Guild Wars 2

Feanor.2358:

@AliamRationem:
I agree with in the context of generic PvE and mostly solo play. Defensive stats can be a useful crutch there until you’re comfortable enough with the class to not need them anymore.

But I’m talking about group scenarios in the context of meta group composition and tactics. Having defenses doesn’t really make much difference in this case. You’ll make mistakes, everyone does. But you’re stacked with the group and the Druid is spamming heals on top of you to keep your GotL stacks up. This can outheal a LOT of damage. Depending on the exact comp and tactic you may have high Protection uptime, get Aegis from the DH in party or a well-timed Distortion from the mesmer so you don’t even have to dodge a particular attack. It really is more beneficial, for both you and your party, to have the full glass spec here. Of course this, too, assumes some level of competence from all the players. But it’s not nearly as high as you may think.

man i’m not sure you realise your doing it! ‘generic’, ‘useful crutch’
is the same derogatory comments in another form, anything that’s not dps is a waste to you, your blind to gameplay beyond that perfect dps number and sterilization of all game play until you get the perfect samey combo that can be optimized to death so you can do it over and over again ad infinitum.

Gaming is not all about min-maxing, gaming is about emotional and intellectual pleasure. Stacking in a pile and smashing your face on the boss while the 5 of you roll through the same combination of spells is turgid awful gameplay for many, i mean its obvious, watch from outside in a video how it looks, what is the point appart from ‘fast loot’! For some being x% less efficient but a much more interesting fight is what gaming is about.

Lets take it it to the extreme ends of the efficiency scale to really emphasis whats going on here – The most efficient rotation: all 5 players can spam skill number 1 in a ball on the boss which gives max dps, no risk of death, and fastest approach as long as everyone keeps spamming. See how horrible that is? that’s what raiders pitch, routine and order. Dull and insipid supplemented with little adrenaline bursts from the dps meter meta game.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Gaming is not all about min-maxing, gaming is about emotional and intellectual pleasure.

Which (pleasure) is subjective. So gaming can be about min-maxing. It’s just as valid as being about everything else.

You seem to have a problem with people expressing strong opinions different than your own. Why? It’s my way of play, it’s my perspective. To me, these are wasted stats. They give me zero benefit and they cost me stats which would give me non-zero one. It’s my own perception of the game, which I’m entitled to. As I am entitled to voicing my opinion, should I see fit. You may agree or disagree with it, but criticizing me for doing so can’t possibly be justified.

Your extreme example serves no purpose either. This would only be the case if the game designers in charge of balance were astonishingly incompetent. It would make the gameplay dull and the players would get bored and quit. Since none of this is true, I see no point in bringing it up at all. Yes, it could happen, in theory. Yes, it would be dull, again, in theory. However it doesn’t and it isn’t. It’s a pleasant experience, which I can’t say for playing with groups that wipe over and over again, spending literal hours on encounters which can be cleared in five minutes.

Feanor.2358:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Gaming is not all about min-maxing, gaming is about emotional and intellectual pleasure.

Which (pleasure) is subjective. So gaming can be about min-maxing. It’s just as valid as being about everything else.

You seem to have a problem with people expressing strong opinions different than your own. Why? It’s my way of play, it’s my perspective. To me, these are wasted stats. They give me zero benefit and they cost me stats which would give me non-zero one. It’s my own perception of the game, which I’m entitled to. As I am entitled to voicing my opinion, should I see fit. You may agree or disagree with it, but criticizing me for doing so can’t possibly be justified.

Your extreme example serves no purpose either. This would only be the case if the game designers in charge of balance were astonishingly incompetent. It would make the gameplay dull and the players would get bored and quit. Since none of this is true, I see no point in bringing it up at all. Yes, it could happen, in theory. Yes, it would be dull, again, in theory. However it doesn’t and it isn’t. It’s a pleasant experience, which I can’t say for playing with groups that wipe over and over again, spending literal hours on encounters which can be cleared in five minutes.

I don’t think s/he takes issue with you having an opinion or even the specifics of your opinion so much as the condescending way you express your opinion, which is a signature of your posts. Your way is the right way, and everyone else will see that once they get better at playing the game.

You seem to be completely unaware that you’re even doing it, as evidenced by your touchy replies whenever somebody points it out to you.

Of course my way is the right way. My posts are, by definition, my own opinion. “For me” is implied. That being said, I’ve also seen both sides of the coin. I’ve used Marauder and Celestial. I’ve played in groups that adhere to the meta and I’ve played in groups that don’t. I see where the others are coming from, because I’ve been there myself. And I chose to move on, because it wasn’t how I’d like to spent my free time.

Feanor.2358:

Of course my way is the right way. My posts are, by definition, my own opinion. “For me” is implied. That being said, I’ve also seen both sides of the coin. I’ve used Marauder and Celestial. I’ve played in groups that adhere to the meta and I’ve played in groups that don’t. I see where the others are coming from, because I’ve been there myself. And I chose to move on, because it wasn’t how I’d like to spent my free time.

Feanor you have a bad history of bringing nothing new to an argument only act at an denier. So yes your views are always “right” to you because you tend to think that your keeping things moving some how by getting in the way.

Ele core needs a dmg / support buff to be that in-between of tempest (support) and weaver (dmg). This is best done though arcain line and main element lines to do a bit more. At the same time things like tempest dmg effects need to be droped down and simply added to a wepon. Mostly air overload needs to be hit but given more support effects such as an super speed for its after effects when within its field.

Feanor.2358:

Of course my way is the right way. My posts are, by definition, my own opinion. “For me” is implied. That being said, I’ve also seen both sides of the coin. I’ve used Marauder and Celestial. I’ve played in groups that adhere to the meta and I’ve played in groups that don’t. I see where the others are coming from, because I’ve been there myself. And I chose to move on, because it wasn’t how I’d like to spent my free time.

Nothing of the sort is implied in statements like:

“Defensive stats can be a useful crutch there until you’re comfortable enough with the class to not need them anymore.”

It may even be a true statement, although I strongly suspect that there are limits to what even the best player can do in full glass and that they ignore those limits because whatever they are is outside of the scope of what they consider necessary or worthwhile.

For instance, when you say that you don’t want to switch gear constantly because it’s unnecessary. What you’re saying is that while you could take on certain challenges easily with a more defensive set, it isn’t worth carrying that set around for the relatively few challenges where you would find it worthwhile.

That is a very different thing than saying that players whose priorities include those challenges and are not as focused on efficiency as you are are somehow less skilled. It’s entirely possible that they are equally skilled, but simply have different priorities than you do and therefore make different choices.

If you can acknowledge that, then you should be able to understand why taking the condescending tone you so often do in these discussions has you trying to explain it away as simply your own “opinion”. If you framed your opinions differently, nobody would object to them. But I expect you enjoy getting into these arguments, as it’s not the first time this has been pointed out to you.

AliamRationem.5172:

@Feanor

What you say really isn’t accurate. Vitality and toughness are only useless under two conditions: 1) When the attack that killed you in full glass still would have killed you in gear with vitality/toughness – i.e. pass/fail mechanics, which are quite rare in open world, and 2) When you make no errors that would have killed you in full glass. From ele’s reputation as the “squishiest” class, it’s pretty obvious a large number of ele players don’t meet this standard.

The same applies to your claim of it being safer to use full glass because faster kills present fewer chances for error. Faster kills do present fewer opportunities for error, but again this only makes you safer if you are less likely to die in the attempt.

To put it another way, in full glass you kill faster but you must make fewer errors. For many players in solo play, this is a bad bet when you could take longer to kill while having significantly greater margin for error.

Except it doesn’t really work that way, because in open world PvE play in particular, killing fast is your best defense. This is why almost no one is encouraged to use defensive stats.

I agree with the OP that Ele just feels too weak overall. I have trouble even beating groups of pocket raptors in the HoT maps when no other class I play has that much trouble. I don’t really know what the best solution is, other than to make their attunements other than fire more generally useful, which I think has been needed since launch.

Einlanzer.1627:

AliamRationem.5172:

@Feanor

What you say really isn’t accurate. Vitality and toughness are only useless under two conditions: 1) When the attack that killed you in full glass still would have killed you in gear with vitality/toughness – i.e. pass/fail mechanics, which are quite rare in open world, and 2) When you make no errors that would have killed you in full glass. From ele’s reputation as the “squishiest” class, it’s pretty obvious a large number of ele players don’t meet this standard.

The same applies to your claim of it being safer to use full glass because faster kills present fewer chances for error. Faster kills do present fewer opportunities for error, but again this only makes you safer if you are less likely to die in the attempt.

To put it another way, in full glass you kill faster but you must make fewer errors. For many players in solo play, this is a bad bet when you could take longer to kill while having significantly greater margin for error.

Except it doesn’t really work that way, because in open world PvE play in particular, killing fast is your best defense. This is why almost no one is encouraged to use defensive stats.

I agree with the OP that Ele just feels too weak overall. I have trouble even beating groups of pocket raptors in the HoT maps when no other class I play has that much trouble. I don’t really know what the best solution is, other than to make their attunements other than fire more generally useful, which I think has been needed since launch.

strange i have 2600 toughness and absolutely slaughter packs of mobs with condition damage and burst in Hot. Do you use use food or utility, or have your gear setup to match the chosen type of damage you use? when i’m aoeing I have enough defenses that for 7 or so seconds im practically immune to damage. Once you know your class in depth you ave the tools to do more than just smash a max dps aoe rotation, and its more fun.

Einlanzer.1627:

AliamRationem.5172:

@Feanor

What you say really isn’t accurate. Vitality and toughness are only useless under two conditions: 1) When the attack that killed you in full glass still would have killed you in gear with vitality/toughness – i.e. pass/fail mechanics, which are quite rare in open world, and 2) When you make no errors that would have killed you in full glass. From ele’s reputation as the “squishiest” class, it’s pretty obvious a large number of ele players don’t meet this standard.

The same applies to your claim of it being safer to use full glass because faster kills present fewer chances for error. Faster kills do present fewer opportunities for error, but again this only makes you safer if you are less likely to die in the attempt.

To put it another way, in full glass you kill faster but you must make fewer errors. For many players in solo play, this is a bad bet when you could take longer to kill while having significantly greater margin for error.

Except it doesn’t really work that way, because in open world PvE play in particular, killing fast is your best defense. This is why almost no one is encouraged to use defensive stats.

I agree with the OP that Ele just feels too weak overall. I have trouble even beating groups of pocket raptors in the HoT maps when no other class I play has that much trouble. I don’t really know what the best solution is, other than to make their attunements other than fire more generally useful, which I think has been needed since launch.

So killing fast in PvE is your best defense, yet you find ele weak and have difficulty with pocket raptors. It seems to me that you might be missing something.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Einlanzer.1627:

AliamRationem.5172:

@Feanor

What you say really isn’t accurate. Vitality and toughness are only useless under two conditions: 1) When the attack that killed you in full glass still would have killed you in gear with vitality/toughness – i.e. pass/fail mechanics, which are quite rare in open world, and 2) When you make no errors that would have killed you in full glass. From ele’s reputation as the “squishiest” class, it’s pretty obvious a large number of ele players don’t meet this standard.

The same applies to your claim of it being safer to use full glass because faster kills present fewer chances for error. Faster kills do present fewer opportunities for error, but again this only makes you safer if you are less likely to die in the attempt.

To put it another way, in full glass you kill faster but you must make fewer errors. For many players in solo play, this is a bad bet when you could take longer to kill while having significantly greater margin for error.

Except it doesn’t really work that way, because in open world PvE play in particular, killing fast is your best defense. This is why almost no one is encouraged to use defensive stats.

I agree with the OP that Ele just feels too weak overall. I have trouble even beating groups of pocket raptors in the HoT maps when no other class I play has that much trouble. I don’t really know what the best solution is, other than to make their attunements other than fire more generally useful, which I think has been needed since launch.

strange i have 2600 toughness and absolutely slaughter packs of mobs with condition damage and burst in Hot. Do you use use food or utility, or have your gear setup to match the chosen type of damage you use? when i’m aoeing I have enough defenses that for 7 or so seconds im practically immune to damage. Once you know your class in depth you ave the tools to do more than just smash a max dps aoe rotation, and its more fun.

Well maybe you can do that with condition damage, since condition damage is disproportionately weighted toward a single attribute, giving you the ability to hybridize. Power builds can’t really pull this off. It’s actually backwards, since power builds need defense more than condi builds do.

Really, all you’re doing with this post is showing how broken the game’s overall balance is.

AliamRationem.5172:

Einlanzer.1627:

AliamRationem.5172:

@Feanor

What you say really isn’t accurate. Vitality and toughness are only useless under two conditions: 1) When the attack that killed you in full glass still would have killed you in gear with vitality/toughness – i.e. pass/fail mechanics, which are quite rare in open world, and 2) When you make no errors that would have killed you in full glass. From ele’s reputation as the “squishiest” class, it’s pretty obvious a large number of ele players don’t meet this standard.

The same applies to your claim of it being safer to use full glass because faster kills present fewer chances for error. Faster kills do present fewer opportunities for error, but again this only makes you safer if you are less likely to die in the attempt.

To put it another way, in full glass you kill faster but you must make fewer errors. For many players in solo play, this is a bad bet when you could take longer to kill while having significantly greater margin for error.

Except it doesn’t really work that way, because in open world PvE play in particular, killing fast is your best defense. This is why almost no one is encouraged to use defensive stats.

I agree with the OP that Ele just feels too weak overall. I have trouble even beating groups of pocket raptors in the HoT maps when no other class I play has that much trouble. I don’t really know what the best solution is, other than to make their attunements other than fire more generally useful, which I think has been needed since launch.

So killing fast in PvE is your best defense, yet you find ele weak and have difficulty with pocket raptors. It seems to me that you might be missing something.

I don’t actually have my Ele in all zerker at the moment, but that doesn’t really matter – the fact is I can kill groups of pocket raptors with relative ease on any other class I play regardless of build/stat combos, and I frequently die trying to do the same on my Ele.

Einlanzer.1627:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Einlanzer.1627:

AliamRationem.5172:

@Feanor

What you say really isn’t accurate. Vitality and toughness are only useless under two conditions: 1) When the attack that killed you in full glass still would have killed you in gear with vitality/toughness – i.e. pass/fail mechanics, which are quite rare in open world, and 2) When you make no errors that would have killed you in full glass. From ele’s reputation as the “squishiest” class, it’s pretty obvious a large number of ele players don’t meet this standard.

The same applies to your claim of it being safer to use full glass because faster kills present fewer chances for error. Faster kills do present fewer opportunities for error, but again this only makes you safer if you are less likely to die in the attempt.

To put it another way, in full glass you kill faster but you must make fewer errors. For many players in solo play, this is a bad bet when you could take longer to kill while having significantly greater margin for error.

Except it doesn’t really work that way, because in open world PvE play in particular, killing fast is your best defense. This is why almost no one is encouraged to use defensive stats.

I agree with the OP that Ele just feels too weak overall. I have trouble even beating groups of pocket raptors in the HoT maps when no other class I play has that much trouble. I don’t really know what the best solution is, other than to make their attunements other than fire more generally useful, which I think has been needed since launch.

strange i have 2600 toughness and absolutely slaughter packs of mobs with condition damage and burst in Hot. Do you use use food or utility, or have your gear setup to match the chosen type of damage you use? when i’m aoeing I have enough defenses that for 7 or so seconds im practically immune to damage. Once you know your class in depth you ave the tools to do more than just smash a max dps aoe rotation, and its more fun.

Well maybe you can do that with condition damage, since condition damage is disproportionately weighted toward a single attribute, giving you the ability to hybridize. Power builds can’t really pull this off. It’s actually backwards, since power builds need defense more than condi builds do.

Really, all you’re doing with this post is showing how broken the game’s overall balance is.

The thread isn’t about whining about condition damage, so i’m showing nothing app art from options that you have as an ele.

Einlanzer.1627:

AliamRationem.5172:

Einlanzer.1627:

AliamRationem.5172:

@Feanor

What you say really isn’t accurate. Vitality and toughness are only useless under two conditions: 1) When the attack that killed you in full glass still would have killed you in gear with vitality/toughness – i.e. pass/fail mechanics, which are quite rare in open world, and 2) When you make no errors that would have killed you in full glass. From ele’s reputation as the “squishiest” class, it’s pretty obvious a large number of ele players don’t meet this standard.

The same applies to your claim of it being safer to use full glass because faster kills present fewer chances for error. Faster kills do present fewer opportunities for error, but again this only makes you safer if you are less likely to die in the attempt.

To put it another way, in full glass you kill faster but you must make fewer errors. For many players in solo play, this is a bad bet when you could take longer to kill while having significantly greater margin for error.

Except it doesn’t really work that way, because in open world PvE play in particular, killing fast is your best defense. This is why almost no one is encouraged to use defensive stats.

I agree with the OP that Ele just feels too weak overall. I have trouble even beating groups of pocket raptors in the HoT maps when no other class I play has that much trouble. I don’t really know what the best solution is, other than to make their attunements other than fire more generally useful, which I think has been needed since launch.

So killing fast in PvE is your best defense, yet you find ele weak and have difficulty with pocket raptors. It seems to me that you might be missing something.

I don’t actually have my Ele in all zerker at the moment, but that doesn’t really matter – the fact is I can kill groups of pocket raptors with relative ease on any other class I play regardless of build/stat combos, and I frequently die trying to do the same on my Ele.

Well, I find it hard to believe you’re running a very defensive setup, given that you just told me offense is ele’s best defense and you’re dying to pocket raptors. If you ran any significant amount of vitality, toughness, or healing power I think you would have to try pretty hard to have trouble with them as even a full celestial build has no trouble taking them down in no time.

The defensive stats simply give you more margin for error so your gameplay doesn’t have to be as sharp to survive. With enough toughness or vitality you can just eat the damage and still survive (not that I’m suggesting you should!). With healing power the way ele can heal with passive/instant healing, by the time the raptors set up for another attack you’ll have too much health for them to take down.

Sure, you can also just burst them down in full glass and save time. But if you don’t use the right moves or don’t act quickly enough, they have a much better chance of killing you in response.

As for other classes having an easier time? Maybe so. But by the same token I can do things with my ele that I struggle with on other classes. I haven’t figured out how to solo mushroom queen on my thief yet, for instance. I can do that on my ele. Does ele need a nerf because of that?

Einlanzer.1627:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Einlanzer.1627:

AliamRationem.5172:

@Feanor

What you say really isn’t accurate. Vitality and toughness are only useless under two conditions: 1) When the attack that killed you in full glass still would have killed you in gear with vitality/toughness – i.e. pass/fail mechanics, which are quite rare in open world, and 2) When you make no errors that would have killed you in full glass. From ele’s reputation as the “squishiest” class, it’s pretty obvious a large number of ele players don’t meet this standard.

The same applies to your claim of it being safer to use full glass because faster kills present fewer chances for error. Faster kills do present fewer opportunities for error, but again this only makes you safer if you are less likely to die in the attempt.

To put it another way, in full glass you kill faster but you must make fewer errors. For many players in solo play, this is a bad bet when you could take longer to kill while having significantly greater margin for error.

Except it doesn’t really work that way, because in open world PvE play in particular, killing fast is your best defense. This is why almost no one is encouraged to use defensive stats.

I agree with the OP that Ele just feels too weak overall. I have trouble even beating groups of pocket raptors in the HoT maps when no other class I play has that much trouble. I don’t really know what the best solution is, other than to make their attunements other than fire more generally useful, which I think has been needed since launch.

strange i have 2600 toughness and absolutely slaughter packs of mobs with condition damage and burst in Hot. Do you use use food or utility, or have your gear setup to match the chosen type of damage you use? when i’m aoeing I have enough defenses that for 7 or so seconds im practically immune to damage. Once you know your class in depth you ave the tools to do more than just smash a max dps aoe rotation, and its more fun.

Well maybe you can do that with condition damage, since condition damage is disproportionately weighted toward a single attribute, giving you the ability to hybridize. Power builds can’t really pull this off. It’s actually backwards, since power builds need defense more than condi builds do.

Really, all you’re doing with this post is showing how broken the game’s overall balance is.

Btw, I run power d/d on my ele. Crusader armor with zealot everything else. It works well, damage is solid, heals are amazing, and I can take on an army or most champions while playing very aggressively.

Einlanzer.1627:

I don’t actually have my Ele in all zerker at the moment, but that doesn’t really matter – the fact is I can kill groups of pocket raptors with relative ease on any other class I play regardless of build/stat combos, and I frequently die trying to do the same on my Ele.

Sounds like you need some sustain! Pocket raptors couldn’t even scratch my Cleric’s Auramancer and I had no issues killing them. No problems killing anything, really.
I soloed Champions running Earth/Water/Tempest with zero Precision and Ferocity from gear, food, or utilities.

Was it fast? No. It was slow at killing anything (trash excepted), but it was incredibly safe. I had no concern at all about dying. Why? Because high DPS does not equal safety. You can absolutely build your way to safety and still have plenty of DPS to down your target before it can down you.

What matters is (Enemy Adjusted DPS/Player Health) / (Player Adjusted DPS/Enemy Health). By “Adjusted DPS” I mean DPS adjusted for any healing and loss to evades, blocks, protection, etc. As long as that number is less than 1, you’re golden. If that number is 1 or higher, then you’re going down. The closer it gets to 1 on either side, the longer the fight takes.

AOE can hit everything, which is nice, but it has a problem in that it depletes all enemies’ health at roughly the same rate. So you’re hitting everything, but nothing dies until after it gets 2+ rounds of attack on you. Enemy DPS runs at 100% until something dies. Strong single-target damage can cut into enemy DPS. Five raptors becomes four for 80% DPS and you’ve got instant improved survivability. Another dies and you’re at 60% DPS. Sustain is a LOT easier under those conditions. It may take you a couple seconds longer to kill all of them, but you’ll live, which is nice.

For any glass cannons having problems with sustain, I’d recommend the following:
1. Open with a stun, blind, evade, or block. You’ll avoid the initial burst of damage, which is usually the heaviest, and give your AOEs time to work. If that doesn’t work, then…
2. Change up your utilities and traits to facilitate #1. What you may need are more stuns, blinds, evades, and blocks. If that doesn’t work, then…
3. Change up your traits to increase sustain. Trait for things that reduce your opponent’s Adjusted DPS. If that doesn’t work, then…
4. Change up your specializations to increase sustain. Again, you’re looking for traits that allow you to reduce opposing Adjusted DPS. If that doesn’t work, then…
5. Change your gear and build to increase sustain. This is – and should be – the last option. Good gear is expensive AF. Change to something closer to a WvW build with more Toughness, Vitaility, and damage mitigation.

The easiest change for a glass cannon Ele is retraiting Fire to 1-1-3. You’ll blind anything you burn and you’ll almost always open with a burn on your target. You only proc this once every 8 seconds, but it’ll mitigate that initial burst and that will likely be enough to get you through. When you’re fighting tougher opponents, switch back to 1-1-1 (if someone else provides your Might or you have a ton of blast finishers in your rotation) or 1-1-2 (under any other condition).

AliamRationem.5172:

For instance, when you say that you don’t want to switch gear constantly because it’s unnecessary. What you’re saying is that while you could take on certain challenges easily with a more defensive set, it isn’t worth carrying that set around for the relatively few challenges where you would find it worthwhile.

I was actually saying this in the context of changing between Assassin and Berserker gear, which have exactly the same amount of defensive stats.

You’re correct to point out different players may have different priorities, however there are those priorities which are shared among more players and those who are shared by less. Soloing group events falls in the second category. And you can do many of these in full glass regardless. But whatever, nevermind me. Run whatever you want and justify your choices in your own eyes however you like. Like I said, I’ve been there and I’ve done that.

mygamingid.5816:

Einlanzer.1627:

I don’t actually have my Ele in all zerker at the moment, but that doesn’t really matter – the fact is I can kill groups of pocket raptors with relative ease on any other class I play regardless of build/stat combos, and I frequently die trying to do the same on my Ele.

Sounds like you need some sustain! Pocket raptors couldn’t even scratch my Cleric’s Auramancer and I had no issues killing them. No problems killing anything, really.
I soloed Champions running Earth/Water/Tempest with zero Precision and Ferocity from gear, food, or utilities.

Was it fast? No. It was slow at killing anything (trash excepted), but it was incredibly safe. I had no concern at all about dying. Why? Because high DPS does not equal safety. You can absolutely build your way to safety and still have plenty of DPS to down your target before it can down you.

What matters is (Enemy Adjusted DPS/Player Health) / (Player Adjusted DPS/Enemy Health). By “Adjusted DPS” I mean DPS adjusted for any healing and loss to evades, blocks, protection, etc. As long as that number is less than 1, you’re golden. If that number is 1 or higher, then you’re going down. The closer it gets to 1 on either side, the longer the fight takes.

AOE can hit everything, which is nice, but it has a problem in that it depletes all enemies’ health at roughly the same rate. So you’re hitting everything, but nothing dies until after it gets 2+ rounds of attack on you. Enemy DPS runs at 100% until something dies. Strong single-target damage can cut into enemy DPS. Five raptors becomes four for 80% DPS and you’ve got instant improved survivability. Another dies and you’re at 60% DPS. Sustain is a LOT easier under those conditions. It may take you a couple seconds longer to kill all of them, but you’ll live, which is nice.

For any glass cannons having problems with sustain, I’d recommend the following:
1. Open with a stun, blind, evade, or block. You’ll avoid the initial burst of damage, which is usually the heaviest, and give your AOEs time to work. If that doesn’t work, then…
2. Change up your utilities and traits to facilitate #1. What you may need are more stuns, blinds, evades, and blocks. If that doesn’t work, then…
3. Change up your traits to increase sustain. Trait for things that reduce your opponent’s Adjusted DPS. If that doesn’t work, then…
4. Change up your specializations to increase sustain. Again, you’re looking for traits that allow you to reduce opposing Adjusted DPS. If that doesn’t work, then…
5. Change your gear and build to increase sustain. This is – and should be – the last option. Good gear is expensive AF. Change to something closer to a WvW build with more Toughness, Vitaility, and damage mitigation.

The easiest change for a glass cannon Ele is retraiting Fire to 1-1-3. You’ll blind anything you burn and you’ll almost always open with a burn on your target. You only proc this once every 8 seconds, but it’ll mitigate that initial burst and that will likely be enough to get you through. When you’re fighting tougher opponents, switch back to 1-1-1 (if someone else provides your Might or you have a ton of blast finishers in your rotation) or 1-1-2 (under any other condition).

this is good advice, use the tools in your toolbox to your advantage.

mygamingid.5816:

What matters is (Enemy Adjusted DPS/Player Health) / (Player Adjusted DPS/Enemy Health). By “Adjusted DPS” I mean DPS adjusted for any healing and loss to evades, blocks, protection, etc. As long as that number is less than 1, you’re golden. If that number is 1 or higher, then you’re going down. The closer it gets to 1 on either side, the longer the fight takes.

Now do the same analysis in a party scenario. Here’s some additional food for thought

“Complex encounters require teams to perform at a certain level to win and teams discriminate to raise that level even higher.”

yes, and that level is ‘viable’ not ‘optimal’ in everything apart from raids. In raids people endevours to be more efficient, in dungeons and open world PVE and PVP (well to be fair pvp has different synergies to consider) and WVW this is very different because there is no simple goal involved, the goal is not to optimize the group, the goal is to enjoy playing the class and to seek out and deal with more dynamic gameplay – we have raids for rote complex pattern matching already.

Timed events require some amount of DPS/CCPS. For example, the enrage timer in a raid or the need to do a little dance to avoid death and/or hit with sufficient CC in a timed window to avoid instant death in a raid. For every single other thing in the game, time doesn’t matter. If there is no timer, then the time it takes to complete the event does not matter.

If time does matter, you just need to complete the mechanic or event within the allotted time. You don’t want the raid to come down to the last second, but you don’t get anything if you complete it faster. You don’t need max DPS, you need enough DPS.

If you have enough DPS and better survivability, then your whole team is more likely to complete a timed event. You’ll spend less time resuscitating, type /gg less often, recover from blown rotations, and have a lot less stress overall. You’ll take more time, but so what?

exactly so, it may be a few % slower but so much more relaxed and enjoyable. Especially relevant with pugs.

vesica tempestas.1563:

yes, and that level is ‘viable’ not ‘optimal’ in everything apart from raids.

Wrong. Half a raid squad is the optimal – and most enjoyable, really – composition for any 5-man content. For me, at least. I somehow don’t enjoy fights where half the team hugs the floor half the time, the positioning is non-existent and we can’t finish trivial mechanics because of that. I wonder why…

The other issue with the off-meta play is when you end up in a meta comp, you get carried. There, all the choices you make for the sake of your own sustain are literally, objectively wasted. Because you get sustained by the healer. You deal 2-3x less damage than you should (it’s not an exaggeration sadly, I’ve seen it), and you drag your whole team back. Here “you” doesn’t refer to you personally. It should be clear, but at this point I prefer to state it explicitly. Of course, there are people who are fine or simply don’t care they get carried on a regular basis. I’m not one of them. I find no fun in someone else doing everything for me.

Viable : capable of working successfully; feasible.

Talking about ‘carrying’ people is another one of those passive aggressive comments that is flung about to insult others – it’s the ‘your not good enough’ mentality. Good teams don’t carry’ people they simply play together and enjoy the content that the group dynamic brings. Good players don’t care about who is carrying who, they simply enjoy players with others – just like those great board games and the root of RPG history.

Imagine the worlds greatest player joined your group and had an attitude towards you because he was carrying you, is he a good player or is he just an kitten ? Or, imagine you joined the best raiding group ever for 1 night and they were collectively 5% better than your own guild – and even though you are a good player they looked down on you because they were better players – pretty crappy behavior right?

You’re talking in extremes again. There are those who would behave differently for small differences and it’s a crappy behavior, I agree. Most of the skilled players won’t. However, when the presence of the player doesn’t make significant difference in the performance of the party, he’s being carried. It doesn’t matter if you word it differently, it’s just a fact. It doesn’t matter if the other players will behave differently or not, it remains a fact.

Whether or not this is a problem (it often isn’t), is a different story which is beside my point. I’m not trying to justify a behavior, be it my own or someone else’s, toward a third party. I’m only saying how a particular MY behavior would look in MY own eyes.

Finally, I prefer to put ‘viable’ in context. Something can be viable in one context and not really in another. You can have an off-meta build which is viable in a random pug party, but you end up carried in a meta party. Is it still viable? I wouldn’t say so.

your tunnel visioned with regards to dps and meta’s. Viable means viable.

,A group forms and aims to blend to gain synergy . When you blend something you don’t say ingredient 1 is carrying ingredient 2, they are greater than a sum of its parts, note you do, this is the raider mentality.

Imagine a football team in real life where the team has a star player who constantly talks about how he carries his fellow team mates – we have all seen players like this, and they get little respect ironically because of their attitude. High skilled poor team player is far worse than lower skilled team player.

How very poetic. If only being poetic made an argument true. Would you say a player tasked with a specific primary goal, and doing a poor job at it, is a good teamplayer?

Not poetic, real life with real people. As for your scenario, well you’ve already talked about poorly performing players in a dozen different ways, and I have already said good gameplay is not about playing the blame game its about smiling in the face of diversity. In real life if I had a trainee developer that was clearly struggling I would support him or help take the load – that’s normal healthy team behavior right?

you should read this -
https://hbr.org/1998/03/the-set-up-to-fail-syndrome

‘The downside of categorical thinking is that in organizations it leads to premature closure. Having made up his mind about a subordinate’s limited ability and poor motivation, a manager is likely to notice supporting evidence while selectively dismissing contrary evidence.’

Apply that to a 5 man instance.

I know what confirmation bias is, thank you. Support is fine and all, but when the trainee is actively refusing to learn your patience eventually runs out.

Are you sure about that? ‘Actively refusing’

Raider mentality – get annoyed if someone doesn’t do what you think they should do. Maybe you should ask yourself why they ‘actively refused’ and respect that eh.

It’s not about what I think they should do. It’s about the results. I’ve seen enough groups struggle and wipe on the same encounters I’ve breezed through with a meta comp. Failing something you know for a fact is easy isn’t particularly enjoyable. And if the choices of a particular player are ruining the enjoyment for 4 or 9 others, I’m sorry but I can’t find any respect for that.

Feanor.2358:

I know what confirmation bias is, thank you. Support is fine and all, but when the trainee is actively refusing to learn your patience eventually runs out.

Support ok but soon barro and condi conversion is going to be the end all be all support. Out side of pvp (spvp/wvw) support not that great due to how spread out ppl effects are in pve. There a lot of effects that realty do not work in pve at all that are at a premium in spvp / wvw such as unblockable, croupstion, strong anty condi, pulls realy most soft cc (soft cc only use in pve tends to be brake bars and realy its a joke if all your chilling slow root and cripal all do the same thing). Pve realty just needs dmg power or condi out side of that it all 2ed. effects that most classes bring build in. In spvp / wvw you see real rolls for all these different type of effects but they are held back because they are premium effects but because of that they are weaker in pve to a point to non use. That or they are often over buffed to work in pve comply messing them up in spvp / wvw.

Support ele is about to take a major hit and it still cant do anty dmg mitigation like other classes in pvp keeping it back. This is all due to its raw dmg in pve making it a high dps class in pve only because mobs lack a lot of effects that players do to deal with this raw dmg. So ele always going to get more and more dmg nerfs with out any though of the last effect in pvp.

Feanor.2358:

It’s not about what I think they should do. It’s about the results. I’ve seen enough groups struggle and wipe on the same encounters I’ve breezed through with a meta comp. Failing something you know for a fact is easy isn’t particularly enjoyable. And if the choices of a particular player are ruining the enjoyment for 4 or 9 others, I’m sorry but I can’t find any respect for that.

Then you shouldn’t pug with people, Gaming is about ‘results’ is a subjective view in your head. Clearing an instance is a result, but in your head a result is an instance cleared in just the way you think it should be done. You just don’t get it, when you start judging people you are at fault, and more than likely the source of drama we all hate.

It is impossible not to judge people. It’s how human interaction works – your mind creates fictions about people you have contact with, based on what happened when you interacted. It is not possible for these images of people to be entirely one-sided, unless perhaps when you’re falling in love. So we are judging. Every time you see something you dislike, you’re judging. And it’s not a bad thing. It’s part of what makes us individuals. Or the result of it, depending how you prefer to look at it. So I really am in no fault. I’m just being sincere.

The subjectivity you imply about the results is a stretch. It’s how game work – they give you objectives and they reward you for completing them. Sure, there’s always “the journey”, yada-yada, but let’s be realistic. Nobody (statistically speaking) enters an instance without wanting to clear it. Ironically, active raiders are probably much closer to the mindset you imply here than the “play-your-way Average Joe” you’re defending here. I spent good two hours raiding today with my guild, doing encounters that give virtually no rewards because we’ve already cleared everything earlier in the week. We just do it for fun. But rest assured, we still want to kill the bosses. We experiment with builds, but we don’t stubbornly stick with something that works poorly. It’d be selfish.

There’s a difference between judging someone and externalizing that judgement. Nobody said anyone wants to enter an instance without clearing it and that “play your way average Joe” defines the spirit of Guild wars games and players (the majority of players)

if you are comfortable with your fellow guildies experimenting then that’s no different to what I was arguing about earlier, people should be free to play with builds. Which ofc contradicts the statements and attitudes that are demonstrated towards pug players in instances i.e ‘carrying’ people etc.

Meta comp is great if you’ve got experienced meta comp players working together. If not, then they’re going to fail. And they do fail. A lot.

If your whole team has 4+ years of experience and regularly plays the content in question, then they’ll be fine. If anyone is new to the game and/or casual, they’re much more likely to get savaged running glass in raids without additional non-meta support. They can run significant additional support compared to pure glass speed meta without failing any raid.

vesica tempestas.1563:

There’s a difference between judging someone and externalizing that judgement. Nobody said anyone wants to enter an instance without clearing it and that “play your way average Joe” defines the spirit of Guild wars games and players (the majority of players)

Citation needed.

vesica tempestas.1563:

if you are comfortable with your fellow guildies experimenting then that’s no different to what I was arguing about earlier, people should be free to play with builds. Which ofc contradicts the statements and attitudes that are demonstrated towards pug players in instances i.e ‘carrying’ people etc.

There’s a difference. With my guildies, I know they are putting the effort and they have the skills. I also know if their build fails, they’ll simply revert to what is proven to work time and again. With pugs, you know nothing of the sort. Imagine having a pug ele on KC. You don’t know the player, you only know what you see. You see he’s running Signet of Air and you see his dps is terrible (true story by the way). It’s even worse when you’re playing for the actual clear and aren’t just fooling around having fun.

Dont you realise those puggers are in their own guild, they are real people just like your guildies, no different. The difference is that raiders bring a self important arrogant attitude to the pug and judge people based on dee-pee-ess. Either don’t pug or learn to trust people, focus on your own job not others, and relax the sphincter muscles. Otherwise who the hell wants to pug with a person like that.

Put it another way, when you join a pug you cannot predict what the group and skill composition will be, if you cant handle that it could be below your ‘standards’ then don’t join, its not their fault they dont meet your standards its yours for not being able to adapt.

Trust is not something you give, trust is something you earn. And no, not all pugs are the same. There are some which are skilled players. Some of them are active raiders, some of them aren’t, but they are skilled and they know what they’re doing. Some don’t have a clue. This isn’t some prejudice, it’s experience.

On the topic of joining pugs you’re not entirely correct. If you assume you have zero knowledge about the group prior to joining it, it would be true. But I can see the group description and its current composition. Nowadays I usually stay away from groups with random composition. It’s not that all of them are bad. And of course a group being meta isn’t a guarantee for anything either. But in my experience meta comp groups have considerably higher chances of being decent.

And please stop trying to imply some blame on me. It’s my free time, it’s my decision how to spend it and who to play with. I have zero obligation to spend it annoying myself because someone else decided he’s too special and can’t be bothered to play what is known to be beneficial for the other members of his group. These aren’t my standards, by the way. These are objective facts.

No actually Trust is something you give freely to start, that’s what team building is all about, same applies to generosity of spirit and compromise. If you don’t Trust from the start then your not respecting others .

your concept of Trust is at the root of this perception mismatch:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/maggie-rowe/4-reasons-why-trust-is-no_b_8119270.html

https://richardfagerlin.com/2015/05/the-big-lie-about-trust-5-reasons-why-trust-is-not-earned/

‘Trust is the responsibility of the person who wants high trust. If you want others to trust you – it’s your responsibility. If you want to be able to trust others – it’s your responsibility.’

…

’Risk tolerance.

Some people are natural risk takers; others are innately cautious. How tolerant people are of risk has a big impact on their willingness to trust—regardless of who the trustee is. Risk seekers don’t spend much time calculating what might go wrong in a given situation; in the absence of any glaring problems, they tend to have faith that things will work out . Risk avoiders, however, often need to feel in control before they place their trust in someone, and are reluctant to act without approval. Not only do they not trust others, they don’t even trust themselves. Research by the organizational anthropologist Geert Hofstede suggests that at some level, culture influences risk tolerance. The Japanese, for instance, tend to have a lower tolerance for risk than Americans.’

etc etc.

can you see how this lack of trust is an issue?

Benevolent concern.

Trust is an issue not because people are evil but because they are often self-centered.

You’re basically saying I should trust blindly each and every player I encounter. No. It’s unreasonable and it won’t work. I give everything you can reasonably give – chances to earn my trust. Some people do, some people don’t. Just like in real life.

Also note I’ve taken a lot of risks. It’s not about being risk-averse. It’s just a bias formed by experience.

i’m not saying anything, your saying it yourself and still cant see it – read the anthropological articles if you want to understand your misinterpretation of trust and how it impacts group behavior.

peace out.

ps you are risk adverse because of your bias formed from your experience, thats your mindset and responsibility, not others.

‘Trust is the responsibility of the person who wants high trust. If you want others to trust you – it’s your responsibility. If you want to be able to trust others – it’s your responsibility.’

vesica tempestas.1563:

ps you are risk adverse because of your bias formed from your experience, thats your mindset and responsibility, not others.

I simply choose my risks instead of taking each and every one blindly. Based on my experience. It’s what everybody does, really.

Also you might want to note this group behavior is observable everywhere. In games, and also in real life. So perhaps my “misinterpretation” is actually the correct one. And what you preach is just wishful thinking.

Im personally not sure about what vesica says.

When i join a group i don’t automatically have to trust everyone, they have to prove to me they are trustworthy by doing the job well.Its best not to assume anything and just wait and see and if i see that something that is easy for me cannot be easily done with them i tell them:hear me on this please, you should take this advice and it will be easier.Or them to me for an example is exceptable, as long as we don’t berate eachother which is childish but i don’t see why i should automatically trust anyone.

And its not because of being self centered, but rather because everyone has different intentions and some people play fairly fast and don’t want to help others, which i don’t like.I actually left a group because i got frustrated because i kept being knocked off platforms so i left my fractal group.Not because they were bad, but because they all just wanted to rush through and not willing to stop to help.

Other times a person might join a group and not enter the fractals.Should i automatically trust he will enter? why?

Feanor.2358:

vesica tempestas.1563:

ps you are risk adverse because of your bias formed from your experience, thats your mindset and responsibility, not others.

I simply choose my risks instead of taking each and every one blindly. Based on my experience. It’s what everybody does, really.

Also you might want to note this group behavior is observable everywhere. In games, and also in real life. So perhaps my “misinterpretation” is actually the correct one. And what you preach is just wishful thinking.

lol ok your right and human behavioral science is wrong.

maybe this will eventually sink in at some point in the future, ya never know:

‘Trust is the responsibility of the person who wants high trust. If you want others to trust you – it’s your responsibility. If you want to be able to trust others – it’s your responsibility.’ ps this isn’t my words.

Science? Since when a bunch of statements on a blog is considered science? Where’s the data? Where are the peer reviews? You’re not talking about science at all. You’re talking about faith. I, however, am not the believer type.

P.S. It’s not your words, it’s your belief. Which doesn’t make it true. One might argue universal truth on this topic doesn’t even exist, as trust is a form of belief, too, and as such is subjective.

No, if you don’t want to research anything and want to deny things out of hand with ad hominem that’s your lookout. Ever heard of the trust experiments?

That aside even if it was in my head then I would rather have trust and see what happens good or bad than somehow have 5 people automatigically evaluate each others skills and personalities accurately in a 30 minute pug run in a game with small scope for true interation – now thats mmmaaaagic as Paul Daniels once said..

vesica tempestas.1563:

No, if you don’t want to research anything and want to deny things out of hand with ad hominem that’s your lookout. Ever heard of the trust experiments?

That aside even if it was in my head then I would rather have trust and see what happens good or bad then somehow have 5 people automatigically kitten each others skills an personalities in a 30 minute pug run in a game with small scope for true interation.

I have a feeling you’re not entirely objecting to what I say. If you trust someone there would be no need to “wait and see”. If you’re waiting to see, you’re not really trusting, you’re giving someone a shot. Which is what I do, and which is what I consider the normal thing to do.

Your forgetting what i wrote earlier, i’m not risk adverse I wait and see, but I don’t care what that result is, I know 99% of the time we will clear an instance which is good enough for me and moreover there may be some enjoyable trickiness that’s more interesting to me than farming like an automaton. I enjoy challenge I hate rote, I don’t feel the need to critisise others because of their skill and knowledge (But i will critisise arrogant obnoxious anti social players because in my mind they damage RPG’s – and that most certainly is my belief).

Lets recap what you want:

-You want 4 other players in a group to match your internal monologue and interprotation of that they should be doing.
-You will automagically asess personalities and skills with people you have never met before in a pug run that is often over in less than 30 minuts(?) before you can ‘trust’ them.
-You get annoyed at people if you peceive that you are ‘carrying’ them
-You want everyone to follow your personal strategy preference – ball up on the boss and iterate through your rote patterns.
-You think everyone should follow the raiding model – fast as possible > diverse gameplay.
-Dynamic changeable play is ‘chaotic’ to you.
-You think people should play meta even if its painful and not enjoyable for them because ‘thats how they will learn’
-You think its ok for your guildies to play with builds because you trust them (contradicts last point)
-You will sneer at people if they dare use a weak skill (e.g signet of Air) because clearly thats important to group dynamics and risks the entire run failing.

Imagine all 5 players in a pug acted this way…

IF and i mean “IF” that weak skill gets that person killed repeatedly, and thus you cannot finish the level, then wouldn’t it be a bad idea to use a weak skill? Sure its fine to use a weak weapon you love, so long as you are able to survive, but there are going to be certain things more meta than others.I am not following meta advice on going fractals.My build is scepter/Dagger and staff, but it works for fractals, and that is mainly i don’t feel like using GS because i’m a condi build, and i don’t wanna be pigeonholed into 1 weapon.