Guild Wars 2

Grenades still beats anything other classes dps output. Only in terms of pve though. Alot of dps with grenades is almost useless pvp unless u attacking a point or sieging a castle.

Might is where this damage is coming from. The one class that can beat an unmighted engineer is the warrior with the greatsword. But with might we dominate.

Some Basic Zerker stats
power1843 percison1874 crit damage138
These stats may very alot between classes but its the best I can do. i am going to assume both warrior and engineer have 25 stacks of might.

Now these stats effect any attack by 4.984926562(with 25 might). So any attack you will be multiplying it by this number.

Engineeer
Grenade basic attack: 163*3 = 489
Attack rate: 1 per second
Damage per second: 2437.629089
now you have to remember this is just the auto attack.

Warrior
Basic Attack + hundred blades: 4334.791667
Now to get this number we have to take into account the cool down. so basically this is the total damage of HB + BA *x.
x is the number of attacks it takes until the cool down is done.
Attack rate: 9.9 per second
Damage per second: 2182.688699

So as you can see it beats warrior 25 might stacks. the only problem with the engineer build is that it requires a lot of traits and sigils for this to even work. But it is do able.

What u need.
Hgh trait is required. You will also need about 100% total might duration with boon duration with traits. They stack so together aslong as they make 100%.
grenadier trait is required
You will need the superior sigil of battle basically grants 3 stacks of might on weapon swap.

So the plan is to swap the grenade kit in and out every 9 seconds. this can be done without interrupting any dps. You will then need to spam you elixirs don’t worry about the elixirs you throw since they only provide one might. all of your drunken elixirs provide 2 so use them off cool down.
This should push you up to 25. If you are finding this hard you can always use sigil of strength and allies might stacks. Along as you remain at 20 stack you should out dps any warrior.

did you mention vulnerability stacking? thats what kind of makes grenades go completely over the top in pve imo. Just such a great buff that improves damage for your entire group

Yet the Engineer have to stop after one dungeon run because he can’t move his finger anymore.

no pain no gain

Cooldown is fine but granades miss every moving target a lot of times because they are sooo slow.

This is interesting indeed. My only questions really deal with HGH. What is the amount of time that is required to chug elixirs to maintain maximum Might stacks? Is the cast time of a tossed elixir even worth attempting for a single stack of Might?

The only reason I bring these questions up is while our DPS may be higher when we are dealing damage, we aren’t actually dealing damage when we are chugging elixirs. I’m curious if that was factored in, and if it was how it those questions above would be answered. I imagine drinking Elixir B is always worth it, but the others I’m not really so sure on from first glance.

Grenades don’t really miss when you are basically in melee range. Ranged attacking with them is just an option, and the inaccuracy of them is really overrated in PvE situations.

I don’t like the idea of chugging elixirs just for HGH.

Like Ayestes said, it interrupts the flow of constant DPS. And another is that you are slowly forced into the mentality that you are using the elixirs only for might stacking. When the actual need for the elixir comes up, chances are it’s on CD because you used it to buff your power and condition damage by 70.

Choose other sources, like swapping in between kits or eating might on crit food. Chances are that your teammates have area might buffs. Let those along with the more passive items increase your might rather than interrupting DPS to chug an elixir for a trait buff.

I have both a warrior and engineer at level 80, so I have an informed opinion on this subject. For single-target dps where fighting in melee range is an option and where the warrior can successfully land hundred-blades (without getting interrupted or having the target move out of range mid-channel), a greatsword warrior out damages a grenadier engineer, assuming optimal gear/builds.

With 25 might stacks my warrior’s final swing of hundred blades hits for 25,000 to 30,000, and my auto attacks hit for about 2000 to 2500 per swing (3 swings every 2.5 seconds). The warrior also doesn’t need to interrupt the dps rotation to “chug elixirs to build might stacks” his might stacks automatically on crits (which happen 80+% of the time for each attack due to the ease of acheiving perma-fury with Signet of Rage + “For Great Justice” and +boon-duration). While Signet of Rage costs 1 second to activate every 60 seconds, “For Great Justice” is instant, and can be cast while using other abilities (so there is no cost to use it).

I would argue that it takes a lot more effort for engineers to build up a stack of 25 might than it does for greatsword warriors. The opportunity cost of using elixirs to build might stacks is too expensive: not having utility when you need it because you’re always using elixirs when their cooldowns come up for their might stacks, not to mention the .5 to 1.0 seconds you spend activating each elixir is time that you’re not dpsing.

I do agree that grenades benefit far more overall from might stacks than greatsword does, since our kits scale better with power than normal weapons do, and grenades benefit from both power and condition damage (whereas greatsword only benefits from power). However the cost to get those might stacks, unless the group is giving out a lot of Area Effect might, hurts the engineers dps, and no measure of overall grenadier dps is valid unless it takes that cost into account.

Maybe I’m just a bad engineer but I almost never have 25 might stacks. More typically I have between 5 and 10. I don’t run an HGH build because I find it too clunky to waste slots in my attack rotation to use elixirs who’s effects I don’t currently need, especially when I might need them at specific times in the next 20-30 seconds (invulnerability or condition removal is very situational, for instance). I’m not sure how much damage my grenades would do with 25 might stacks, but with 5 to 10 the damage doesn’t match the best my warrior can do.

Sure its possible that with 25 might stacks a grenadier can outdps a greatsword warrior, though I’d like to see someone provide concrete damage numbers to back up that claim, but it’s much harder for an engineer to get those stacks than it is for a warrior, so it’s not necessarily a fair comparison.

Well, I´m not hitting 25 might-stacks, either. But that´s probably because I dont use HGH but Enhanced Performande with sigil of battle and 2 runes of altruism.
without might-runes I´m usually around 15-18 stacks might.
But if there´s someone in the party who´s stacking might for the grp I easily hit the 25.

Given that I don´t use HGH it´s, in my opinion, far more interesting whether it´s mathematically worth to only nade spam or switch kits in between for a prybar or a jump shot and a blunderbuss.

And am I right, when I suggest, that you only used nades #1 to get the numbers?

Cero.5132:

Given that I don´t use HGH it´s, in my opinion, far more interesting whether it´s mathematically worth to only nade spam or switch kits in between for a prybar or a jump shot and a blunderbuss.

And am I right, when I suggest, that you only used nades #1 to get the numbers?

Switching up grenades is only good when you solo.
When in groups the vulnerability stacks lost are > the dmg increase you gain by switching. Maybe for jump shot but you shouldnt use rifle in the first place because 1 sigil.

I’ve a warrior and engy at 80, and I can say this: On one hand, yes, engineer can outdamage a HB warrior if and only if 2 things occur:

1) The mob is not against a wall. Whirlwind Attack puts out a lot of damage if they are, and gives several might stacks in the process.
2) You can’t just auto attack with engineer. Flame Blast, Acid Bomb, Blunderbuss, and Jump Shot all seriously ramp up your total damage output when juggling, in addition to the 4 damaging grenade abilities. Use them, and you’ll exceed a warrior using only HB and auto attack.

It’s also worth noting that warrior has more traits improving their damage output. More crit chance and more base damage increase from full adrenaline, more greatsword damage, and more damage while bleeding, will exceed 10% more damage with full endurance and 10% more from explosives (or 3 stacks of might on heal, which is what I prefer). This might change if Anet ever bothers to fix Scope, however. 10% crit chance while chilling will seriously close the gap trait-wise.

All i want to know is why the primary grenade attack still isnt automated like other auto attacks 1st skills. I dont care if they feel they need to tone down the damage in some way…..they dont allow me to macro and this game is causing me to have a medical condition in my joints. I should sue arenanet for not making grenades 1st skill auto attack.

RaynStargaze.6510:

Cero.5132:

Given that I don´t use HGH it´s, in my opinion, far more interesting whether it´s mathematically worth to only nade spam or switch kits in between for a prybar or a jump shot and a blunderbuss.

And am I right, when I suggest, that you only used nades #1 to get the numbers?

Switching up grenades is only good when you solo.
When in groups the vulnerability stacks lost are > the dmg increase you gain by switching. Maybe for jump shot but you shouldnt use rifle in the first place because 1 sigil.

As I see it we are currently talking about raw (mathematical) damage.
So the support through vulnerability is not reckoned in, yet.

And I wouldn´t use a set of weapons that doesnt support my playstyle only for the sake of one more sigil. I feel like capping my own utility with that.
It´s just not my playstyle. But that´s off-topic again….

Kamahl.3621:

I’ve a warrior and engy at 80, and I can say this: On one hand, yes, engineer can outdamage a HB warrior if and only if 2 things occur:

1) The mob is not against a wall. Whirlwind Attack puts out a lot of damage if they are, and gives several might stacks in the process.
2) You can’t just auto attack with engineer. Flame Blast, Acid Bomb, Blunderbuss, and Jump Shot all seriously ramp up your total damage output when juggling, in addition to the 4 damaging grenade abilities. Use them, and you’ll exceed a warrior using only HB and auto attack.

It’s also worth noting that warrior has more traits improving their damage output. More crit chance and more base damage increase from full adrenaline, more greatsword damage, and more damage while bleeding, will exceed 10% more damage with full endurance and 10% more from explosives (or 3 stacks of might on heal, which is what I prefer). This might change if Anet ever bothers to fix Scope, however. 10% crit chance while chilling will seriously close the gap trait-wise.

One problem with your point 2, blinding and poison grenades do less damage than auto attack, and the poison dot usually won’t make up for it in this sort of build. Shrap and Frost grenades do put out more damage though, so tossing those into rotation is generally a good plan.

Last note on this subject, why do we care if we can outdps warrior’s greatsword? Axe warriors already do it.

Creld.8702:

One problem with your point 2, blinding and poison grenades do less damage than auto attack, and the poison dot usually won’t make up for it in this sort of build. Shrap and Frost grenades do put out more damage though, so tossing those into rotation is generally a good plan.

Last note on this subject, why do we care if we can outdps warrior’s greatsword? Axe warriors already do it.

I didn’t say to use blind and poison, I said 4 damaging abilities. Shrapnel, Freeze, Barrage, and auto. And axe only outdamages based on auto attack versus auto attack + hundred blades (or axe/mace with 5, 4, 2, and auto attack). And this is an incredibly small difference while packing 2 sigils. Whirlwind attack fills that void hastily to bursting.

Bombs actually do considerably more damage than grenades. I believe it is the only auto-attack that has a coefficient higher than 1 (1.19).

The difference in vulnerability isn’t that great against bosses (-50% duration). We’re talking 3-4% damage difference (Bomb #2 applies vulnerability on both pulses). Just because you see 20 stacks of vulnerability on a boss doesn’t mean those are all coming from you.

Bombs also attack faster than grenades 0.89s vs 1.0s.

If you are stacking on a boss in PVE and trying to maximize DPS, you should be using bomb #1 and #2, BoB, and Rifle #3 and #5. Every attack you do, excepting Bomb #2, will have a coefficient higher than 1. Bomb #2 is used for stacking vulnerability and fire field combos.

And, by my frapsing, a GS warrior using auto attack and hundred blades has a longer rotation: 10.4 seconds. The math I’ve done shows auto-attack bomb and auto-attack gs + 100 blades having the same coefficient DPS per second (1.18 gs vs 1.19 bomb). Warrior has more %dmg scalars and more reliable access to fury though.

kandolo.2574:

If you are stacking on a boss in PVE and trying to maximize DPS, you should be using bomb #1 and #2, BoB, and Rifle #3 and #5. Every attack you do, excepting Bomb #2, will have a coefficient higher than 1. Bomb #2 is used for stacking vulnerability and fire field combos.

I’ve always been curious about this, as I debate swapping out grenades for bomb kit on bosses where melee is safe (Alpha, for example). I wouldn’t need grenadier, could spec for 10% more explosion damage and 3 might on heal, and.. anyway, I’m not sure the damage difference between BoB and bomb autos (I would never use the 2 in my current setup, given bosses burn constantly anyway due to a single guardian and incendiary ammo) and grenade 2, 4, and barrage (one more damaging skill, and barrage really brings the pain, not to mention avoiding scattering non-defiant mobs, which is.. really trolly) is that considerable! I’m often rotating to flamethrower to double tap 2, maybe drop 4, and then elixir gun to push 4 then ~ on top of the napalm, then hump over to rifle and do what has already been mentioned. Was wondering what your thoughts were on the differential? Acid Bomb and Flame Blast have very heavy power scaling.

tl;dr Is there a real difference between grenades and bombs when rotating other kits heavily?

I’d just like to chime in and say that chugging elixers for might isn’t necessarily a bad thing, esp in pve (for pvp that’s a diff matter). I use elixer heal, grenade, elixer color-purple, Elixer small. At the beginning of matches, I chug elixer heal and elixer purple, and use both throw elixers. The reason being is that since you’re grenade, you’re not usually at the front lines and you won’t get the first hit. By the time you actually need to use them (condition cleansing, healing, etc), the elixers would’ve been in CD. (20(?)s on elixer heal, 18sec on throw elixer, 24(?)sec on elixer. Plus, there’s our clutch elixer small just in case we get overwhelmed and need to run away.

Lupanic.6502:

Cooldown is fine but granades miss every moving target a lot of times because they are sooo slow.

you can get pretty good at leading a target but if he moves to much u can exactly use your greatsword. Just use you rifle it has pretty identical dmage to the longbow for ranger besides the long bow being ever so slightly better.

This is interesting indeed. My only questions really deal with HGH. What is the amount of time that is required to chug elixirs to maintain maximum Might stacks? Is the cast time of a tossed elixir even worth attempting for a single stack of Might?

The only reason I bring these questions up is while our DPS may be higher when we are dealing damage, we aren’t actually dealing damage when we are chugging elixirs. I’m curious if that was factored in, and if it was how it those questions above would be answered. I imagine drinking Elixir B is always worth it, but the others I’m not really so sure on from first glance.

Grenades don’t really miss when you are basically in melee range. Ranged attacking with them is just an option, and the inaccuracy of them is really overrated in PvE situations.

Never use the tool belt elixirs just use the utility ones. Most of might stacks really come from weapon swapping. 3 might for 40 seconds 9 second cool down.
so 3*4= 12.
half come from the sigil of battle. As long as u use a elixir now and then you can get 20 and sometimes higher if you have other sources of might. sigil of strength

Sporadicus.1028:

I don’t like the idea of chugging elixirs just for HGH.

Like Ayestes said, it interrupts the flow of constant DPS. And another is that you are slowly forced into the mentality that you are using the elixirs only for might stacking. When the actual need for the elixir comes up, chances are it’s on CD because you used it to buff your power and condition damage by 70.

Choose other sources, like swapping in between kits or eating might on crit food. Chances are that your teammates have area might buffs. Let those along with the more passive items increase your might rather than interrupting DPS to chug an elixir for a trait buff.

The main point really here is that becouse the damage of the grenades is so high to bgin with the multilpying on makes the damage more absurd.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuAXA8GRArcRdEZ2UzAydXhkLXRhM19sUXlxT2ZfUVE
This is another spread sheet. its pretty confusing but it does show the bas dps of all the auto attacks in the game. which make up most of peoples dps.

Honestly you barely even interrupt the dps. it takes around 2 seconds to cast 3 elixers every about 25 seconds. its not that bad. 2/25=0.08 so that’s an 8% reduction to dps based on casting the elixirs

Soul.9280:

I have both a warrior and engineer at level 80, so I have an informed opinion on this subject. For single-target dps where fighting in melee range is an option and where the warrior can successfully land hundred-blades (without getting interrupted or having the target move out of range mid-channel), a greatsword warrior out damages a grenadier engineer, assuming optimal gear/builds.

With 25 might stacks my warrior’s final swing of hundred blades hits for 25,000 to 30,000, and my auto attacks hit for about 2000 to 2500 per swing (3 swings every 2.5 seconds). The warrior also doesn’t need to interrupt the dps rotation to “chug elixirs to build might stacks” his might stacks automatically on crits (which happen 80+% of the time for each attack due to the ease of acheiving perma-fury with Signet of Rage + “For Great Justice” and +boon-duration). While Signet of Rage costs 1 second to activate every 60 seconds, “For Great Justice” is instant, and can be cast while using other abilities (so there is no cost to use it).

I would argue that it takes a lot more effort for engineers to build up a stack of 25 might than it does for greatsword warriors. The opportunity cost of using elixirs to build might stacks is too expensive: not having utility when you need it because you’re always using elixirs when their cooldowns come up for their might stacks, not to mention the .5 to 1.0 seconds you spend activating each elixir is time that you’re not dpsing.

I do agree that grenades benefit far more overall from might stacks than greatsword does, since our kits scale better with power than normal weapons do, and grenades benefit from both power and condition damage (whereas greatsword only benefits from power). However the cost to get those might stacks, unless the group is giving out a lot of Area Effect might, hurts the engineers dps, and no measure of overall grenadier dps is valid unless it takes that cost into account.

Maybe I’m just a bad engineer but I almost never have 25 might stacks. More typically I have between 5 and 10. I don’t run an HGH build because I find it too clunky to waste slots in my attack rotation to use elixirs who’s effects I don’t currently need, especially when I might need them at specific times in the next 20-30 seconds (invulnerability or condition removal is very situational, for instance). I’m not sure how much damage my grenades would do with 25 might stacks, but with 5 to 10 the damage doesn’t match the best my warrior can do.

Sure its possible that with 25 might stacks a grenadier can outdps a greatsword warrior, though I’d like to see someone provide concrete damage numbers to back up that claim, but it’s much harder for an engineer to get those stacks than it is for a warrior, so it’s not necessarily a fair comparison.

Again drinking the potions you need is only about seconds. Over all it makes almost no diffrence. a warrior cant mantain 25 stacks of might unless spamming hundred blades even then it only spikes at 25. Also most people dont run 100% boon duration like i do for my warrior so its even worse.

Honestly there 2 sides to this. With engineer even out of combat i can get 12 stacks form just spamming elixers, all of them.
A warrior cant do that besides its 5 from rage. sometimes in a fight you neeed to move Thats when engineer shines becouse thats your que to buff up.

Cero.5132:

Well, I´m not hitting 25 might-stacks, either. But that´s probably because I dont use HGH but Enhanced Performande with sigil of battle and 2 runes of altruism.
without might-runes I´m usually around 15-18 stacks might.
But if there´s someone in the party who´s stacking might for the grp I easily hit the 25.

Given that I don´t use HGHGH it´s, in my opinion, far more interesting whether it´s mathematically worth to only nade spam or switch kits in between for a prybar or a jump shot and a blunderbuss.

And am I right, when I suggest, that you only used nades #1 to get the numbers?

grenades have the most dps out of all our kits. you can achieve a similar result with other weapons because 25 stacks of might is so strong. the core of this build is the kit swapping for might which i over looked before.

Cero.5132:

RaynStargaze.6510:

Cero.5132:

Given that I don´t use HGH it´s, in my opinion, far more interesting whether it´s mathematically worth to only nade spam or switch kits in between for a prybar or a jump shot and a blunderbuss.

And am I right, when I suggest, that you only used nades #1 to get the numbers?

Switching up grenades is only good when you solo.
When in groups the vulnerability stacks lost are > the dmg increase you gain by switching. Maybe for jump shot but you shouldnt use rifle in the first place because 1 sigil.

As I see it we are currently talking about raw (mathematical) damage.
So the support through vulnerability is not reckoned in, yet.

And I wouldn´t use a set of weapons that doesnt support my playstyle only for the sake of one more sigil. I feel like capping my own utility with that.
It´s just not my playstyle. But that´s off-topic again….

i kinda feel the same way about the greatsword for a warrior. i mean if you zerker and not greatsowrd who wants you. I guess this thread is just pointing out that we are better or at least the same as a zerker warrior.

Kamahl.3621:

I’ve a warrior and engy at 80, and I can say this: On one hand, yes, engineer can outdamage a HB warrior if and only if 2 things occur:

1) The mob is not against a wall. Whirlwind Attack puts out a lot of damage if they are, and gives several might stacks in the process.
2) You can’t just auto attack with engineer. Flame Blast, Acid Bomb, Blunderbuss, and Jump Shot all seriously ramp up your total damage output when juggling, in addition to the 4 damaging grenade abilities. Use them, and you’ll exceed a warrior using only HB and auto attack.

It’s also worth noting that warrior has more traits improving their damage output. More crit chance and more base damage increase from full adrenaline, more greatsword damage, and more damage while bleeding, will exceed 10% more damage with full endurance and 10% more from explosives (or 3 stacks of might on heal, which is what I prefer). This might change if Anet ever bothers to fix Scope, however. 10% crit chance while chilling will seriously close the gap trait-wise.

There are so many varaibles it never going to be perfect. Over all the zerker engineer with might is better dps than a warrior zerker.
I do see zerker engineers but without might i almost never see might builds besides me.

To do dps of rotations is a nightmare because i really can only pick the highest dps rotation. i could have a base dps then have a plus or minus tagged to each combo telling you how much dps it adds or subtracts from base.

Creld.8702:

Kamahl.3621:

I’ve a warrior and engy at 80, and I can say this: On one hand, yes, engineer can outdamage a HB warrior if and only if 2 things occur:

1) The mob is not against a wall. Whirlwind Attack puts out a lot of damage if they are, and gives several might stacks in the process.
2) You can’t just auto attack with engineer. Flame Blast, Acid Bomb, Blunderbuss, and Jump Shot all seriously ramp up your total damage output when juggling, in addition to the 4 damaging grenade abilities. Use them, and you’ll exceed a warrior using only HB and auto attack.

It’s also worth noting that warrior has more traits improving their damage output. More crit chance and more base damage increase from full adrenaline, more greatsword damage, and more damage while bleeding, will exceed 10% more damage with full endurance and 10% more from explosives (or 3 stacks of might on heal, which is what I prefer). This might change if Anet ever bothers to fix Scope, however. 10% crit chance while chilling will seriously close the gap trait-wise.

One problem with your point 2, blinding and poison grenades do less damage than auto attack, and the poison dot usually won’t make up for it in this sort of build. Shrap and Frost grenades do put out more damage though, so tossing those into rotation is generally a good plan.

Last note on this subject, why do we care if we can outdps warrior’s greatsword? Axe warriors already do it.

never use blind grenade, its useless. allways use poison grenades again targets that can be poisoned. over all it does add more to dps. i didn’t add it because it wasn’t necessary.

axe is inferior because of the might. that makes all the difference in the world. there is only 1 class i know that can get the damage increase from might. rangers longbow is it.
basically is about a 30-40% damage increase.

Kamahl.3621:

Acid Bomb and Flame Blast have very heavy power scaling.

tl;dr Is there a real difference between grenades and bombs when rotating other kits heavily?

I haven’t tested Flamethrower and Elixir Gun coefficient/activation times yet. I did some googling, but I don’t trust coefficients I haven’t calculated myself.

Blunderbuss: 1.6 every 10s
Leap Shot: 0.9 + 1.8 every 20s
Bomb: 1.19 every 0.89s
BoB: 1.65 (Blast Finisher) every 20s
Acid Bomb: 0.75 (x6) (Blast Finisher) every 15s
Pry Bar: 2.0 every 15s
Grenade: 0.93 every 1s
Sharpnel Grenade: 1.62 every 5s
Freeze Grenade: 1.41 every 25s
Flame Blast 0.75 + 1.75 every 6s

So, by those numbers, if you are a pro at micromanaging cooldowns? Probably.

I’m at work right now, so I can’t test their true activation times (frapsing the ability, and measuring the frames, including recovery animation). The difference is sometimes surprising when you normalize the coefficient down to damage per second (Bomb is 1.33 per second, 4 Grenades + 1 Shrapnel is 1.07. Extend that to include Freeze Bomb (1x Freeze (1.41), 5x Shrapnel (8.1), 20x Grenade (18.6), you are looking at 1.08). Throw in Flame Blasts instead of grenades: (4x Flame Blast (10), 1x Freeze (1.41), 5x Shrapnel (8.1), 16x Grenade (14.88): 1.32. Acid Bomb will gain you around 0.3 coefficient DPS (assuming 1s activation time, which I’m fairly positive with the leap is much longer).

So, roughly, 1.62 damage per second per point of power juggling 3 kits with a perfect rotation. Probably closer to 1.45ish assuming time lost from the leap animation. Compare that to 1.33 while mindlessly chaining bombs.

I’m terrible at math. I was an art major, so take this with a grain of salt.

@Kand: I’m simply debating swapping bomb for grenade kit in that whole rotation. Grenades would be more convenient for me (I have the mental cooldowns all timed, I run CDR for the rifle namely so I can use net shot, blunderbuss, and jump shot more often), and Acid Bomb is right around 1 second activation time (it feels like the self-disable is shorter if you cancel it, but marginally). I’ve done some testing in the past few hours with bomb over grenades, and it’s throwing me a little out of whack (I’m used to doing ~4 attacks with grenades, then swapping back to flamethrower for flame blast, then back to grenades for shrapnel, etcetera, but bomb kit attacks slightly faster, so 5 attacks seems more appropriate, but it’s throwing me off!), but the extra 3 stacks of might from BoB into Napalm’s field is putting me up to 15-18, between 3-6 from might-on-heal, 6 from blasts (9 if I counted supply crate, which I won’t), and another 6 from sigil of battle. It’s.. let’s just say I’ve done a ton of min/maxing DPS-wise across all my professions, and I love my engineer for his current flexibility and damage – and this is making me consider mixing it up a little. Even if the difference is marginal, it’s still there. I’m an engineering grad, optimization is my life!

Edit: Forgot to mention that, with this change, grenadier goes out → 10% more explosion damage comes in. Maybe take shrapnel out for larger radii, but any boss I make the change for would be probably sitting still.

RaynStargaze.6510:

did you mention vulnerability stacking? thats what kind of makes grenades go completely over the top in pve imo. Just such a great buff that improves damage for your entire group

Against a boss, duration is halved. Even with +30% duration from traits, you’ll be maintaining 9 stacks with Grenades and 3 stacks with Bombs. Assuming your entire group does 2k DPS on average, that’s 600 DPS. 2000 DPS with Grenades is 2462 DPS with bombs. The “over the top” difference in this scenario is 138 DPS.

kandolo.2574:

RaynStargaze.6510:

did you mention vulnerability stacking? thats what kind of makes grenades go completely over the top in pve imo. Just such a great buff that improves damage for your entire group

Against a boss, duration is halved. Even with +30% duration from traits, you’ll be maintaining 9 stacks with Grenades and 3 stacks with Bombs. Assuming your entire group does 2k DPS on average, that’s 600 DPS. 2000 DPS with Grenades is 2462 DPS with bombs. The “over the top” difference in this scenario is 138 DPS.

You are assuming power grenades vs power bombs if i`m correct?

I`d never play a purely power focused nade build. If you go nades you want max bleed procs of crits + high crit dmg% – rampager power prec condi seems reasonable maybe with a few pieces for crit % and lots of points in our crit % tree as that tree scales better than the other ones in terms of damage.

This is especially true with might stacking which benefits BOTH condition damage and direct damage in this build

Pure Grenades already out dps pure bombs with the right spec. The vulnerability stacking is the icing on the cake.

RaynStargaze.6510:

You are assuming power grenades vs power bombs if i`m correct?

I`d never play a purely power focused nade build. If you go nades you want max bleed procs of crits + high crit dmg% – rampager power prec condi seems reasonable maybe with a few pieces for crit % and lots of points in our crit % tree as that tree scales better than the other ones in terms of damage.

Condition damage doesn’t scale very well compared to power/precision/crit damage. The difference between 30 crit damage (30 tools) and 110 crit damage (30 tools + ascended gear) is about a 25% increase in damage, assuming 45% crit rate, and that value only gets higher with more critical chance. Not to mention the raw damage you lose going from rubies to bleed runes.

Whilst you can do a lot of damage with grenades, your speed still isn’t going to match the power of the 100B. 100nades can but…. the autoattack? Nah.

They don’t do the most damage, they are inferior compared to the GS or Axe warrior no matter how you look at it, you can trait the full 9 yards for damage.

The warrior GS is more than just 100b, whirlwind easily does a large fraction of the damage as well (hits 2 time and 3 times if against a wall i think), there’s weapon swapping to Axe if you they have 15 traits in discipline is also amazingly effective.

I’m also finding several of your assumptions quite flawed, warriors can access to 8 permanent 8 stacks of might and permanent fury, vulnerability is also a factor but in all honesty you can just use “On my Mark” with the warrior and it’s pretty much the same abbet maybe 6 stacks of vulnerability.
In terms of buffs and debuffs they are pretty much the same.

if you could show us your calculations and intended traits.

Dirame.8521:

Whilst you can do a lot of damage with grenades, your speed still isn’t going to match the power of the 100B. 100nades can but…. the autoattack? Nah.

This is confusing me.
basicly over the 9.9 second it takes to do the great sword rotation you attack 19 times.
So 19/9.9 = 1.919191919 hits per second.
Attack with 3 grenades and the can be thrown every second.
3 hits per second vs 1.919191919 hits per second.
Does that answer it?

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

They don’t do the most damage, they are inferior compared to the GS or Axe warrior no matter how you look at it, you can trait the full 9 yards for damage.

The warrior GS is more than just 100b, whirlwind easily does a large fraction of the damage as well (hits 2 time and 3 times if against a wall i think), there’s weapon swapping to Axe if you they have 15 traits in discipline is also amazingly effective.

I’m also finding several of your assumptions quite flawed, warriors can access to 8 permanent 8 stacks of might and permanent fury, vulnerability is also a factor but in all honesty you can just use “On my Mark” with the warrior and it’s pretty much the same abbet maybe 6 stacks of vulnerability.
In terms of buffs and debuffs they are pretty much the same.

if you could show us your calculations and intended traits.

It hard for me to know what your talking about.
over all grenades or engineer in general are better Dps if speced for might.
Axe does not stack might so its kinda useless. fury and vulnerability not that important because they both stack it.
The man advantage with warrior is that you only need Forceful Greatsword. other things help but really the biggest increase in damage is that one trait. so you can build tanky, shout healing or anything and still have this amazing dps from that one trait.
but eng still beats it.

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

They don’t do the most damage, they are inferior compared to the GS or Axe warrior no matter how you look at it, you can trait the full 9 yards for damage.

This. But, not for the reasons you think.

Weapon-wise, both classes stack up. If you average out coefficients both warriors and engineers can sustain 1.3 – 1.5ish damage per second per point of power.

Trait wise, they both suffer from splitting Precision and Crit Damage into separate trees.

However, warriors have much easier access to substantial, consistent +%DMG and +Crit traits. Engineers also have to work a lot harder (kit juggling) to keep up.

Engineer’s have permanent +50% endurance regeneration though and more tricks up their sleeves. I feel more capable of responding to any situation as an engineer than I do on my Mesmer and Warrior. I also do more than speed run CoF. (I run a guild focused on Dungeon Master. We run all dungeon paths regularly.)