the gameplay for the sake of gameplay.

Imagine a game of Descent or another classic RPG Board game with a group of close friends at home; efficiency and min-maxing is not a goal of the group. Same deal with good PVE. Now compare that to raiding, the differences are crystal clear.

Speed runs existed even before MMOs became a thing. People used to speedrun Mephisto back in D2, over and over again for the loot. And to claim raids brought this mentality to GW2 is simply false. We had dungeon speed runs long before we had HoT.

And believe it or not, you can have fun min-maxing in a pen’n’paper session, or a board game. You cannot disregard the mentality of the min-max gamers because you don’t share it or you don’t understand it. For many players this is just part of the fun. You cannot tell people what should be fun for them. It’s up to them to decide. By the way, it’s not about the loot. It’s about perfection. That’s what makes it fun. You don’t have to find it fun. But you have to acknowledge the others who do.

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

nobody is disregarding min-maxers, i myself spent many years playing at a high level, i know what it takes. The issue is only with people who min-max telling others that’s the way they should play outwith raids and thats been driven out by a minmax blinkered mentality which has been driven out by modern raid design. You don’t get people who experiment with builds and play builds that are different telling others to follow suit or get out of group – but you fo get it a lot with raiders. D2 is a prime example of a game type that crossed over to rpg’s and kittened them up, its a very different style of gameplay (rush get loot, rush get more loot, rsh etc etc)


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

There’s a good reason why you should play the meta in the endgame. It’s not because you get the loot faster, it’s because it helps your group make less mistakes and increases your chances to succeed. Now of course there are degrees to that. Insisting a dps to change from his main to another class because qT do 5% more dps on the other one is silly. Chances are this will result in a net loss of dps for the group anyway, as you’re losing a proficient (if technically suboptimal) character and gaining a non-proficient, if optimal one.

That being said, if you want to experiment, do so. Open your own group and invite like-minded people. I’m sure there will be those who’d join. If you’re good enough, you can make it. If you aren’t, you can hone your skills and still make it. It just takes effort and dedication.

From this perspective, I can’t agree there is a design issue at all. Games like this, especially MMOs, need their endgame to keep their players. Role-playing is fun, but one can only enjoy massacring helpless monsters for so long. It gets dull and players leave dull games. It’s just a necessary choice.

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

actually meta means optimize rotation, and use reduced skills sets, that increases 1 aspect of skill – muscle memory and rote memorization of rotations. that’s why you often find PVE players get slaughtered in PVP, they struggle with dynamic gameplay. However as long as people keep an open mind and realize that their way is not the only way and choice and diversity is the food of interesting gameplay then thats a healthy place to be in a rpg imo.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

There’s a good reason why you should play the meta in the endgame. It’s not because you get the loot faster, it’s because it helps your group make less mistakes and increases your chances to succeed. Now of course there are degrees to that. Insisting a dps to change from his main to another class because qT do 5% more dps on the other one is silly. Chances are this will result in a net loss of dps for the group anyway, as you’re losing a proficient (if technically suboptimal) character and gaining a non-proficient, if optimal one.

That being said, if you want to experiment, do so. Open your own group and invite like-minded people. I’m sure there will be those who’d join. If you’re good enough, you can make it. If you aren’t, you can hone your skills and still make it. It just takes effort and dedication.

From this perspective, I can’t agree there is a design issue at all. Games like this, especially MMOs, need their endgame to keep their players. Role-playing is fun, but one can only enjoy massacring helpless monsters for so long. It gets dull and players leave dull games. It’s just a necessary choice.

And that is ok for raids but the raids end game is effecting other forms of end game that are very different. How would you feel if raids got the same balancing effects as spvp? Massive cd add on dmg resurrection on effects and much worst scaling across the board.

Its like chasing jump hit to make jumping puzzle work right for every one with complete disregard to every thing else in the game.

Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

I have a great example, its blatantly obvious when you do instances with raiders, they invariably want to stack up on a corner and stack on boss. This is the most efficient way ofc, but its dull as hell, and new players learn absolutely nothing apart from spamming their face off in a big graphical blob. Now in raids its critical you control placement, but outside its a lot more enjoyable to loosen up a bit and flex your abilities and placement awareness.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

I have a great example, its blatantly obvious when you do instances with raiders, they invariably want to stack up on a corner and stack on boss. This is the most efficient way ofc, but its dull as hell, and new players learn absolutely nothing apart from spamming their face off in a big graphical blob. Now in raids its critical you control placement, but outside its a lot more enjoyable to loosen up a bit and flex your abilities and placement awareness.

It’s not just raids. Stacking on corners were the meta in dungeons long ago, and it is still a thing in fractals despite the Social Awkwardness instability. It is just incredibly beneficial to keep the enemy in your damage AOEs, hence this way of playing. Especially if your group can outheal or otherwise negate the damage (mesmer distortion is fantastic in this respect, I’d say it’s a larger group dps improvement on some bosses than GotL).

Keep in mind this, again, is drive toward perfection. Only on a different scale, this time it’s about the group rather than just yourself. It’s not very interactive, meaning you often flat out ignore the incoming attacks and you fully rely on your team to mitigate them. But I’d say it is nevertheless quite satisfying. Of course, if you have the mentality for it.

I also do not agree players do not learn anything from it. I became a much better player once I started raiding. Unlike dungeons, raid encounters throw mechanics in your face all the time. Raiding improved immensely my positioning, dodging and timing skills. My attacks now get interrupted less often and the mobs rarely move out of their areas.

Ironically, the meta also taught me to not be afraid of tweaking my build or utilities depending on the situation. For many bosses the optimal traits, utilities and even the weapon choices, are different. This improved my understanding of the class. I now don’t hesitate to change build, using completely off-meta traits and utilities for a particular fight because I can now better kitten their value in this situation. Ironically again, these improvements are best seen in the open world. But the changes are real.

Now, of course, this is only my experience. But I believe you’ll find many players, especially new/less skilled ones, to share it. I think, as one of those players, you either go through something like it or you stop raiding. I don’t think there’s a middle way here. You either enjoy the process or you don’t, and if you do, you’ll keep improving because it adds to the fun.

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Posted by: Axl.8924

Axl.8924

Guys can someone help? what rune should i get for my ele?

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

For a “glass cannon” setups:

Scholar, Strength or Flame Legion for power builds.
Balthazar for condi builds.

Scholar is the best choice (gives the largest dps increase). Its drawback is, it loses efficiency if you get hit often (you lose the 10% damage modifier).

Strength is nice for soloing but not really useful in groups.

Flame Legion is a cheaper alternative. Weaker modifier than Scholar, but much more reliable. Stronger than Strength, but only if you get supplied with Might externally.

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

I have a great example, its blatantly obvious when you do instances with raiders, they invariably want to stack up on a corner and stack on boss. This is the most efficient way ofc, but its dull as hell, and new players learn absolutely nothing apart from spamming their face off in a big graphical blob. Now in raids its critical you control placement, but outside its a lot more enjoyable to loosen up a bit and flex your abilities and placement awareness.

It’s not just raids. Stacking on corners were the meta in dungeons long ago, and it is still a thing in fractals despite the Social Awkwardness instability. It is just incredibly beneficial to keep the enemy in your damage AOEs, hence this way of playing. Especially if your group can outheal or otherwise negate the damage (mesmer distortion is fantastic in this respect, I’d say it’s a larger group dps improvement on some bosses than GotL).

Keep in mind this, again, is drive toward perfection. Only on a different scale, this time it’s about the group rather than just yourself. It’s not very interactive, meaning you often flat out ignore the incoming attacks and you fully rely on your team to mitigate them. But I’d say it is nevertheless quite satisfying. Of course, if you have the mentality for it.

I also do not agree players do not learn anything from it. I became a much better player once I started raiding. Unlike dungeons, raid encounters throw mechanics in your face all the time. Raiding improved immensely my positioning, dodging and timing skills. My attacks now get interrupted less often and the mobs rarely move out of their areas.

Ironically, the meta also taught me to not be afraid of tweaking my build or utilities depending on the situation. For many bosses the optimal traits, utilities and even the weapon choices, are different. This improved my understanding of the class. I now don’t hesitate to change build, using completely off-meta traits and utilities for a particular fight because I can now better kitten their value in this situation. Ironically again, these improvements are best seen in the open world. But the changes are real.

Now, of course, this is only my experience. But I believe you’ll find many players, especially new/less skilled ones, to share it. I think, as one of those players, you either go through something like it or you stop raiding. I don’t think there’s a middle way here. You either enjoy the process or you don’t, and if you do, you’ll keep improving because it adds to the fun.

which is all about efficiency again (a given for raids ) not gameplay, different horses for different courses. Stacking in a ball is not great gameplay, its extremely poor gameplay born from a need by some to do everything as fast as possible.

You can get better without smashing your face against the boss in melee range, especially if you are not melee. it wont be optimal, but it will be more fun for many and that’s the point, not everyone gets off on speed and highest possible numbers and ‘perfection’ rather they try to improve on personal rather than meta driven goals, this is RPG.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

here is the difference between meta mentality and non meta mentality:

Meta – ball up its faster, use optimal build x its faster.
Non Meta, I really enjoy combo X and Y it worked really well, Its not optimal but i enjoy pulling it off.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

The speed and stacking aren’t just to be fast. Being faster means less chances for mistake. Knowing where your teammates are mean less chances for mistake. Otherwise you end up with fights getting progressively more chaotic, which to me is more annoying than fun. If you’re good enough to not play meta and have fun carrying chaotic encounters – good for you. I’m not. I like to experiment with builds, too. But I do it in the open world, where I can pull it off.

(edited by Feanor.2358)

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

Rubbish, people make less errors when they take time, more when they blindly run through mobs shouting /gg every 5 minutes because they have died yet again (we have all seen that haven’t we). Your confusing raiding for normal play where you have 1 person trying to control a pack of players and funnel into a rote strategy. As for ‘chaotic’ your using ‘chaotic’ describes perfectly the elitist attitude with others who blindly spew out ‘meta’ every 2 minutes like mindless automaton. Builds that are not meta are not ‘chaotic’ in fact they favor control and mitigation more than those that kitten dps and die every 5 minutes and scream and tut and huff.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

Mate, it’s not just raids. It’s the same in fractals. Non-meta pug groups in general are so much worse. Lack of supports means less buffs and less dps. Lack of stacking means even less buffs and less healing (assuming you even have a healer). Having to heal yourself means less dps, assuming you can outheal the incoming damage at all. Low dps in turn means more time needed to kill the boss, meaning more damage taken, more downs and more wipes. It’s not rubbish, it’s hard facts. I’ve seen it, and I keep seeing it.

“Chaotic” is a loose term I use to describe encounters which do not run smoothly. Players downing all the time, the proverbial dodging out of heals, etc. Stacking gets rid of this, too. Someone downs? Everyone else can just press “F”, because they don’t need to run through half the room for it. Someone low? AOE heals are guaranteed to hit them.

Sure, in low-tier fractals, open world or dungeons just play whatever. It doesn’t matter there, because there is no actual challenge. When there is, being off-meta is just taking a lot more unnecessary risks.

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Posted by: mygamingid.5816

mygamingid.5816

Five key things to remember when discussing raids and meta builds…

1. Incoming damage is almost entirely mechanics-based. You avoid damage by moving into or out of a specific location. If you don’t move into or out of the location in question, you probably die instantly. It’s entirely different from standard PvE.

2. Because damage is mechanics-based, any attention to toughness or vitality is wasted. This is why raids run glass cannon builds across the board. Even the “tank” runs just enough toughness to prioritize them over a PS Warrior rezzing someone. Any additional toughness is wasted in raids.

3. The raid meta assumes that you’ll have a Chronomancer, a PS Warrior, and a Druid covering a ton of boons for you with near-perfect uptime. All gearing decisions for the meta are made with that assumption and leave massive gaps in performance if you lack those boons or if any member of the boon trinity can’t keep them up consistently and perfectly.

4. The top raid teams are made of truly outstanding players. They have perfected their rotations with hours of practice. They know how every second of every raid will play out. Unless you’re at that level, their builds and rotations may not work for you.

5. The raid meta is built for speed and speed alone. Safety has no place in it. You use the minimum possible support and maximum possible DPS to get the fastest possible time. When you know the raids like the top guilds do, this is the best option. If you don’t, then you can make some less-speedy choices that will be much more safe for your team.

For example, Ele can outheal Druid and is a safer choice there, but Druid brings key unique boons, so Druids fill the dual role of support and healer. Engi is the toughest class in the game, but Chronomancer gear carries unwanted Toughness, so the Chrono gets dual-purposed as the tank. Bring a Revenant with Facet of Nature and you can get an extra 33% boon duration for the party, allowing you to run a lot less boon-duration gear.

Qtfy doesn’t need to do any of that. They have minimized their support and maximized their DPS. Their players are good enough to make that work. Most others aren’t.

On a related note, a while back I was farming Fractal 40 with some PUGs (3xEle, 2xThief). I was very new to the game, but had rapidly built up my character with raid meta Dagger/Warhorn FA gear. The team leader was a full-on meta fanatic with the same build. We failed a couple times and he’s screaming about needing more DPS. Talk to the group and every single person is running full Berserker’s and dying the second they take a hit. Doesn’t matter, we need more DPS. There is absolutely no boon support on this team and nothing but DPS builds. One Ele drops and an Engi joins. The Berserker’s go down again (“MOAR DPS!” cries the leader) and the Engi proceeds to solo the fractal. The Engi was running a non-meta Celestial build with weak DPS.

How could this Engi possibly handle the fractal by themselves? They didn’t care about being the fastest, they cared about finishing. He had a ton of sustain and enough DPS, flipping the raid meta standard completely. Four glass cannon Berserker’s meta builds singlehandedly carried by a non-meta Cele Engi.

Moral of the story? Kitten the meta, do what works and shift as you get better.

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Posted by: Axl.8924

Axl.8924

So i was told that i shouldn’t go staff.Is staff unviable? I was told that dps on dagger is better.

(edited by Axl.8924)

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

‘Chaotic’ is derogatory term again which is known as dynamic true rpg play by others who embrace challenge. Dynamic gameplay scares some raiders as they cant pump out their rotation and cant cope with change, that’s not what they train themeseves to deal with, They need to minimise risk and introduce routine, the benefit of routine is speed if you care for that. Many people love dynamic game play where people trust in their players and skills to adapt to the group dynamics. Neither approach is wrong Horses for courses as i’ve said, there is room for both if you can handle it.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

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Posted by: Patty.3268

Patty.3268

Staff is definitely not unviable. But it relies on ground targeted AoE fields and keeping your enemies in them. That is usually no problem in group play, but harder when playing solo, because you have to kite your enemies through your fields. Therefore I prefer D/WH for solo play. Also, D/x provides more auras than Staff, so it has a little more synergy with Tempest.

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Posted by: Axl.8924

Axl.8924

I think its just that the dragons and wyverns where flax seeds are up above in the tree are just really hard for every class.Even on my ranger i had to constantly kite them and on my necro i had tor un away to avoid a lot of hits, and its pretty hectic when alone.

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

So i was told that i shouldn’t go staff.Is staff unviable? I was told that dps on dagger is better.

All the weapons are viable, i personally mix between dagger/sceptre/focus to suit my mood. I would take armor of earth to help and tempest to start, and do have food and utility, it costs pennies and makes life much easier. Staff is the least mobile of the weapons so I would not use that in a zone that is mob heavy and needs regular movement, unless you are confident you can nuke mobs down easily.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

1. Incoming damage is almost entirely mechanics-based. You avoid damage by moving into or out of a specific location. If you don’t move into or out of the location in question, you probably die instantly. It’s entirely different from standard PvE.

There’s “standard” PvE? It’s pretty much the same everywhere in PvE where you can’t complete the content by rolling your face on the keyboard.

2. Because damage is mechanics-based, any attention to toughness or vitality is wasted. This is why raids run glass cannon builds across the board. Even the “tank” runs just enough toughness to prioritize them over a PS Warrior rezzing someone. Any additional toughness is wasted in raids.

Toughness and vitality are wasted stats in PvE as a whole, not just in raids. Again, the only difference is difficulty. Easy content you can beat using whatever stats and build, difficult content you can’t. It doesn’t make the stats any less wasted in the easy content, though.

3. The raid meta assumes that you’ll have a Chronomancer, a PS Warrior, and a Druid covering a ton of boons for you with near-perfect uptime. All gearing decisions for the meta are made with that assumption and leave massive gaps in performance if you lack those boons or if any member of the boon trinity can’t keep them up consistently and perfectly.

The massive gaps in performance are only massive compared to the optimal raid setup (which by the way is realistic in any 5-man content as well, since the mirror comp meta). Compared to an off-meta build? You’ll still blow it away. Because you don’t waste your stats, for instance.

4. The top raid teams are made of truly outstanding players. They have perfected their rotations with hours of practice. They know how every second of every raid will play out. Unless you’re at that level, their builds and rotations may not work for you.

Flattering. But no. You don’t have to be outstanding to raid successfully. Also nobody is born good. It’s a skill which is trained like any other – by usage.

5. The raid meta is built for speed and speed alone. Safety has no place in it. You use the minimum possible support and maximum possible DPS to get the fastest possible time. When you know the raids like the top guilds do, this is the best option. If you don’t, then you can make some less-speedy choices that will be much more safe for your team.

Not quite true, especially in the content of the Elementalist class. Remember, the raid meta is not just your own build, it’s also the builds of 9 other people. When you need safety, you get Magi druids, you don’t change your gear to valk stats and ruin your dps. You also overlook the fact that speed is safety in challenging content. Less time the enemies are alive = less damage they deal to you.

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Posted by: mygamingid.5816

mygamingid.5816

So i was told that i shouldn’t go staff.Is staff unviable? I was told that dps on dagger is better.

Staff is amazing if you can sit back and throw damage, preferably against a single large immobile target or a ton of weak targets. If you can’t stay at range or find yourself facing fewer tougher normal-sized targets, then it’ll be less viable. Meteor Shower’s channel is a pain in crowds, particularly if they have any sort of interrupt.

The weapon choice is really the last piece of this puzzle, though. Changing it won’t matter much for performance. What’s far more important are that your build have a purpose and that your combination of gear and traits support that purpose. So what purpose do you want to fulfill?

Single-Target DPS: Condi is king, nothing else comes close. Gear stats should be Viper/Sinister, Carrion, Trailblazer, or Dire (in order of most offensive to most defensive). Trait Fire and generally stay in Fire to cause damage. For the other two specializations, choose between Arcane, Earth, and Tempest. You can’t go wrong, regardless of choice. Weapon should be anything except Staff, but it will still be okay if you have offensive gear (Viper and/or Sinister).

AOE DPS: Power is better here and Eles are among the best in the game, but you’ll be weak against normal-sized single targets. Aggro management may be difficult and you can easily be overwhelmed if you get the first hit in on a pack of mobs. Gear stats should be Berserker’s (more Power, more Ferocity, best with raid boons) or Marauder’s (more Precision, more Vitality). Mix in Assassin’s for additional Precision, as needed. Weapon can be anything, but a Fresh Air build should avoid Staff.

Support: Auramancer. Ele Auramancer is a very powerful support build. They offer a variety of boons and massive healing. DPS will be much lower than traditional DPS builds, but you can become essentially unkillable and can make your team equally unkillable. Zealot’s gear with an Air/Water/Tempest Fresh Air spec gives a good combination of Power, Precision, and Healing for an offensive-minded Auramancer. If you want even more healing and survivability, then consider Apothecary with an Earth/Water/Tempest spec. Weapon can be anything, but a Zealot’s Fresh Air build should avoid Staff.

Everything: So you don’t know what you want to do or don’t want to commit. That’s okay. Here’s where I recommend Celestial gear (equal bonuses to every stat except Concentration and Expertise). You can swap traits and specializations to favor support or DPS as you go. Neither support nor DPS will be as good as dedicated builds, but you’ll be much more well-rounded than any of those. Weapon can be anything.

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Posted by: AliamRationem.5172

AliamRationem.5172

I think its just that the dragons and wyverns where flax seeds are up above in the tree are just really hard for every class.Even on my ranger i had to constantly kite them and on my necro i had tor un away to avoid a lot of hits, and its pretty hectic when alone.

Again, you just need to learn your class and improve your gear. Elementalist can charge in and destroy those wyverns and so can other classes.

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Posted by: AliamRationem.5172

AliamRationem.5172

@Feanor

What you say really isn’t accurate. Vitality and toughness are only useless under two conditions: 1) When the attack that killed you in full glass still would have killed you in gear with vitality/toughness – i.e. pass/fail mechanics, which are quite rare in open world, and 2) When you make no errors that would have killed you in full glass. From ele’s reputation as the “squishiest” class, it’s pretty obvious a large number of ele players don’t meet this standard.

The same applies to your claim of it being safer to use full glass because faster kills present fewer chances for error. Faster kills do present fewer opportunities for error, but again this only makes you safer if you are less likely to die in the attempt.

To put it another way, in full glass you kill faster but you must make fewer errors. For many players in solo play, this is a bad bet when you could take longer to kill while having significantly greater margin for error.

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

@AliamRationem:
I agree with in the context of generic PvE and mostly solo play. Defensive stats can be a useful crutch there until you’re comfortable enough with the class to not need them anymore.

But I’m talking about group scenarios in the context of meta group composition and tactics. Having defenses doesn’t really make much difference in this case. You’ll make mistakes, everyone does. But you’re stacked with the group and the Druid is spamming heals on top of you to keep your GotL stacks up. This can outheal a LOT of damage. Depending on the exact comp and tactic you may have high Protection uptime, get Aegis from the DH in party or a well-timed Distortion from the mesmer so you don’t even have to dodge a particular attack. It really is more beneficial, for both you and your party, to have the full glass spec here. Of course this, too, assumes some level of competence from all the players. But it’s not nearly as high as you may think.