Guild Wars 2

So now we have lost our kit-swapping builds; the general consensus seems to be that most people feel KR is no longer worth having, and Engies everywhere are scrambling to find a new viable build. We used to have several of them, but now it seems to me that we are down to only two:

- HGH Conditions Grenadier
- The Old Reliable (AKA Static Discharge)

People are already predicting a nerf to the former. My personal theory is that Static Discharge will take the next hit, as it seems to be the most viable thing we have left (in my opinion). Conditions is strong but when you are running around with a conditions-heavy build and 25 stacks of Might, a single Null Field is game-breakingly devastating, at least in my experience. To the point that while I was going through trying every Engi build I could get my hands on (and playing each for at least a week to really get a good beat on it,) I quickly shuffled that particular build off onto the “nice in theory, but would prefer not to use” shelf.

Of course, fumbling any part of 100 Nades was game-breakingly devastating, and they still nerf’d that. So…

Great. So we have 1 solid build, and 1 that is excellent but a single boon rip is the equivalent of an atom bomb dropped on our heads. Game over.

Now we have “buffed” turrets, but you notice that no one in their right mind is talking about making builds with turrets. Still. ANet clearly recognized that no one was using them, and is trying to fix that. They really, really want us to like the stupid things, but we just don’t. We never did, we still don’t, and unless turrets get completely re-tooled, we never will. Sorry, guys.

Why change KR so drastically? It boggles the mind. Super Elixir and Grenade Barrage were the broken ones, but in an impressive show of over-reaction, ANet has changed every single proc and then further punished us with an invisible CD. KR is looking more like a ridiculous game of whack-a-mole now than anything. -tosses it over her shoulder and pitches it in the trash- … NEXT?

So what /is/ next? Another buff to turrets? Probably not, even though they clearly want us to use them. A nerf to Static Discharge? Probably, it’s the best thing we have going for us right now. Nerf to HGH? Maybe.

Things are only going to get more and more broken until ANet can decide what they want us to be. Are we tank-y? Not really. Our Bunker is not nearly as strong as Guardian or Ele’s versions of the same. Are we made to do massive damage? Hahaha… NO. Get out with your 100 Nades! Can we be sneaky? Of course not (and btw, we’ll be taking that Veil back, as well… you know, the RNG that never proc’d when you wanted it anyway?) Okay… how about point control? Nope… your turrets are still kitten.

ANet has no idea what we are. Still. Heck, WE don’t even know what we are any more! And until we get it figured out, the kittening will just keep on coming, as players continue to find innovative builds that transcend our merciless nerfbat beatings, and ANet continues to “put them in their place” without offering us any viable alternatives.

hehehe I mentioned those things on my post as well, 100Nades was not the reason.. but yea, they don’t know what they want engineer to be, but they know they don’t want engineer killing fast or being too support

also, Soothing Mist on ele, is much stronger! 5 point trait.. they nerfed sElixir on kR cause people were bringing this kit only for x2 sElixir, and it seems they currently want everyone to stay longer on kits, and build around them, KR simply got in their way.. so they had to take it out

/signed

adadasjdfjdfsgfkjdsdfkjasdkjas

sunnypsyop.3025:

Now we have “buffed” turrets, but you notice that no one in their right mind is talking about making builds with turrets. Still. ANet clearly recognized that no one was using them, and is trying to fix that. They really, really want us to like the stupid things, but we just don’t. We never did, we still don’t, and unless turrets get completely re-tooled, we never will. Sorry, guys.

Actually, I am seeing a lot of turrets lately. I guess that people will stop using them once the fad fades and they realize that the buffs are irrelevant since the turret is going to be oneshot.

I keep browsing the forums and keeping my engie around in the hopes that something will stand out as being as fun and interesting as KR was.

But for the most part, I have my thief and my warrior, for PvP and PvE, and there just isn’t any reason to give engie playtime.

It’s time to give up on the profession guys. Maybe eventually it will amount to something, but not in the near future.

timidobserver.7925:

sunnypsyop.3025:

Now we have “buffed” turrets, but you notice that no one in their right mind is talking about making builds with turrets. Still. ANet clearly recognized that no one was using them, and is trying to fix that. They really, really want us to like the stupid things, but we just don’t. We never did, we still don’t, and unless turrets get completely re-tooled, we never will. Sorry, guys.

Actually, I am seeing a lot of turrets lately. I guess that people will stop using them once the fad fades and they realize that the buffs are irrelevant since the turret is going to be oneshot.

I agree. I think a lot of people are testing the waters because it looks nice on paper, but the inherent problems that turrets always had still remain (and it sounds like there are some new problems, such as the invisible 5 minute timer I am hearing about?)

A turret does not ask you how it should be prioritizing targets. A turret can be quickly destroyed (regardless of the slight boost to their health). A turret does not follow you from Point A to Point B. You have zero control and zero mobility. Tweaking the damage and health bars of such things doesn’t change the inherent flaws.

Am I saying I would never use them? No, I absolutely would. In fact, my current build has a rifle turret taking up a utility slot… Because I want that Surprise Shot for my SD build. ;P Oh, you meant am I actually putting the turret itself down on the ground? Hahahaha! NO. Of course I’m not… that would be silly!

Would I actually consider actually using the turret itself ever? Yep. If they were mobile, I definitely would try them out. Perhaps if:

- turrets rolled around with you on tank treads or sprouted little helicopter rotors and moved around with you
- and always changed their target prio to whatever YOU are hitting
- and could be “locked down” to gain health and toughness when you are point-guarding, and then could be made lighter and more mobile when you want to move on

Ehhh… I know. I’m just dreaming, now…

WAIT A MINUTE!!! you should be using the turret like its meant to be…… as a blast finisher!!! make that thing go Boom!!

Since I’ve been running a turret control build, I really liked the buffs to turrets. It has been my experience that most criticisms levied against turrets are actually incorrect, and I am going to continue running a turret control build.

Though I do understand where people are coming from when then they complain about losing something so powerful. I remember back before the grenade nerf…

I’ll agree that build variety took a hit this patch. I do think Anet knows what it wants playing an engineer to feel like, but I don’t have much evidence to back up that theory.

NevirSayDie.6235:

I’ll agree that build variety took a hit this patch. I do think Anet knows what it wants playing an engineer to feel like, but I don’t have much evidence to back up that theory.

While nerfing KR could be considered “fine.” My biggest beef with this last patch and the ones before, is instead of buffing unused traits and skills. Anet just nerfs traits that stand out. (And then there are turrets…) I guess every flamethrower engineer should prepare themselves for the reworking of Juggernaut. This isn’t me spewing poison though, yes they nerfed KR, they also buffed EG’s SE and our turrets, fixed numerious bugs and tooltips. While the turrets still need more work than a gutted and rusted out Bronco, at least they are TRYING to make turrets useful. We had the most work done on us this patch, some growing pains are going to come with that.
Agree or disagree with me, I also believe Anet may have a general idea what they want to do with our class now. Its hard to put into words, but I want to say they want us to be some kind of tanky troll. They want us to be difficult to kill, but at the same time, to be able to punch out enough dps and heals to be somewhat potent. Just an observation though.

sunnypsyop.3025:

So now we have lost our kit-swapping builds; the general consensus seems to be that most people feel KR is no longer worth having, and Engies everywhere are scrambling to find a new viable build.

I agree that KR is no longer worth having, mainly because the abilities do not last long enough to be considered useful. The only use I can see from KR from this point, till the next patch, is stacking vulnerability with the EG and maybe the magnetic bomb from the Bomb kit. however this is where our opinions on this patch, and the Engineer in general diverge. The Engineer has more build options than any other class, in most cases we have more toys as well. Start thinking outside the box, yes it took me 3 hours to create a build up to snuff as the one I was using before the latest patch. Guess what? The build I am now using is even better than its predecessor. As I said earlier, we got the most attention than any class this last patch, growing pains are going to come with that.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Since I’ve been running a turret control build, I really liked the buffs to turrets. It has been my experience that most criticisms levied against turrets are actually incorrect, and I am going to continue running a turret control build.

- turrets are immobile, and therefore turret builds lack mobility
- turrets cannot be ordered to prioritize targets
- turrets are easily AoE’d to death / focused down and therefore cause the Engineer to become extremely vulnerable with nothing else to back them up once they go down
- turrets draw craaaazy aggro

How exactly are these “criticisms” incorrect? And… I know that sounds super antagonistic in text, but I’m actually just asking here. Because in my mind, when you say “criticisms,” I am thinking, “… you mean the facts?” I’m glad you’re satisfied with your turret build. But most of us who know what 100 Nades, KR kitswaps, etc were capable of… we look at turrets and say, “Is this some kind of sick joke?”

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Though I do understand where people are coming from when then they complain about losing something so powerful. I remember back before the grenade nerf…

I would never argue that 100 ‘Nades was a broken (yet hilarious and super-trolly) build. I can see why they’d nerf the Grenade Barrage to put a stop to 100 Nades. Then again they haven’t “fixed” other classes that can do 1-shot K.O. combos. -cough- … You know who you are.

It’s not just losing something “powerful” that I don’t understand, however. It’s that they changed every single proc on every single kit. Some of them were garbage and really needed re-tooling, but come on? Adding an invisible CD to the procs was simply insult to injury for KR. The way I explained to one of my non-Engi friends, “It’s kind of like if your #6 heal skill put all your other utilities on CD every time you used it. And they won’t even let you see the CD timer.” And yes, I realize it doesn’t actually put the utilities on CD, but it wastes the entire reason you would have taken the KR trait in the first place.

Anyways…

I actually switched over to Static Discharge and bought all my gear for it over a week ago, because I knew that they were going to be breaking some of my favourite 3-kit builds that I have been running since launch. It just really saddens me to see one of the most versatile, unique, and challenging classes get so dumbed down, shoved off into its own less-than-spectacular corner. ANet crams turrets down our throats and tells us to stop being creative with our endless possible kit combinations and procs. “Engineer! Stop being awesome! Stop being fun! Stop having so many build possibilities to choose from! STOP BEING DIFFERENT! STOP BEING CLEVER!” Wellll… -okayface-

sunnypsyop.3025:

Am I saying I would never use them? No, I absolutely would. In fact, my current build has a rifle turret taking up a utility slot… Because I want that Surprise Shot for my SD build. ;P Oh, you meant am I actually putting the turret itself down on the ground? Hahahaha! NO. Of course I’m not… that would be silly!

I bring Rifle Turret on much the same principle… but there are times when it is actually worth putting down. SD loses a lot of its damage when there’s only one target available, but dropping the turret (and overcharging it) means you get some focused damage on that target. Even in more general situations, if you’re cunning about it, you can drop it right after using Surprise Shot, overcharge, and then pick it up or detonate it as appropriate for the situation all before Surprise Shot recharges, and you’ve lost nothing at all.

I am actually considering experimenting with doing something similar with Flame Turret, but that will depend on how accurately I can aim so both Throw Napalm and Static Discharge hit. Probably be a trick for tightly packed waves where it’s going to hit either way.

sunnypsyop.3025:

Am I saying I would never use them? No, I absolutely would. In fact, my current build has a rifle turret taking up a utility slot… Because I want that Surprise Shot for my SD build. ;P Oh, you meant am I actually putting the turret itself down on the ground? Hahahaha! NO. Of course I’m not… that would be silly!

I won’ bother responding to much in this thread, mostly because most of the stuff you post is wrong, and tells a story about many of you not having any idea about what your actually doing! I would you like to point out one thing I see more and more of you think: this!

First of, just my putting down the Turret, and pressing the detonate will increase you damage output in a SD build! Why? Because that will trigger another SD! Oh my! All ready your wrong!
Okay, let’s assume we run a standard SD build then (which means mos have 20 points in tools and suprice shot got 7 seconds of cooldown), that’s still 7 seconds, where you can put down your Turret and Overcharge it, and in a 1vs1, that means my Turret is gonna put out about 3-4k free bonus damage on the target, followed by a detonate that as above said trigger a SD

I’m not sure if your being serious or not, but a comment like that ain’t helpful or constructive in any way, just stupid! And so what if your in a 1vs2, and the Turret DPS another target? that can keep pressure on other people as well, I would prefer I could control where it was shottting sure! But it ain’t “broken” either atm (might be in PvE, but I only use them for boss fights anyway)

timidobserver.7925:

sunnypsyop.3025:

Now we have “buffed” turrets, but you notice that no one in their right mind is talking about making builds with turrets. Still. ANet clearly recognized that no one was using them, and is trying to fix that. They really, really want us to like the stupid things, but we just don’t. We never did, we still don’t, and unless turrets get completely re-tooled, we never will. Sorry, guys.

Actually, I am seeing a lot of turrets lately. I guess that people will stop using them once the fad fades and they realize that the buffs are irrelevant since the turret is going to be oneshot.

You see people use them because they are trying them out. But since they are crap still you will stop seeing them.

Anything remotely useful is Net + Flame turret but problem is you can’t aim net, well ai in general sucks and both die in 1-2 shots from random aoe

/agree with most, but i think we can be as bunky as any class

Amadeus.5687:

I won’ bother responding to much in this thread,

Mhm? Go on? In the thread? About how you aren’t going to respond to the thread…?

Amadeus.5687:

First of, just my putting down the Turret, and pressing the detonate will increase you damage output in a SD build! Why? Because that will trigger another SD! Oh my! All ready your wrong!

Okay, let me clarify – putting down the turret and immediately blowing it up, if you happen to be in range of your target for that to have any effect at all, sure. What I meant was, I would never drop a turret with the intention of using it as another source of ongoing damage, the way that they were clearly intended to be. If they weren’t intended to be used as a turret that sits there and fires bullets, then they would have just made them… um, bombs. We already have those.

I’m pretty sure it was obvious that wasn’t my point, wasn’t relevant, and wasn’t the topic of the discussion though, so now I kinda think you are just a troll. I’m glad it made you feel better about yourself, though.

Amadeus.5687:

I’m not sure if your being serious or not, but a comment like that ain’t helpful or constructive in any way, just stupid!

At least we can agree on something about one another…

Thank you for adding absolutely nothing worthwhile to this discussion about what direction Engineer is taking, with your completely useless, unfounded, assumption-based analysis of my personal playstyle. Please now, go get back under your bridge.

Killyox.3950:

timidobserver.7925:

sunnypsyop.3025:

Now we have “buffed” turrets, but you notice that no one in their right mind is talking about making builds with turrets. Still. ANet clearly recognized that no one was using them, and is trying to fix that. They really, really want us to like the stupid things, but we just don’t. We never did, we still don’t, and unless turrets get completely re-tooled, we never will. Sorry, guys.

Actually, I am seeing a lot of turrets lately. I guess that people will stop using them once the fad fades and they realize that the buffs are irrelevant since the turret is going to be oneshot.

You see people use them because they are trying them out. But since they are crap still you will stop seeing them.

Anything remotely useful is Net + Flame turret but problem is you can’t aim net, well ai in general sucks and both die in 1-2 shots from random aoe

Turrets CAN be useful. You just can’t drop them in front of someone and hope they work. If you’re sneaky about /where/ you place your turrets (against walls, above on roofs, around corners), the enemy often time won’t even notice them so long as you distract them. Just don’t use the melee-ranged turrets.

Granted, this is in a sPvP setting. You still have an amazingly hard time to even detonate your turret immediately after deployment in a PvE setting. Even before Healing Turret’s first proc. WvW is even worse.

First of, I meant the first part as I only would bother respond to that part about SD, and also this is my last respond, cause your clearly don’t have any idea about what a constructive discussion is what that respond haha

Nice work ignoring the part where I talk about how just dropping it for 7 seconds also would increase your damage output aswell as an outgoing damage, and seeing as your build is a SD build, and not a Turret focused build, it wouldn’t make any sense for you to be dependt on the damage output from turrets alone! They are actually also designed to be used in builds aswell where you blow them up, and not only builds where you place them (see how they work with SD and Accelrated Packet Turrets)! I’m doing quite well with testing that out in WvW now, so funny how that works huh Sunny?

Also just because that’s the only video data I have my hands on (and that’s even before the patch that just buffed the turrets): This Engineer use the Turrets as another source of out going damage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oaqw8bQh-DA
Oh no, breaking the law! His actually boosting his damage by burning from the Rocket Turret he let stand there and auto attack!

Also, a lot of testing is going on atm. on new ways to use the Turrets for damage, in sPvP I see a lot of testing going on! It’s way to early just judge anything yet about how usefull they are! Now, you can keep being a Immature about this if you want, and I’m 100% in my right to analysis your playstyle from what you wrote:

“Am I saying I would never use them? No, I absolutely would. In fact, my current build has a rifle turret taking up a utility slot… Because I want that Surprise Shot for my SD build. ;P Oh, you meant am I actually putting the turret itself down on the ground? Hahahaha! NO. Of course I’m not… that would be silly!”

Because you clearly have no idea about what’s going on if that’s what you believe, and you should’t spout nonsens! Have a nice day sunny boy

Amadeus.5687:

Also, a lot of testing is going on atm. on new ways to use the Turrets for damage, in sPvP I see a lot of testing going on! It’s way to early just judge anything yet about how usefull they are! Now, you can keep being a Immature about this if you want, and I’m 100% in my right to analysis your playstyle from what you wrote:

“Am I saying I would never use them? No, I absolutely would. In fact, my current build has a rifle turret taking up a utility slot… Because I want that Surprise Shot for my SD build. ;P Oh, you meant am I actually putting the turret itself down on the ground? Hahahaha! NO. Of course I’m not… that would be silly!”

Because you clearly have no idea about what’s going on if that’s what you believe, and you should’t spout nonsens! Have a nice day sunny boy

Sunny girl* please, if you have to come up with condescending and stupid nicknames for me in order to respond to my posts.

I guess you conveniently decided to ignore the part where I clarified that putting the turret down so you could blow it up was obvious, but to me the idea of using the turret to sit there and (theoretically) do damage (in reality: die in the next AoE) was laughable. The fact is, that is what ANet wants us to do – why would they give health buffs to something you are supposed to immediately detonate and blow up? They wouldn’t. If they wanted us only taking turrets so that we could detonate them, they would have left them alone. They are tinkering around with turrets trying to figure out how to get players to use them and ignoring the fundamental problems of the turrets themselves. Kind of the way you are ignoring the point of this thread.

I’m glad that this thread could serve as a convenient medium for you to barge in, swagger around feeling smug and superior because you know so much more than me about Engineer’s pathetic kitten turrets. Unfortunately, you’ve also made yourself look like a total fool, because that isn’t at all the topic of the thread.

As disappointed as I was finding that all of my KR builds suddenly were not only nerfed but useless, I think they actually made a more clear statement on what they want us to be this patch: Condition Damage, with area control thrown in since we can’t match a Necro.

The nerfs to other professions actually raised us up a bit despite how they butchered KR, and now I’m playing my conditions builds and doing better, because Thieves are less of an issue, and Rangers can’t insta-spike anymore… seems like things have evened out a bit.

Anyway, so far it seems like we have 3 viable tPvP builds… SD burst, HGH, and actually, the old tried and true conditions builds work pretty well also, especially since the nerf to haste.

This is only a day or so into playing around the new patch so this could change as I play more.

@Amadeus

I don’t think you know what you are talking about.
You want to basically call someone a liar and excuse them of writing completely false information and all you back it up with is your opinion.
(BTW since SD works differently with skills that are targetted or not targetted the SD produced from Detonating Turrets will go straight into the ground more often than hitting the enemy)

We are 7months into the game I think all the testing tht can be done with Turrets has already been done to the point that if the only fix is messing around with stats and CD it wont take long to further test their general uselessness.

You are also defending Turrets by pointing out the gimmick way they can be used, which is deploy and instadetonate, that is the same type of gimmick as the Barrage Burst. So even if someone manages to create a build focused aroung quick detonation, history shows that it wouldnt be long before that got changed.
Every attack skill we have could potentially add DPS so trying to say how usefull it is to deploy a Turret is nonsense, the same could be said for any other skill. In the context of a SD build the Rifle Turret has always been more useful for it TB skill, of course plopping it down will add some damage but thats only if it aims at the target you want or if the enemy is right on top of it so you can get a detonate.

Which is the other point you bring up that I don’t understand, why would anyone focus on Turrets just to Detonate them, Do you really believe that is a viable build?
That IS what this topic is about, the lack of viable builds for the Engineer because we don’t have a focus for our profession. Like the OP believes Anet lacks a solid vision of what they want to the Engineer to be and our skills and traits are so over the place that players have come up with all kinds of “uses” for what we have. Equipping Turrets just to rapid detonate them can be a nice gimmick but will leave you without stunbreakers, damage mitigation or active defense and completely relies on the enemy not figuring out that you are trying to play like a wannabe shatter mesmer, so have fun laying down turrets only to get 10 stacks of confusion slapped on then you are stuck with turrets that will kill you if you detonate or overcharge them.

I didn’t want to respond to your thread since you are a troll.
You are a troll because instead of just stating you don’t agree with someone you start your response off with claiming most the stuff the OP posts is wrong.
You claim how you have 100% the right to analyze ppl playstyles when you yourself state you only use Turrets in sPvP, IMO sPvP is the stupidest part of GW2 so your opinion means nothing and I have 100% the right to say so.
The worst part is you took a quote that was cleary made in a sarcastic tone and used that to attempt to make yourself look smart and the OP stupid( which is the exact word you used)
So you are really a self righteous troll who claims to have a magical insight into the true intention of how the profession is supposed to work and everyone else who claims or points out flaws are just players who arent as good as you or havent figured out your superior style of Turret playing.

Guess what you don’t have any! bring Turrets to fight me and after taking the 2 secs to burn them down I will destroy you.

CriSPeH.8512:

@Amadeus

I don’t think you know what you are talking about.
You want to basically call someone a liar and excuse them of writing completely false information and all you back it up with is your opinion.
(BTW since SD works differently with skills that are targetted or not targetted the SD produced from Detonating Turrets will go straight into the ground more often than hitting the enemy)

We are 7months into the game I think all the testing tht can be done with Turrets has already been done to the point that if the only fix is messing around with stats and CD it wont take long to further test their general uselessness.

You are also defending Turrets by pointing out the gimmick way they can be used, which is deploy and instadetonate, that is the same type of gimmick as the Barrage Burst. So even if someone manages to create a build focused aroung quick detonation, history shows that it wouldnt be long before that got changed.
Every attack skill we have could potentially add DPS so trying to say how usefull it is to deploy a Turret is nonsense, the same could be said for any other skill. In the context of a SD build the Rifle Turret has always been more useful for it TB skill, of course plopping it down will add some damage but thats only if it aims at the target you want or if the enemy is right on top of it so you can get a detonate.

Which is the other point you bring up that I don’t understand, why would anyone focus on Turrets just to Detonate them, Do you really believe that is a viable build?
That IS what this topic is about, the lack of viable builds for the Engineer because we don’t have a focus for our profession. Like the OP believes Anet lacks a solid vision of what they want to the Engineer to be and our skills and traits are so over the place that players have come up with all kinds of “uses” for what we have. Equipping Turrets just to rapid detonate them can be a nice gimmick but will leave you without stunbreakers, damage mitigation or active defense and completely relies on the enemy not figuring out that you are trying to play like a wannabe shatter mesmer, so have fun laying down turrets only to get 10 stacks of confusion slapped on then you are stuck with turrets that will kill you if you detonate or overcharge them.

I didn’t want to respond to your thread since you are a troll.
You are a troll because instead of just stating you don’t agree with someone you start your response off with claiming most the stuff the OP posts is wrong.
You claim how you have 100% the right to analyze ppl playstyles when you yourself state you only use Turrets in sPvP, IMO sPvP is the stupidest part of GW2 so your opinion means nothing and I have 100% the right to say so.
The worst part is you took a quote that was cleary made in a sarcastic tone and used that to attempt to make yourself look smart and the OP stupid( which is the exact word you used)
So you are really a self righteous troll who claims to have a magical insight into the true intention of how the profession is supposed to work and everyone else who claims or points out flaws are just players who arent as good as you or havent figured out your superior style of Turret playing.

Guess what you don’t have any! bring Turrets to fight me and after taking the 2 secs to burn them down I will destroy you.

I get what you’re saying here, but be careful. Just because turrets are a joke in tPvP and WvW and PvE doesn’t mean a guy can’t build a 1v1 build around them. Turrets don’t scale down no matter how tanky you build and can be a very difficult challenge to overcome if he’s CCing you the entire time you’re trying to focus a turret (assuming they are spread apart enough).

Turrets are not inherently bad, they just don’t fit into any current game modes very well due to their unreasonably long CDs.

Now, the SD build he’s referring to, is a terrible 1v1 build whether you use turrets or not.

^
I agree with you and I don’t think I could go as far to agree that Turrets are completely useless. I personally love Turrets in PvE but that is because you are more playing against different mob AI so they can be used very strategically to control mob balls.

I do completely agree with you that the problem with Turrets is they dont fit into current game modes and they are hard to build around unless you want to go for sPvP node defense, which they can do very well but not as well as other professions that also spec for full node defense.

CriSPeH.8512:

Guess what you don’t have any! bring Turrets to fight me and after taking the 2 secs to burn them down I will destroy you.

Sure. whenever your up for danceing I would love to give you a round in PvP, I’m never afraid of a challange, and I’m testing the new Turret build I’m working on!
I never stated I only use them in sPvP (With sPvP, I mean Solo Qeueueing in tPvP, because 8vs8 is to messy for me), I’m working on a WvW Turret Roaming/Duel build after the recent patch as well (which is where I spend 90% of my time), and Turret’s can actually work as a detonate/SD combo in 1vs1 combat (trainning more and more, and testing stats atm as well, to see which work)! I think it’s great we can have a gimmick way to use turrets (Detonate), and would like to see builds focused on the Long CD Turrets being placed to defend points (they will never truely be usefull in WvW that way) but in tPvP they might actually soon start to be viable, that’s what I mean with testing, a new patch just buffed them, quite to early to judge it!

The reason I point out on what the OP is typing, is she try create a topic where she want to be taken serious about balance and talk about viable builds. and she start out showing she have no idea how an actually SD detonate build work, or how much damage you can press out by dropping the turrets the right moment! Heck she even don’t get that just because a Null field, or other boon/conditon remvoal exist, it’s just a “counter” to a build, and all builds have those, nothing is perfect, and yet she make’s it sound like it’ an allmost broken build of it! If you want to be taken serious, show you actually have just a bit of knowledge about the class, and don’t just whine over stuff that ain’t prober tested! The don’t share any video data, number data, or any of the real solid arguments that’s been giving about some of Turrets problems.

I don’t claim Turret’s are perfect, nor the best or ideal build (still getting better and better for 1vs1 dueling and 1vs1 point defending)! But I’m tired of people that only whine and try shut down any construtive discussion about new stuff with pure whine, covering it up with “sarcastic” comments if you wanna call it that, when It ain’t true! She posted the topic 1 day after the patch, without any video data, actually any data at all, claiming only two viable builds could work (personal I got several builds working just fine, with video data on, so dunno what’s that about)! You simply can’t have tested/adjusted everything to all the new changes (like Culling removal, or nerfs/changes to other classes)! You simply can’t, and that’s why OP is more a troll then I will ever be!

You can call me a troll all you want, I really don’t care, I enjoy my Engineer, all the builds I can keep creating and have succes with in what I do at the game, keeps me going, I simply get tired of the ignorance you find on these forums so often!

^ Hey man I understand how frustrating it is to see so many QQs and complaints but it is even more frustrating to try and discuss a topic when it gets derailed because of a single quote taken out of context. PPL can go watch the news for 10 minutes if they want to get their fill of that.

The thread is about the lack of builds for the Engineer and how it seems to stem from a lack of vision and direction for the profession, this is something I agree with.

Just because the OP chose to state something with a tone of sarcasism doesnt mean it is fair to write them off as ignorant liars.
Everyone knows that dropping and quik detonating Rifle Turret in an SD build will net more DPS!
Everyone also knows that that extra little bit of DPS has nothing to do with why you take the Turret for SD, it is solely for the superlow CD on the Surprise Shot, if there was another TB skill from a gadget or kit that also had a superlow CD then that is what would be taken.

So the sarcastic part of her statement actually shows shes knows exactly how SD builds work.

But while I do agree we need more builds, and we need more fix and balance stuff! I simply don’t agree that there is only those two viable builds! :/ Again I play about 10 different builds in WvW now, serveral different purposes (but most are for roaming), and none of them is the two builds she post about! I even bother spending time making video’s to show just a jist of them! we got tons of different playstyle’s at our reach (some stronger then others)

I have used my builds vs some of the best WvW players, D/D elementalists like Intigo from Red Guard, pure HGH build like Maskaganda or take the creator of Shattercats builds for mesmers, Osicat, and they stand there ground against those builds! I can at least document my testing and results, and I won’t just base my opinion on something I haven’t tested out prober!

Also, the two reaons I disagree with the way she did it is:
1. She haven’t been able, no matter how you turn and twist it, to test and gather the nessacry data to judge Turrets builds in alle aspects of the game, nor which other builds that’s viable for that matter after the patch
2. When she final talk a tiny bit builds, she choice to be sarcastic apperantly (was lost on me), in combo with the above problem, and end up making herself sound like she have no idea what’s she’s doing! It’s simply hard to take anything serious then!

And I actually think that the Rifle Turret is about perfect on the damage load out now, at least in a 1vs1, when you overcharge it mine in WvW is every second hitting four roughly 650 damage, over 7seconds that’s a quite decent damage + Bleeding! At first I hated it vs Mesmers cause of clones ect, but I have begun to love how it will eat them away while I can focus on other stuff!

I don’t claim all Turrets, or all aspects of Turrets are fine, but more and more is starting to work for them, but personal it’s way to early after the patch for me to give a prober judgement on how good they are! To many changes (for us and everyone else), and to little time!

Anyway, it’s a discussion I will never win, so I won’t bother anymore, I need to get some sleep! and my offer still stands for duels if you want them!

Amadeus.5687:

But while I do agree we need more builds, and we need more fix and balance stuff! I simply don’t agree that there is only those two viable builds! :/ Again I play about 10 different builds in WvW now, serveral different purposes (but most are for roaming), and none of them is the two builds she post about! I even bother spending time making video’s to show just a jist of them! we got tons of different playstyle’s at our reach (some stronger then others)

I have used my builds vs some of the best WvW players, D/D elementalists like Intigo from Red Guard, pure HGH build like Maskaganda or take the creator of Shattercats builds for mesmers, Osicat, and they stand there ground against those builds! I can at least document my testing and results, and I won’t just base my opinion on something I haven’t tested out prober!

Also, the two reaons I disagree with the way she did it is:
1. She haven’t been able, no matter how you turn and twist it, to test and gather the nessacry data to judge Turrets builds in alle aspects of the game, nor which other builds that’s viable for that matter after the patch
2. When she final talk a tiny bit builds, she choice to be sarcastic apperantly (was lost on me), in combo with the above problem, and end up making herself sound like she have no idea what’s she’s doing! It’s simply hard to take anything serious then!

And I actually think that the Rifle Turret is about perfect on the damage load out now, at least in a 1vs1, when you overcharge it mine in WvW is every second hitting four roughly 650 damage, over 7seconds that’s a quite decent damage + Bleeding! At first I hated it vs Mesmers cause of clones ect, but I have begun to love how it will eat them away while I can focus on other stuff!

I don’t claim all Turrets, or all aspects of Turrets are fine, but more and more is starting to work for them, but personal it’s way to early after the patch for me to give a prober judgement on how good they are! To many changes (for us and everyone else), and to little time!

Anyway, it’s a discussion I will never win, so I won’t bother anymore, I need to get some sleep! and my offer still stands for duels if you want them!

Hit me up sometime, I would like that as well. I’m not convinved turrets are still so bad… 15% damage increase from toughness line + toolbelt and turret buffs + the ability to build tanky without fear of losing turret damage seems like it hasn’t been explored enough to me since the patch and I would like to see how my Engie builds stack up against.

OP, Anet has stated countless times that they want us to be ‘versatile’, nearly above everything else, which means mid-absolutely everything. Is it stupid? Yes, definitely since it’s not rewarded anywhere but WvW. Now concerning the builds… I’m not sure that we should be complaining.

MrForz.1953:

OP, Anet has stated countless times that they want us to be ‘versatile’, nearly above everything else, which means mid-absolutely everything. Is it stupid? Yes, definitely since it’s not rewarded anywhere but WvW. Now concerning the builds… I’m not sure that we should be complaining.

Actions say a lot more than words, and they made a pretty clear statement by for the fist time “Deleting” a build from the game and nerfin useless a core trait to the class that allowed for versatility..

sunnypsyop.3025:

- turrets are immobile, and therefore turret builds lack mobility
- turrets cannot be ordered to prioritize targets
turrets are easily AoE’d to death / focused down and therefore cause the Engineer to become extremely vulnerable with nothing else to back them up once they go down
turrets draw craaaazy aggro

The two bolded ones are incorrect Turrets cannot be easily AoE’d to death because they have great range even without the rifled barrels trait. An opponents AoE, no matter how large, can’t hit all of the turrets when they are placed far outside of the capture points. Even when they are placed near each other in the heat of combat, putting enough space between them is incredibly easy and takes no time to do, even without the deployable turrets trait. The shortest range turret, the thumper, has high health which allows it to last for a long time, and the second shortest range turret bellows out a smoke field for protection if need be. The trait for armored turrets is quite cheap to get as well.

If an enemy wants to “focus down” turrets, that is a win in my book. This means they have to run to each individual turret laying outside of the waypoint and DPS it down, all the while being hit by all of the effects of the turrets themselves. The net turret will keep immobilizing and stunning them, the rocket turret will keep burning them and knocking them down while doing high damage, the rifle turret will keep stacking bleeds , the flame turret will keep them nearly permanently on fire, and the thumper turret still kind of sucks which is why I don’t use it. All the while the enemy has their back to the engineer and all of their offensive and controlling skills. It is a lot to blow all of their skills getting rid of the turrets, because if they just auto attack then they’ll never DPS them fast enough. The rocket and lolthumper are the only two that have high recharges, so should all of the turrets be killed somehow then the engineer just gets access to all of their toolbelt skills for a little while before the turrets come right back again.

The idea of “drawing aggro” in PV kitten imply bunk. Pehiople act on higher reasoning than such. In PVE turrets can draw aggro if you place them into the wrong locations and leave them there, ignoring the attack range of the turret completely. This is only a problem in dungeons, however. Most of the time in PVE you place turrets where you need them, then pick them back up immediately when you don’t need them.

And this leads to my next contention with turret builds being immobile. While turrets themselves are immobile, the turret engineer really isn’t. If they aren’t holding a waypoint or a certain location, a turret engineer will plop turrets as they need them, and then once they are done with them pick up the turrets to get a good recharge bonus and head to the next point to capture or defend. For this, the engineer is only “rooted” for as long as they wish to be, and then they lose turrets only for a short duration. Most of that duration is spent getting to another capture point. If the complaint is that a turret engineer doesn’t have swiftness or anything like that, then this is also not true. The engineer can easily swap to the med kit over the healing turret then swap back as soon as they drop the swiftness + fury buff, and do so without any cooldown or losing their healing turret. The inventions line also comes with the legs mod trait, which gives a 25% speed boost while in combat.

If an engineer ever sets up an area with turrets to defend it, then they can 1vs1 any other class. To this date, in all my sPVP and tPVP I have only lost once in a 1vs1 fight, and it was against a shatter based mesmer. While I have beaten other shatter based mesmers before, that one just happened to be skilled enough to beat average ole’ me.

3/5 utility turrets have short range :| Rifle & Rocket are the longest range, but also the squishiest

Thumper turret has 12k hp! that’s not a lot, specially in AoE :P!

and no sir! 50s cool down because they targeted turret is not a win

Wow… I came back to way more ranting than I can ever get around to answering to. :/ Anyway, here’s my 5am attempt:

Crisp is right: “[…] since SD works differently with skills that are targetted or not targetted the SD produced from Detonating Turrets will go straight into the ground more often than hitting the enemy)” … I do use Detonate in my SD build (and I told you that before, Amadeus, but you don’t even read my posts), it’s a really nice fast blast finisher when the Commander calls for Fire/Water fields and wants a blast-through, or that random moment when I could use the regen and one of my comrades happens to have up a field for that (or whatever). But I play my SD mostly at range, and running up to a huge group when I am stacking glass cannon gear just to drop a turret for a few extra K dmg seems… um, well, suicidal, especially since if I really need to get in the extra damage I can dodge and kite around enough until the next SD combo is up (ten whole kittenin’ seconds!!). Not saying my way is the ONLY way to play, but let’s face it – you turret kids are sorely outnumbered in the Engi community, except for amongst the new players who got the memo that we have turrets, and didn’t get the one about turrets sucking. Not sayin’ nothin’, just sayin’…

Mkay so I am real sarcastic the way I write… it doesn’t come off well in text, and I understand that. Sorry. Except this time I am not being sarcastic, Amadeus, you are a troll, and telling me to L2P isn’t helping Engineers out at all. Which was my aim with this thread – to help Engies, and to get us to start thinking about WHAT we want to be and what we should start pushing for. Not a moronic argument about how your turrets are so awesome and how many people you stomp with them 1v1. Irrelevant.

Lemme give you a lil history lesson:

In the Beginning, the Devs created Engi, and they saw that it was good. “I shall give you turrets,” he said with a not-so benevolent gleam in his eye. “But Devs!” we cried, “How can we live on those kittenin’ turrets alone!? We need the EDEN that are called Elixirs and Kits, also!!! We want to be mad scientists, we want to throw a turret over there, drink an elixir here, blow something up way over yonder – and BE ALL THE BETTER FOR IT, because that is how you have defined us in the Bible of Character Creation!” And so, the Devs also gifted Engi with his Toolkit, his Rifle, his pistols, his shield, his Surprise Shot and Static Discharge trait, he gifted us with 25-stacks Might build, and HGH ’Nades build, and SD build, and Kit Ref— (oh wait, never mind)… anyway, he gave us ALL THESE BUILDS. And Dev said, “Go forth, my inventive and clever little child, and make builds that will blow minds and will make you unique even amongst other Engineers!” – AND WE DID.

Problem is that now we are missing half the glory that was gifted us in the first place – the ability to build-your-own-Engi and still be awesome. Now it’s either SD, HGH, or GTFO (unless you are one of the very vocal minority who still thinks turrets are awesome, and there is no hope for you). And don’t get me wrong, if you are happy with your turret build… good for you. Go play in your sandbox with your turrets. But the rest of us want real, viable builds that include… you know… all the other stuff that we have…

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

(all the stuff you said)

Not ignoring your post, BRA. If you’re happy with that, then good for you. I am glad that turrets are working out for you. I’m sad, however, that the rest of us are kittened if we want to… you know. Use all the other stuff that we have and be good at it.

Old Kr almost made multiple kits and bunker- condi removal and double super elixir (only thing left was stability)… Now you can see that kr not only killed 100nades. 100nades is also not OP, and was the sole reason for kr changes according to the last sotg.

I would never take turret heavy builds unless they offer viable aoe cc/single target damage or utility of some sort.
Pvp rarely focuses winning 1v1 fight.

Enough build killing, anet

I wouldn’t say that 100 ‘Nades wasn’t OP, but I will say that there is another sneaky broken as crap class that 1-shots with the same amount of effort that hasn’t been kittened… Oh, what? Pardon me, I stand corrected – they got 5 secs taken off their caltrops… HUGE NERF.

But once again, they could have 1) moved it up the tree 2) fixed the grenade barrage or double Super Elixir or whatever they were so freaked out about. Instead they chose to break every KR build that ever existed, and essentially put all this work into re-tooling a trait that now no one will ever use.

Woulda rather seen them take it out completely and use that time to fix the Elixir S for Asura and Scope for all of us…

The thing that people have failed to realized, they did not want to nerf 100nades, they were going for Kit refinement and and 100nades was just the excuse they used.

and yes, lots of build that do way more than 100nades, it used to hit for around 14-15k on sPVP ( where the “problem” was coming from ) and i have screen shots from my warrior hitting 17.2k 1,500 range on a 10s cool down lol..

google.3709:

The thing that people have failed to realized, they did not want to nerf 100nades, they were going for Kit refinement and and 100nades was just the excuse they used.

and yes, lots of build that do way more than 100nades, it used to hit for around 14-15k on sPVP ( where the “problem” was coming from ) and i have screen shots from my warrior hitting 17.2k 1,500 range on a 10s cool down lol..

My guildie has an! SS (really, filter?) of his Zerker Warrior doing a 37k hit in a dungeon. I heard complaints about some SS of a 100 ‘Nades Engie doing 24k damage and ANet has a heart attack over it. Guess they forgot that we had to perfectly-time a setup in which we pull/immobilize, run INSIDE the enemy at risk of great peril, and blow ourselves up to do the combo. Meanwhile, the Zerker just keeps on swingin’ that sword…

that 24k was fake tho. or they set it up by hitting a lvl 1 in WvW ;] ohh.. and don’t forget that 100nades was 16 granades, that each had a different chance to crit, even on the wiki says "damage is inconsistent ", with with this warrior is kill or no crit and even non crits hit for 7k’s LOL

i just crit an 18k on this ranger’s face, he was pretty confused as to what killed him lol

@Sunny, poor little you, how can you live in such a small world, with such little knowledge about what you spout out? Turret kid? me? You don’t have any freaking idea then! I have created multiple different builds, made videos showcasing them in Roaming WvW and in combat vs some of the better palyers!

Want an build that’s quite viable for solo roaming, small groups and dueling? , and not a one of the two you name? Where you got a open utility spot for just whatever you want? take a look at those videos then:
How about one of the most famous mesmers, and one of the most used builds, the Shatter build?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QYvtwX8v5c

Or, maybe, you would like some mixed action vs a Pure HGH build, one of the buidls you claim being the “only viable builds?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEniANYYKRQ

or how about a mixed video of both Power builds and condition builds vs one of the best Elementalists? would you like that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ON85Lk_qvs

Want something else? what about a build that actually can get a gadget working?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKaXSZ8y0D0

Or how about a burst build, that don’t need 100nad?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYK0s_zT2zE

That’s called data, and testing builds, showing what you learn! I don’t claim my builds are the best of the best, but I sure as one can prove they work in WvW, which I create them for!

Now, I really admire that you want to help Engineers, but the problem is, you do the exact opposite, your killing experimenting and testing out new builds! When you make posts like this, claiming which build are viable and which that ain’t, one freaking single day after a major balance patch, and you even have to take into account not just ours, but also other classes balance changes!
You have no data, you have no real suggestions, you don’t bring anything, not a single thing, that could “help engineers to find them self”! You don’t give new builds a chance, you don’t evne come up with a build to talk about, all you do, is whine and shutting down ideas without testing it!

But you know what? your wrong! If you want to live in your own little “sandbox”, where only two builds is viable! fine by me! Have all the fun you want, then you and google can sit and “have fun” with those big Warriors numbers, the class atm seen as the WORST PvP class in the game!

Have fun with that, cause I’m done with this!

@aydenunited.5729 I would love to do some duels and testing with you, I will contact you when I got the time, a bit busy this weekend!

Amadeus.5687:

…

Everyone is wrong sometimes. A few days ago you were insisting that backpack regenerator scaled with healing power and could reach 350 hps. So if someone else is wrong on the Internet and making ridiculous claims, like turrets not being viable, I recommend reacting calmly. Especially since turrets are at best a niche build.