Guild Wars 2

Why are Elixirs even random?

Elixir H (25s CD)
Random Boon of:
Regeneration for 10s
Protection for 5s
Swiftness for 10s

Toss Elixir H (30s CD)
Random boon of:
Protection for 5s
Vigor for 10s
Regeneration for 10s

The problem with this elixir and most Elixir skills is that the total RNG of this skill. If I am built as a tanky front-line character, I wouldn’t want the additional swiftness buff or vigor buffs, I want the protection buffs. Or maybe, the regeneration buffs. We require a way to eliminate this form of RNG. It is hurting the class due to its instability, just the tossing actives are a huge gamble. Maybe a drop-down box, enabling us to pick whatever boons that we require for that situation.

Currently, this problem affects all but 2 Elixirs. Elixir C and R.

This is a problem, however only with the toolkit versions of the skill. It does not ensure the correct buffs are given, Elixir B grants a random fury, might, retaliation or swiftness buff, a 25% chance of what boon you actually want from it.

Elixir S, Engineer’s only stability skill. However a 50% chance between a stealth or stability.

Elixir U, a 33% chance between, (though combo fields), a stealth, blind or projectile reflection.

If we need to move from one area to another, I would pick swiftness in Elixir H and its Toss and Elixir U’s Toss. If we are playing a more hit and run type of style, I would pick the invisibility off Elixir U and S, granting AoE stealth to me and my allies.

Elixirs, in its current state in any content, be it PVE, SPVP or even WVW is a huge gamble. However, if we can cherry pick what the elixirs do, we can create a more strategic environment and not entirely dependent on luck.

I suggested, a couple months ago, making Elixirs work on a context-sensitive basis, using character stats and professions to choose effects.

Nobody said anything about it, but I still think that would be the best way to deal with Elixirs.

Edit: Found my post about it. !https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Suggestions-for-Engineer-and-possibly-others-Aesthetic-and-Functional/first#post179948! Thoughts?

If an ability is going to be unpredictable, then the “ideal” effects need to be very powerful -borderline overpowered- to offset the unreliable nature.

If they want to keep Elixirs unpredictable, then an Elixir chugging Engineer who has everything work out perfectly for them should be damn near unstoppable for the 10 or so seconds that they are under the effects of those elixirs. We don’t see that right now.

There should be a small chance that ALL of the effects from a random elixir are applied. That would be cool.

-Travail.

Supposed to be the “funny nature” of engineers making crazy experimental potions and machines, but in use it gets old after 3 seconds.

I tried out ‘throw elixir B’ for testing yesterday.
Most were swiftness buffs, some mights, and not even 1 in 10 was retaliation which is what we hope for the most when using this.

‘Throw elixir S’ gives 2 completely different options: when you want stealth than stability does nothing for you.
When you want stability than stealth is a waste.
For example on point defense, or supply camp fighting in WvW wich is the same: you want stability there, while stealth is actually counterproductive because you don’t count anymore.

Elixir X is the same issue: when you want juggernaut than the whirlwind doesn’t help you.

Almost every elixir has these random issues.
I agree the fun of it wears of very fast.

I can understand some random effects, some element of surprise, but it should be in the same order.

Was it so hard to make the randomness less random but still ‘exciting’?
For example: protection or retaliation both serve the same situation of being attacked.
Swiftness can help you escape, and invisability can do that better.
At least keep offensive effects together, and defensive with defensive, and escape with escape.

All tosses fall under a certain aspect of the game and each of them is useful in a certain situation no matter what you get from it. The most unreliable is toss elixir U but its still good in some situations. At least thats how I see it:

H is always defensive, B is always offensive (except maybe for swiftness), S is for reviving/finishing/escaping, U works wonders in a ranged fight.

I got used to the random effects and try to play them to my advantage in wvw, it’s not that bad.

Because for Developer it’s fun .
This is their statment = no Devs ever played a competitive PvP using toss elixir.

If they were to remove the random aspect of thrown elixirs, then it’s likely that we’d just flat out lose access to some of the effects that some of them provide. I like them the way they are, and I don’t seem to struggle with them at all in WvW or sPvP.

I use thrown elixirs only for HGH and turbo-res.
Never used them for their buffs.

“A Question, why are elixirs RNG?”

Because of our crazy versatility. *sigh

Because it makes the developers feel clever.
We’re the ones that have to live with it though….

Ponder.3647:

If they were to remove the random aspect of thrown elixirs, then it’s likely that we’d just flat out lose access to some of the effects that some of them provide. I like them the way they are, and I don’t seem to struggle with them at all in WvW or sPvP.

struggle and struggle

would be nice to know if you are going to throw the pot k i am going stealth now i am running and throowing Bom Stability or the Elite elixir Ok i pray for tornado Bom You turn into the biggest melee newb with large hp Waste..

buut we are to OP i mean we need more nerfs cant you see us facerolling ? Warriors and thiefs and mesmers and guardians need some buffs now..

I’ll agree that Thieves and Mesmers feel like they need to be toned down. Warriors and Guardians , at least in PvP don’t usually prove to be that much of a problem.

All of your posts are just sarcastic post-fix/nerf QQ. The fact is, grenades were broken. The weapon sigil fix would have made grenades even more broken. The grenade “nerf” came with a decent fix that Engineers have been crying about since day 1.

As for Elixirs, and RNG – as I said, I feel like it’s necessary. Giving them random attributes is what allows us to have such a wide variety of effects available. If Elixir B were to always give all of the listed buffs when thrown, it’d be ridiculous. Between the thrown/self elixir, your uptime on B’s effects would be too much. So, to balance this, it’s CD would end up being changed, or even worse, some of the effects from the thrown elixir would be removed.

Because we can’t have nice things.

Ponder.3647:

I’ll agree that Thieves and Mesmers feel like they need to be toned down. Warriors and Guardians , at least in PvP don’t usually prove to be that much of a problem.

All of your posts are just sarcastic post-fix/nerf QQ. The fact is, grenades were broken. The weapon sigil fix would have made grenades even more broken. The grenade “nerf” came with a decent fix that Engineers have been crying about since day 1.

As for Elixirs, and RNG – as I said, I feel like it’s necessary. Giving them random attributes is what allows us to have such a wide variety of effects available. If Elixir B were to always give all of the listed buffs when thrown, it’d be ridiculous. Between the thrown/self elixir, your uptime on B’s effects would be too much. So, to balance this, it’s CD would end up being changed, or even worse, some of the effects from the thrown elixir would be removed.

moron

i am talking about Elixir S Stealth or stability

I am Talking pvp not your random crap standing PVE brainless writer

Stealth AAAAAALLL the way to stability?

Just Let the crap kitten kitten give Stealth OR stability
The elite Elixir Am i gonna get the stupid jaggernaut or Tornado

Elixir B ’’randomnes’’ is just Fine.. not Breaking like ok i am gonna go stealth now WOOOPS you got 60% bigger Just die

or an elite slot w0000ps i got the jaggeraaut leave the foorm faast waste of spot

they just put random crap without testing or anything as long as Engineer has several kits and can switch without cooldown who gives a kitten about damage and if it works or not we got many buttons to click?

RNG has no place in competitive pvp.

Frankly, this is true for crit as well. Its a bit disturbing really.

Random effects are simply horrible design. It would be ok if there was a trait to make it give all of those buffs but randomness is never a good thing. Instead of trying this randomness kitten, they should simply have decided on 1-2 effects that are always the same instead of putting 10 different ones that are randomly activated on each one.

Randomness just isn’t worth it. It doesn’t add any value beyond the first 5 uses for fluff reasons. Even if 9 out of 10 times a player gets a buff that is somehow (even just a bit) usefull for him, the 10th use that gives him exactly what he doesn’t need can ruin all of that “fun” if that player dies because of it.

Thenoob.1480:

Supposed to be the “funny nature” of engineers making crazy experimental potions and machines, but in use it gets old after 3 seconds.

You see tho that kind of thinking nerfed the engineering profession in games like WoW to be completely superficial. In this game, it’s not so funny because this is a whole class so they definitely need to rework some things.

If they want this class to behave like the others and to be as useful as the others they need to make these elixirs give all of the buffs they would normal randomize between when thrown or they need to make them give 3-4 of the boons when thrown and drinking them.

It would certainly correct one of the major aspects of this class right off the bat.

Why would I ever want a wall of invisibility? Where I walk thru it only to be seen three seconds later? How is that ever useful? Why would I want the rocket boots to land me face down and have to spend three seconds standing up just to move?

Why can’t we have stability all the time from a potion that we’ve made? I cannot as an engineer do any of the major things in the game that require stability without risking a gamble on a tiny stability factor that I may or may not get when I throw my potion that doesn’t even last long, OR I have to use an elite skill with an enormous cooldown.

Why doesn’t equipping a large package like flamethrower kit or toolkit give me stability, or drinking one of these potions I have give me stability? Like the Elixir R for example?

This class really makes no sense some times.

Kuruptz.4782:

moron

Says the guy who can barely structure a legible sentence.

Kuruptz.4782:

i am talking about Elixir S Stealth or stability

I believe this ability is meant to assist with reviving or stomping. Both effects granted by this elixir are useful in that regard.

Kuruptz.4782:

I am Talking pvp not your random crap standing PVE brainless writer

I’m talking about PvP as well. Did you just call me a “brainless writer”?

Kuruptz.4782:

Just Let the crap kitten kitten give Stealth OR stability
The elite Elixir Am i gonna get the stupid jaggernaut or Tornado

Stealth and Stability when reviving and stomping ultimately help to achieve the same goal. Don’t use Elixir X in PvP, it feels like it’s more of a PvE skill. Supply Crate (or Mortar for WvW at times) are your best bet.

Kuruptz.4782:

or an elite slot w0000ps i got the jaggeraaut leave the foorm faast waste of spot

See first comment.

Kuruptz.4782:

they just put random crap without testing or anything

Oh do they?

Kuruptz.4782:

as long as Engineer has several kits and can switch without cooldown who gives a kitten about damage and if it works or not we got many buttons to click?

I’m not even sure I understand what you’re trying to say. Are you now complaining about the number of buttons you need to click?

Gents, stop being stupid on the internet.
Write in a way other people can understand.
Write in a way that doesn’t get this thread locked.
If you are inept to do so, please use the personal messaging system of this forum.
Much appreciated.

My apologies, if this is because of english not being your native language.
No apologies though if you’re just being lazy.

Because here is only one man on the world who love RNG – engi developer. And we just w8 that Anet fired him and do something with RNG. Without that we have no chance.

Rozbuska.5263:

Because here is only one man on the world who love RNG – engi developer. And we just w8 that Anet fired him and do something with RNG. Without that we have no chance.

And thief.
Really though, crit=rng. And with crit damage being a stat, the emphasis is on its importance as an Iwin stat, and not actual player skill in setting up damage.

Crit works in different way.

In the long run it normalizes and just increases overall DPS.

RNG on elixirs thogh, they are used as an on-demand buff. But due to randomness we can’t expect what we want to. So engi is forced to adapt to what rng gave him.

Isslair.4908:

So engi is forced to adapt to what rng gave him.

BINGO! This is why the RNG exists. If it doesn’t fit your play style, don’t build for elixers.

Monkey Fritz.9052:

Isslair.4908:

So engi is forced to adapt to what rng gave him.

BINGO! This is why the RNG exists. If it doesn’t fit your play style, don’t build for elixers.

Except everything is so short duration and the effects are just so random it’s not realistic to adapt.

I mean, say you are out of endurance and your fighting a boss with an attack you NEED to dodge because it one-shots you… so you use toss elixer H, hoping for vigor to let you dodge, or protection so maybe you can tank it if you can’t dodge. Instead you get… regeneration. How do you adapt to that? you can’t.

Or say you’re low on health, you need a heal, you toss it out hoping for regeneration or vigor so you can either heal, or dodge away to hide and wait for elixer H cooldown. you throw it out…. and poof, you get protection which is not enough to save you from an extra hit – how can you adapt to that?

Or you toss out an elixer S trying to give your buddy stability to protect him from a pull the boss is about to do. Instead he becomes invisible which is instantly canceled by an autoattack. How do you adapt to that?

etc etc etc.

RNG can maybe work in a different game but not in this one, at least not the way they implemented it.

You are forgetting these are Toolbelt skills. A Second skill that no one else has, the drawback? RNG. Having TWO Elixer class skills per slot would be way OP. Which is where part of your build choice comes in: do I want the RNG of this elixer, OR would I rather have another attack from a kit or turret?

You still have the main skill which is 100% predictable. As an aside you ALSO get an RNG, which with traits like 409 also have predictable outcomes. I toss elixer’s for 409, and get RNG as a side effect. Adapt to the class, don’t expect the class to adapt to you.

RNG is basically in the Engineer’s in-game description. Some people like it, some people don’t. Some people find warriors bland and boring. It’s all in how you play the class. Which is why every class has three main lines of skills. Some people hate Banners, some people run their warriors purely to use banners.

But I was answering the OP: RNG is there for you to ‘see what you get’ and then utilize it. NOT the other way around.

I have no problem if people want to petition for extended duration on Tossed Elixers. That falls in the realm of a Balance change, which I expect they would listen to and consider. It may even already be on the table, as they have already claimed to be limiting the number of changes per class each update, in spite of how many changes they may have planned.

DESIGN changes, on the other hand, are likely to be ignored out of hand, for numerous reasons.

Monkey Fritz.9052:

You are forgetting these are Toolbelt skills. A Second skill that no one else has, the drawback? RNG. Having TWO Elixer class skills per slot would be way OP. Which is where part of your build choice comes in: do I want the RNG of this elixer, OR would I rather have another attack from a kit or turret?

You still have the main skill which is 100% predictable. As an aside you ALSO get an RNG, which with traits like 409 also have predictable outcomes. I toss elixer’s for 409, and get RNG as a side effect. Adapt to the class, don’t expect the class to adapt to you.

RNG is basically in the Engineer’s in-game description. Some people like it, some people don’t. Some people find warriors bland and boring. It’s all in how you play the class. Which is why every class has three main lines of skills. Some people hate Banners, some people run their warriors purely to use banners.

But I was answering the OP: RNG is there for you to ‘see what you get’ and then utilize it. NOT the other way around.

I have no problem if people want to petition for extended duration on Tossed Elixers. That falls in the realm of a Balance change, which I expect they would listen to and consider. It may even already be on the table, as they have already claimed to be limiting the number of changes per class each update, in spite of how many changes they may have planned.

DESIGN changes, on the other hand, are likely to be ignored out of hand, for numerous reasons.

Exactly. Other classes do not get “toolbelt” skills. We have our base elixir abilities, and the toolbelts, or thrown effects are just icing on the cake. The side-affects of a thrown elixir offering RNG buffs is balanced in it’s current state. Taking away the RNG on the toolbelt skill would result in Elixirs becoming too good of a choice for skill spots – which will likely result in a nerf. :P

Except the toolbelt is our class gimmick.

No other class has adrenaline except warrior. No other class has phantasms/illusions except mesmer. No other class has deathshroud except necromancer, etc.

Why is everyone else’s class gimmick reliable, but ours is RNG?

Why does our class gimmick as it pertains to elixirs include a long throwing animation and slow cast speed to target in addition to a tiny AoE range for its RNG effect?

There are some really great toolbelt skills available, but with the exception of possibly Elixir H’s I don’t think any of our thrown elixir skills can be included with them.

The key to using elixirs is to use them in general situations were anything you get is useful, or to trait utility into them, or both. Untraited the most useful tosses are probably Toss R, Toss C, Toss S, and then toss U.

If you’re tossing elixirs for a specific effect out of the ones they give you, you’re using them wrong. You must be willing to: accept what you get, and make use out of it. This requires a pretty good deal of thinking on the fly and its not very intuitive. You have to go in using stuff to just benefit you, rather than counting on a specific effect.

A general list of when to toss, when you want a ‘general’ effect.

Toss H- defensive boon (these all are used to offset damage, vigor lets you flat out avoid it, regen helps recover from it, protection mitigates it)
Toss-B combat boon (offensive, all of these are giving your more damage potential, swiftness indirectly through positioning)
Toss- S escape or stomp or combat wild card (not bad for reviving your teammates as well)
Toss-U avoid ranged attacks (if you get veil they can’t target you once you slip through it.)

If they want to buff tosses, I say turn a prior bug into a feature: make toss H and toss B grant 2 random boons instead of one. For the whole month that was the case those 2 abilities were fantastic thanks to boon generation alone.

If they wanna make elixir X actually be useful, change it from being a transformation, to granting you a random Aura for 10-15s, and give it a shorter cool down. The devs get their random kick, the elite has a clear purpose (use it when you’re being attacked). Or make it so your attacks randomly inflict burn, poison, or confusion for a duration. Still random, still powerful.

Random abilities are not bad, random abilities that don’t have an overall theme (opposing situational usage) are cause they really can get something you can’t make any use of. This is why elixir X has been historically terrible. Each transformation has a very different ideal situation and that means that you have a solid chance of just getting something sub par. While on land you can pretty much go “pop this to knock at least one person around” that doesn’t fix the issue of rampage being focused on one target, vs tornado’s group clearing ability. The water version is still bad because whirlpool can flat out kill people who get stuck in it, while plague tickles people and stalls out. While disruption or stall could be the link there, that still doesn’t account for the issue pointed out ages ago. You have one form that supports conditions and one that’s more power oriented.

Despite their quirks, I still use them, do just fine with them, and heck, I have grown to love them and the random nature (save for X, I stay away from that thing, crate forever). This is probably because my build is built around elixirs and boons, so the issues encountered when using them are offset by traits. I would say that they are not the most splash friendly utilities outside of R, C, and S.

I use elixirs, but only for their dependable effects. The rest is in the “Oh, what the hell, lets give it a shot – there’s a small chance it might actually help” category. If I use them for a random effect its either because a) I’m desperate and will give anything a go however unlikely, or b) the fight is a done deal and I may as well throw some elixirs around just for fun.

The slow throw animation for elixirs really sucks, though. I end up using my toolbelt elixirs selfishly simply because that’s the only way to be sure the time spent throwing them ends up being useful. If the ally I really want to help happens to be in the right place when the elixir lands, all the better.

Now if the thrown elixirs granted a second boon for a shorter time, that would make them useful (as there’d be 2/3 chance of getting something you wanted, even if only for a very short time) and make those tool belt slots worthwhile.