Guild Wars 2

I enjoy Sceptre Focus myself, and hate GS (looking forward to the new Elite skill) , it just does not feel spellcasterish imoi

vesica tempestas.1563:

Lets recap what you want:

-You want 4 other players in a group to match your internal monologue and interprotation of that they should be doing.
-You will automagically asess personalities and skills with people you have never met before in a pug run that is often over in less than 30 minuts(?) before you can ‘trust’ them.
-You get annoyed at people if you peceive that you are ‘carrying’ them
-You want everyone to follow your personal strategy preference – ball up on the boss and iterate through your rote patterns.
-You think everyone should follow the raiding model – fast as possible > diverse gameplay.
-Dynamic changeable play is ‘chaotic’ to you.
-You think people should play meta even if its painful and not enjoyable for them because ‘thats how they will learn’
-You think its ok for your guildies to play with builds because you trust them (contradicts last point)
-You will sneer at people if they dare use a weak skill (e.g signet of Air) because clearly thats important to group dynamics and risks the entire run failing.

Imagine all 5 players in a pug acted this way…

Quite skewed perception.

What I want is to clear the instance without wasting orders of magnitude more time than needed. I like dynamic gameplay, so long as it is readable. Encounter mechanics offer a lot of that. Beating it with good teamwork I find fun. Having my teammates running around like headless chicken, without any means to know what they are doing now or what they are going to do next, makes in completely unreadable. It’s textbook chaos and I find it no fun at all.

On a related topic, I don’t mind carrying people, as long as the group as a whole can do it. Once the group starts failing because someone is doing their task poorly, it becomes annoying.

On a different related topic “my interpretation” isn’t mine and it isn’t an interpretation. This is a game and it runs on math. You have objective measures of efficiency and meta is the objectively more efficient way. Hence I would recommend it to any new players who are still learning. You can subjectively like something else but it makes meta neither subjective nor an interpretation. That’s not to say it’s the only way. But when you’re trying out something or just fooling around, it should be with the consent of the rest of your team (and while keeping in mind meta is there for a reason). This is why playing around with guildies fits – we all know and agree in advance, in return the player fooling around agrees in advance to revert back should his new build fail.

I will kitten people’s skill based on poor skill choices, because a skilled player knows his class and values his skills enough to not waste a very limited resource (skill slot) on a skill that is completely irrelevant for the fight. There will always be optimal choices and less than optimal, but still good choices. They are all fine. But extremely bad choices usually show the player isn’t familiar with the game mechanics as a whole, let alone the mechanics of the specific encounter. Mind you, we did give this pug ele a shot. And of course, his performance was abysmal.

Personalities have nothing to do with anything and I never said anything about personalities or assessing them based on gameplay performance.

Lastly, I don’t have to imagine what a pug is like when all the players have similar attitude to my own. I’ve been in a fair number of these and I still seek groups like that when pugging. What does that tell you about the quality and the behavior of these groups? Some of the players I’ve met in such groups ended up in my friend list and I keep playing with them to this day.

P.S. Assessing the skill only works in one direction by the way. Poor skill choices are indicative, but good skill choices really aren’t.

If raid meta is the only/best/safest way to do anything in GW2, why do so many teams complete raids without it? Teams complete them shorthanded, carrying buyers, without the raid meta comp, without the raid meta gear, and without the raid meta rotation in plenty of time. Teams even disagree on what the meta is.

The raid meta is great for maximum DPS, but does nothing else. If you’re only trained to the meta, you might think that nothing else could work, because that’s how it’s presented by many players. The meta has taken on an undeserved cultlike reverence that ignores reality (lots of options work, many much more consistently, none as quickly). Players will kick others over a difference of less than 0.1% theoretical DPS. You’ll lose more than that sneezing mid-rotation.

Using a skill at the wrong time, even blowing an entire rotation, won’t wipe a raid. That’s a fiction that’s held back the raiding community. Ignoring or failing a mechanic will wipe a raid and that’s just about it. There are DPS checks, but they’re set far below what’s provided by the raid meta.

Trusting a player to be good with their build is fine. Demanding that they play another build that they may not know at all hurts the effort more than allowing an off-meta build. Failure is almost always due to failing mechanics, not DPS checks. CC checks can also cause failure and building for more CC can help there. It’ll drop your DPS (you’ll still have plenty), but you’ll be more likely to succeed.

If you’re not going to trust a player, don’t put them in a critical role. I don’t care if it’s what the spec normally does in a particular raid. Let them focus on mechanics. Their gear won’t matter unless it’s particularly egregious.

Axl.8924:

IF and i mean “IF” that weak skill gets that person killed repeatedly, and thus you cannot finish the level, then wouldn’t it be a bad idea to use a weak skill? Sure its fine to use a weak weapon you love, so long as you are able to survive, but there are going to be certain things more meta than others.I am not following meta advice on going fractals.My build is scepter/Dagger and staff, but it works for fractals, and that is mainly i don’t feel like using GS because i’m a condi build, and i don’t wanna be pigeonholed into 1 weapon.

I wouldn’t bring a non-meta setup into group play because other players are counting on me to fulfill a specific role. But you started this thread due to your issues with elementalist in open world, where I feel there’s a lot more freedom to do what you want rather than what is strictly “best”. Further, what is “best” even in the raid meta depends on the encounter, which also happens in open world.

To illustrate the point, I recorded this video today (first time posting to youtube or using gameplay recording software!). It’s just my elementalist using non-meta traits, gear, and weapons and going solo against the champion chak lobber hero point challenge.

Not the toughest champion in HoT by any means, as he’s big and slow and his attacks have obvious tells, but he does hit pretty hard and will make you pay if you don’t respect him!

https://youtu.be/OHxiDJdVKRU

I think you’d be better off using full zerk staff against this enemy. You’d take less damage and staff has better healing options than daggers to begin with. With ferocity on your gear instead of healing you’d deal more damage on top of being able to attack at all times where daggers are sometimes forced out of their attack range to avoid damage.

Despite all of that, you’ll notice I still had more than 5 minutes left on the timer to defeat this enemy. Open world is definitely designed to give players freedom to play the way they want. And elementalist has all the tools you need to survive and thrive with your weapon(s) of choice.

mygamingid.5816:

If raid meta is the only/best/safest way to do anything in GW2, why do so many teams complete raids without it? Teams complete them shorthanded, carrying buyers, without the raid meta comp, without the raid meta gear, and without the raid meta rotation in plenty of time. Teams even disagree on what the meta is.

Because they are just that good, that’s why. Meta varies from encounter to encounter, however the roles are pretty set in stone in the current balance. There’s the druid which heals, there’s the chrono which tanks and buffs, there’s the PS which supplies with might and deals damage and there are the pure damage dealers. You won’t see teams deviate from that, except for doing a specific challenge.

Now, the dps slots are pretty flexible, however one thing can be said for sure – they are supposed to be fully offensive. Their survivability is ensured by the healer so any sacrifices made for the sake of their own survival become not just pointless, but counter-productive. You won’t see a team disagree on that either.

mygamingid.5816:

If raid meta is the only/best/safest way to do anything in GW2, why do so many teams complete raids without it? Teams complete them shorthanded, carrying buyers, without the raid meta comp, without the raid meta gear, and without the raid meta rotation in plenty of time. Teams even disagree on what the meta is.

The raid meta is great for maximum DPS, but does nothing else. If you’re only trained to the meta, you might think that nothing else could work, because that’s how it’s presented by many players. The meta has taken on an undeserved cultlike reverence that ignores reality (lots of options work, many much more consistently, none as quickly). Players will kick others over a difference of less than 0.1% theoretical DPS. You’ll lose more than that sneezing mid-rotation.

Using a skill at the wrong time, even blowing an entire rotation, won’t wipe a raid. That’s a fiction that’s held back the raiding community. Ignoring or failing a mechanic will wipe a raid and that’s just about it. There are DPS checks, but they’re set far below what’s provided by the raid meta.

Trusting a player to be good with their build is fine. Demanding that they play another build that they may not know at all hurts the effort more than allowing an off-meta build. Failure is almost always due to failing mechanics, not DPS checks. CC checks can also cause failure and building for more CC can help there. It’ll drop your DPS (you’ll still have plenty), but you’ll be more likely to succeed.

If you’re not going to trust a player, don’t put them in a critical role. I don’t care if it’s what the spec normally does in a particular raid. Let them focus on mechanics. Their gear won’t matter unless it’s particularly egregious.

Exactly so, this is a balanced viewpoint, some raiders are too tunnel visioned to see beyond ‘meta’ and dps, its not even arrogance, they clearly just don’t have the capability to empathize with others or self reflect ( I suspect they have built their persona around being a ‘top player’ – a sid effect of the dps meter race/performance measurement that is often abused), but its encouraging to see this viewpoint.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Exactly so, this is a balanced viewpoint, some raiders are too tunnel visioned to see beyond ‘meta’ and dps, its not even arrogance, they clearly just don’t have the capability to empathize with others or self reflect ( I suspect they have built their persona around being a ‘top player’ – a sid effect of the dps meter race/performance measurement that is often abused), but its encouraging to see this viewpoint.

I’d feel better about supporting the meta if every meta team succeeded and every non-meta team failed. Tons of meta teams fail and tons of non-meta teams succeed, so the meta build requirement just isn’t that relevant. Builds are way down the list of factors why raids are won or lost.

mygamingid.5816:

I’d feel better about supporting the meta if every meta team succeeded and every non-meta team failed. Tons of meta teams fail and tons of non-meta teams succeed, so the meta build requirement just isn’t that relevant. Builds are way down the list of factors why raids are won or lost.

Oh, because everything must be either black or white. And every chance ever is 50-50. Degrees and shades do not exist.

Talk all you want. Meta increases your chances, and not by a small amount. I know it, because I’ve experienced it.

Feanor.2358:

mygamingid.5816:

I’d feel better about supporting the meta if every meta team succeeded and every non-meta team failed. Tons of meta teams fail and tons of non-meta teams succeed, so the meta build requirement just isn’t that relevant. Builds are way down the list of factors why raids are won or lost.

Oh, because everything must be either black or white. And every chance ever is 50-50. Degrees and shades do not exist.

Talk all you want. Meta increases your chances, and not by a small amount. I know it, because I’ve experienced it.

Did you even read what he said? No-one is saying the meta builds are not the most efficient, efficiency is important in your head, not everyone’s head, were not all obsessed with dps. Poor players playing meta is worse than good players playing non meta.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Feanor.2358:

mygamingid.5816:

I’d feel better about supporting the meta if every meta team succeeded and every non-meta team failed. Tons of meta teams fail and tons of non-meta teams succeed, so the meta build requirement just isn’t that relevant. Builds are way down the list of factors why raids are won or lost.

Oh, because everything must be either black or white. And every chance ever is 50-50. Degrees and shades do not exist.

Talk all you want. Meta increases your chances, and not by a small amount. I know it, because I’ve experienced it.

Did you even read what he said? No-one is saying the meta builds are not the most efficient, efficiency is important in your head, not everyone’s head, were not all obsessed with dps. Poor players playing meta is worse than good players playing non meta.

Now read carefully the post you just quoted. And find where I used the term “dps”, or even referred to it.

My reply was in response to a statement about success and failure. However, said statement is flawed and I pointed out how and why. Who’s tunnel visioning now? You’re not even reading what I wrote, you’re knee-jerking.

Exactly because groups can fail and succeed regardless of their builds and compositions the point made is irrelevant

Feanor.2358:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Feanor.2358:

mygamingid.5816:

I’d feel better about supporting the meta if every meta team succeeded and every non-meta team failed. Tons of meta teams fail and tons of non-meta teams succeed, so the meta build requirement just isn’t that relevant. Builds are way down the list of factors why raids are won or lost.

Oh, because everything must be either black or white. And every chance ever is 50-50. Degrees and shades do not exist.

Talk all you want. Meta increases your chances, and not by a small amount. I know it, because I’ve experienced it.

Did you even read what he said? No-one is saying the meta builds are not the most efficient, efficiency is important in your head, not everyone’s head, were not all obsessed with dps. Poor players playing meta is worse than good players playing non meta.

Now read carefully the post you just quoted. And find where I used the term “dps”, or even referred to it.

My reply was in response to a statement about success and failure. However, said statement is flawed and I pointed out how and why. Who’s tunnel visioning now? You’re not even reading what I wrote, you’re knee-jerking.

Exactly because groups can fail and succeed regardless of their builds and compositions the point made is irrelevant

Your referring to meta, you have constantly related that to dps and efficiency and that’s was not what he was referring to, that’s all your type of raider ever thinks about – as evidenced clearly in this thread. Have the courage of your convictions and stop playing with words.

Einlanzer.1627:

AliamRationem.5172:

@Feanor

What you say really isn’t accurate. Vitality and toughness are only useless under two conditions: 1) When the attack that killed you in full glass still would have killed you in gear with vitality/toughness – i.e. pass/fail mechanics, which are quite rare in open world, and 2) When you make no errors that would have killed you in full glass. From ele’s reputation as the “squishiest” class, it’s pretty obvious a large number of ele players don’t meet this standard.

The same applies to your claim of it being safer to use full glass because faster kills present fewer chances for error. Faster kills do present fewer opportunities for error, but again this only makes you safer if you are less likely to die in the attempt.

To put it another way, in full glass you kill faster but you must make fewer errors. For many players in solo play, this is a bad bet when you could take longer to kill while having significantly greater margin for error.

Except it doesn’t really work that way, because in open world PvE play in particular, killing fast is your best defense. This is why almost no one is encouraged to use defensive stats.

I agree with the OP that Ele just feels too weak overall. I have trouble even beating groups of pocket raptors in the HoT maps when no other class I play has that much trouble. I don’t really know what the best solution is, other than to make their attunements other than fire more generally useful, which I think has been needed since launch.

Just an excuse to use my new-found ability to create really crappy quality gameplay videos. Please enjoy my latest: OMG! Pocket Raptors!

https://youtu.be/0uovXv6yVck

Anyway, when it comes to pocket raptors I definitely agree that a strong offense is the best defense!

vesica tempestas.1563:

Your referring to meta, you have constantly related that to dps and efficiency and that’s was not what he was referring to, that’s all your type of raider ever thinks about – as evidenced clearly in this thread. Have the courage of your convictions and stop playing with words.

I’m referring to meta because that’s what the post I’m replying to talks about – a meta vs non-meta comparison. Note that my reply was addressing the actual post and its contents. While your own reply to my post was generic criticism of my views and had nothing to do with either the point I was making or the original comparison. So, let me ask again – who’s tunnel-visioning now? Who’s showing personal bias and fails to adapt?

@AliamRationem:
Yeah, I never understood why people were having troubles with pocket raptors until I decided to map-complete HoT on other classes as well. Just Overloading Air has always been enough for me to deal with them. If the pack is unusually large they could get me downed, but I’d rally almost immediately, thanks to the ongoing Overload and the automatic Lava Font from Persisting Flames. The HPs in Maguuma are another story though.

Out side of what ever is going on here for the last few days ele and in turn weaver / tempest dose need a buff to there effects. Ele core is the balanced so it needs more dmg on its wepon as well as more support. Tempest needs stronger support but less dmg maybe a way to get barrier on players but less dmg from its overloads. Weaver needs more dmg from its burst skills as well its sword but it should not be able to get much support.