Guild Wars 2

Q: Did Anet finnally answered to it?

It might be the 31257 thread about this topic but it seriously needs to be adressed.
No other class has this disadvantage, its not a problem in sPvP where weapons dont have stats.

Actually every other class has an advantage in WvW compared to sPvP.
They are able to take one full offensive weaponset with pow/prec/crit% and one weaponset with defensive stats, engineers cant do so, thats sad class design but i can live with it.

On the other hand engineer has this HUGE disadvantage and we are talking about a very very big disadvantage. Thats about ~400 statpoints that we loose every time we equipp kit. This also makes alot weapons unvailable like all weapons with +vit. Compared to sPvP i loose about 20%!! of damage on my kits because of this.

This class already suffers from the sigil problem and the 35446861133 bugs it has.
So plz anet, pretty plz stop carving pumpkings and finally do something about it.

Every class has a million glitches other than the divine creation that is the Warrior class. We’ve got a long waiting list…

This is a pretty serious bug that needs to be addressed.

I agree. Why should we be punished for using our profession mechanic? Ele’s don’t lose stats when they swap attunments. Why should we when we swap to kits?

What does ele have to do with it? Warriors carrying their banners suffer in the same way.

They have replied with intended fixes they are working on to solve the issues, they just haven’t implemented any yet.

I just checked, the last dev response in this forum is on page 5 currently, then a whole lot of nothing and one on page 18 again. And they all are “Hello everybody,
the original question has already been answered, so the thread will be locked.
Thanks for understanding.”

I think it’s pretty much safe to say they don’t really read these forums. Besides, you are of course right in bringing this up though.

Oh, while we’re at it, I’d like some real elite skill please, or at least allow us to put utility skills in its spot, kthxbye. Or give us signet of rage.

I don’t know how this implementation made it through beta.

No warriors and eles dont “suffer” in the same way. It’s not a core class skill for them, it’s not designed to replace weapon swapping. Yes I will admit ele summoned weapons need some work but they aren’t required for ele play and you rarely see ele’s even using their summoned weapons.

As for warriors, please, if you ever see a warrior beating something down with his banner he’s either trolling or a noob. Banners are for buffs, not for fighting.

Bard.7215:

Every class has a million glitches other than the divine creation that is the Warrior class. We’ve got a long waiting list…

If you’re going to spout off, know what you’re talking about; Warriors have a lot of bugs, just like everyone else.

How do we know that the kits are not balanced around not having these stats? If they are then why does it matter?

I’d never even considered this. Do we seriously lose the stats of our weapons when we switch to a kit?

I’ve been really worried about Engineers lately and would love if upcoming patch changes help the class out.

Yes, we seriously lose our weapon stats when using a kit. No, it isn’t balanced, because SPvP engineers do NOT lose their stats (all stats are on an amulet), and our skills are (or will be) balanced according to SPvP. PvE and WvW engineers are roughly 7% less effective than their SPvP and TPvP counterparts.

How do we know that the kits are not balanced around not having these stats? If they are then why does it matter?

Because kits are a fundamental part of engineer play, much like elementalist elements. Having such a feature ignore weapon stats and damage means our class is inherently worse at scaling than any other class in the game.

nofo.8469:

How do we know that the kits are not balanced around not having these stats? If they are then why does it matter?

Because kits are a fundamental part of engineer play, much like elementalist elements. Having such a feature ignore weapon stats and damage means our class is inherently worse at scaling than any other class in the game.

Not to mention all of the conversations and post Anet employee’s made on the forums when we discussed this during bets, and shortly after launch. They verified it was an issue, and stated that they were working on a fix for it. Similar to what they stated about kit auto attacks as well.

I’m not sure how many times this needs to be said, but let’s try again:

It’s not a bug, it doesn’t have to be “fixed”. It’s exactly how it’s intended.

If it did apply with weapon kits then the already-powerful Engineer class would be overpowered. Stop spending time complaining on the forums and spend more time getting better at using a very powerful class. If you don’t want to spend that time, go make a Warrior.

Lande.5782:

I’m not sure how many times this needs to be said, but let’s try again:

It’s not a bug, it doesn’t have to be “fixed”. It’s exactly how it’s intended.

If it did apply with weapon kits then the already-powerful Engineer class would be overpowered. Stop spending time complaining on the forums and spend more time getting better at using a very powerful class. If you don’t want to spend that time, go make a Warrior.

Errr what? No this is not how it was intended, don’t make stuff up.

The kits have a damage value like a sPvP weapon but with no sigil slot. The result is that the engineer is missing all the other stats that can be found on weapons, including the sigil effects, when using a kit. This also means the engineer has no means to customise their weapon stats in a kit-heavy build.

They are outright missing numbers from their stat totals when using a kit.

There is no way that’s working as intended.

Lande.5782:

I’m not sure how many times this needs to be said, but let’s try again:

It’s not a bug, it doesn’t have to be “fixed”. It’s exactly how it’s intended.

If it did apply with weapon kits then the already-powerful Engineer class would be overpowered. Stop spending time complaining on the forums and spend more time getting better at using a very powerful class. If you don’t want to spend that time, go make a Warrior.

Why are you assuming we don’t know how to play engineer?

Why do you feel as though engineers are OP in SPvP?

Why did ArenaNet say they were working on a fix if it is intended?

Your post is so full of stupid it makes my head hurt.

Lande.5782:

I’m not sure how many times this needs to be said, but let’s try again:

It’s not a bug, it doesn’t have to be “fixed”. It’s exactly how it’s intended.

If it did apply with weapon kits then the already-powerful Engineer class would be overpowered. Stop spending time complaining on the forums and spend more time getting better at using a very powerful class. If you don’t want to spend that time, go make a Warrior.

Pretty much when they posted that they were in the process of finding a fix for this. It was a fairly dead give away, and I pointed this out previously in this thread.

hrm…so is this why I feel like I’m not doing as much damage when I switch to kits such as elixir gun or flame thrower, is because the damage on the weapon are not carrying over to the kits? If so, that sucks because I feel like I hardly do any damage to the monsters at all I usually just end up using my gun

hrm…so is this why I feel like I’m not doing as much damage when I switch to kits such as elixir gun or flame thrower, is because the damage on the weapon are not carrying over to the kits? If so, that sucks because I feel like I hardly do any damage to the monsters at all I usually just end up using my gun

You should be using kits to supplement your gun imo, still no reason for kits not to scale however.

And saying that, rifles aren’t particularly good as a main weapon. I outlined the reasons I believe this is the case in this thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Any-words-on-Engineer-changes/first#post630403

Whahh Whahh Whahh
They arent fixing it fast enough.
Whahh Whahh Whahh
I have no patience.
Whahh Whahh Whahh
So when is the new iPhone coming out its almost been a WHOLE year
Whahh Whahh Whahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Its not like it is the single largest most wide spread bug in the game

I think this issue has been known since the first beta weekend event.
The fact that it hasn’t been fixed yet is a little concerning, especially since a fair amount of engineers complain about it.
I do consider it one of our most important bug fixes as it effects not one utility skill, but 6 utility skills.

I’m going to preface this with the fact that I just started an engineer (lvl 21) and tend to not spvp. The complaint seems to be similar to a mesmer complaining about how his greatsword stats and sigil aren’t counted when s/he has a staff equipped as the primary weapon.

An elementalist has his attunements but their weapon skills are still based upon the weapon, so the mechanics for engineers are not the same thus the argument that elementalists get their weapon stats/sigils is a poor argument.

Honestly, if the damage using kits is too small then you should say they need to increase the coefficients so that the kits scale better since they draw on a smaller stat pool. Or argue for innate boons that appear when a kit is equipped to mimic the effects of sigils.

Saying you want stats from something that is not equipped is a kitteny demand that doesn’t play into the mechanic at all.

Rain.2108:

I’m going to preface this with the fact that I just started an engineer (lvl 21) and tend to not spvp. The complaint seems to be similar to a mesmer complaining about how his greatsword stats and sigil aren’t counted when s/he has a staff equipped as the primary weapon.

An elementalist has his attunements but their weapon skills are still based upon the weapon, so the mechanics for engineers are not the same thus the argument that elementalists get their weapon stats/sigils is a poor argument.

Honestly, if the damage using kits is too small then you should say they need to increase the coefficients so that the kits scale better since they draw on a smaller stat pool. Or argue for innate boons that appear when a kit is equipped to mimic the effects of sigils.

Saying you want stats from something that is not equipped is a kitteny demand that doesn’t play into the mechanic at all.

SPvP its fine and balanced because your stats come from items aside from weapons.

The mesmer example, just.. no? Can the mesmer put sigils in the staff or use stats from it when using staff?

Elementalist elements and engineer kits provide the same use effectively, different skillsets at the expense of not using multiple weapons. The only difference is elementalists scale with weapons and engineers don’t.

You seem to be arguing from the perspective that abilities that equip a different weapon shouldn’t have your main weapon stats is fine logic wise but gameplay wise it blows.

Your suggestion is just a bad version of scaling it to weapon damage and stats as it does not allow customisation at all, and still has the problem that having a grey main weapon is just as effective as having a legendary main weapon when it comes to using kits, which are often used more often than the main weapon itself.

How doesn’t it play into the mechanic? Kits are designed to supplement your main weapon with utility, having it so you become weaker the moment you equip them is stupid, having it so there is little reward or customisation for improving your main weapon is stupid.

Rain.2108:

I’m going to preface this with the fact that I just started an engineer (lvl 21) and tend to not spvp. The complaint seems to be similar to a mesmer complaining about how his greatsword stats and sigil aren’t counted when s/he has a staff equipped as the primary weapon.

Saying you want stats from something that is not equipped is a kitteny demand that doesn’t play into the mechanic at all.

No. You don’t get it. That mesmer won’t have the stats from his greatsword, but he will have the stats from his staff.

Stat-wise using kits is the equivalent of being unarmed. That is the issue. Supposed endgame stats from weapons total 400 stats. Engg are complaining that we miss out on those 400 stats by using our kits.

It would be different if let’s say bomb kit provided 100 power 200 toughness 100 vitality. And for those who would counter saying it would be imba at low lvs, make it scale. 100/80 x player lv. But then that solution would limit what stats we actually want (no customization at all).

nofo.8469:

SPvP its fine and balanced because your stats come from items aside from weapons.

The mesmer example, just.. no? Can the mesmer put sigils in the staff or use stats from it when using staff?

Elementalist elements and engineer kits provide the same use effectively, different skillsets at the expense of not using multiple weapons. The only difference is elementalists scale with weapons and engineers don’t.

You seem to be arguing from the perspective that abilities that equip a different weapon shouldn’t have your main weapon stats is fine logic wise but gameplay wise it blows.

Your suggestion is just a bad version of scaling it to weapon damage and stats as it does not allow customisation at all, and still has the problem that having a grey main weapon is just as effective as having a legendary main weapon when it comes to using kits, which are often used more often than the main weapon itself.

How doesn’t it play into the mechanic? Kits are designed to supplement your main weapon with utility, having it so you become weaker the moment you equip them is stupid, having it so there is little reward or customisation for improving your main weapon is stupid.

Mesmer example does work because what weapon is equipped when you have a flamethrower out? A Flamethrower, why would pistol stats work towards the weapon that is literally in your hands?

To your point about customization and the differences between masterwork vs legendary weapon stats….you want more customization for the class that has access to the most abilities while in combat? And are you complaining that you don’t have to grind for a legendary weapon spending a ton of gold, time, and energy? Those are amazing perks to the engineer class.

seetoo.9316:

It would be different if let’s say bomb kit provided 100 power 200 toughness 100 vitality. And for those who would counter saying it would be imba at low lvs, make it scale. 100/80 x player lv. But then that solution would limit what stats we actually want (no customization at all).

….This is a slight adjustment to my point, but it is essentially the argument I made. Do not have kits use bonuses for weapons that are essentially unequipped, but give them some bonus. This could be in the form of better scaling (since they rely on a smaller stat pool since the weapon is not counted) or a straight bonus like you said.

From what I have read on this argument is that people want their pistol or rifle stats to be used when they have a flamethrower or elixir gun literally in your hands. I say if your going to complain, legitimate or not, ask for better scaling or innate bonuses on kits not that you want your unequipped weapon to affect your stats.

I’m going to explain exactly why this is not going to happen, but first I will like to tell a little about myself.

I’m a former Attunment Elementalist, viability was in my blood. I believe that any class that allows for chaining of many skills have much more potential then a few but good skills. In a GW2, it’s not about what skill you used but how you used them. Believe me when I said I understood the Elementalist. Elementalist has this viability potential by design! Unfortunately, because of that they also suffer from and effect I call “the hybrid” effect.

Elementalist, no matter how offensive or defensive you build them, will always be hybrids. This is a ball and chain that will always hold them down. What is this ball and chain?

This ball and chain is their long cool down, yet medium damage skills. I consider the weapon swap sigil for Elementalist a gift from the developers to allow the Elementalist to have more builds, because they are allowed to become less “hybrid”.

Now to Engineers!
Engineers, by having the tool kit option, is basically another version of the Elementalist from a different approach. Unlike Elementalist, Engineer are given the option to be viable. Kit Engineers are like Elementalist, but instead of Fire, Water, Wind, and Earth, you can have Fire, Fire, Water, and Wind, or Fire and Fire, or none at all. Because the Engineer can branch out in so many ways, “the hybrid” effect will completely destroy Engineers who chose not to be an “Elementalist”. How do you solve this issue?

Welcome to Kit Engineer’s ball and chain. Weapon do not scale to kits. Weapon sigil do not affect kits. This does not affect non-kit users at all. If Kit Engineers are given this these, there would be almost no reason to play an Elementalist at all! Engineers can do almost exactly what an Elementalist can do, but much better. This is not a “Warrior is a better at range then ranger” argument, you will literary able to build a Engineer that does “everything” better then an Elementalist.

If you want weapon scaling and sigil, you must be prepare for the outcome. If weapon scale and sigil works on the Engineer’s kit’s skills, cool down will be increased drastically (~200% increase in cool downs) and kit skills will be weaken. (~50% damage).

Who wants this? Kit Engineers will basically be exactly another version of an Elementalist at this point.

That, misses and sirs, is what we call balance.

Edit: I missed a point. Engineers are missing weapon swap because it’s replaced with the tool belt skill. These 4 skills is what makes an Engineer an Engineer. Although some may argue, these 4 tool belts skills are meant to compensate for weapon swap and 5 new skills. Personally, I think these 4 tool belt skills compensate very nicely. The 4 skills are usually very powerful, yet short cool down. Not using your tool belt skills is equal to not swapping your weapon as a warrior. I’m sure everyone who has understood the Engineer has already knew this, I just wanted to point it out.

No, the example with mesmer does not work at all. When a mesmer switches he gets stats and sigil from the other weapon. Every class takes advantage of their sigil and weapon stats at all times, except for the engineer. How is that fair to you? Why even bother giving kits stats, when you can just make that minor change.

What grinding for a legendary has to do with it I don’t know. Noone is forced to grind for it, it has the same stats as an exotic. Wow, what a perk for engineers, indeed.

check the wiki:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_Engineer_bugs

Lite.3819:

I’m going to explain exactly why this is not going to happen, but first I will like to tell a little about myself.

I’m a former Attunment Elementalist, viability was in my blood. I believe that any class that allows for chaining of many skills have much more potential then a few but good skills. In a GW2, it’s not about what skill you used but how you used them. Believe me when I said I understood the Elementalist. Elementalist has this viability potential by design! Unfortunately, because of that they also suffer from and effect I call “the hybrid” effect.

Elementalist, no matter how offensive or defensive you build them, will always be hybrids. This is a ball and chain that will always hold them down. What is this ball and chain?

This ball and chain is their long cool down, yet medium damage skills. I consider the weapon swap sigil for Elementalist a gift from the developers to allow the Elementalist to have more builds, because they are allowed to become less “hybrid”.

Now to Engineers!
Engineers, by having the tool kit option, is basically another version of the Elementalist from a different approach. Unlike Elementalist, Engineer are given the option to be viable. Kit Engineers are like Elementalist, but instead of Fire, Water, Wind, and Earth, you can have Fire, Fire, Water, and Wind, or Fire and Fire, or none at all. Because the Engineer can branch out in so many ways, “the hybrid” effect will completely destroy Engineers who chose not to be an “Elementalist”. How do you solve this issue?

Welcome to Kit Engineer’s ball and chain. Weapon do not scale to kits. Weapon sigil do not affect kits. This does not affect non-kit users at all. If Kit Engineers are given this these, there would be almost no reason to play an Elementalist at all! Engineers can do almost exactly what an Elementalist can do, but much better. This is not a “Warrior is a better at range then ranger” argument, you will literary able to build a Engineer that does “everything” better then an Elementalist.

If you want weapon scaling and sigil, you must be prepare for the outcome. If weapon scale and sigil works on the Engineer’s kit’s skills, cool down will be increased drastically (~200% increase in cool downs) and kit skills will be weaken. (~50% damage).

Who wants this? Kit Engineers will basically be exactly another version of an Elementalist at this point.

That, misses and sirs, is what we call balance.

Edit: I missed a point. Engineers are missing weapon swap because it’s replaced with the tool belt skill. These 4 skills is what makes an Engineer an Engineer. Although some may argue, these 4 tool belts skills are meant to compensate for weapon swap and 5 new skills. Personally, I think these 4 tool belt skills compensate very nicely. The 4 skills are usually very powerful, yet short cool down. Not using your tool belt skills is equal to not swapping your weapon as a warrior. I’m sure everyone who has understood the Engineer has already knew this, I just wanted to point it out.

Disagreed on toolbelt being reason engi has 1 weapon set. Like ele engi has one weapon set because they get their utility from kits or elements.

You are right about kits delivering the same role as elements, however the only difference is ele elements scale with weapons.

The reason engis have toolbelt skills is to offset the fact we have to give up 1-3 util slots for kits to replace our second weapon set.

edit: engineers basically are another version of elementalist gameplay wise, just our kits differenciate a bit more in gameplay rather than actual effect is you get what im trying to say. We have less mobility in fight, less healing power but more control.

if you say getting stats from weapons applied to kits is OP, you are essentially saying engineers are OP in SPvP. Don’t get me wrong I’m not one of those engis that thinks we arent good at SPvP (im a tourny engi myself) but we aren’t OP either.

Warrior, Elementalist, and any other class who uses summoned/transformed weapons and kits also suffers from this.

Just warriors and elementalists.

Warriors don’t use their banners to attack.

Elementalist’s summoned weapons are bad and need serious work, granted; however they are not required for the class to do well and are rarely used.

Every effective engineer build requires extensive use of kits.

Lite.3819:

I’m going to explain exactly why this is not going to happen, but first I will like to tell a little about myself.

I’m a former Attunment Elementalist, viability was in my blood. I believe that any class that allows for chaining of many skills have much more potential then a few but good skills. In a GW2, it’s not about what skill you used but how you used them. Believe me when I said I understood the Elementalist. Elementalist has this viability potential by design! Unfortunately, because of that they also suffer from and effect I call “the hybrid” effect.

Elementalist, no matter how offensive or defensive you build them, will always be hybrids. This is a ball and chain that will always hold them down. What is this ball and chain?

This ball and chain is their long cool down, yet medium damage skills. I consider the weapon swap sigil for Elementalist a gift from the developers to allow the Elementalist to have more builds, because they are allowed to become less “hybrid”.

Now to Engineers!
Engineers, by having the tool kit option, is basically another version of the Elementalist from a different approach. Unlike Elementalist, Engineer are given the option to be viable. Kit Engineers are like Elementalist, but instead of Fire, Water, Wind, and Earth, you can have Fire, Fire, Water, and Wind, or Fire and Fire, or none at all. Because the Engineer can branch out in so many ways, “the hybrid” effect will completely destroy Engineers who chose not to be an “Elementalist”. How do you solve this issue?

Welcome to Kit Engineer’s ball and chain. Weapon do not scale to kits. Weapon sigil do not affect kits. This does not affect non-kit users at all. If Kit Engineers are given this these, there would be almost no reason to play an Elementalist at all! Engineers can do almost exactly what an Elementalist can do, but much better. This is not a “Warrior is a better at range then ranger” argument, you will literary able to build a Engineer that does “everything” better then an Elementalist.

If you want weapon scaling and sigil, you must be prepare for the outcome. If weapon scale and sigil works on the Engineer’s kit’s skills, cool down will be increased drastically (~200% increase in cool downs) and kit skills will be weaken. (~50% damage).

Who wants this? Kit Engineers will basically be exactly another version of an Elementalist at this point.

That, misses and sirs, is what we call balance.

Edit: I missed a point. Engineers are missing weapon swap because it’s replaced with the tool belt skill. These 4 skills is what makes an Engineer an Engineer. Although some may argue, these 4 tool belts skills are meant to compensate for weapon swap and 5 new skills. Personally, I think these 4 tool belt skills compensate very nicely. The 4 skills are usually very powerful, yet short cool down. Not using your tool belt skills is equal to not swapping your weapon as a warrior. I’m sure everyone who has understood the Engineer has already knew this, I just wanted to point it out.

Wow, really?

Ele’s don’t have regular weapon swapping because changing attunment counts as a weapon swap. 1 of the strategies a lot have posted in the ele section is that they use sigils that grant endurance (25% I believe) on weapon swap. For you to not know this and say you “understood” ele’s.

And if you didn’t get what others have olready posted.
engg is to weapon kits – ele is to conjured weapons – warriors is to banners (not sure about guardian tomes)
Equating engg kits to anything else is just wrong.

nofo.8469:

Just warriors and elementalists.
Warriors don’t use their banners to attack.

Then why do they have several threads on the warrior forums discussing how they use banners to attack, the benefits of it, and complaints about sigils not effecting it?

coglin.1496:

nofo.8469:

Just warriors and elementalists.
Warriors don’t use their banners to attack.

Then why do they have several threads on the warrior forums discussing how they use banners to attack, the benefits of it, and complaints about sigils not effecting it?

How they wish they could use their banners to attack. Which is a very valid complaint.

However how many warrior builds require them to use their banner to attack?

How many engineer builds require extensive use of kits?

Yes, sure its a problem for warriors too, but it is absolutely nothing in comparison to how it affects engineers.

I use banners to attack fairly often as a warrior. It’s similar to elementalist summoned weapons. Pick up, attack, drop. Pick up, attack, drop.

banner of defense combined with a hammer is a double whammy for aoe knockback crowd control.

Thats what I am trying to explain to him, yet he keeps saying we wish we could do it. Got to love when folks try to debate about professions they know little about.

No one wish’s they can fight with banners, because it is a FACT that we can and do. They wish they didn’t lose stats for doing it.

Fair enough, I have yet to see a warrior do it but ok, I will take your word for it. I apologise for spreading misinformation.

Saying that though, still not a core part of warrior gameplay. (otherwise I would have seen it by now)

You didn’t address any of the valid points in the post, gotta love when folks try to debate and don’t actually address the topic at hand.

nofo.8469:

You didn’t address any of the valid points in the post, gotta love when folks try to debate and don’t actually address the topic at hand.

What argument? The thread is about a question, one that is answered on many threads including 2 of the stickied threads.

What argument? The thread is about a question, one that is answered on many threads including 2 of the stickied threads.

If it was properly addressed there wouldn’t be numerous threads about it now would there?

But as for the argument, I will spell it out for you.

Warrior, Elementalist, and any other class who uses summoned/transformed weapons and kits also suffers from this.

This post indicates that warriors and eles suffer the same amount from this problem as engineers.

Just warriors and elementalists.
1) Warriors don’t use their banners to attack.
2) Elementalist’s summoned weapons are bad and need serious work, granted; however they are not required for the class to do well and are rarely used.
3)Every effective engineer build requires extensive use of kits.

Ok, I even numbered the points for you. I stand corrected on my first point however they are still not a core part of warrior gameplay and as such still aren’t really comparable.

nofo.8469:

If it was properly addressed there wouldn’t be numerous threads about it now would there?

No. Anet has addressed a great many issues. Just like they have already addressed this one. That has never even come close to deterring folks from making repeated threads in mas amounts demanding them being addressed. Either because folks feel they are so special that they can make demands because they did not like the answer, they never put two seconds into researching or looking up the answer, or any other number of reasons. The fact that we often have multiple threads on the front page of just the engineer forums alone, on the same subject should have made that point clear for you.

nofo.8469:

Ok, I even numbered the points for you. I stand corrected on my first point however they are still not a core part of warrior gameplay and as such still aren’t really comparable.

so, if a warrior wants to use banners and spends trait points to do so, they aren’t a core part of his/her gameplay? Anyone can carry a banner and use it as a weapon (giving a full bar of options just like engineer kits) or plant it on the ground for AoE boons.

The major difference is that banners are mainly planted and left there for the boons, and then picked up after battle to move to the next battle. I see warriors running across the field sometimes with a banner in hand on his way to the next skirmish. Also, they don’t last indefinitely.

Varqov.6984:

nofo.8469:

Ok, I even numbered the points for you. I stand corrected on my first point however they are still not a core part of warrior gameplay and as such still aren’t really comparable.

so, if a warrior wants to use banners and spends trait points to do so, they aren’t a core part of his/her gameplay? Anyone can carry a banner and use it as a weapon (giving a full bar of options just like engineer kits) or plant it on the ground for AoE boons.

The major difference is that banners are mainly planted and left there for the boons, and then picked up after battle to move to the next battle. I see warriors running across the field sometimes with a banner in hand on his way to the next skirmish. Also, they don’t last indefinitely.

Look, I’m not saying its not a problem for warriors.

There are plenty of things classes might want to do but can’t because they are buggy or not viable, warriors are no exception.

Warriors don’t have to spec for using banners to attack, most don’t in my experience, they have plenty of other options to use.

Engineers on the other hand are required to use kits for every effective build and often use them to attack more than our main weapon due to our guns having rather lackluster damage output.

So again, yes, it should be fixed for warriors and eles too. However banners and summoned weapons are not core parts of either of those classes that are required to be used for the vast majority of builds.

nofo.8469:

Look, I’m not saying its not a problem for warriors.

There are plenty of things classes might want to do but can’t because they are buggy or not viable, warriors are no exception.

Warriors don’t have to spec for using banners to attack, most don’t in my experience, they have plenty of other options to use.

Warriors do have banner specs, and when you read the guides that go with some of the specs, they explain how the spec is set to use the banners to initiate fights, as well as fight in attacks between locations with banners.

nofo.8469:

So again, yes, it should be fixed for warriors and eles too. However banners and summoned weapons are not core parts of either of those classes that are required to be used for the vast majority of builds.

On this fact your 100% wrong. Elementalist have nearly as many traits that favor these weapons as we do kits. They have as many of these weapons as we do kits. They also fill their utility slots. One of their elites is even a conjure weapon. They have 5 of them as utilities and elites. How can you claim that they are any more or less valuable for that class then engineers?

Why do you keep insisting on telling those of us that have these classes leveled, what they do and do not do, when you obviously do not know for yourself, and are clearly making assumptions.

coglin.1496:

nofo.8469:

Look, I’m not saying its not a problem for warriors.

There are plenty of things classes might want to do but can’t because they are buggy or not viable, warriors are no exception.

Warriors don’t have to spec for using banners to attack, most don’t in my experience, they have plenty of other options to use.

Warriors do have banner specs, and when you read the guides that go with some of the specs, they explain how the spec is set to use the banners to initiate fights, as well as fight in attacks between locations with banners.

nofo.8469:

So again, yes, it should be fixed for warriors and eles too. However banners and summoned weapons are not core parts of either of those classes that are required to be used for the vast majority of builds.

On this fact your 100% wrong. Elementalist have nearly as many traits that favor these weapons as we do kits. They have as many of these weapons as we do kits. They also fill their utility slots. One of their elites is even a conjure weapon. They have 5 of them as utilities and elites. How can you claim that they are any more or less valuable for that class then engineers?

Why do you keep insisting on telling those of us that have these classes leveled, what they do and do not do, when you obviously do not know for yourself, and are clearly making assumptions.

How many elementalists do you see with summoned weapon builds?

How many warriors do you see with banner attack builds?

How many engineers do you see with kit builds?

nofo.8469:

How many elementalists do you see with summoned weapon builds?

How many warriors do you see with banner attack builds?

How many engineers do you see with kit builds?

Elitist much. Just because their may be less of them then there are of us does not mean their opinion does not count when encountering identical problems.

And at least 2 of each that I know of, besides how I love the lightening hammer myself. The elite conjure is nice and alot of people use it. I hear them on raid call, discussing it regularly as well.

I didn’t say their opinion didn’t count.

I said its a bigger issue for engineers.

That’s all i said.

nofo.8469:

I didn’t say their opinion didn’t count.

I said its a bigger issue for engineers.

That’s all i said.

No it isn’t . You claimed warriors couldn’t even attack with banners and that they only “wished” they could.

nofo.8469:

they wish they could use their banners to attack. Which is a very valid complaint.

coglin.1496:

nofo.8469:

I didn’t say their opinion didn’t count.

I said its a bigger issue for engineers.

That’s all i said.

No it isn’t . You claimed warriors couldn’t even attack with banners and that they only “wished” they could.

Yes, and I already apologised for being wrong.

coglin.1496:

nofo.8469:

How many elementalists do you see with summoned weapon builds?

How many warriors do you see with banner attack builds?

How many engineers do you see with kit builds?

Elitist much. Just because their may be less of them then there are of us does not mean their opinion does not count when encountering identical problems.

And at least 2 of each that I know of, besides how I love the lightening hammer myself. The elite conjure is nice and alot of people use it. I hear them on raid call, discussing it regularly as well.

It’s just the truth. I have both a conjurer and a kit based engg (planning on a banner war to role play dan of war characters “FOR THE EMPEROR!!”).

Engg’s have 15 traits affecting kits. Nuff said right there.

Ele’s have only 1 trait specific to conjured weapons that increases total charges by 20. That’s it. Conjured weapons at best are redundant with the exception of Lightning Hammer 1 being an AoE blind blast finisher every 1.5 sec. That is the only unique thing you can do if you go for a conjurer build. Anything the conjures can do, someone else (even you with diff weapon sets) can do (better).

War’s get 3 banner specific trait. I have never had a banner war, but I have played with 1. Most of the time she pick up her banners was to re plant the banners, and most of the time banners weren’t picked up.