Guild Wars 2

I have been looking for a guild that is a semi-speed run guild but will allow engis.. I don’t want a casual guild that doesn’t know what they are doing. I want a guild that can teach me all the dungeons.
I have been in SPvP since release and am experienced in almost all the easy mode dungeons like CoF and AC and CoE.. but I haven’t done much of the others.. I posted in almost every dungeon map and said I wanted a guild. People would even laugh and say engis don’t do dmg. Well I know what my class can do and it’s a little frustrating when people won’t even consider it because it’s not part of the “elitist” groups. An Engi is superior in almost every aspect it seems. Their dps is pretty freaking great.. considering my bombs hit 7-8k+ and the auto attack is really fast. They can heal, they can stealth, they can pull, they can stack might, I just don’t get why people don’t want us in teams. Sorry I had to vent.. I’m tired of getting kicked as soon as I join a pug(I Wouldn’t join a pug btw if I had a guild that did fractals/dungeons with an engi)

lol whoever ur talking to must be very ignorant. I don’t necessarily harcore it up in dungeons but i always do speed runs with my engi and no one tells me to swap characters. The only time i see people tell others to swap characters is if they are low levels. Don’t join a guild u know are all elitists if you’re not one yourself is all i can tell you.

Let’s all just have a sit down and talk about the state of the engineer in dungeons, before we pick sides, before we violently react, and just talk.

I have 2.5k hours on my engineer, 25k kills in wvw mostly with her, and I can tell you definitively, engineers are not terrible in dungeons, but they are not in the top 4 either.

I run my Phalanx Warrior, my DPS Guard, or my s/d Ele in dungeons, because there is always, ALWAYS someone looking for them in LFG, and they bring quite a bit to the entire party. I pug quite a bit, too, and I can tell you, there is nothing as frustrating as just casually running and killing along side a corruption-stacked, flamethrower engineer in the dungeon, that doesn’t even lay down a fire field for might stacking. Because I know what numbers he/she is getting, and I know what numbers I’m getting.

But it’s not a problem with the game, or the class, and it’s especially NOT a problem with the player. It’s an issue with communication and skill ceiling.

It’s been said dozens or hundreds of times already, but without a clear-cut trinity, people don’t understand what they should be doing in dungeons, and just “wing it,” which is fine when you are starting out, but when you dig into the game mechanics, you realize there are some very clear cut winners and losers in PvE.

I am not an elitist, or at least, I try not to be, I never offer advice, or give people a hard time, despite my frustration (because it’s my problem, not theirs). I was there once, not knowing what to do, what to use, how to build, how to run, how to dodge. And figuring out the synergy of a build, a set of skills and play style is something everyone has to do on their own largely, they have to want to know, to learn, to be willing to separate the not-very-nice people saying not-very-nice things from the actual advice, which is generally at least good in the general sense.

The general consensus is that Engineers aren’t high damage, and while that is not exactly true, as Gooz says above, they don’t compare to the group-might-and-fury crowd with war banners, permanent reflects, and permanent protection. Which is what I get when I run in a Ele, Guard, and Warrior party. I do pug with “all welcome” parties, and that’s fun, I meet nice people, help them out with positioning, or if they ask for specific advice, I am happy to guide new people, as long as everyone is friendly.

Engies CAN provide a lot of things, there are builds that can spec for most of what I have mentioned, but not easily, and the trade-offs are deep and wide across the board. I can camp greatsword on my Warrior and provide 18+ stacks of might to the entire party WITH fury, WITH banners, WITH trait-based DPS increases, and all while just standing their popping buttons as they come off cool down.

Not only is it an easy spec, it’s mostly passive and compared to what I have to do for 12+ might on an engineer, it’s a cakewalk. Not to mention over half of all blast finishers are knockbacks, negating the melee stack, which say what you will, makes most dungeon encounters neophyte-friendly.

The frustration I see from the engie community comes from this passive inequity. A profession with a high skill ceiling (and high skill floor, let’s be honest) should have a higher pay-off than a profession with a low skill ceiling. And getting kicked from dungeons, simply because the warriors in the party don’t consider Engineers to have “high damage” is Infuriating in the extreme, simply because the engies do more to get less, and are punished for it.

I am part of the problem—unlike my amazing guildmate who runs his engineer in dungeons, stacks might for the party, provide group buffs, and back up heals in high-level fractals—I have caved to the pressure of the community and run these other professions which are also fun, thus not showing pugs a (semi) competent engineer holding their own and being productive in the group. Why? Because I see the difference between the classes, and it goes beyond being personally capable of soloing the dungeon, or at least dodging at the right time. When one member of the party can provide 18+ stacks of might and fury, or do a guaranteed 90% of the DPS with a Fiery Greatsword, or a wall of reflection at the right time, they aren’t just being a great pug, they are in part, carrying every member of the party that doesn’t have these skills, traits, and mechanics.

And it’s time for everyone to recognize that, so we can address the obvious imbalance.

OP, you are just running into the wrong people, or you simply need to educate them. I cannot tell you how many players

I have met that had no idea we have:

• Water fields.

• AoE condition cleanse

• Multiple blast finisher

• The ability to stack stealth with smoke field plus blast finishers

• The damage output that we do. Particular AoE damage.

• AoE stability.

• Our ability to stack so much might.

• The ability to reflect projectiles.

And the list goes on and on. Sometimes you just have to educate a guild or group that is unfamiliar with the profession.

I don’t think you need to state your profession when you say you’re looking for a guild. Just describe the kind of guild you’re looking for as you did in the OP and see who’s interested.

If necessary, bring a dungeon meta build your first run with the guild, and wait until the second run to bring your engineer. Use your tomes of knowledge from PvP to create a second level 80 character, slap an easy build on him, and go to work. Of course gear will set you back a chunk of gold in PvPer’s terms, but from what I understand you’ll gain it all back in a few runs. You won’t have to spend any time learning your new build because…well, you know.

I have a level 80 ele,warrior,thief,mesmer and of course my engi. All of my characters are in full exotic zerker with the “meta” builds. I have the option of switching.. I just refuse to because I’m tired of only running 4 classes because others aren’t exactly educated. Also there are people that don’t understand why groups use warriors,mesmers,ele,thieves,guards…they just go with the flow and if those people say that engis suck then they will go along with it without even playing engi or understanding the class because it’s not easy mode hit 2 GG.

twhite.9310:

I have a level 80 ele,warrior,thief,mesmer and of course my engi. All of my characters are in full exotic zerker with the “meta” builds. I have the option of switching.. I just refuse to because I’m tired of only running 4 classes because others aren’t exactly educated. Also there are people that don’t understand why groups use warriors,mesmers,ele,thieves,guards…they just go with the flow and if those people say that engis suck then they will go along with it without even playing engi or understanding the class because it’s not easy mode hit 2 GG.

This is certainly true as well, but the heavy classes certainly tend to be a bit more noob-proof.

lunyboy.8672:

twhite.9310:

I have a level 80 ele,warrior,thief,mesmer and of course my engi. All of my characters are in full exotic zerker with the “meta” builds. I have the option of switching.. I just refuse to because I’m tired of only running 4 classes because others aren’t exactly educated. Also there are people that don’t understand why groups use warriors,mesmers,ele,thieves,guards…they just go with the flow and if those people say that engis suck then they will go along with it without even playing engi or understanding the class because it’s not easy mode hit 2 GG.

This is certainly true as well, but the heavy classes certainly tend to be a bit more noob-proof.

This is the main problem…it’s harder to find a bad warrior simply because it’s the easiest profession ever seen and it requires to be a truly dreadful player not to manage to play it well. And this gives life to the legend that warrior is the best profession, that the dream-perfect-team should be like 5 warriors…which is completely silly, if we consider that the best team is considered to be max 1 warrior-2 eles-1 ranger-1 guard or mes according to the place. Plus, another factor…a warrior with a bad build is often less noticeable than an engi with bad build, be it because the warrior “hides in the crowd” while they keep a closer eye on the “intruder” (engi)
But as it was mentioned already, true Engi has a lot of great skills, can provide a lot to a team…but, there is always another profession that can do it easier and better. From might spamming to support, we can’t hide that War/Ele/Guard do it more easily and better than Engis…which is to blame on the imbalace that exists among the professions and in every side of the game, not just dungeons.

Well.. so far at every dungeon run or fractals or whatever i really never got kitten like this.. and i run a build that does moderate damage, clearly not even close to what engis can push out. I just felt to invest into survival (regens, heals, revive, condi removal buffs) can get a group out of a lot more kitten then straight up DPSing. In fact i recently did a test with a guildie of mine (who plays a mesmer..dont ask me for any builds, not really familiar enough with that class to go into detail), we basically went into the crucible of eternity and did the story without any other party members. He did the DPS, i kept him alive and guess what.. we pulled through the entire dungeon with 1 death for the both of us (at the golem command room… got a bit too crowded there, needed to cheat with fire ele powder lol). Its prolly nothing to brag about but still, it showed me that beeing epic dps machine is equally usefull to walking first aid kit that can hit creatures into the face if needed. I would say as much as big white numbers are nice.. to be supportive and spam green numbers and combo fields rather then white ones brought me far in the game. Well.. sure i will prolly never win a 1 vs 1 in pvp with my engi.. but then again i dont care about that.. for this i got other chars.

Sure.. maybe not everbody (if not all other ppl) will agree with this or see the value of it.. but my motto is: “You cant fight if you are dead” lol

lunyboy.8672:

Let’s all just have a sit down and talk about the state of the engineer in dungeons, before we pick sides, before we violently react, and just talk.

I have 2.5k hours on my engineer, 25k kills in wvw mostly with her, and I can tell you definitively, engineers are not terrible in dungeons, but they are not in the top 4 either.

I run my Phalanx Warrior, my DPS Guard, or my s/d Ele in dungeons, because there is always, ALWAYS someone looking for them in LFG, and they bring quite a bit to the entire party. I pug quite a bit, too, and I can tell you, there is nothing as frustrating as just casually running and killing along side a corruption-stacked, flamethrower engineer in the dungeon, that doesn’t even lay down a fire field for might stacking. Because I know what numbers he/she is getting, and I know what numbers I’m getting.

But it’s not a problem with the game, or the class, and it’s especially NOT a problem with the player. It’s an issue with communication and skill ceiling.

It’s been said dozens or hundreds of times already, but without a clear-cut trinity, people don’t understand what they should be doing in dungeons, and just “wing it,” which is fine when you are starting out, but when you dig into the game mechanics, you realize there are some very clear cut winners and losers in PvE.

I am not an elitist, or at least, I try not to be, I never offer advice, or give people a hard time, despite my frustration (because it’s my problem, not theirs). I was there once, not knowing what to do, what to use, how to build, how to run, how to dodge. And figuring out the synergy of a build, a set of skills and play style is something everyone has to do on their own largely, they have to want to know, to learn, to be willing to separate the not-very-nice people saying not-very-nice things from the actual advice, which is generally at least good in the general sense.

The general consensus is that Engineers aren’t high damage, and while that is not exactly true, as Gooz says above, they don’t compare to the group-might-and-fury crowd with war banners, permanent reflects, and permanent protection. Which is what I get when I run in a Ele, Guard, and Warrior party. I do pug with “all welcome” parties, and that’s fun, I meet nice people, help them out with positioning, or if they ask for specific advice, I am happy to guide new people, as long as everyone is friendly.

Engies CAN provide a lot of things, there are builds that can spec for most of what I have mentioned, but not easily, and the trade-offs are deep and wide across the board. I can camp greatsword on my Warrior and provide 18+ stacks of might to the entire party WITH fury, WITH banners, WITH trait-based DPS increases, and all while just standing their popping buttons as they come off cool down.

Not only is it an easy spec, it’s mostly passive and compared to what I have to do for 12+ might on an engineer, it’s a cakewalk. Not to mention over half of all blast finishers are knockbacks, negating the melee stack, which say what you will, makes most dungeon encounters neophyte-friendly.

The frustration I see from the engie community comes from this passive inequity. A profession with a high skill ceiling (and high skill floor, let’s be honest) should have a higher pay-off than a profession with a low skill ceiling. And getting kicked from dungeons, simply because the warriors in the party don’t consider Engineers to have “high damage” is Infuriating in the extreme, simply because the engies do more to get less, and are punished for it.

I am part of the problem—unlike my amazing guildmate who runs his engineer in dungeons, stacks might for the party, provide group buffs, and back up heals in high-level fractals—I have caved to the pressure of the community and run these other professions which are also fun, thus not showing pugs a (semi) competent engineer holding their own and being productive in the group. Why? Because I see the difference between the classes, and it goes beyond being personally capable of soloing the dungeon, or at least dodging at the right time. When one member of the party can provide 18+ stacks of might and fury, or do a guaranteed 90% of the DPS with a Fiery Greatsword, or a wall of reflection at the right time, they aren’t just being a great pug, they are in part, carrying every member of the party that doesn’t have these skills, traits, and mechanics.

And it’s time for everyone to recognize that, so we can address the obvious imbalance.

amen

I absolutely love the engineer and to thing that you can heal up your intire party with minimal investment into healing power is AMAZING!
The number of blast finishers, fields projectiles everything is so freaking awesome!

I main elementalist with 1500 hours on ’m but I feel like the engineer lets you:
1. choose which atunement to bring in the form of kits.
2. the kits are on way lower cooldowns then the atunements allowing for more freedom and a higher skill-ceiling.
3. ya can burst 22k direct damage easy, ya can do viable condition builds at 1500 range, ya can do power builds at 1500 range etc.

There’s just so much stuff that ya can do as an engineer and I’m nowhere near the meta yet :p. I run a bomb-elixer gun set-up. The Healing Turret is the most fun healing skill in the game too. But I’m still trying to figure out how to make the bombs hit for the 7-8k that was reported here. I was already happy with the 2k dmg/sec + the several thousand healing burst and healing sustain party-wide. More than once did I see my party’s health going down but I don’t think anybody got downed throughout our intire CoF run.

Engineers are certainly not bad in dungeons. They can do quite a lot: vuln stacking, might stacking, stealth, healing to top up party’s health for scholar bonus, condition cleansing, AoE blinds… the list goes on. But their damage gets beaten by ele/thief, stealth stacking gets beaten by thief, and reflections get beaten by guard/mes. If a particular path needs stealth skips, a thief is taken. If reflections are needed, a guard is taken. Neither are needed? Bring another ele then, for faster kill times.

Engineers are still amazing in dungeons once your bases are covered, though. A skilled engineer won’t necessarily make your run faster, but it will certainly be smoother. That speed is the problem though— the hardcore dungeon community is all about speed. We all like to pretend we don’t make mistakes, and won’t need the extra health padding an engineer would bring. After all, we’ve done all these paths 50+ times, right? So we’ll sacrifice that for the faster kills an ele/thief would bring.

You want to make Engineers wanted in dungeons?

• Remove the RNG from Toss Elixir U, and leave only wall of reflection. Our only other reliably reflects involve completely respecing prior to a fight, and drops our dps significantly. Turret reflects might be useable when we get build templates, but they certainly aren’t now, and won’t be optimal then.
• Alter BoB and other blast finishers of ours so that they don’t cause revealed if they hit something when blasting a smoke field. This is one of the biggest complaints about our stealth stacking— we can’t stealth anywhere like a thief/mesmer can. Maybe once this is changed people will realize that an engineer’s 12+5 seconds of stealth is more than enough for pretty much every skip out there.

With these 2 changes, engineers would be able to reliably fill both stealth and reflection roles, and would see use in both speed runs and record runs.

TL;DR: ANet please

lunyboy.8672:

Stuff

Uh, engineer does just fine in all comps, but especially pugs. They are probably the second-best support class and the best self-sustaining class, at the same time. Phalanx warrior is the only class who has them beat in raw DPS support (since it’s hard to beat 25 stacks of might + banners, which scales like crazy on the average pug who has probably very low power stat and might-stacking of his own) but even with banners, fury, FGJ, Empower Allies, and the might from blasting a fire field, a non-Phalanx Warrior is barely competitive with the 10-15 sustained might stacks a rifle/grenades engie can output along with giving 25 stacks of vuln on non-Defiant mobs, and in terms of solo sustained DPS engineer is the highest in the game (even higher than staff ele, who is lacking in vuln).

In a loosely organized comp (i.e. everyone knows what they are doing and runs meta builds but they aren’t actively picking and choosing everyone’s builds and roles for the absolutely minmaxed speedrun time) the engineer provides might, vuln, and stealth and has super high DPS and burst, so they are covering multiple bases at once so your party is guaranteed to have strong coverage in all fields. Again, this results in an overall DPS gain, and yes, it is a boost over taking another ele.

In a minmaxed record-setting run, engies haven’t been explored that much but they are looking pretty strong. Being able to cap and sustain vuln even on bosses (engineer stacks + incidental vuln from allies) is a big buff to overall DPS and the engie’s stealth allows him to replace the thief as a class with better personal DPS. Some of the guys from rT were actually “debating” this with me and their counterargument was basically “we tried engies and it went terrible.” Terrible in this case being basically doing the absolutely worst run they could plausibly do without making it look intentional (multiple wipes/permadowns, screwing up on basically every pull, stopping to kill random mobs, not even using swiftness or stealth while running) and they still managed to end with less than 18 minutes for Arah P2 including pre-dungeon stuff and load screens. Go do that with one of your “meta” warrior/guard/ele dungeon guilds and tell me how long it takes them by comparison.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

lunyboy.8672:

Stuff

words

Dude, in your OWN DPS calculations, you put Engineer near the bottom, if you want to have a real conversation about the class, play it in high level speed runs and in 40s+ fracts exclusively for a few months, get a real feel for the class.

Then re-read my post. The synergy present in certain other professions does not exist in the Engineer in any build. Yes, they are good for low to mid-level Pvp (this is largely because of good access to conditions+lots of tanky traits). Yes, they can be reasonable for wvw roaming, and some use in a zerg (although not as much as GWEN).

But they are mediocre in dungeons, and the very high skill floor does nothing to improve their reputation.

Yeah, I don’t even try to get into groups tagged for speedruns because I’m certain I’d be kicked as soon as my engineer symbol showed up. I have run with a lot of pugs though, and generally they’re very happy with the engineer’s ability to throw down combo fields and keep them in good fighting shape. I don’t think that engineers are BAD by any stretch of the imagination, but in generally I’d have to agree that there is considerably more struggle for less effectiveness. That said, engineers are a lot of fun to play, and a lot more engaging than the seemingly mindless play style of, say, a warrior or guardian. If you’re bored, try an engineer — you’ll be earning your keep through broken keyboards and mice.

Edit: Side note — engineer is the only profession I’ve been able to successfully solo an elite risen noble on.

lunyboy.8672:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

lunyboy.8672:

Stuff

words

Dude, in your OWN DPS calculations, you put Engineer near the bottom, if you want to have a real conversation about the class, play it in high level speed runs and in 40s+ fracts exclusively for a few months, get a real feel for the class.

Then re-read my post. The synergy present in certain other professions does not exist in the Engineer in any build. Yes, they are good for low to mid-level Pvp (this is largely because of good access to conditions+lots of tanky traits). Yes, they can be reasonable for wvw roaming, and some use in a zerg (although not as much as GWEN).

But they are mediocre in dungeons, and the very high skill floor does nothing to improve their reputation.

Yes, my OUTDATED calculations which did not factor in the buff to Ascended kits, dual sigils on rifles, and used old rules on Ferocity and damage scaling because I made it pre-patch. Go take a look at my new list and see how high engies are on that, being the class that got the most substantive buffs in the April patch and being the least hurt by Ferocity change made a big difference.

Moreover, the Strength runes and sigil give them downright amazing buffing capability in solo/pugs, Engie benefits the most out of any class from Strength sigil.

If you’re honestly not getting any DPS out of engie you’re probably just playing the class wrong, that’s all I can really say.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

If you’re honestly not getting any DPS out of engie you’re probably just playing the class wrong, that’s all I can really say.

No, I dungeon with my Phalanx Warrior because it’s mostly pug-proof.

I get plenty of DPS out of my engineer, but it can’t bring game-breaking mechanics to every fight like some other classes can.

But sure, I must be doing something wrong because I can’t keep up 25 stacks of might on the whole party with my engineer, or permanent projectile management, or FGS a boss down 90% in 5 seconds.

Perhaps you should re-check your math.

25 stacks of vuln and 15 stacks of might at all times plus the highest self-buffed DPS in the game isn’t a gamebreaking mechanic?

15 personal might stacks, sure, if you built specifically for that. But not party-wide. And for 25 stacks of vulnerability, you will need to run the condi food, and that doesn’t allow you to run damage food, and trait into it, not in the boon trait line. Unless you have 2 engineers in party, which I have done, and 25 stacks is easy to maintain.

But that’s not game-breaking, not in the party-wide 25 stacks of might, banners, FGS rush, etc. kind of way. Heck, a properly specced party WITHOUT engineers can hit 25 stacks of vulnerability pretty easy running Skale venom and certain traits and skills.

It’s good that someone is paying attention to the advantages of having an engineer in a party, they are a great profession, but they suffer from having too much of everything, and not enough of any one thing in a specific build to make them really worth bringing OVER an Ele, a Warrior, or a Guard, and depending on the situation, a Thief or a Mesmer.

First, it’s 15 stacks party-wide, the engie can get 25 on himself pretty easily.

Second, what good is a guard if you don’t need reflects? They overlap heavily with mesmers, their big sell is having Aegis and Protection which helps in some harder-hitting content like Dredge Fractal, but that hardly makes them mandatory to every party. Similarly, you’re not going to be able to Fiery Rush every single encounter and ele DPS suffers without it and without allies to buff them up. They get good might and fury but lack vuln which is very important.

And hey look who gives vuln and lots of it.

lunyboy.8672:

15 personal might stacks, sure, if you built specifically for that. But not party-wide. And for 25 stacks of vulnerability, you will need to run the condi food, and that doesn’t allow you to run damage food, and trait into it, not in the boon trait line. Unless you have 2 engineers in party, which I have done, and 25 stacks is easy to maintain.

But that’s not game-breaking, not in the party-wide 25 stacks of might, banners, FGS rush, etc. kind of way. Heck, a properly specced party WITHOUT engineers can hit 25 stacks of vulnerability pretty easy running Skale venom and certain traits and skills.

It’s good that someone is paying attention to the advantages of having an engineer in a party, they are a great profession, but they suffer from having too much of everything, and not enough of any one thing in a specific build to make them really worth bringing OVER an Ele, a Warrior, or a Guard, and depending on the situation, a Thief or a Mesmer.

tbh this what I love about this proffesion,
“We need stealth but we got no theif….”
Blasts smoke field

“We could use some might…”
gives 12 might to everyone

“omg im dying pls send help”
light fields and heals

Healing turret/Bombkit/EG/* with pistol/shield

6->f1 1 blast.
f2-> 2 blast
7->4 3 blast
~-> 44 4 blast.

if in asterick you run elixer S you get 5 more stealth, another stun break and i-frames.

Are you the best at being “omg carry noobs” no,
Are you the best at speed runs? no.
Can you do the middle ground the best? kitten yeah.

Everytime I play engie in a dungeon run, I feel amazingly useful.

Hell, with traits being reset whenever now, you can just go “what do we need for this fight?” and offer it.

I’d say we carry nubs quite well, and do quite well in most of them:

1) Casual pugs, i.e. “I hope these four random guys can dodge the first couple of Alpha spikes before wiping”: Engie provides a massive boost in vuln and might since no one else will be providing those. You’ll be going from 0 might and 2-3 vuln to 15 might and 25 vuln, party-wide.

2) Elitist pugs, i.e. “zerk heavies only, ping gear”: Most are dumb and won’t let an engie join but an engie would be a massive DPS buff. A team of 3 warriors, 1 guardian, and 1 mesmer won’t cap might or vuln (they do at least have fury covered) and their DPS is pretty subpar since the only class capable of dealing high-end DPS in that comp (the mesmer) is also pulling the least might stacks since he needs to Signet of Inspiration to cover the lack of might.

3) The “competent guild” speedrun, i.e. “yo mike we’re doing arah, bring a good class”: You probably have might and fury covered but vuln is likely lacking. The engie usually gives “good enough” stealth for most content and has better DPS than a thief, and covers any gaps that the group has otherwise (i.e. not enough might, need more blinds, etc.).

4) The “record setting” run, i.e. “guys i think we can shave 10 seconds off this run if we bring a thief to speed through this one skip and open the waypoint while the rest of us kill the boss”: This is what the debate about “speedclears” is about, NOT the above. The complaints are highly specific like “Smoke Bomb doesn’t recharge fast enough so we have to wait 5 seconds for it at this point” or “this one boss is immune to conditions so we lose more time than we save by vuln stacking”. They are highly context specific and ignore the fact that engies ARE good in most other contexts, we just don’t discuss them because they aren’t really worth discussing. No one ever tries to set a record for AC because that’s honestly so easy that really any comp can do it in a time very close to whatever the record actually is. Even if an engie does speed it up (and it probably would) and set a new record for it no one would really care.

One does not simply guang.

Then post a vid of a single engineer keeping 12-15 might up on himself and others (in range but not engaged in the fight) while capping vulnerability solo.

That would just be a vid of an engi that drops fire bomb, then blasts BoB, Healing Turret, Magnetic Shield, Rifle Turret, then switches to grenades and spams them against an enemy.

Oh might is the FotM buff? What was it 6 months ago? Oh right, vulnerability. 6 months before that it was retaliation. Before that, it was straight dps. Just stop. This is getting to be B.S. It doesn’t matter if you can stack 25 of x or 15 of y. What matters is taking the bad guys down and keeping the group up. Which Engineers can do both of with ease.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

That would just be a vid of an engi that drops fire bomb, then blasts BoB, Healing Turret, Magnetic Shield, Rifle Turret, then switches to grenades and spams them against an enemy.

And once those might stacks go down, they have to switch back and do it again, not keeping up DPS, not keeping 25 stacks of vulnerability, and possible knocking the Mobs out of the stack with not 1 but 2 blowout skills.

Can it be done? In very specific circumstances, yes. Is it as easy as camping GS on a Phalanx Warrior with higher health, higher base armor, banners, and traits all faceroll easy?

Of course not.

PS. You have to drop B.o.b., THEN firebomb about a half a second later with the healing turret and the rifle turret already placed, since firebomb doesn’t last that long. Use thumper turret for a second blast for 15 stacks, but you can’t keep them up, even with 30 in vitality (not even close to max dps meta) boon duration food, and the strength runes.

You guys keep arguing for the place of engineers in high-dps parties, and I agree, they are certainly viable, but they don’t pay off like some of the other classes do for doing so much more work, and the skill floor for everything you are talking about is significantly higher than the classes you see asked for in LFGs consistently.

OP asked if people were fed up, and I certainly am.

The proper Engineer DPS rotation isn’t any harder than the proper rotation for any other class, people just think it is because they’re comparing perfect engineer play to non-perfect play on other classes. For example:

Perfect engineer: Uses rifle 3 and 5 on cooldown, blasts might on cooldown, throws grenades accurately
Easy engineer: Throws grenades a lot, doesn’t use other skills.

Perfect warrior: Hits a full HB on cooldown, connects with all hits on WWA (on cooldown) regardless of size and positioning of mob (both of which require good spacing at best and may be impossible at worst).
Easy warrior: Interrupts HB, either doesn’t use WWA or uses it inappropriately. Most of time is spent auto-attacking as a result.

Perfect ranger: Uses sword for DPS, uses sword skills to attack while dodging, manages pet positioning to prevent pet death.
Easy ranger: Uses any weapon other than sword, ignores pet health.

The “easy” engineer in any of those cases is as easy to play as any of the other “easy” stuff, and a “perfect” engie isn’t any harder. It’s a total fallacy to go “engie is harder than other classes” because you can make engie as easy or as hard as you want to, same as any other class.

Every one of those except for magnetic shield does damage… BTW you can drop fire bomb and then BoB and still get the blast.

@lunyboy.8672, very well said.

Very well put. Nothing is set in stone, while the current PvE meta is certainly leaning towards those other classes, there’s nothing to say that a feature patch further down the road won’t make us equally viable. It would be nice if Guild Wars 2 can one day hit a perfect state of balance where any class can just hop in a dungeon and see that “oh I’m paired with class _, and they are all running _? Well I better use _ .” Without having to re-log into a different character, just swap some trinkets, swap some traits and you’re good to go and you have a nice copacetic dungeon party where everyone can cover a role without having to be completely pigeon holed into a specific class.

Engineer does just fine in all PvE content, the problem isn’t with them being a bad class, it’s with people being bad at playing them. Short of a lot of QoL fixes making the bads less bad (being able to see/use rifle cooldowns while in a kit, grenade auto-casting, etc.) the engineer situation isn’t going to change a ton.

It’s the same situation as why rangers have been demonstrated to be really good for speedruns but no one wants to take them still. Even the hardcore speedrunners don’t have any good ranger players, or any good engineer players for that matter.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Engineer does just fine in all PvE content, the problem isn’t with them being a bad class, it’s with people being bad at playing them. Short of a lot of QoL fixes making the bads less bad (being able to see/use rifle cooldowns while in a kit, grenade auto-casting, etc.) the engineer situation isn’t going to change a ton.

It’s the same situation as why rangers have been demonstrated to be really good for speedruns but no one wants to take them still. Even the hardcore speedrunners don’t have any good ranger players, or any good engineer players for that matter.

Do you think a third-party overlay app that keeps track of keybinds that you set and display calculated weapon cooldowns for you while you’re in a kit would be against the rules/cheating? I know there’s plenty of overlays for things like WvW updates and boss timers and those seem to be OK.

You’d probably have to pull data from the game itself since I don’t see how the overlay would be able to distinguish Rifle 3 from Grenade 3 otherwise. And Anet probably wouldn’t be too happy with that since it’d give a direct gameplay advantage.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

You’d probably have to pull data from the game itself since I don’t see how the overlay would be able to distinguish Rifle 3 from Grenade 3 otherwise. And Anet probably wouldn’t be too happy with that since it’d give a direct gameplay advantage.

It wouldn’t be completely automatic. You tell it what weapons you’re using and all it’s listening for is keys 1-5 or whatever you have it set to and it fires off a countdown according to the weapon you selected. It wouldn’t interact with the games API at all.

That’d only work if you didn’t swap weapons since otherwise it’s going to trigger the timer every time you press the 3 or 5 keys no matter what skill that actually is. It’d have to look for the weapon swap followed by 3 or 5 and there’s a lot of potential for it to break if you did it that way.

twhite.9310:

People would even laugh and say engis don’t do dmg. Well I know what my class can do and it’s a little frustrating when people won’t even consider it because it’s not part of the “elitist” groups. An Engi is superior in almost every aspect it seems. Their dps is pretty freaking great.. considering my bombs hit 7-8k+ and the auto attack is really fast. They can heal, they can stealth, they can pull, they can stack might, I just don’t get why people don’t want us in teams. Sorry I had to vent.. I’m tired of getting kicked as soon as I join a pug(I Wouldn’t join a pug btw if I had a guild that did fractals/dungeons with an engi)

It’s certainly not fair to claim that engineers do no damage, but have a little humility. Engineers dish out good DPS, but they’re nothing compared to an elementalist with the FGS. Engineers may stack might decently enough, but they don’t do it as well as an elementalist does either. And with Persisting Flames, you get over 1 minute of fury as a byproduct.

Engineers can stealth, but if you think you’re as good as a thief at this, you are sorely mistaken. There is just nothing in this game that competes with Shadow Refuge. A thief’s ability to stealth groups through half a dungeon are why they are commonly taken—and it often requires the use of Smoke Screen and Shadow Refuge to do it. Engineers are pretty good for short distance skips, but for stuff like TA you want a thief, not an engineer.

I love my engineer, and it was the first class I reached 80 with, but I don’t really much use it in dungeons anymore. Fractals are a different story, of course, but for speed-clearing dungeons, you’re better off with other classes.

lunyboy and phineas +1

pros who understand the math and mechanics of high-level play, correctly raising the need for some minor pve tweaks to make engi skills as useful as war/ele dps in dungeon runs. argue all you want but the fact is on their side: for raw speed and experienced pugs, engis are declined consistently in favor of warriors and eles, even guards. whether it happens for good or bad reasons it’s just how it is, so why? they have real answers to that question, they tell you how the game mechanics are at the root of the problem. to be frank everyone disagreeing with them sounds arbitrary.

hopefully new content will make the whole debate a moot point, since running dungeons over and over can’t be fun… the problem isn’t so much with engineer stats as it is with dungeon design and the importance of existing dungeons to profit/loot. engis have other areas to shine (wvw/pvp) but the necessary pay-off from dungeons makes speed and ease into an issue

Phineas Poe.3018:

twhite.9310:

People would even laugh and say engis don’t do dmg. Well I know what my class can do and it’s a little frustrating when people won’t even consider it because it’s not part of the “elitist” groups. An Engi is superior in almost every aspect it seems. Their dps is pretty freaking great.. considering my bombs hit 7-8k+ and the auto attack is really fast. They can heal, they can stealth, they can pull, they can stack might, I just don’t get why people don’t want us in teams. Sorry I had to vent.. I’m tired of getting kicked as soon as I join a pug(I Wouldn’t join a pug btw if I had a guild that did fractals/dungeons with an engi)

It’s certainly not fair to claim that engineers do no damage, but have a little humility. Engineers dish out good DPS, but they’re nothing compared to an elementalist with the FGS. Engineers may stack might decently enough, but they don’t do it as well as an elementalist does either. And with Persisting Flames, you get over 1 minute of fury as a byproduct.

Engineers can stealth, but if you think you’re as good as a thief at this, you are sorely mistaken. There is just nothing in this game that competes with Shadow Refuge. A thief’s ability to stealth groups through half a dungeon are why they are commonly taken—and it often requires the use of Smoke Screen and Shadow Refuge to do it. Engineers are pretty good for short distance skips, but for stuff like TA you want a thief, not an engineer.

I love my engineer, and it was the first class I reached 80 with, but I don’t really much use it in dungeons anymore. Fractals are a different story, of course, but for speed-clearing dungeons, you’re better off with other classes.

Engineers are the second-highest DPS in the game if you don’t count mesmers, and everyone seems to think summoning phantasms and autoattacking is really hard so… Also keep in mind that while ele has good DPS, you can’t FGS everything and they have crap vuln stacking against mobs that can’t be FGS’d. The engie also has higher burst than the ele against trash sans FGS which makes it good for certain content.

Also IIRC TA is the only dungeon where you need a thief to stealth through and engie stealth is good enough, and that’s only if you’re going for a record run and are worried about being put in combat taking ten seconds off your run time. And even so I’m not necessarily convinced that the DPS loss from taking a thief is worth the slightly faster skip in those cases.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Engineers are the second-highest DPS in the game if you don’t count mesmers, and everyone seems to think summoning phantasms and autoattacking is really hard so… Also keep in mind that while ele has good DPS, you can’t FGS everything and they have crap vuln stacking against mobs that can’t be FGS’d. The engie also has higher burst than the ele against trash sans FGS which makes it good for certain content.

I’m aware where engineer ranks in personal DPS. But between Banner of Discipline, Banner of Strength, and Empower Allies, you’d be bonkers not to take a warrior if there isn’t one already in your party. And while it is true that you cannot FGS everything, wielding the staff with Lava Font is still stupid-good DPS, and scepter/dagger offers all it always has with fury and might stacking. If I had to choose between 15 stacks of might or 15 stacks of might with 40 seconds of fury, I’ll take the latter.

RE: Mesmers, they may max out DPS charts with Compounding Power and Empowering Mantras, but having both of these traits at maximum effectiveness is relatively rare. Mesmers still offer a hell of a lot of utility between Feedback, iWarden, and Null Field, so even if they’re not maximizing their damage output, they provide good contributions to the group that many classes otherwise cannot (i.e., Portal short cuts).

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Also IIRC TA is the only dungeon where you need a thief to stealth through and engie stealth is good enough, and that’s only if you’re going for a record run and are worried about being put in combat taking ten seconds off your run time. And even so I’m not necessarily convinced that the DPS loss from taking a thief is worth the slightly faster skip in those cases.

TA, CM, Arah … and for fractals: Snowblind, Dredge, Harpy… There are plenty of situations where a thief is a flat out superior option. Before they nerfed the bomb run in Dredge, my guildies and I just wouldn’t run FOTM without one in the party level 30 and higher. But even after the fix, there’s still plenty of situations where SS + SR > Smoke Bomb.

If you had the choice between a thief and an engineer for stealth skipping, you’re just naturally going to take the thief because they’re so much more efficient at it. They can trait to be better at it, and all it takes is one utility plus short bow #2 spam to outperform anything an engineer can offer—and that’s before Shadow Refuge is taken into account.

I’ll take my engineer into fractals for a variety of reasons, and while stealth is naturally helpful as an engineer, if stealth skipping is the objective, I’m on my thief.

It’s not about setting records—it’s about efficiency in general. Smoke Screen only has a 30 second cooldown and it costs them nothing but initiative to stealth up. Engineers have to swap around a ton of utilities for the same effectiveness, and such things take time. I used to not mind having to overcharge turrets and toss elixirs on the ground, but after leveling a thief I just ask myself why I should put myself through the trouble. It’s just so much more cumbersome for no reason at all.

There’s no mystery why thief is so commonly taken in speed clear groups, and why engineers aren’t. Mathematics may explain things on paper, but a simple eye test taking a thief through CM or TA versus an engineer should make things clear.

What part of CM or Arah (other than P3 record runs) needs a thief and can’t do with an engie? Enlighten me.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

What part of CM or Arah (other than P3 record runs) needs a thief and can’t do with an engie? Enlighten me.

Well, for one thing, a thief can solo the first part of CM p1 given all their stealth options (finding the asura tech). But p1 also have a lengthy skip option before and after Victoria leading up to Frost. The same for p3 leading to Vallog, most notably after Wahlen.

In p2, the keg run is probably the most notable example, and that SS+SR is long enough to allow you to drop you kegs, storm through the door, and then skip the
turrets.

For Arah, having a thief is just helpful for the long runs in both path 1 and path 2, most of all during the long run after Lupicus to Alphard (and from Alphard to the final boss). I don’t really run p3 anymore given the lame gold reward.

Well I must say that the from all the direct damage bursts I’ve tried out in tpvp the engineers burst-single target is of the highest tier, mostly because of the excessive amount of CC an engineer can do. This works for mobs in dungeons too ya know… Chain CC with turrets perhaps an idea? Combined with its projectile deflection, boons for allies etc… Plus the rifle still does good damage on auto-attack for a ranged weapon. But yea it can’t match the Elementalist Staff’s AoE’s… or Frostbow… Yea in pve the elementalist is definately better at direct damage. PvE condition however, or the confusion, I’m sure there’s uses for perplexity runes. With all the CC, confusion on bomb no.3, pistol no. 3 and more (I got an asura also so…)