Guild Wars 2

Hey All!

Since showed on a stream 2 weeks ago, the 100 nades build are getting pretty popular in spvp and tpvp.

I have seen a lot of engineer in hotjoin in spvp, prolly people trying out this hot mama grenade destroyer.

For anyone that tried it, it will prolly be our first competitive build for a long time. Sure our Top Engineer in paid tournament used other build, but they were very few on the competitive scene, and they were prolly carried by their team.

Yesterday I was still thinking it wasn’t as good as people thought. But I checked some video, and rebuilded my 100 naders, and know I see how strong it is.

You can one shot a lot of people if you build glassy, and do it with AoE. Sure your AoiE won’t hit as hard on people around then your main target, but it will still deliver a pack.

You can miss a lot this combo, but once you get it well, it’s carnage. I’m still training it, but I saw an engineer that could pull it out of nowhere and destroy people. Once used, you can switch to toolkit + grenade kit for support. You also have another utility left as you like, so you can go for Revive elixir or other support.

My question is : Is it too strong?

Beware, I don’t think it’s a duel build. But as a support DPSers, it’s really really effective.

I don’t want to be like those DD Elem, bs thief and Shatter mesmer that act like : “hey it’s balanced, I don’t see ay issue”. I don’t feel one shotting people is good for the game, even if it’s by my favorite class.

I fear that this build might send the fury of Anet upon us. Everytime we had a descend build, we got nerfed. And with this one being “cheesy”, I fear it will be bad for us.

Also, I feel like I HAVE to be a 100 nade to be effective in WvW/PvP. It’s also useful in pve for the vuln stacking.

Each time I try another build, I feel gimped. What If I can do low damage with more survivality, when I can one shot people.

Personally, I would’nt mind a little tone down, if at the same thing they buff our other build. Like they buffed our toolkit, it used to be among our worse kit. Now I can’t run without it.

TL;DR : Buff our weak build, and balance our 100 nades build.

What’s your opinion about it?

My opinion on whether or not it’s balanced depends on where Thief burst ends up after the patch. If it’s untouched or only nerfed slightly, then 100 Nades is by far fine. As it stands in the current metagame, 100 Nades is in a great spot.

I disagree that it’s the only effective build in tPvP, but it’s fairly evident that unless I convince a streamer to give other builds a try that everything else is considered terrible no matter what discussion goes on here. While our Bunker builds are on the low side compared to an Ele/Guardian, we have an offensive condition build that is at least good as a Necro and is in my opinion better at even killing off a Bunker.

100 Nades is a very competitive build though, especially in comparison to all other non-Thief burst builds. It has sustained ranged damage, AoE, and the burst to deal with most targets. It has a ton of defensive utility while having glass cannon stats, and plenty of offensive utility as well. Personally I think it one ups the Hundred Blades build in a general sense, but Hundred Blades will still do more damage during the combo phase.

I don´t want to say that this setup needs a nerf but I´m no fan of 1combo-burst-builds, so I think that this should be tuned down (just a little bit >.<) and make other builds more viable.
instantly killing people may be awesome and maybe this combo IS hard to pull of, but it seems just broken… (I´m talking about every class out there, not just engi)

To be fair, it really only instant kills squishy Thieves, Mesmers, and Elementalists. The burst isn’t really that hard to setup though, and you easily can bluff a burst and switch to the other CC (Pull/Immob) to pull off the burst. That and even without CC the burst on a point during a team fight is still a lot of damage even if spread out.

@Cero

It is really fun I agree Man in WvW I feel like a thief, jump in, destroy someone, then slick shoes away! (Anyone else use slick shoes with that build? It’s amazing!)

But it will get boring over time, and it’s not fun for my target.

@Ayestes

When I make condition build engineer, I always feel like I’m missing something. Yeah that’s right, I’m missing epidemic like necromander. This skill is so amazing, I feel nud eon my cond pistol build!

It’s a build that have been there (even stronger back then) since day1.
It has a huge burst but any decent player knows how to avoid it, as it’s extremely predictable.
It’s very good @ plowing noobs but that’s not really something other builds can’t do.
The only thing that may be op vs good players is that engineers starts with a pretty high hp base even in glass cannon gear, and with elixir s and toolkit block you can still be pretty survivable against direct damaging builds.

However aoes are gonna get nerfed soon, that probably gonna include grenade barrage.
So….

@Iddiozzia

Yeah I fear our grenade barrage will be next in line for a nerf.

It has been out since release, but wasn’t popular until few weeks. Like many build for the engineer.

I used to think it was easy to avoid, but it’s a lot harder when you feint it. I can feint it with net shot jump shot, then magnetic pull, then slick shoe stun. 3 feint, which one will I combo? Hard to guess.

I just hate to be the class to one shot people. Game are not fun when we are one shotting each other.

I don’t think it’s a very beneficial build for engies—the build is strong but the playstyle is very similar to a hb warrior. It is a good build, maybe even a little stronger overall than a hb warrior as far as tournaments are concerned.

I feel like this build is similar to what a “fire elementalist” would be if it was viable to just stay in one element all the time. Let’s say there was one really strong fire attack that eles could use every 25 seconds or so, and if they just stay in fire attunement all the time they can try to position themselves well and gank someone with it. It might be an effective build, but it wouldn’t feel like an ele should.

Kardiamond.6952:

@Ayestes

When I make condition build engineer, I always feel like I’m missing something. Yeah that’s right, I’m missing epidemic like necromander. This skill is so amazing, I feel nud eon my cond pistol build!

(Note for those skimming the topic, this has nothing to do with 100 Nades so you may skip if you so desire.)

Heh, Epidemic is great I’ll agree. The only condition build I personally find useful (I love all these Pistol/Pistol Elixir builds, but they just rely too much on the terrible Pistol auto-attack so they lack damage) in tPvP is one with Grenades and Bombs to supplement it.

Poison uptime with Poison Volley and Poison Grenades are key in dealing with bunker builds, and the Chill Grenades are key on dealing with them after they blow their big condition removal.

Bombs are pivotal for point control in general, and even after the nerfs Smoke Bomb mitigates a large amount of damage. Incendiary Bomb and Confusion Bomb are also our highest sources of condition damage output in the game and can turn point battles around in no time.

Combined with a little Might stacking (which averages around 15 stacks even without rune specialization) and 12 cooldown related weapon abilities (most of which are damage focused) and you have a ton of damage. I’ve literally dropped some (terrible) Bunker Guardians in 5 seconds from just the condition and burst alone.

Now, I don’t get to play nearly as often as I used to before I had children and a career so I don’t get to play paids often at all nor do I have a competitive team to play with. But I do use it in whatever paids and frees I get in and it does the job of absolutely wrecking bunker builds very, very well. It’s also an amazing team fighter even without Epidemic, because the majority of it is AoE anyway. I will say though, an Epi Necro with a Condi-Overload Engi is pretty impressive.

NevirSayDie.6235:

I don’t think it’s a very beneficial build for engies—the build is strong but the playstyle is very similar to a hb warrior. It is a good build, maybe even a little stronger overall than a hb warrior as far as tournaments are concerned.

I feel like this build is similar to what a “fire elementalist” would be if it was viable to just stay in one element all the time. Let’s say there was one really strong fire attack that eles could use every 25 seconds or so, and if they just stay in fire attunement all the time they can try to position themselves well and gank someone with it. It might be an effective build, but it wouldn’t feel like an ele should.

I disagree that it’s anything remotely like an ele staying only in Fire attunement. The build rotates through Grenade Kit, Tool Kit, and Rifle constantly and utilizes all of the shortened tool belt skills pretty often.

Like someone already said, it kind of depends where game-balance goes. If ANet is content to allow other 1-shot builds to remain, regardless of how difficult they are to perform or how easy they are to avoid, then 100nades is fine. If, however, they address those builds, this build would need to be nerfed as well.

I hope that ANet does nerf this, along with all the other 1-shot type builds. That’s not a fun game to play, except for the people who enjoy being overpowered; usually also the people that convince themselves they’re all skill. But we don’t have to worry about them coming here to voice their opinions, since it’s kind of hard to type when your face is on the keyboard.

Ayestes.1273:

I disagree that it’s anything remotely like an ele staying only in Fire attunement. The build rotates through Grenade Kit, Tool Kit, and Rifle constantly and utilizes all of the shortened tool belt skills pretty often.

Fair enough. My thought was that all the grenade skills feel the same and the build relies heavily on landing the double grenade barrage, and does range pressure with grenades before and after that burst attempt. I realize that’s an over-simplification, though, just like it’s an over-simplification to say hb is nothing but rush/frenzy/hb.

Hi, new on the forums and new into the comunity, usually playing what “i build myself” and don’t know exactly what build is the “100 nade” build, never used granades and i’m curious.

Thanks.

There are plenty of 10 point trait adjustments and/or trait swaps, but here is one of the variants of a 100 Nades build.

http://www.intothemists.com/calc/?build=-V70;0B-sPVg0l6cQFx0;9;4TJ;0J46A38;535-L;2N0-Ewk2Ewk25BK (copy and paste the link if you are new to it all, gw2 forums doesn’t like long links)

Ayestes.1273:

There are plenty of 10 point trait adjustments and/or trait swaps, but here is one of the variants of a 100 Nades build.

http://www.intothemists.com/calc/?build=-V70;0B-sPVg0l6cQFx0;9;4TJ;0J46A38;535-L;2N0-Ewk2Ewk25BK (copy and paste the link if you are new to it all, gw2 forums doesn’t like long links)

Thanks.

@Serperucaz

With the build you have to specify the combo!

Get inside the ennemy (I mean closer then melee range, you have to be “inside” them") Throw your grenade barrage (Grenade toolbelt skill) and switch to grenade kit. Switching to grenade will produce another Grenade barrage.

You will have a grenade barrage of 8 grenade, and one of 6. Each one can crit for 1k 1.5k.

Why do you have to be inside? The kit refinement grenade barrage spread too much if you use it next to an ennemy. You’ll hit with few grenade. If you do it inside the ennemy, the grenade explod right away, right before spreading. Doing maximum damage.

I think what makes this kind of a gray issue is that we don’t really know where the line is in this game. What build is totally fair? Where is the build that is in a perfect place? Useful to new players, extremely powerful to great players.

If I was to give everyone in PvP a title from this list:

Terrible (Can’t kill anyone and bad tactics)
Decent (Sometimes gets kills, but generally dies quickly)
Good (Gets kills often, occasionally kills high ranked players, but most often just loses to anyone who’s great)
Great (Great tactics, gets lots of kills, hard to kill even with glass cannons)

I’d say I’m Good. To me, a good build should allow a Good player to at least stand a chance against a Great one, and should just about own everyone below them

That’s how this build feels to me. Really powerful, but great players are still going to be a challenge. If you stand still in PvP, that’s your fault.

Engineers need balanced builds that reward intelligent play, not one trick pony (like 100 grenades) or gimmick builds.

That can be said about most professions.

This is true.

Mif.3471:

Engineers need balanced builds that reward intelligent play, not one trick pony (like 100 grenades) or gimmick builds.

How is it a one trick pony? You have a spike, you have yanks, mobility, condition support/damage and you have medkit which can make holding points a lot easier for others (Lay down a bunch of those bandages before you leave).

It’s not gimmicky at all. If this is gimmicky, what isn’t?

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Mif.3471:

Engineers need balanced builds that reward intelligent play, not one trick pony (like 100 grenades) or gimmick builds.

How is it a one trick pony?

It’s designed around killing people with kit refinement cooldowns.

Mif.3471:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Mif.3471:

Engineers need balanced builds that reward intelligent play, not one trick pony (like 100 grenades) or gimmick builds.

How is it a one trick pony?

It’s designed around killing people with kit refinement cooldowns.

So? The Warrior is designed around killing people with a great sword attack. The Thief is built around going stealth and stabbing people. You just described the build.

This build can do a lot. Look past the basics.

Meh, I’ll agree to disagree

@Assassin

That’s why I think this build is over the board.

You only need 1 utility for the combo. So you have 2 free utility to support you the way you want.

You can Range Grenade people with a lot of Conditions damage.
You have a lot of defensive CD with toolkit and elixir S.
You have a free stomp.
You have a one shotting combo.
You have perma swiftness.
You have CC.

I’m not saying it’s worse then the other FotM build, but this build have a lot going on.

The combo could be toned down a bit, and our other build (turret, condition, BUNKER, even DS) buffed a bit.

LOL at this build being new. I thought this is what everyone ran in WvW for the most part. I’ve been playing it since launch. It’s not as good as it used to be. Grenade from refinement or whatever is on a CD which can be hit/miss if you switch kits to get speedy kits or switch from rifle and back to grenades when slowing people, so nerfing it would be pretty lol. Not to mention I use tool kit to drop box of nails or whatever when I am getting away and Slick Shoes is on CD.

Honestly, if you are running around waiting for someone to get up next to you so you can pull this off and not switching back and forth between kits/rifle/etc. you are probably pretty bad.

I doubt I’d sPVP with this build either.

Enji,

Do you mean it shares a CD between the kit refinement effect? Not sure I understand.

But from my experience, it doesn’t. I’m not sure 100>%, but never had that issue. Maybe because I don’t switch enought during a fight, i usually don’t too.

But anyway, heal kit has 0 cooldown, so I doubt it would make you miss your grenade.

I also used toolkit to pull people and combo them. So I really don’t think there is a shared CD. And even without the combo, you can win a fight.

If you go sPvP, it’s the paradise for 100 nade. In tPvP, didn’t do enought yet with this build. But Top Engineer seems to like it. Like Five Gauge who use it a lot.

If I net someone to kill them and switch back to grenade to aoe more people, the skill goes on CD. It’s (the kit refinement barrage) is not always available when I want it unless I don’t switch to grenade until someone is on my kitten This is also assuming I’m fighting in WvW and saving my grenade barrage for people in melee range….not usually. Sure, it’s nice to have when it’s available but it’s on CD a lot of the time just because of the nature at which I swap in and out of kits. Same with Box of Nails. If Slick Shoes and normal tool kit slow are on CD I’m praying that the kit refinement skill Box of Nails is available when I switch back to tool kit and block.

Well you need some drawback.

It doesn’t make one shotting people anymore fair

Kardiamond.6952:

Well you need some drawback.

It doesn’t make one shotting people anymore fair

Tell that to the thief and warrior. Besides, skilled players still absolutely destroy me in fights. If you die to this, it’s because you stood still and let me in. It’s no doubt a great spike and build, but I really don’t see it as OP.

Ayestes.1273:

(Note for those skimming the topic, this has nothing to do with 100 Nades so you may skip if you so desire.)

Heh, Epidemic is great I’ll agree. The only condition build I personally find useful (I love all these Pistol/Pistol Elixir builds, but they just rely too much on the terrible Pistol auto-attack so they lack damage) in tPvP is one with Grenades and Bombs to supplement it.

Poison uptime with Poison Volley and Poison Grenades are key in dealing with bunker builds, and the Chill Grenades are key on dealing with them after they blow their big condition removal.

Bombs are pivotal for point control in general, and even after the nerfs Smoke Bomb mitigates a large amount of damage. Incendiary Bomb and Confusion Bomb are also our highest sources of condition damage output in the game and can turn point battles around in no time.

Combined with a little Might stacking (which averages around 15 stacks even without rune specialization) and 12 cooldown related weapon abilities (most of which are damage focused) and you have a ton of damage. I’ve literally dropped some (terrible) Bunker Guardians in 5 seconds from just the condition and burst alone.

Now, I don’t get to play nearly as often as I used to before I had children and a career so I don’t get to play paids often at all nor do I have a competitive team to play with. But I do use it in whatever paids and frees I get in and it does the job of absolutely wrecking bunker builds very, very well. It’s also an amazing team fighter even without Epidemic, because the majority of it is AoE anyway. I will say though, an Epi Necro with a Condi-Overload Engi is pretty impressive.

I’m intrigued by this build you’re talking about. Have you posted the full thing somewhere? If not, would you mind sharing?

The Gates Assassin.9827:

How is it a one trick pony? You have a spike, you have yanks, mobility, condition support/damage and you have medkit which can make holding points a lot easier for others (Lay down a bunch of those bandages before you leave).

It’s not gimmicky at all. If this is gimmicky, what isn’t?

At first, I thought it was total cheese—now I’m seeing that there is some depth to it.

However, it’s a “one-trick pony” in that if you miss your double barrage, you have to re-position. If your “one trick” works, you win, and if not, you play ranged pressure until barrage comes off cooldown. It is also a “gimmick” in that it is extremely effective only under bizarre circumstances, and it’s hard for new players to understand what happened (in other words—why do you do more damage standing inside your opponent’s character model? Until it’s explained to someone, it will never “make sense”).

Maullus.1273:

I’m intrigued by this build you’re talking about. Have you posted the full thing somewhere? If not, would you mind sharing?

http://www.intothemists.com/calc/?build=-VRR;0B-Z-Vg0c-FQFx0;9;4T9-T-21A0;319A;1SN1;0o0-hoHAhoHA1Fv

I may actually write a guide about it, like I did with my Warrior Guide back in beta. For now though, I figure that above post describes a fair chunk of it already. The build is actually pretty variable as it stands. I’ve been testing out changes purposefully to see if anything else needs to be done.

Protection Injection, 20% Pistol CD Reduction, 20% Grenade/Bomb CD Reduction, and Geomancy Sigil for example are all things that I’ve played with before are are good choices. The jab of Might stacking is pretty recent, and I figured without Might runes it wouldn’t be that good. It ended up feeling really good regardless, and it still gets up to a decent size stack.

Basic combo depends on the opponent (and how accurate you are with Grenades), but the general concept for me is to lob my Grenades as I close in and then utilize the Chilled or Crippled (if I miss Freeze Grenades I’ll Glue Shot) target’s reduced speed to spam bombs all over their face. Use of Static Shot is incredibly important in dealing with burst damage, since Blind is basically the core defensive skill. Becoming incredibly fluent in changing kits is important, although I’ll admit when you are just starting out the build it’s probably okay just to spam all the cooldowns of each kit. Always lead with Freeze Grenades if you can, so the rest are incredibly easy to land. In general Grenades are super easy to land point blank as well. The biggest thing is simply learning how to land all the explosives, and when to use them.

What it lacks is a stun-breaker and perma-swiftness. It’s possible to trade out Elixir B for S, but then you completely lack swiftness. Besides, the lack of a stun breaker hasn’t really been that big of an issue for me with so many blinds. If I bring this out in WvW I’d run 2 Lyssa runes and Veggie Pizza for +100% condi duration.

After running several different variations of the “100 nades” build, I’ve come to these conclusions.

1) It is viable overall if you run with at least one other player.

2) High burst damage that basically sacrifices every single other thing we can and do offer to a team

Basically, when people mention how other professions do everything better than us, this type of build and thinking is the reason why. We are not meant for high-damage high-burst without sacrificing much more than other professions.

I’m convinced we are meant to be CC kings, and stability rules in tPvP. If we are not bunker, I now believe our role in tPvP, which is right now handicapped by ease of access to stability… is to neautralize a node without having to kill. We are potentially the best bunker-busters in the game. Anyway, I’m getting off topic, but there. Viable in a group if you must, but it is a rather gimmicky burst build, with even less survivability than Static Discharge in that it requires getting into melee+ range to do, and usually requires you to tether down your opponent enough to get the full potential.

aydenunited.5729:

After running several different variations of the “100 nades” build, I’ve come to these conclusions.

1) It is viable overall if you run with at least one other player.

2) High burst damage that basically sacrifices every single other thing we can and do offer to a team

Basically, when people mention how other professions do everything better than us, this type of build and thinking is the reason why. We are not meant for high-damage high-burst without sacrificing much more than other professions.

I agree with your points, but not your conclusion, Aydenunited. I don’t think those are problems with the build, but the class in general. Our traits/utilities are set up so that you can bring:
a.)Stun breaks
b.)Meaningful condition removal
c.)Versatility

Pick 2. Let me break it down…

Let’s assume that 1 kit +2 elixirs with 1 stunbreak and Cleansing Formula is the common set-up (kind of a logical leap, but bear with me here). Every class except ele has access to 2 sets of weapons, and this set-up is just another, more different way of achieving the level of versatility that other classes have by default. EVERY class can bring condition removal, stunbreak, group support, and some degree of control/downed support + bunker/burst in one build.

Now, let’s look at 2 kits and one other (most often, the stunbreak). First question is: do you try to fit Cleansing Formula in? Without it, you’re more or less sacrificing condition removal altogether. If you run with CF, the second question is: stunbreak or no? If you go with the stunbreak, your condition removal becomes… awkward since your stunbreak is a long cooldown elixir that is not ment to be spammed, the toolbelt skill has a similarly long CD and is also not ment to be spammed, and your heal… which is also something you save for the right moment. That leaves the H toolbelt with it’s moderate cooldown. If you go with something like elixir B for the short recharges, there goes your stunbreak. Healing Turret makes you less vulnerable to condition bombs, but weaker to CC.

CC is assumed in some of our set-ups (although it’s assumed in guardian greatsword and thief sword builds, ect.), but DEDICATED control options such as the mine, thumper turret, or slick shoes are a tough sell when we’re cramped for the essentials.

This build is making large sacrifices to burst, but large sacrifices are par for the course for this class.

NevirSayDie.6235:

At first, I thought it was total cheese—now I’m seeing that there is some depth to it.

However, it’s a “one-trick pony” in that if you miss your double barrage, you have to re-position. If your “one trick” works, you win, and if not, you play ranged pressure until barrage comes off cooldown. It is also a “gimmick” in that it is extremely effective only under bizarre circumstances, and it’s hard for new players to understand what happened (in other words—why do you do more damage standing inside your opponent’s character model? Until it’s explained to someone, it will never “make sense”).

It’s really more of a conventional build that happens to have a built-in gimmick, if you think about it. The utility choices are “logical” for this style of play. I’ve been running a Sigil of intelligence version for sPvP since they fixed the sigil bug (Sigil of Intel is pretty busted imo, but it’s non-synergy with Kit Refinement and Static Discharge keeps it from getting ugly). I feel that even with “the gimmick”, the build is in an ok place. There’s a reason that burst mesmers and thieves are part of the tPvP meta, but 100b warriors are not: class mechanics for mesmer and thief are an additional layer of protection and control. This build is more like 100b then thief or mesmer.

That being said, this build COULD get to be over the top depending on how the kit stat fix is ironed out (I know, I know, barrage uses rifle base damage), but that’s a “maybe”.

Important note about kit refinement grenade barrage
if you switch from rifle to grenade kit mid jumpshot your entire grenade barrage will hit with no spread. not sure how practical this is compared to walking into their character model and switching kits

aydenunited.5729:

After running several different variations of the “100 nades” build, I’ve come to these conclusions.

1) It is viable overall if you run with at least one other player.

2) High burst damage that basically sacrifices every single other thing we can and do offer to a team

Basically, when people mention how other professions do everything better than us, this type of build and thinking is the reason why. We are not meant for high-damage high-burst without sacrificing much more than other professions.

I’m convinced we are meant to be CC kings, and stability rules in tPvP. If we are not bunker, I now believe our role in tPvP, which is right now handicapped by ease of access to stability… is to neautralize a node without having to kill. We are potentially the best bunker-busters in the game. Anyway, I’m getting off topic, but there. Viable in a group if you must, but it is a rather gimmicky burst build, with even less survivability than Static Discharge in that it requires getting into melee+ range to do, and usually requires you to tether down your opponent enough to get the full potential.

Nailed it. 100nades is a good build, probably a little better than 100blades is overall. But I sure wish it weren’t the pinnacle of engineer achievements. We have so much fun stuff to theorycraft and play with, and we CAN do something that no other profession can do—approach any enemy bunker 1v1 and fully expect to have the node neutral in under 10 seconds. A build that’s so focused around landing 1 skillshot isn’t bad, necessarily—I just don’t feel like that’s what the profession was supposed to be.

My fear is that the few minor tweaks we need to bring the cc engi into the meta will be overlooked because, well, they have that grenade build already.

Ayestes.1273:

http://www.intothemists.com/calc/?build=-VRR;0B-Z-Vg0c-FQFx0;9;4T9-T-21A0;319A;1SN1;0o0-hoHAhoHA1Fv

Appreciate it.

One of the many things I love about Engineer is how distinct our different builds feel. Sure, some builds aren’t worth a red cent, but it’s immensely fun tinkering. I’ll definitely give this a try.

I was going to ask about the rationale behind 6/6 Nightmare, but after looking at the other +condition damage runes I think I get it.

Thanks again.

Kardiamond.6952:

Each time I try another build, I feel gimped. What If I can do low damage with more survivality, when I can one shot people.

TL;DR : Buff our weak build, and balance our 100 nades build.

What’s your opinion about it?

You pretty much gave the definition of what “overpowered” means right there. It’s not good if something is a way better choice than all the other potential options, and it’s bad for the game if it has to do with oneshotting. I’m always confused when I see -insert oneshot build user- argue that these builds are balanced and of course it’s always a L2p issue… dodging that 20k instant dmg. This game is an MMORPG, not a FPS…

Xolo.3580:

Kardiamond.6952:

Each time I try another build, I feel gimped. What If I can do low damage with more survivality, when I can one shot people.

TL;DR : Buff our weak build, and balance our 100 nades build.

What’s your opinion about it?

You pretty much gave the definition of what “overpowered” means right there. It’s not good if something is a way better choice than all the other potential options, and it’s bad for the game if it has to do with oneshotting. I’m always confused when I see -insert oneshot build user- argue that these builds are balanced and of course it’s always a L2p issue… dodging that 20k instant dmg. This game is an MMORPG, not a FPS…

In gw1, you’d be right, but now we’re equipped to handle things like that.

We have dodging, blocking, invulnerability, protection, blind and aegis to make it so the entire thing does nothing to us.

Also, where is this “Only damage and nothing else” coming from? Elixir S = you can stomp things super easy. Tool kit = Pulling, snaring and defense. Grenade Kit = AoE damage from REALLY far away. Rifle = Bunkering and snare. Medkit = prepping points with a ton of bandages, speed buffs and condition removal.

All of this with a really good AoE spike. How is this not a dream build?

Maullus.1273:

Ayestes.1273:

http://www.intothemists.com/calc/?build=-VRR;0B-Z-Vg0c-FQFx0;9;4T9-T-21A0;319A;1SN1;0o0-hoHAhoHA1Fv

I was going to ask about the rationale behind 6/6 Nightmare, but after looking at the other +condition damage runes I think I get it.

Gotta remember that the 4/6 Nightmare gives +20% condition duration (tool tip lies) which is key to getting +50% total. After that, may as well finish off the set. Besides whenever that fear procs it’s an easy game over for whomever who are fighting, and the 5/6 is a free 100 condition damage as well. That’s at least why I go after it.

Ah, I did not realize that 4/6 was +20% duration. I was wondering why the build was sitting at 40%, so close to that threshold. Absolutely makes sense. Ran with it, very briefly, last night and had a lot of fun.

COUGH 100 nades.. honestly this term pales in comparison with 100 blades, . . . Don’t get me wrong, Grenade kit is serious dps, some awesome aoes here. Just, its a dumb coin in comparison with the warrior’s skill. :< Is it good? sure, if you have time to sit in the kit. Otherwise you may be traiting (all for one kit), and using it sparingly. With grenades your runnin a risk regardless!

Kardiamond.6952:

My question is : Is it too strong?

Well based on watching what happens to a very good player (Teldo) when this build goes up against good teams, the answer would be no, for a few reasons, but the biggest ones are the lack of ability to disenage and the lack of ability to deliver the burst whilst under pressure, in the way burst thieves/mesmers/eles can, so what happens when playing a good team, is this build gets focused / trained out of the game.

So basically the same story as any other engineer build, there are other classes that do the job better and a side serving of AOE support DPS doesn’t make up for that.

Kardiamond.6952:

TL;DR : Buff our weak build, and balance our 100 nades build.

What’s your opinion about it?

The real question that needs to be asked, that underlies all of the issues that classes in this game have, is why are we forced to use a singular build that can draw so much attention to need being nerfed at all?

The problem is not that 100nades is good or bad, it in and of itself is a correct use of the game mechanics, the problem is that the game mechanics for Engineers force people like yourself (and this isn’t a negative thing for you, just for Engineers in general) to use one build because without it they don’t feel as if they can contribute meaningfully.

We need not ask whether it’s good or bad, we need to ask the GW2 team to consider doing an overhaul of Engineer in accordance with the current bug list and the intended design of the class. Only then will we have multiple useful builds that will allow people freedom instead of being forced in to glass cannon suicide bomber roles in PvP areas.

Sylosi.6503:

Kardiamond.6952:

My question is : Is it too strong?

Well based on watching what happens to a very good player (Teldo) when this build goes up against good teams, the answer would be no, for a few reasons, but the biggest ones are the lack of ability to disenage and the lack of ability to deliver the burst whilst under pressure, in the way burst thieves/mesmers/eles can, so what happens when playing a good team, is this build gets focused / trained out of the game.

So basically the same story as any other engineer build, there are other classes that do the job better and a side serving of AOE support DPS doesn’t make up for that.

When you’re being heavily focused, that’s where the l2p factor comes in. (Not suggesting anyone l2p.) Elixir S, gear block, call for peels. Have an escape plan in mind, lay your double box of nails at a bottleneck, and spin camera, overcharge shot any aggressive melee, combo this guy if possible – if not, lob the chill grenade. You can cover a lot of ground during this time, further overextending your enemies. If the train on your tail is getting doubled over by your allies, and they try to retreat, magnet one back to you from 1200 range and watch as your team sodomizes him.

If you’re a survivalist you can be a pretty huge asset to your team, if not, then perhaps another class is in order. From a ledge, I feel a 100nade engi is on par if not superior to a shortbow thief – if you have to, then that’s the plan.

Chaith.8256:

Sylosi.6503:

Kardiamond.6952:

My question is : Is it too strong?

Well based on watching what happens to a very good player (Teldo) when this build goes up against good teams, the answer would be no, for a few reasons, but the biggest ones are the lack of ability to disenage and the lack of ability to deliver the burst whilst under pressure, in the way burst thieves/mesmers/eles can, so what happens when playing a good team, is this build gets focused / trained out of the game.

So basically the same story as any other engineer build, there are other classes that do the job better and a side serving of AOE support DPS doesn’t make up for that.

When you’re being heavily focused, that’s where the l2p factor comes in. (Not suggesting anyone l2p.) Elixir S, gear block, call for peels. Have an escape plan in mind, lay your double box of nails at a bottleneck, and spin camera, overcharge shot any aggressive melee, combo this guy if possible – if not, lob the chill grenade. You can cover a lot of ground during this time, further overextending your enemies. If the train on your tail is getting doubled over by your allies, and they try to retreat, magnet one back to you from 1200 range and watch as your team sodomizes him.

If you’re a survivalist you can be a pretty huge asset to your team, if not, then perhaps another class is in order. From a ledge, I feel a 100nade engi is on par if not superior to a shortbow thief – if you have to, then that’s the plan.

^ This. I feel that out of all the glass cannon type builds in this game, we have the most (believe it or not) diverse set of skills. You have pretty awesome burst on around a 20 second CD, defensive options with Tool Kit, guaranteed finishers with Elixir S and it’s Toss toolbelt skill, good long range damage with rifle auto attack and you have the unique position of being the only profession that can kill the trebuchet in Khylo by lobbing ‘nades off the top of the wall outside it. I’m still getting used to the playstyle, and I’m by no means a pro, but the potential for this build is far beyond other glass style roamers IMO. I think it’s good for engi, as it finally gives us a high burst roamer spec that, when brought to a team fight, can help decimate enemies in seconds.

Chaith.8256:

Sylosi.6503:

Kardiamond.6952:

My question is : Is it too strong?

Well based on watching what happens to a very good player (Teldo) when this build goes up against good teams, the answer would be no, for a few reasons, but the biggest ones are the lack of ability to disenage and the lack of ability to deliver the burst whilst under pressure, in the way burst thieves/mesmers/eles can, so what happens when playing a good team, is this build gets focused / trained out of the game.

So basically the same story as any other engineer build, there are other classes that do the job better and a side serving of AOE support DPS doesn’t make up for that.

When you’re being heavily focused, that’s where the l2p factor comes in. (Not suggesting anyone l2p.) Elixir S, gear block, call for peels. Have an escape plan in mind, lay your double box of nails at a bottleneck, and spin camera, overcharge shot any aggressive melee, combo this guy if possible – if not, lob the chill grenade. You can cover a lot of ground during this time, further overextending your enemies. If the train on your tail is getting doubled over by your allies, and they try to retreat, magnet one back to you from 1200 range and watch as your team sodomizes him.

If you’re a survivalist you can be a pretty huge asset to your team, if not, then perhaps another class is in order. From a ledge, I feel a 100nade engi is on par if not superior to a shortbow thief – if you have to, then that’s the plan.

Which doesn’t really address what I stated, you are largely describing surviving, that is not the same as disengaging, other classes can disengage much, much quicker (and then subsequently re-enage whilst this build is still running round corners trying to disengage) it is a really easy build to harrass out of the game.

I’l also add other issues:

- The burst is harder to deliver / easier to avoid (or negate) than thief, mes, etc, the burst requires you to stand in the enemy and as such the slightest thing can disrupt this, they can also see you coming and in similar vein to 100b they know what you are going to do, then on top of that the two primary skills you use to help you apply the burst are pretty obivious / relatively easy to avoid (net shot / magnet).

- If you want to actually use the grenade kit for either support DPS or you want the chill, it will at times mean you have to sacrifice half your burst as you have just put the GB on kit swap on cooldown for 20 secs.

- As is often the case with the engi, you have options, but in actual practice those options are more restrictive because of relatively long cooldowns. So for example you can say it has a super stomp with exlixir S, but then that is also a big defensive cooldown, so you can’t have both in a 60 sec period, same goes for toss skill. Now if I compare that to my thief, I can nearly always stealth stomp, or my mesmer which has so many defensive options (blinks, dazes, invurn, stealth, illusions, etc) that I can afford to save a stealth or f4 for a stomp.

However, saying all that, I’ve clicked the follow button for your stream on Twitch, so I am quite open to having my mind changed on whether this build can do as good a job against good teams as some other classes burst builds. (I watched some of your stream the other day, but it was hotjoin sPvP, so it was a bit meaningless in terms of how good this build is, as you are very good and most people in hot join are not).

Engineer is missing a solo disengage like ‘ride the lightning’ or ‘shadowstep’ or ‘charge’ yeah. Swiftness on demand and Jump shotting away usually does the trick to deter enemies. Toss elixir S if you’re desperate. Much more than the poor necro & guardian has. Slightly better disengaging abilities than the ranger too. But honestly, I don’t find myself trying to completely drop combat that often! Kiting to a more advantageous position until my medkit tops me and resuming from range is the usual. Using your team is essential more so than disengaging alone for engineers.

EDIT: I feel like Mesmer, Warrior, Ele combo burst is just as avoidable as 100nade burst – they all take a defensive CD to negate and have huge tells.

Illusionary leap before clone swap (maybe I should dodge/block/invuln now?) The updraft . The bulls rush _. I say that thieves have the ability to close the gap and instantly land their burst from out of camera distance making that pretty hard to avoid.

Honestly, what DPS class lands their combo 100% of the time? If you’re a warrior who spams his bulls rush frenzy 100b on cooldown, on opener, you’re going to have a bad day. Engineer isn’t just an easymode 1shot either, it’s like a defensive CD chess game. I don’t feel engineers are shafted in this respect – especially since we can rifle 4 knockdown into a net, or elite drop a 2s stun into net turret, into net shot if someone really needs to die. A 100nade engineer combo set up with immobilize guarantees the use of a defensive CD – that’s pretty good for a 21s cd. I say practice, practice, practice.

Great build! Trying it out now. Good stuff

In regards to Kit Refinement and Tool Kit, however, I noticed that I am not dropping an ‘extra’ Box of Nails. Anyone else having issues like this?

In the spirit of the original post, what does this do to those of us who don’t want to jump on the band wagon and insist on playing the “gimp” builds. The rest of us still can’t effectively win an encounter against most opponents, and making the Engineer look like a viable class keeps us from getting any attention ….. in theory.