Guild Wars 2

I’ve been bouncing around alot of specs for PVE dungeons and solo. I’ve honestly found EVERYTHING to have laughable damage compared to grenadier spec.

So saying that…I’m about to start work exotic gear. I need to know what people think.

Power or Condition?

power for sure
/15char

To be 100% sure of my claims that condition damage grenades weren’t as strong as power-crit grenades, I did a test. I did 5 attempts of a target dummy with each build for a total of ten attempts, the experiment went like this;

Traits were;

-30 in explosives, taking shrapnel (would take incendiary for power-crit build, but for the sake of testing, I didn’t), short fuse, which favours condition damage and grenadier.

-30 in firearms to max out condition damage, even if in a real build I wouldn’t, due to synergy between 10 alchemy and 10 tools. Vulnerability on crit wasn’t taken as it would favour power-crit build.

-10 points in alchemy avoiding the crit damage from tools.

This test is basically done in favour of condition damage, as I could squeeze some more damage (and I do in my actual builds) from the power-crit build, but again for the sake of testing I used this set-up.

Damage rotation consisted of: shrapnel grenade first, chill grenade, poison grenade (which doesn’t do much for a direct damage build), four ‘normal grenades’, if still not dead, shrapnel again followed by ‘normal grenades’ until golem’s death. This was all done on the highest armoured dummy (heavy golem).

Power-crit stats: 3,273 attack, 49% crit, 170% crit damage, 300 condition damage and 30% condition duration. Rune of the Ogre was used and Zerker amulet with Zerker jewel.

1. 7.8
2. 7.6
3. 7.7
4. 8.1
5. 7.5

Average time to kill. 7.74 seconds

Condition damage stats: 2,829, 18% crit, 150% crit damage, 1,405 condition damage, 30% condition duration. Rune of the afflicted was used, Carrion amulet with Carrion jewel.

1. 8.8
2. 8.6
3. 8.5
4. 8.3
5. 8.9

Average time to kill. 8.62 seconds.

This is by no-means conclusive, but it illustrates my point accurately. As you can see the condition damage isn’t far behind, but considering the entire test was done in favour of condition damage to the point where I used runes I wouldn’t normally, traits I wouldn’t normally, attacked the heaviest dummy, used a rotation that favours conditions, it in reality would be a larger gap if you factor in grenade barrage as well. You do net an extra 3k Hp though.

From another thread.

Basically in really long fights you might be able to close that gap, but It seems power-crit will always do more DPS if specced into it appropriately.

Edited for clarity, missing an important line, which I cut from the original post (by accident), may clear some issues up, apologies, I realise now some of the confusion may have stemmed from this.

@RapBreon.9836
Direct testing has a lot of flaws.
In fact, I’d say your whole test is complete flawed:
First you choose Carrion stuff for your C. damage test, you basically delete a dps stat from your stuff and wondered why you killed things slower.
Your choice of traits is stupid, short fuse not working with grenadier at the moment and choosing sharpnel over incendiary powder, the burning condition having the highest dps of all.
Not taking Precise Sight and 10 points in tools is also stupid, OP asked a straight question, “what’s better between power and C. dam”; to find a true answer, saying that “you’re favoring one spec or the other” is totally backward logic (and you’re wrong, you’re skewing both specs as I said earlier).
Your rotation, adding Freeze Grenade is totally useless to a dps test since they do the exact same damage as the #1 grenades, the chill condition not doing any damge on its own.
All that added to the fact that you used a “time to kill” test over a grand total of 10 tests and your results don’t mean anything.

If anything grenades scale with stats like this:
Direct damage from power: 50% for all 3 grenades (78% for all 6 grenades from the toolbelt)
Bleeding from C.dam: 5% per stack per second
Poison from C.dam: 7.5% per second
Burning from C.dam: 25% per second
Precision increases the value of power by 2.5% per 100 (+5% crit) at 150% crit damage (base value)
Crit damage value is harder to calculate so I’ll leave it to other people.

Carrion gives power, from previous testing power gives more raw damage than rabid. Rampager I never use, because if I’m making a condition damage build, I’d take the amulet that give the most condition damage.

The idea was to test both ends of the scale, not a hybrid. Which Rampager lends itself to being. Rabid and Carrion have a very obvious condition damage focus.

Power-crit builds favour the tool belt skill exclusively, if I had of used that in the testing it would’ve skewed the results.

Short fuse not working would’ve meant I’d have to take explosive powder, which means it would’ve given an advantage to the power-crit build anyway. Didn’t realise however Short fuse wasn’t working however.

I already explained precise sights, it benefits a power-crit build as vulnerability doesn’t apply to conditions, this test was done in favour of condition damage, as I mentioned. I didn’t want to buff direct damage anymore than was needed so as to keep things even. This test was also done before the question.

Burning isn’t applied by the grenades without incendiary powder, which I wouldn’t be taking unless I ran rabid, which I wouldn’t run because it does less dps per nade than Carrion. Bleeding on a cooldown can not be applied in large enough quantities, without it being on a very long fight for it to catch a power-crit build in DPS.

If Freeze grenade does the exact same damage, then it doesn’t matter that I used it, it doesn’t modify the results in anyway. I did it anyway because in a fight you would use and it still does damage, unlike flash bangs.

Not saying my test was perfect, I did say It is not conclusive but it lends itself to power-crit being a superior set-up. The whole idea of the test was to give as many advantages to a condition damage build as I could with the focus being on condition damage to see if it could get close to power-crit, it can’t, a proper power-crit kills in less than 7 seconds easily (my actual build does it in 6.5 on average).

Edit: The only difference in dps stats is the 20% crit damage, and carrion giving 3k HP, the rest of the DPS stats are on the whole evenly distributed. In hind-sight I should’ve used Knight’s, but condition damage builds might not run crit (I know I wouldn’t) I’d run power, so it’s not a huge deal.

Edit2: I might want to reiterate, this was from another thread prior to this one, this test wasn’t done to directly answer the OP’s question, it was done to answer mine, chill out.

RapBreon.9836:

Carrion gives power, from previous testing power gives more raw damage than rabid. Rampager I never use, because if I’m making a condition damage build, I’d take the amulet that give the most condition damage.

The idea was to test both ends of the scale, not a hybrid. Which Rampager lends itself to being. Rabid and Carrion have a very obvious condition damage focus.

As I said it’s completely useless in a direct test because you can’t separate the direct damage from the condition damage ever, period.

While I don’t doubt that you’re trying to be helpful, your results are ultimately meaningless and misleading.

Power for certain. The only reason to even consider going with a condition build for grenades is in PvP where targets will be moving around constantly, and even then it’s still fairly pointless. The only real beneficiary is Shrapnel Grenade, Poison seems to scale really, really poorly from the testing I’ve done over the past few days. It seems like the skill is meant to be used for the combo field rather than to do direct damage.

Grenade’s #1 skill does a ton of damage in power/precision/crit damage gear if you can spam it on stationary targets.

I would go for condition damage crit build and rabid amulet, mostly because I like condition damage and good amounts of thoughness. the grenade kit already has 2 damage conditions in his kit. you also throw 3 grenades with grenadier thus have 3 chances to proc on crit conditions with each skill.

conditions with grenades are very potent.
incendiary powder, napalm specialst and 30 points in explosions give you a 3s burn.
30 points in explosions and proper runes give you a 8 second bleed from shrapnel grenade. the proc from sharpshooter would last 5 seconds. just aim for atleast 50% crit chance and you apply one 5s bleed every second ability statistically from sharpshooter + the bleed from shrapnel.

Maderas.9741:

The only real beneficiary is Shrapnel Grenade, Poison seems to scale really, really poorly from the testing I’ve done over the past few days. It seems like the skill is meant to be used for the combo field rather than to do direct damage.

condition damage always scales the same on every ability. you just dont have the proper equipment for a condition damage build.

CptCosmic.3156:

proper runes give you a 8 second bleed from shrapnel grenade.

Shrapnel Grenade’s bleed base duration is 12 seconds, don’t know where you’re getting those 8 seconds from but it seems you’re mistaken.

And it looks like you’re wrong with sharpnel+sharpshooter calculations as well.

Minilys.4765:

RapBreon.9836:

Carrion gives power, from previous testing power gives more raw damage than rabid. Rampager I never use, because if I’m making a condition damage build, I’d take the amulet that give the most condition damage.

The idea was to test both ends of the scale, not a hybrid. Which Rampager lends itself to being. Rabid and Carrion have a very obvious condition damage focus.

As I said it’s completely useless in a direct test because you can’t separate the direct damage from the condition damage ever, period.

While I don’t doubt that you’re trying to be helpful, your results are ultimately meaningless and misleading.

It shows that the grenades scale better with power and crit, rather than power and condition damage. I know I couldn’t ever separate them, but I would never need to, because grenades are always going to have a direct damage component.

It case it wasn’t clear, the entire point of the test, was to give as much weight to the condition damage portion of the grenade kit as I could, and test it against the direct damage component, leading to what scales better, overall.

Minilys.4765:

CptCosmic.3156:

proper runes give you a 8 second bleed from shrapnel grenade.

Shrapnel Grenade’s bleed base duration is 12 seconds, don’t know where you’re getting those 8 seconds from but it seems you’re mistaken.

And it looks like you’re wrong with sharpnel+sharpshooter calculations as well.

I actually meant 20seconds, I dont know why I wrote 8 =D

and my calculations are right:
30% from explosives tree
+15% 2x krait runes
+15% 2x afflicted runes
+10% 2x lyssa runes
=> +70%
sharpshooter 3s +70% =>5s
shrapnel 12s +70% => 20s

grenadier throws 3 nades thus statistically you get 3 crits every 2nd grenade toss with 50% crit chance. that means statistically you have 0.99 grenades proc a bleed every 2nd grenade toss. if you have slightly more then 50% crit then you get atleast 1 bleed proc every second grenade toss statistically.

RapBreon.9836:

It shows that the grenades scale better with power and crit, rather than power and condition damage.

No they don’t, I gave the scaling values in my first post, I really can’t get more into the basics than this, and even then you can only get a real answer when you factor in a lot a things including but not limited to, gear (specifically the stats on them as well as runes used), specs, traits, target’s armor (people forget that thoughness reduce direct damage but not condition damage) and probably other thing I’m not thinking about right now.

CptCosmic.3156:

and my calculations are right:
30% from explosives tree
+15% 2x krait runes
+15% 2x afflicted runes
+10% 2x lyssa runes
=> +70%
sharpshooter 3s +70% =>5s
shrapnel 12s +70% => 20s

grenadier throws 3 nades thus statistically you get 3 crits every 2nd grenade toss with 50% crit chance. that means statistically you have 0.99 grenades proc a bleed every 2nd grenade toss. if you have slightly more then 50% crit then you get atleast 1 bleed proc every second grenade toss statistically.

I didn’t mean the duration but the proc chance:
(Let’s pretend proc chances add for the sake of simplicity)
You throw 3 grenades per second (spamming only #1 let’s not add poison grenade or grenade barrage, again for the sake of simplicity)
With Sharpnel (trait) you get a flat 6% per grenade so 18% chance per cast to bleed.
With Sharpshooter you have a 30% chance on a crit to bleed; at 50% crit that’s 15% chance per grenade, totalling 45% per cast.
So at 1 cast per second (or 3 grenades) at 50% crit, your chance to inflict a bleed, either from Sharpshooter or Sharpnel is 63%.

Minilys.4765:

CptCosmic.3156:

and my calculations are right:
30% from explosives tree
+15% 2x krait runes
+15% 2x afflicted runes
+10% 2x lyssa runes
=> +70%
sharpshooter 3s +70% =>5s
shrapnel 12s +70% => 20s

grenadier throws 3 nades thus statistically you get 3 crits every 2nd grenade toss with 50% crit chance. that means statistically you have 0.99 grenades proc a bleed every 2nd grenade toss . if you have slightly more then 50% crit then you get atleast 1 bleed proc every second grenade toss statistically.

I didn’t mean the duration but the proc chance:
(Let’s pretend proc chances add for the sake of simplicity)
You throw 3 grenades per second (spamming only #1 let’s not add poison grenade or grenade barrage, again for the sake of simplicity)
With Sharpnel (trait) you get a flat 6% per grenade so 18% chance per cast to bleed.
With Sharpshooter you have a 30% chance on a crit to bleed; at 50% crit that’s 15% chance per grenade, totalling 45% per cast.
So at 1 cast per second (or 3 grenades) at 50% crit, your chance to inflict a bleed, either from Sharpshooter or Sharpnel is 63%.

i didnt included shrapnel trait into the calculation. with just 51% crit chance every second grenade toss applies a 5s bleed with that setup (6 nades with grenadier * 0.51 * 0.33 => 1,0098)

Minilys.4765:

RapBreon.9836:

It shows that the grenades scale better with power and crit, rather than power and condition damage.

No they don’t, I gave the scaling values in my first post, I really can’t get more into the basics than this, and even then you can only get a real answer when you factor in a lot a things including but not limited to, gear (specifically the stats on them as well as runes used), specs, traits, target’s armor (people forget that thoughness reduce direct damage but not condition damage) and probably other thing I’m not thinking about right now.

Well I did choose the heaviest dummy to once again favour condition damage, ultimately you’d see a bigger spread, on super tanks condition damage might be more useful, but on lighter targets you will be more useful.

I don’t even understand what your scaling values were based on, it just seemed like arbitrary numbers to me. Unless you mean 50% of power is converted into direct grenade damage, etc. it wasn’t explained sufficiently. Which still doesn’t really detract from my tests which are practicable combat situations.

I also stated runes, etc. Ogre being the most common DD rune set and afflicted giving me the best condition damage + duration (even if I wouldn’t use them).

CptCosmic.3156:

i didnt included shrapnel trait into the calculation. with just 51% crit chance every second grenade toss applies a 5s bleed with that setup (6 nades with grenadier * 0.51 * 0.33 => 1,0098)

You throw 3 grenades per second, not 6. Unless you’re talking underwater.

RapBreon.9836:

I don’t even understand what your scaling values were based on, it just seemed like arbitrary numbers to me. Unless you mean 50% of power is converted into direct grenade damage, etc. it wasn’t explained sufficiently.

That’s exactly what I meant.
50% of your power is added to direct grenade damage.
50% of your condition damage is added to burning damage per second.
5% of your condition damage is added to bleeding damage per second per stack.
7.5% of your condition damage is added to poison damage per second.

And again you didn’t factor in Burning with your runes, which, as I already said, is the best dps condition. You’re just stuck in your own parameters without seeing beyond. You’re applying a single setting to try to answer a broad question. It’s like saying a car is safe because you couldn’t shatter its windshield by throwing nerf balls at it during a test.

Minilys.4765:

RapBreon.9836:

I don’t even understand what your scaling values were based on, it just seemed like arbitrary numbers to me. Unless you mean 50% of power is converted into direct grenade damage, etc. it wasn’t explained sufficiently.

That’s exactly what I meant.
50% of your power is added to direct grenade damage.
50% of your condition damage is added to burning damage per second.
5% of your condition damage is added to bleeding damage per second per stack.
7.5% of your condition damage is added to poison damage per second.

And again you didn’t factor in Burning with your runes, which, as I already said, is the best dps condition. You’re just stuck in your own parameters without seeing beyond.

Ironically that’s what I’m thinking about you. Why would I build for burning without reliable application? The grenade kit itself does not apply burning, it only procs from one talent to which I did not have sufficient crit, if I did have sufficient crit, I would have had far, far, far less direct grenade damage which is less dps anyway and less pistol damage (which is important as well for a condition build).

I can tell you this though; 50% of condition damage does not apply to burning, I have never seen burning tick for 1k+ (base is roughly 300ish somewhere). And your scaling numbers don’t detract from what I’m saying, and I’m yet to receive an explanation on how they do. This is about the kit and it’s ability to apply conditions in a meaningful damage applicative way. Not condition damage versus direct damage in general. This is about practicable application and damage in a combat situation, so I emulated them as closely as possible and measured the TTK in ‘ideal’ circumstances.

Minilys.4765:

CptCosmic.3156:

i didnt included shrapnel trait into the calculation. with just 51% crit chance every second grenade toss applies a 5s bleed with that setup (6 nades with grenadier * 0.51 * 0.33 => 1,0098)

You throw 3 grenades per second, not 6. Unless you’re talking underwater.

I have never said anything about throwing speed (second adjective != second substantive)

RapBreon.9836:

Ironically that’s what I’m thinking about you. Why would I build for burning without reliable application? The grenade kit itself does not apply burning, it only procs from one talent to which I did not have sufficient crit.

Didn’t have enough crit because you decided to use a stuff with only 2 damage stats on it.

RapBreon.9836:

if I did have sufficient crit, I would have had far, far, far less direct grenade damage which is less dps anyway and less pistol damage (which is important as well for a condition build).

All stats on gear at lvl 80 are like that: 1 major + 2 minor stats, minor stats are roughly 70%, with dps stats being power, precision, condition damage and crit damage. W
hy you insist on using 3 dps stats for your crit test but only 2 for your condition damage one is really beyond me, even with the lost power from using rampager over carrion, you’d still get more dps.

RapBreon.9836:

I can tell you this though; 50% of condition damage does not apply to burning, I have never seen burning tick for 1k+ (base is roughly 300ish somewhere). And your scaling numbers don’t detract from what I’m saying.

That one was my mistake, I redid my test and the scaling is in fact of 25% not 50.

RapBreon.9836:

This is about the kit and it’s ability to apply conditions in a meaningful damage applicative way. Not condition damage versus direct damage in general.

If that was the case you’d have to test with no specs or traits and only modifying gear. Which would give you the exact same results I gave you.

CptCosmic.3156:

Minilys.4765:

CptCosmic.3156:

i didnt included shrapnel trait into the calculation. with just 51% crit chance every second grenade toss applies a 5s bleed with that setup (6 nades with grenadier * 0.51 * 0.33 => 1,0098)

You throw 3 grenades per second, not 6. Unless you’re talking underwater.

I have never said anything about throwing speed (second adjective != second substantive)

Re read your first post

just aim for atleast 50% crit chance and you apply one 5s bleed every second ability

The “ability” is what escaped me. I instead focused on the every second.
But it doesn’t really matter, since it’s pretty meaningless to know that you get roughly 1 bleed every two cast. Saying you have a 45% chance per throw to bleed your target with Sharpshooter at 50% crit is definitely more helpful.

Minilys.4765:

CptCosmic.3156:

Minilys.4765:

CptCosmic.3156:

i didnt included shrapnel trait into the calculation. with just 51% crit chance every second grenade toss applies a 5s bleed with that setup (6 nades with grenadier * 0.51 * 0.33 => 1,0098)

You throw 3 grenades per second, not 6. Unless you’re talking underwater.

I have never said anything about throwing speed (second adjective != second substantive)

Re read your first post

just aim for atleast 50% crit chance and you apply one 5s bleed every second ability

The “ability” is what escaped me. I instead focused on the every second.
But it doesn’t really matter, since it’s pretty meaningless to know that you get roughly 1 bleed every two cast.

it isnt meaningless cause the bleed lasts long.

CptCosmic.3156:

Minilys.4765:

CptCosmic.3156:

Minilys.4765:

CptCosmic.3156:

i didnt included shrapnel trait into the calculation. with just 51% crit chance every second grenade toss applies a 5s bleed with that setup (6 nades with grenadier * 0.51 * 0.33 => 1,0098)

You throw 3 grenades per second, not 6. Unless you’re talking underwater.

I have never said anything about throwing speed (second adjective != second substantive)

Re read your first post

just aim for atleast 50% crit chance and you apply one 5s bleed every second ability

The “ability” is what escaped me. I instead focused on the every second.
But it doesn’t really matter, since it’s pretty meaningless to know that you get roughly 1 bleed every two cast.

it isnt meaningless cause the bleed lasts long.

Edited my previous post to be more clear in what I meant, if you don’t mind reading it again.

Minilys.4765:

Didn’t have enough crit because you decided to use a stuff with only 2 damage stats on it.

Rampagers amulet is too eclectic but most importantly, the most important reason I did not use it, is because it does not have enough condition damage 568 as opposed to 798 no condition damage Engineer would run with Rampagers without running a hybrid build, I was not testing hybrid build, I was stacking. This has been mentioned and reiterated.

I understand your logic about using the Rampagers amulet, it’s not beyond me, no matter how much you think it is, but it is not practical to use on a straight condition damage Engineer. I don’t want that much crit at the sacrifice of condition damage which was the subject being tested.

Minilys.4765:

All stats on gear at lvl 80 are like that: 1 major + 2 minor stats, minor stats are roughly 70%,
with dps stats being power, precision, condition damage and crit damage; why you insist on using 3 dps stats for your crit test but only 2 for your condition damage one is really beyond me, even with the lost power from using rampager over carrion, you’d still get more dps.

I already mentioned that the Zerker amulet has equal total stats to a Carrion/Rabid amulet. Zerker sacrifices 300ish vit for 15% crit damage. The zerker amulet has 4 stats in total on it.

I mentioned in hind-sight if I wanted to favour condition damage even more I could’ve used the Knight’s amulet for the crit-power test, even if they turned out even in TTK, the test is still so rigged in favour of condition damage that if it can’t beat direct damage by a decent margin it obviously is an inferior damage dealing method for grenades.

Additionally, in an actual PvP setting and condition Engi would take either Rabid or Carrion while a crit-power Engi would take Zerker, this is an itemisation problem with the lack of choices regarding amulets, there is no condition equivalent to the Zerker amulet, Rampager sacrifices condition damage for crit, making it not as useful as it should be.

The testing was supposed to emulate a real situation as much as possible whilst using even specs and only changing gear, picking traits that favour condi damage. This has been mentioned I am not wondering why it does less damage, it is evident.

Minilys.4765:

If that was the case you’d have you test with no specs or traits and only modifying gear. Which would give you the exact same results I gave you.

Which isn’t practical, because as I said it was a test of scaling and I assumed that part of understanding how things scale, also include the traits they scale off.

RapBreon.9836:

Minilys.4765:

Didn’t have enough crit because you decided to use a stuff with only 2 damage stats on it.

Rampagers amulet is too eclectic but most importantly, the most important reason I did not use it, is because it does not have enough condition damage 568 as opposed to 798 no condition damage Engineer would run with Rampagers without running a hybrid build, I was not testing hybrid build, I was stacking. This has been mentioned and reiterated.

I understand your logic about using the Rampagers amulet, it’s not beyond me, no matter how much you think it is, but it is not practical to use on a straight condition damage Engineer. I don’t want that much crit at the sacrifice of condition damage which was the subject being tested.

Minilys.4765:

All stats on gear at lvl 80 are like that: 1 major + 2 minor stats, minor stats are roughly 70%,
with dps stats being power, precision, condition damage and crit damage; why you insist on using 3 dps stats for your crit test but only 2 for your condition damage one is really beyond me, even with the lost power from using rampager over carrion, you’d still get more dps.

I already mentioned that the Zerker amulet has equal total stats to a Carrion/Rabid amulet. Zerker sacrifices 300ish vit for 15% crit damage. The zerker amulet has 4 stats in total on it.

I mentioned in hind-sight if I wanted to favour condition damage even more I could’ve used the Knight’s amulet for the crit-power test, even if they turned out even in TTK, the test is still so rigged in favour of condition damage that if it can’t beat direct damage by a decent margin it obviously is an inferior damage dealing method for grenades.

Additionally, in an actual PvP setting and condition Engi would take either Rabid or Carrion while a crit-power Engi would take Zerker, this is an itemisation problem with the lack of choices regarding amulets, there is no condition equivalent of the Zerker amulet . The testing was supposed to emulate a real situation as much as possible whilst using even specs and only changing gear, picking traits that favour condi damage. This has been mentioned I am not wondering why it does less damage, it is evident.

Minilys.4765:

If that was the case you’d have you test with no specs or traits and only modifying gear. Which would give you the exact same results I gave you.

Which isn’t practical, because as I said it was a test of scaling and I assumed that part of understanding how things scale, also include the traits they scale off.

Is there a point in stacking? Why not stack only crit and crit damage then? Oh, wait you can’t.

You answered no meaningful question, the only question you managed to answer was: “Do I kill a target dummy faster with Berserker gear or Carrion gear with my specs and traits?” I could have answered that question with no tests, it’s a no-brainer for anyone who know what stats are carrion and berzerker. Well, congratulation on answering that question I guess but this certainly wasn’t what OP asked.

Minilys.4765:

You answered no meaningful question, the only question you managed to answer was: “Do I kill a target dummy faster with Berserker gear or Carrion gear with my specs and traits?” I could have answered that question with no tests, it’s a no-brainer for anyone who know what stats are carrion and berzerker. Well, congratulation on answering that question I guess but this certainly wasn’t what OP asked.

I certainly already mentioned that it was done in response to another topic, and was merely linking it to inform the OP.

Lets try a different approach, if I had of said; “using Dual pistols what kills faster” Zerker or Carrion, have a guess at what kills faster? Carrion because pistols are focused on condition damage, even if the Zerker has more dps stats. The whole point of the test was to work out where the focus was on the grenades and damage distribution was on the grenades, with relevant traits.

RapBreon.9836:

Minilys.4765:

You answered no meaningful question, the only question you managed to answer was: “Do I kill a target dummy faster with Berserker gear or Carrion gear with my specs and traits?” I could have answered that question with no tests, it’s a no-brainer for anyone who know what stats are carrion and berzerker. Well, congratulation on answering that question I guess but this certainly wasn’t what OP asked.

I certainly already mentioned that it was done in response to another topic, and was merely linking it to inform the OP.

Lets try a different approach, if I had of said; “using Dual pistols what kills faster” Zerker or Carrion, have a guess at what kills faster? Carrion because pistols are focused on condition damage, even if the Zerker has more dps stats. The whole point of the test was to work out where the focus was on the grenades and damage distribution was on the grenades, with relevant traits.

Problem is, what’s relevant to you might not be to someone else, and vice-versa, I mentioned Incendiary Powder and you kept ignoring it for example. I mentioned Rampager stuff while for you stacking condition damage is the way to get the best dps out of a condition damage build. As I said, the answer is only meaningful to yourself and isn’t what the OP asked.

I have decided to do another test for the sake progress! Same rotation as last time.

Traits were;

30 into explosives, incendiary powder, explosive powder and grenadier.

30 into firearms, precise sights, napalm specialist, nothing.

10 into tools, taking nothing, done only for crit damage.

These are pretty much the best traits for improving grenade damage. Blood injection could of been an option for the condition build, but due to only having 1.2k vitality and such a high crit rate with Rampagers, I felt 10% more crit damage was better.

Power build: 300 condition damage, 130% condition duration, 3,273 attack, 49% chance to crit, 180% crit damage. Ogre runes, Zerker Amulet.

Time to kill

1. 5.9
2. 6
3. 5.7
4. 5.9
5. 6.1

Average. 5.92

Condition build: 1,127 Condition damage, 130% condition duration, 2,750 attack, 62% crit chance, 160% crit damage. Afflicted runes, Rampagers amulet.

1. 6.9
2. 6.9
3. 6.7
4. 7.1
5. 7.2

Average. 6.96

This only further illustrates to me grenades are not a condition centric kit, they are a direct damage kit with some condition damage tacked on. The purpose of the kit is not condition damage like say the pistol is. They function better with traits and stats with power-crit and crit damage and anything that supports this set-up.

This was done on a heavy dummy and maybe in very long fights could condition damage ramp up enough to possibly catch up on heavily armoured targets. But seriously Rampagers Amulet for a condition build? You’d be stomped on so quick without some way to survive and let those conditions wear your opponent down, I still maintain even under the absolute best circumstances conditions for the grenade can’t compete with the direct damage component.

Minilys.4765:

Problem is, what’s relevant to you might not be to someone else, and vice-versa, I mentioned Incendiary Powder and you kept ignoring it for example. I mentioned Rampager stuff while for you stacking condition damage is the way to get the best dps out of a condition damage build. As I said, the answer is only meaningful to yourself and isn’t what the OP asked.

I replied about 400 times as to why I didn’t use it -_-’

I understand subjectivity Minilys, if I didn’t, I wouldn’t have described my stats, method or anything else. I even explained traits and why I chose what I chose. And explained why I stacked the stats I did, etc, etc.

RapBreon.9836:

I have decided to do another test for the sake progress! Same rotation as last time.

Traits were;

30 into explosives, incendiary powder, explosive powder and grenadier.

30 into firearms, precise sights, napalm specialist, nothing.

10 into tools, taking nothing, done only for crit damage.

These are pretty much the best traits for improving grenade damage. Blood injection could of been an option for the condition build, but due to only having 1.2k vitality and such a high crit rate with Rampagers, I felt 10% more crit damage was better.

Power build: 300 condition damage, 130% condition duration, 3,273 attack, 49% chance to crit, 180% crit damage. Ogre runes, Zerker Amulet.

Time to kill

1. 5.9
2. 6
3. 5.7
4. 5.9
5. 6.1

Average. 5.92

Condition build: 1,127 Condition damage, 130% condition duration, 2,750 attack, 62% crit chance, 160% crit damage.

1. 6.9
2. 6.9
3. 6.7
4. 7.1
5. 7.2

Average. 6.96

This only further illustrates to me grenades are not a condition centric kit, they are a direct damage kit with some condition damage tacked on. The purpose of the kit is not condition damage like say the pistol is. They function better with traits and stats with power-crit and crit damage and anything that supports this set-up.

This was done on a heavy dummy and maybe in very long fights could condition damage ramp up enough to possibly catch up on heavily armoured targets. But seriously Rampagers Amulet for a condition build? You’d be stomped on so quick without some way to survive and let those conditions wear your opponent down, I still maintain even under the absolute best circumstances conditions for the grenade can’t compete with the direct damage component.

Didn’t I say your tests were meaningless? It’s so narrow-minded, you keep locking yourself in specific conditions, it’s barely progress, the only progress is that you tried something different. Does it answer OP’s question? Nope. Only theory crafting can give OP an answer unless you have the dedication to test forever with every possible factors available. I already said it, I don’t doubt that you’re trying to help, but it just doesn’t.

RapBreon.9836:

I have decided to do another test for the sake progress! Same rotation as last time.

Traits were;

30 into explosives, incendiary powder, explosive powder and grenadier.

30 into firearms, precise sights, napalm specialist, nothing.

10 into tools, taking nothing, done only for crit damage.

These are pretty much the best traits for improving grenade damage. Blood injection could of been an option for the condition build, but due to only having 1.2k vitality and such a high crit rate with Rampagers, I felt 10% more crit damage was better.

Power build: 300 condition damage, 130% condition duration, 3,273 attack, 49% chance to crit, 180% crit damage. Ogre runes, Zerker Amulet.

Time to kill

1. 5.9
2. 6
3. 5.7
4. 5.9
5. 6.1

Average. 5.92

Condition build: 1,127 Condition damage, 130% condition duration, 2,750 attack, 62% crit chance, 160% crit damage.

1. 6.9
2. 6.9
3. 6.7
4. 7.1
5. 7.2

Average. 6.96

This only further illustrates to me grenades are not a condition centric kit, they are a direct damage kit with some condition damage tacked on. The purpose of the kit is not condition damage like say the pistol is. They function better with traits and stats with power-crit and crit damage and anything that supports this set-up.

This was done on a heavy dummy and maybe in very long fights could condition damage ramp up enough to possibly catch up on heavily armoured targets. But seriously Rampagers Amulet for a condition build? You’d be stomped on so quick without some way to survive and let those conditions wear your opponent down, I still maintain even under the absolute best circumstances conditions for the grenade can’t compete with the direct damage component.

there is a big problem with this kind of testing.
1. you dont have the proper equipment for a condition build, condition build should look for atleast 1200 condition damage and alot of condition duration
2.you are shooting a stationary target that does not dodge, does not heal and goes down pretty fast. fights in WvW dont last 5 seconds, they last longer. players can also dodge and move around, thus power build damage will go down significantly but the stacks of bleed will continue to do damage. power build has other advantages. it is apples and oranges.

beside that, grenades are almost useless in small scale pvp. I can assure you, you will not land a single grenade on me in pvp.

Minilys.4765:

Didn’t I say your tests were meaningless? It’s so narrow-minded, you keep locking yourself in specific conditions, it’s barely progress, the only progress is that you tried something different. Does it answer OP’s question? Nope. Only theory crafting can give OP an answer unless you have the dedication to test forever with every possible factors available. I already said it, I don’t doubt that you’re trying to help, but it just doesn’t.

Dismissing everything even small portions of evidence is narrow-minded. I’ve tested many factors relevant to a grenadier who can’t decide. Your theory crafting has provided nothing, where as I have at least provided something. And I’ve admitted it’s not conclusive but it does help to paint a picture, the only picture painting you’ve done iskitten in my paint.

Edit: Grammerz

CptCosmic.3156:

there is a big problem with this kind of testing.
1. you dont have the proper equipment for a condition build, condition build should look for atleast 1200 condition damage and alot of condition duration
2.you are shooting a stationary target that does not dodge, does not heal and goes down pretty fast. fights in pvp dont last 5 seconds, they last longer. players can also dodge and move around, thus power build damage will go down significantly but the stacks of bleed will continue to do damage.

I did a build that hard stacked condition damage, I got similar results, there is no amulet that allows 1200 condition damage whilst allowing me to keep the other stats. This is why I dislike Rampager’s amulet. They have close to maximum relevant condition duration, using same trait trees but different runes.

I’ve paid lip-service to longer fights. Players dodging also affects the condition aspect on grenades, if you miss Shrapnel grenade, no dot damage for 5 seconds is worse than missing one set of regular grenades. That scenario works both ways. I know these tests aren’t perfect like I’ve mentioned, they’re still helpful for understanding the kit.

Grenades are useless in small-scale PvP? I absolutely hammer people 1v1 with them, I find them beyond useful in duels. We must have very different experiences with the kit.

I’m surprised this is even a question.

Ask yourselves, what is the engineers most powerful nuke?

Does it scale with power? Yes, well too. Grenade barrage is the most powerful damage ability engineer has and it has no conditions on it.

Shrapnel grenade, while doing some bleeding also does more raw damage than the standard grenades. The only pure conditions is poison, and poison does not do very well with condition damage as its damage is quite low.

The reason poison is good, is due to duration, more than damage.

So, in the end, the grenade kit is left with 3 stats which help it out:

Power
Malice
Expertise

Grenade, Grenade Barrage, Shrapnel Grenade all benefit from Power to a good degree.
Shrapnel Grenade benefits from Malice to a good degree.
Flash, Freeze and Poison Grenades all benefit from Expertise to a good degree.

From that it seems fairly clear that your best best for grenades is power and expertise. And since expertise is very hard to obtain as a stat, save from the explosives tree and from a few runes, it makes sense to invest into explosives, and investing 30 points gives you both 300 points of power and 30 points of expertise.

Which means that if you want to add malice, its a bit of a waste, since you already are maximizing the two biggest stats by taking grenadier.

Lyuben.2613:

I’m surprised this is even a question.

Ask yourselves, what is the engineers most powerful nuke?

Does it scale with power? Yes, well too. Grenade barrage is the most powerful damage ability engineer has and it has no conditions on it.

Shrapnel grenade, while doing some bleeding also does more raw damage than the standard grenades. The only pure conditions is poison, and poison does not do very well with condition damage as its damage is quite low.

The reason poison is good, is due to duration, more than damage.

So, in the end, the grenade kit is left with 3 stats which help it out:

Power
Malice
Expertise

Grenade, Grenade Barrage, Shrapnel Grenade all benefit from Power to a good degree.
Shrapnel Grenade benefits from Malice to a good degree.
Flash, Freeze and Poison Grenades all benefit from Expertise to a good degree.

From that it seems fairly clear that your best best for grenades is power and expertise. And since expertise is very hard to obtain as a stat, save from the explosives tree and from a few runes, it makes sense to invest into explosives, and investing 30 points gives you both 300 points of power and 30 points of expertise.

Which means that if you want to add malice, its a bit of a waste, since you already are maximizing the two biggest stats by taking grenadier.

Explained what I’ve been trying to this entire time in a much more eloquent way, thank you.

RapBreon.9836:

Minilys.4765:

Didn’t I say your tests were meaningless? It’s so narrow-minded, you keep locking yourself in specific conditions, it’s barely progress, the only progress is that you tried something different. Does it answer OP’s question? Nope. Only theory crafting can give OP an answer unless you have the dedication to test forever with every possible factors available. I already said it, I don’t doubt that you’re trying to help, but it just doesn’t.

Dismissing everything even small portions of evidence is narrow-minded. I’ve tested many factors relevant to a grenadier who can’t decide. You’re theory crafting has provided nothing, where as I have at least provided something. And I’ve admitted it’s not conclusive but it does help to paint a picture, the only picture painting you’ve done iskitten in my paint.

Well I didn’t have the chance up until now. But sure, I’ll do my painting, I might not draw OP a 42 but I’ll at least give him a (3+3)*(2+5) while you gave him a 2 and a 4. If you don’t get it, don’t bother.

So, OP, as you probably already know, at lvl 80 gear has 3 stats 1 major and 2 minors; if you forsake survivability entirely, your choice of gear is either Berzerker (power, crit and crit damage) or Rampager (precision, power and condition damage); Berserker is obviously a direct damage stuff, relying on raw damage and crit damage, while Rampager give more of an hybrid build with more crits and condition damage but less crit damage and direct damage.

Scaling for direct damage/conditon damage per condition provided in https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/80-engineer-grenade-build-Power-or-Condition/first#post97028

Direct damage is less effective high armored target since armor reduce direct damage but not condition damage. At the same time some targets , like World boss dragons can’t be critted but are still affected by condition damage, unfortunately due to the number of people doing them, only the person with the most condition damage will see the benefits from it, while some targets are immune to both crits and condition damage (world object like walls, turrets) which can be important in specific situations in dungeons.

For traits, since you’ll at least have 30 points in Explosives and will obviously have Grenadier as your Grand Master trait, you may want to consider Sharpnel, Incendiary Powder, Empowering Adrenaline(if you dodge a lot), Explosive Powder, Enhance Performance or even Forceful Explosives (if you have problems hitting your target).

For secondary traits, a mix between Firearms and Tools is what we generally see though an elixir build with 30 points in alchemy for HGH might be worth it if you’re using elixirs a lot.

In Firearms, the only traits you consider for damage are Precise Sights and napalm Specialist (only with Incendiary Powder from Explosives) tought the GrandMaster passive pretty much assure you a 5% dps increase against bleeding targets (which is always with sharpnel grenade anyway)

In Tools, only Scope (at 20 point) directly help your dps, otherwise Speedy gadget can help with Utility Googles, Kit refinement if you need instant burst around you but isn’t all that great dps wise since it has a cooldown or Static Discharge (doesn’t do much damage but can hit multiple targets at range). You might want to go for the Grand Master passive if you don’t dodge much.

For other specs, their passive stats gain don’t help dps directly.
In Invention only Energized Armor helps but that’s 10 points for only ~50 power at lvl 80, might be better if you choose gear with thoughness on it but will still less than going straight for Rampager or Berzerker gear.
Going for the Grand Master Passive really isn’t worth it.

In Alchemy, Blood Injection is the same as Energized Armor but Fast Acting Elixir help if you’re using Elixir B and/or U or even C if you’re expecting a lot of conditions on you. At 20 points only Potent Elixir helps for damage but doesn’t affect Elixir U. The Grand Master passive is only worthwhile with HGH and is futher reinforced with Enhance Performance (in explosives), but you will spend a lot of time drinking/throwing elixirs.

In conclusion, for OP (and everyone else) don’t accept easy answers, think for yourself, that’s the only way you’ll get better.

RapBreon.9836:

CptCosmic.3156:

there is a big problem with this kind of testing.
1. you dont have the proper equipment for a condition build, condition build should look for atleast 1200 condition damage and alot of condition duration
2.you are shooting a stationary target that does not dodge, does not heal and goes down pretty fast. fights in pvp dont last 5 seconds, they last longer. players can also dodge and move around, thus power build damage will go down significantly but the stacks of bleed will continue to do damage.

I did a build that hard stacked condition damage, I got similar results, there is no amulet that allows 1200 condition damage whilst allowing me to keep the other stats. This is why I dislike Rampager’s amulet. They have close to maximum relevant condition duration, using same trait trees but different runes.

I’ve paid lip-service to longer fights. Players dodging also affects the condition aspect on grenades, if you miss Shrapnel grenade, no dot damage for 5 seconds is worse than missing one set of regular grenades. That scenario works both ways.

Grenades are useless in small-scale PvP? I absolutely hammer people 1v1 with them, I find them beyond useful in duels. We must have very different experiences with the kit.

I have met plenty of nade spamming engineers and none was able to constantly hit me. I dont have to care about aiming with pistols, I just stack my conditions which together with my attacks will deal close to 3k dps and with perma swiftness and vigor I can just dodge and avoid grenades all day long.

CptCosmic.3156:

I have met plenty of nade spamming engineers and none was able to constantly hit me. I dont have to care about aiming with pistols, I just stack my conditions which together with my attacks will deal close to 3k dps and with perma swiftness and vigor I can just dodge and avoid grenades all day long.

In a duel unless the person is confined to a point you just throw the 2, 3, 4, 5 and skills on the kit in between rifle skill usage. I play both builds frequently and it’s all about the rifle engineer landing his combos, if he does and your escape is down, chances are he’ll win. The grenade kit is actually high skill-cap on a single target. I also have perma swiftness+vigor.

Condition builds have a hard time with heavy removal builds, especially Mesmer or Necros. Or another 409 Engi.

@Minilys; yeah I get it.

RapBreon.9836:

CptCosmic.3156:

I have met plenty of nade spamming engineers and none was able to constantly hit me. I dont have to care about aiming with pistols, I just stack my conditions which together with my attacks will deal close to 3k dps and with perma swiftness and vigor I can just dodge and avoid grenades all day long.

Condition builds have a hard time with heavy removal builds, especially Mesmer or Necros. Or another 409 Engi.

condition removal is annoying but luckily the engineer conditions have mostly short duration and are reapplied very fast

also I wish you good luck against anyone with retaliation. getting hit back 3 times everytime you hit with a grenade ability is not fun, especially in WvW and area retaliation combos.

@CptCosmic.3156,RapBreon.9836
I wouldn’t want to interrupt but OP specifically asked for PvE, dungeons and solo.

CptCosmic.3156:

condition removal is annoying but luckily the engineer conditions have mostly short duration and are reapplied very fast

also I wish you good luck against anyone with retaliation. getting hit back 3 times everytime you hit with a grenade ability is not fun, especially in WvW and area retaliation combos.

Hahah yeah our condition application is fairly fast and short duration and gives us a leg up, still some builds are very hard to kill, I find mesmers are a condition build to be difficult as illusionary swordsman is pounding me into dust while I try to aim up a single blowtorch.

Hahah yeah I’ve blown myself up on retaliation before, Guardians make me fairly wary.

@Minilys; basically you’ve given him nothing. I at least gave him some information that was tested – I mentioned it isn’t conclusive – to use your analogy I gave him a 4 and a 2, what he wants to do with that 4 and a 2 is up to him. You basically just gave him the numbers 0 – 9 (whilst telling him 4 and 2 are wrong) and said, make your own decision. I’m sure he could’ve done that without your help.

I was expecting some mathematical theorycrafting illustrating the differences between condi and direct, but instead I got discussion of traits, which doesn’t even answer his question. Sure, it helps him with his options, which has been discussed by myself, others and in multiple different scenarios and topics.

RapBreon.9836:

CptCosmic.3156:

condition removal is annoying but luckily the engineer conditions have mostly short duration and are reapplied very fast

also I wish you good luck against anyone with retaliation. getting hit back 3 times everytime you hit with a grenade ability is not fun, especially in WvW and area retaliation combos.

Hahah yeah our condition application is fairly fast and short duration and gives us a leg up, still some builds are very hard to kill, I find mesmers are a condition build to be difficult as illusionary swordsman is pounding me into dust while I try to aim up a single blowtorch.

Hahah yeah I’ve blown myself up on retaliation before, Guardians make me fairly wary.

@Minilys; basically you’ve given him nothing. I at least gave him some information that was tested – I mentioned it isn’t conclusive – to use your analogy I gave him a 4 and a 2, what he wants to do with that 4 and a 2 is up to him. You basically just gave him the numbers 0 – 9 and said, make your own decision. I’m sure he could’ve done that without your help.

It seems you’re looking down on the mathematical complexity of OP’s question.
I can only give broad information because that’s the only thing I have right now, you gave him an answer that only apply to you. “But I tested it, I must be right for every possible situation ever!” doesn’t sound very convincing and if OP asked here he obviously couldn’t decide for himself either by lack of basic information (in which case I helped) or lack of definitive decision (in which case I didn’t help) but your answer doesn’t help much either and would require a discussion involving a lot a other players in which case both you and I could have given an opinion to help OP make a decision, but having a discussion with just 3 people saying opposite things simply wouldn’t help regardless.

Minilys.4765:

“But I tested it, I must be right for every possible situation ever!”

Lmfao, I put a disclaimer both within the original post, explained it multiple times to you and on top of all that, I said in this scenario it ‘illustrates’ (as in there is a link) better scaling from direct damage. I did another test in a different circumstance and added another confirmatory piece of evidence, strengthening the link.

Regardless my information helps, because during that scenario, a certain set-up is better, lending itself to applying to other scenarios using that set-up. Your information helped him with his options, which wasn’t his question. I paid the required lip service to complicating factors (such as time), and gave the OP as base to work with, what he does with it is up to him.

Edit: Grammer

RapBreon.9836:

Minilys.4765:

“But I tested it, I must be right for every possible situation ever!”

Lmfao, I put a disclaimer both within the original post, explained it multiple times to you and on top of all that, I said in this scenario it ‘illustrates’ (as in there is a link) better scaling from direct damage. I did another test in a different circumstance and added another confirmatory piece of evidence, strengthen the link.

Regardless my information helps, because during that scenario, a certain set-up is better, lending itself to applying to other scenarios using that set-up. Your information helped him with his options, which wasn’t his question.

Regardless, I think OP left a long, long time ago, satisfied by the first answer he came across.

He got what he wanted, a base to work off, a starting point. If he takes it as a conclusive answer, that’s his own failure.

Condition builds are a war of attrition strategy.
So Brookie, it depends on how long your average fights last and how much of your fights involve you or your enemies using cover and kiting.

RapBreon.9836:

He got what he wanted, a base to work off, a starting point. If he takes it as a conclusive answer, that’s his own failure.

Spoonfeeding people isn’t helping anyone, not you, not people like OP, it’s not helping me either since I spent the last few hours monitoring this thread. And that’s definitely what I’m fighting against.

RapBreon.9836:

Minilys.4765:

Spoonfeeding people isn’t helping anyone, not you, not people like OP, it’s not helping me either since I spent the last few hours monitoring this thread. And that’s definitely what I’m fighting against.

I put a disclaimer on it and explained it, I can’t do much more. I mean I could have not helped I guess, but seeing as we’re combating ‘misinformation’ in the off chance somebody might get it ‘wrong’ or ‘misapply’ it, we better just close the forums!

Moral crusades are fun, especially when they’re so ambivalent.

I actually just expected to spark an educated discussion on the question, mission failed. You could have said something like: “Hey OP, sorry but the game is new so we won’t have a definite answer for you anytime soon”, and that’s exactly what I was planning to say to OP at first but well in retrospect I really do feel like I spent the last few hours on nothing.

Your continued misrepresentation of what I’ve done; “supply some information” like I’ve dropped it down as the word of God is tiresome.

I supplied info, we discussed it, we’ve probably helped him more. Good times. It’s a better start than “sorry dunno, new game”.

RapBreon.9836:

*Your continued misrepresentation of what I’ve done; “supply some information” like I’ve dropped it down as the word of God is tiresome. *

I supplied info, we discussed it, we’ve probably helped him more. Good times. It’s a better start than “sorry dunno, new game”.

People are idiots that’s why they’ll just accept anything that way. Course you’re not responsible for that but as I said it’s not helping either.