Guild Wars 2

Can anyone explain why Natural Vigor is 5 pt talent and Adrenal Implant is a 30pt?

Text seems same but maybe I am just not getting it

Natural Vigor : Increases endurance regeneration by 50%.
Adrenal Implant : 50% faster endurance regeneration.

Even though wording is kinda different isn’t it same thing or am I missing something?

Hmm.
Not sure if you are being sneaky or just honost.
They are the exact same effect just the wording is different.

Why the Engineer Trait cost 30 and the Ranger Trait 5?
No Idea!
Maybe its because players that can stay at range and have the aid of a pet need to dodge more than the medium armoured class that has to stay within mid-melee range!
…………………………………………………………………wait that can’t be…………….hmmm

There are crappy traits among all the classes. This is one of them for the Engi, especially considering it’s position. I’d rather it give you an additional dodge by raising the maximum or something, although that kind of change would require UI work.

Always Prepared
Armor Mods
Adrenal Implant
Target the Maimed
Low Health Response System
Energy Conversion Matrix

Are all traits that are inferior to similar traits across other professions. Either by being higher in the tree, or by being numerically inferior.

It’s part of the design of engineer.

About half of the traits were chosen by rolling a die to copy traits from other professions and randomly place them in the engineer trait lines.

Other classes merely adopted the RNG. Engineers were born in it.

It’s because Engineers already have ridiculously high adrenaline gain from the tools traitline via adrenaline pump. In addition to easily available permanent vigor and swiftness… It makes engineers have a ridiculous number of dodges.

ClassyBear.5078:

It’s because Engineers already have ridiculously high adrenaline gain from the tools traitline via adrenaline pump. In addition to easily available permanent vigor and swiftness… It makes engineers have a ridiculous number of dodges.

Yeah, blowing all of our toolbelt skills to almost gain an entire dodge is sure ridiculous!

maybe not that way but still…

But going 10 more in alchemy is always a safer bet than 30 in tools.

because that trait (vigor) is actually good, and not only by engineer standards but like really good (BAM NERF HAMMER!).

miriforst.1290:

ClassyBear.5078:

It’s because Engineers already have ridiculously high adrenaline gain from the tools traitline via adrenaline pump. In addition to easily available permanent vigor and swiftness… It makes engineers have a ridiculous number of dodges.

Yeah, blowing all of our toolbelt skills to almost gain an entire dodge is sure ridiculous!

maybe not that way but still…

But going 10 more in alchemy is always a safer bet than 30 in tools.

because that trait (vigor) is actually good, and not only by engineer standards but like really good (BAM NERF HAMMER!).

What is funny is that they nerfed our vigor gain months ago to have 5CD. But Ele just got it nerfed(changed) last patch. That is one reason eles where so hard to kill was 2min vigor uptime. Now though it is kinda only 100% uptime in combat because in “nerf” they made it 100% chance on crit and not 33%

Because having a lot of dodge is “a part of the package” for rangers. It’s a design choice for the class and something they are supposed to be very good at. Engineers are also given this trait, but they are not supposed to be as good dodgers as rangers, so the same trait is more difficult to obtain. No other class has such a trait. Poor necros don’t even get any vigor.

There is a similar thing going on with Energy Conversion Matrix, which gives you +1% damage for each boon. Both guardians and eles have the same trait in the same position (minor grandmaster), but the ele gets 2% bonus damage per boon, while the guardian and engi only gets 1%.

Telegraph.7509:

Because having a lot of dodge is “a part of the package” for rangers. It’s a design choice for the class and something they are supposed to be very good at. Engineers are also given this trait, but they are not supposed to be as good dodgers as rangers, so the same trait is more difficult to obtain. No other class has such a trait. Poor necros don’t even get any vigor.

There is a similar thing going on with Energy Conversion Matrix, which gives you +1% damage for each boon. Both guardians and eles have the same trait in the same position (minor grandmaster), but the ele gets 2% bonus damage per boon, while the guardian and engi only gets 1%.

Best answer. I would say it’s because engineers have a lot of other ways to get vigor/dodges, but this trait doesn’t stack with vigor so it doesn’t matter. The bottom line is, they just wanted rangers to get their survivability from evasion/dodging.

Those are both terrible explanations, unless you can justify ever choosing adrenal implants over invigorating speed + (speedy kits or infused precision).

luckywaldo.6089:

Those are both terrible explanations, unless you can justify ever choosing adrenal implants over invigorating speed + (speedy kits or infused precision).

A terrible explanation may unfortunately be the correct one.

Why? Cause everyone knows builds defining traits should be grandmaster traits worth 30 points such as natural vigor and automated bomb dispenser, not some lowly traits such as static discharge and kit refinement!

Moddo.7105:

Can anyone explain why Natural Vigor is 5 pt talent and Adrenal Implant is a 30pt?

Text seems same but maybe I am just not getting it

Natural Vigor : Increases endurance regeneration by 50%.
Adrenal Implant : 50% faster endurance regeneration.

Even though wording is kinda different isn’t it same thing or am I missing something?

Maybe it’s different in PvE but in PvP: Vigor provides 100% increased endurance regeneration. Which would seem to make it superior to Adrenal Implant except that the Engi only has access to Vigor via luck o the RNG on Elixir H toolbelt skill or the Invigorating Speed trait. The obvious synergy of Speedy Kits and Invigorating speed gives a nice 5(+) seconds of vigor on demand. However, Adrenal Implant offers a constant 50% increase to endurance regeneration which can offer a decent dmg increase through the 25pt minor trait Enduring Damage (10% dmg when endurance is full). Ultimately its just two different ways for doing the same thing.

Different strokes for different folks, ya dig?

not really, no. it’s a provably worse effect for a larger trait investment than other options. there’s no argument for adrenal implant.

The reason the Ranger has their trait in that position can easily be attributed to them being more of an evasion survival mechanic. That’s fine and makes sense. Adrenal Implant obviously needs work though.

There is a flaw in the general concept of doing trait by trait comparisons though. There are also a ton of garbage traits in every classes trait-lines. The Ranger also appears to be a dodge-centric survival mechanic, while the Engineer’s is kinda unclear. The Engineer can also attain perma Vigor, which is better then both these traits anyway. So there is a lot of silliness involved in comparing this to the Ranger trait, but it’s true Adrenal Implant needs to be changed.

I still would suggest something along the lines of making it compatible with Vigor, in which case it would be worth a Grandmaster trait. I honestly wish our survival mechanics were pushed more towards a moderate level of sustain. Nothing as high as a Guardian or Ele, but all of our healing skills could use alternate healing boosts. Thigs like Thrown Elixir H having a splash heal, Healing Turret actually pulsing some real direct healing alongside it’s Tool Belt skill being more easily used as a water Field, and Med Kit having the kit pickups splash their affect. Those kind of things could go a long way, but then again I have no idea what we’d do with the Adrenal Implant trait in this case.

Moddo.7105:

Can anyone explain why Natural Vigor is 5 pt talent and Adrenal Implant is a 30pt?

Sorry to revive an old thread but I have an alternative explanation. The reasoning is that Natural Vigor is on a survival-centric trait line, but Adrenal Implant is on an offensive trait line. When you spec into a defensive trait line, you’re sacrificing offensive power. However, an engineer speccing into Adrenal Implant is actually increasing in firepower.

This matters especially for zerker builds. Engineers need to spec 30 in explosives to get the power (and nade), and then need to split the remaining 40 between firearms and inventions. If you spec perma vigor then you lose 10 of that into a trait line that doesn’t help with your firepower very much. But if you spec Adrenal Implant, you get an effect that’s nearly as good (only 1.6 sec slower per dodge), doesn’t require swiftness to be first activated which may end up being just as fast, and doesn’t sacrifice firepower.

Considering that most advanced players rely much more dps+dodge than anything else, this trait justifies its place on the grandmaster tier since it is on an offensive trait line. In the end all traits take 1 slot of 3, grandmaster or not.

Elixir S will now exactly equal Mist Form
(except for the extra traits associatied with the latter)

Doesn’t look like any other thought of different playstyles or level of survivability went into that decision.
So I don’t see ANY reason why those 2 traits shouldn’t be made to be equal also.

CriSPeH.8512:

Elixir S will now exactly equal Mist Form
(except for the extra traits associatied with the latter)

Doesn’t look like any other thought of different playstyles or level of survivability went into that decision.
So I don’t see ANY reason why those 2 traits shouldn’t be made to be equal also.

They wouldn’t do this without nerfing grenade damage by another 30%.

Adrenal implant, stacks with vigor.

Natural vigor, no stacky with vigor.

While were making demands make sure to equalize energy conversion matrix and the eles bountiful power. Both at grandmaster minor traits yet one is better than the other. ele and engie equality right?

Chaith.8256:

Adrenal implant, stacks with vigor.

Natural vigor, no stacky with vigor.

Endurance refills at 5% per sec. Cap rate is at 10%. Vigor doubles natural refill, so nothing really stacks with it.

Penguin.5197:

While were making demands make sure to equalize energy conversion matrix and the eles bountiful power. Both at grandmaster minor traits yet one is better than the other. ele and engie equality right?

But eles don’t have easy access to boons like guards and engies. Nothing like elixir B anyway. That’s why they have the trait at 2% while guards and engies have 1%.

Stop giving devs excuses for giving us garbage GM traits. If anything they should do what they will do for Warriors next patch and combine the Adrednal Implant trait with Armor Mods. Then they can add something else that would be worthy of the slot.

Chaith.8256:

Adrenal implant, stacks with vigor.

Natural vigor, no stacky with vigor.

Whoah, are you sure? Because I was pretty sure it didn’t. Now I want to go test it.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Chaith.8256:

Adrenal implant, stacks with vigor.

Natural vigor, no stacky with vigor.

Whoah, are you sure? Because I was pretty sure it didn’t. Now I want to go test it.

It does not stack.

AsmallChicken.9634:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Chaith.8256:

Adrenal implant, stacks with vigor.

Natural vigor, no stacky with vigor.

Whoah, are you sure? Because I was pretty sure it didn’t. Now I want to go test it.

It does not stack.

From my testing a couple months ago, there was at least a marginal increase in endurance regen.

Chaith.8256:

AsmallChicken.9634:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Chaith.8256:

Adrenal implant, stacks with vigor.

Natural vigor, no stacky with vigor.

Whoah, are you sure? Because I was pretty sure it didn’t. Now I want to go test it.

It does not stack.

From my testing a couple months ago, there was at least a marginal increase in endurance regen.

Just tested

W/o Adrenal Mods but with vigor : 5 sec to regen from one dodge
W Adrenal Mods and vigor: 5 sec regen
W/o Adrenal Mods and no vigor: 10 sec
W Adrenal Mods and no vigor: 7.5 sec

AsmallChicken.9634:

Chaith.8256:

AsmallChicken.9634:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Chaith.8256:

Adrenal implant, stacks with vigor.

Natural vigor, no stacky with vigor.

Whoah, are you sure? Because I was pretty sure it didn’t. Now I want to go test it.

It does not stack.

From my testing a couple months ago, there was at least a marginal increase in endurance regen.

Just tested

W/o Adrenal Mods but with vigor : 5 sec to regen from one dodge
W Adrenal Mods and vigor: 5 sec regen
W/o Adrenal Mods and no vigor: 10 sec
W Adrenal Mods and no vigor: 7.5 sec

Bummer. Another one for the ‘useless under every circumstance’ pile.

Chaith.8256:

AsmallChicken.9634:

Chaith.8256:

AsmallChicken.9634:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Chaith.8256:

Adrenal implant, stacks with vigor.

Natural vigor, no stacky with vigor.

Whoah, are you sure? Because I was pretty sure it didn’t. Now I want to go test it.

It does not stack.

From my testing a couple months ago, there was at least a marginal increase in endurance regen.

Just tested

W/o Adrenal Mods but with vigor : 5 sec to regen from one dodge
W Adrenal Mods and vigor: 5 sec regen
W/o Adrenal Mods and no vigor: 10 sec
W Adrenal Mods and no vigor: 7.5 sec

Bummer. Another one for the ‘useless under every circumstance’ pile.

Except if you’re not using a build that can get vigor reliably, such as a cookie-cutter SD burster. However, we do have a number of option to make that boon fairly accessible.

Honestly, I think the ranger one is too powerful for its position. It’s the best minor trait in the Wilderness Survival line… although the Peak Strength trait can also be good when the circumstances are in your favour.

I have 10 points in Wilderness Survival on my fraudulent glass-but-not-so-cannon ranger, and the Natural Vigor trait enables him greatly. I don’t mind that its a minor trait, but it should at least be the master or grandmaster one. The protection on dodge one can probably come down.

Either that or our trait should come down, but that would apparently be overpowered. The main reasoning that would be given is that a ranger is much more reliant on their dodges for survival than an engineer is, but it’s not something I’ve found to be true… at least not to the extent it’s claimed to be.