Guild Wars 2

I recently read that engineers are supposed to be an AOE Area denial class yet we don’t have any skills for that at all.

Turrets are immovable so realistically useless outside of PvE, they have a large cooldown which shouldn’t exist based off the stats they have.

The flamethrower has such a low range and damage for how close it has to be used that its not really area denial as a slight speed bump for any toughness based opponent in melee range

Grenades are great but have recently been nerfed and they don’t deny areas they simply do damage in a small area which isn’t the same thing

If we are supposed to be area denial then where is my skill to set fire a circle of land or spread oil to knock players over? All we can do is deal AOE damage into an area over and over, that’s not denial that’s an AOE attack.

Does anyone else feel like this?

Phoenix.3416:

I recently read

Where did you recently read this?

It’s true that Engineers have the most AoE skills in the game and some powerful CC, but who said we should be area denial?

I believe it was from https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zCUvIrH2BlU&t=35m32s

Someone took a load of info out of it for engineers and posted this

“Described as mid-range skirmishers that can control battlefield in various ways such as with turrets, control skills, AoE, and other ways. “…they are going to be impactful in close range fights and have the ability to control space…” Intended on buffing the things that aren’t used as often so that they do get used as different playstyles.”

The control space bit is Area denial. Control skills and AoE are parts of area denial to but i dont see how we can actually do it.

Engineers are suppose to be the control class but… at least that’s what i heard! but that was given to guardian, we have good single target CC but nothing that would control a battleground, unless they meant the 2s stun from supply create!

The easy way to do this would be to at in a 30 point trait that increases the impact of turrets significantly.

As I’ve said before. They don’t move and are easily destroyed. Therefore, anything that is stupid enough to get hit by one of them deserves to be impacted significantly by it.

I sPvP quiet a bit, so i know how much people can QQ, if a turrent hits someone for 2k.. we will get even our name nerfed..

google.3709:

I sPvP quiet a bit, so i know how much people can QQ, if a turrent hits someone for 2k.. we will get even our name nerfed..

I don’t have an issue with a turret hitting for 2k. Thieves and warriors can hit me for 18k+ in a matter of seconds, so I don’t have any sympathy for a turret doing 2k damage. If your build is entirely turret based, aka you’ve gone 30 into inventions and picked up the turret 30 point turret trait, your turrets should be useful and they should punish people that get into the range of immobile objects with limited range, aka area control.

I want “Satchels” which are like grenades in range but bombs in timed detonation.
They would realise a number of effects into an area, such as an ice satchel which slows any enemies in an area for 10 seconds(with a cooldown of 1minute) or an oil satchel that causes people to slip( if necros can get fear why cant we knock people over? )

I figure its sort of a companion kit, it doesnt do any damage but has status effects that area deny or mess with the enemy in some way. so you can swap to grenades orbombs do to the damage

Phoenix.3416:

I recently read that engineers are supposed to be an AOE Area denial class yet we don’t have any skills for that at all.

Turrets are immovable so realistically useless outside of PvE, they have a large cooldown which shouldn’t exist based off the stats they have.

The flamethrower has such a low range and damage for how close it has to be used that its not really area denial as a slight speed bump for any toughness based opponent in melee range

Grenades are great but have recently been nerfed and they don’t deny areas they simply do damage in a small area which isn’t the same thing

If we are supposed to be area denial then where is my skill to set fire a circle of land or spread oil to knock players over? All we can do is deal AOE damage into an area over and over, that’s not denial that’s an AOE attack.

Does anyone else feel like this?

Some of the original engineer skills were quite good at area denial, but were found to be too powerful and removed. For example, the mine kit was the predecessor of the bomb kit. You could prepare an area and then switch to another weapon, similar to necro marks. The flamethrower was conceived as a control kit, with both the pushback and backdraft, an area pull. The engineer was also originally conceived as a heavy armor profession from what I understand.

Now, the engineer still has a bit of its original area denial, but I don’t think it’s any better (maybe even not as good) as other professions at it. Bomb kit is decent for area denial—most players avoid BoB now rather than risk missing a dodge and eating the blowout, so that “denies” the area to melee professions. Smoke bomb used to pulse every second and have a much larger radius, which practically shut down dps in that area. Grenades can really shut down a rez attempt, i.e. controlling an area from range. And of course, rifle can control the space around an engineer against one melee opponent.

I think that melee shutdown like this turned out to be kind of not a big deal. Anet probably expected warriors or greatsword guardians to charge into teamfights button mashing, while other professions tried to counter them by using knockbacks, etc. In reality, most professions would rather kite you than close on you.

- Magnet
- Traited throw wrench
- Box of nails
- All bombs which makes even guardians run from nodes
- Magnetic inversion
- Air blast
- Throw mine
- Net turret
- Thumper turret
- Net shot
- Overcharged shot
- Glue shot
- Big ole bomb
- Chill nades
- Personal battering ram
- Slick shoes
- …

Absolutely right OP.
We have literally 0 skills useable for area denial.

Siofra Crumble.2098:

- Magnet
- Traited throw wrench
- Box of nails
- All bombs which makes even guardians run from nodes
- Magnetic inversion
- Air blast
- Throw mine
- Net turret
- Thumper turret
- Net shot
- Overcharged shot
- Glue shot
- Big ole bomb
- Chill nades
- Personal battering ram
- Slick shoes
- …

Absolutely right OP.
We have literally 0 skills useable for area denial.

I think the OP is talking about aoe area denial, some of those skills are only for a single target. But I get your point, we still do have tons of skills to use as aoe denial.

Overall I would say the bomb kit brings most area denial, but can have a hard time versus ranged.

Let’s update the list:

Multi target Area denial abilities:
- Traited throw wrench
- Box of nails
- B-bombs!
- Air blast
- Magnetic Inversion
- Throw mine
- Thumper turret
- Glue shot
- Big ole Bomb
- Chill nades
- Launch personal battering ram
- Slick shoes
- Elixir F
- Supply crate
- Elixir X (no matter what it procs)

Single target
- Net turret
- Rocket turret
- Net shot
- Personal battering ram

That’s 15 (!) multi target abilities that can be utilized for area denial.
Granted, some are better/easier to use then others, but combining a few of these can create a lot of chaos among your enemies when it comes to controlling an area.

And this versus 4 single target abilities.
I don’t know about you, but I feel that engineer has enough area denial capabilities.

I almost pulled my hair out when reading OP’s statements.
How did you possibly get to that conclusion? I’m not trying to be mean spirited here, I just wholeheartedly disagree.
How can you claim that bombs, etc are just simple AoE attacks?
People, guardians even, fly away in all directions or plain run away due to receiving to much damage when I decide I want that node.

I’m by far not the best engineer out there, I’m decent at best, however I feel this is engineering 101.

Let them bunker nodes all they want, my job is to simply keep them off the node without having to kill them.
Their bunkering is rendered useless when you are able to neutralize and often even cap nodes from under their noses without even killing them.
But most of the time they end up dead anyway because they are to stubborn to give up the node.

In PvE I help my teammates by keeping mobs together and protecting the ranged clothies.
In WvW I do the same, next to ensuring that nobody gets away.

Sure, it doesn’t always end up in victory. But that’s not the class it’s fault.
That’s my fault.

Maybe I’m not grasping “area denial” completely but wouldn’t dropping a few turrets and peppering an area with aoe be “area denial”? Turrets raining pain (using the word lightly) and the engi showering the area with bombs, mines, grenades, and elixir clouds.

Siofra Crumble.2098:

Let’s update the list:

Multi target Area denial abilities:
- Traited throw wrench
- Box of nails
- B-bombs!
- Air blast
- Magnetic Inversion
- Throw mine
- Thumper turret
- Glue shot
- Big ole Bomb
- Chill nades
- Launch personal battering ram
- Slick shoes
- Elixir F
- Supply crate
- Elixir X (no matter what it procs)

Single target
- Net turret
- Rocket turret
- Net shot
- Personal battering ram

That’s 15 (!) multi target abilities that can be utilized for area denial.
Granted, some are better/easier to use then others, but combining a few of these can create a lot of chaos among your enemies when it comes to controlling an area.

And this versus 4 single target abilities.
I don’t know about you, but I feel that engineer has enough area denial capabilities.

I almost pulled my hair out when reading OP’s statements.
How did you possibly get to that conclusion? I’m not trying to be mean spirited here, I just wholeheartedly disagree.
How can you claim that bombs, etc are just simple AoE attacks?
People, guardians even, fly away in all directions or plain run away due to receiving to much damage when I decide I want that node.

I’m by far not the best engineer out there, I’m decent at best, however I feel this is engineering 101.

Let them bunker nodes all they want, my job is to simply keep them off the node without having to kill them.
Their bunkering is rendered useless when you are able to neutralize and often even cap nodes from under their noses without even killing them.
But most of the time they end up dead anyway because they are to stubborn to give up the node.

In PvE I help my teammates by keeping mobs together and protecting the ranged clothies.
In WvW I do the same, next to ensuring that nobody gets away.

Sure, it doesn’t always end up in victory. But that’s not the class it’s fault.
That’s my fault.

Most of the skills you mention are 1 or 2 high cooldown or weak moves per kit, for a class with the apparent focus of ranged area denial 1 skill per kit isn’t exactly going to cut it.
AOE denial lasts more than a few seconds like a bomb.An example is the Glue Bomb but there aren’t any other skills that are so obviously area denial or that last long at all.
Some of those skills aren’t really what I class as area denial such as airblast is a control skill its not denying the area to enemies for a set amount of time its just pushing them back.

It depends how you define area denial, in my definition grenades are area denial but the class itself doesn’t really area denial better than any other class. Elementalists can probably control an area with AOE attacks better than an engineer while area denial is supposedly our job

Seras.5702:

Maybe I’m not grasping “area denial” completely but wouldn’t dropping a few turrets and peppering an area with aoe be “area denial”? Turrets raining pain (using the word lightly) and the engi showering the area with bombs, mines, grenades, and elixir clouds.

thats a form of area denial but its not exactly the correct usage since you are attacking an area over and over regardless of whose in it. If it prevents the enemy from been able to move into that area without taking a large status effect eg slipping or cripple its not really area denial but more of an AOE attack.

Mines are an example of area denial although they aren’t exactly powerful and are easy to avoid.

Siofra Crumble.2098

I see the point your making listing all our “CC area denial” skills, but, you’ve got to remember that all these skills are not avaliable at the same time.
i.e.
1 off hand pistol and shield
2 9 utillity skills don’t fit into 3 utillity slots
3 and you can only have 1 elite skill not 2.
I also doubt that you would want to fill your skill slot with only these type of skills.

I also can not see the point of useing all these skills and not being able to kill or even hurt another player. Driving them away only for them to heal and come back with a different stratergy while all your skills are on cool down. Let alone surviving if 2 or more decide they want to take this particular area from you. I understand also that it all really comes down to the classes in a lot of cases.

But on a side note it all comes down on how you want to play the class yourself.

This depends on what you mean as area denial. The biggest point of contention may be the difference between damage and control in dealing with it. Differing thresholds of control and damage may even be a factor in one’s personal definition of what area denial is.

Control that knocks people back, abilities that make it so you don’t want to be in a location, AoE damage that is extremely threatening, and things you just want to stay away from all contribute to area denial for me. In terms of what a Condi-Burst build offers for area denial it’s just Glue Shot, Supply Crate, and a rather high amount of AoE damage when you are close up with the Engineer. That really means you don’t want a team to have a high concentration on a control point when fighting this build, which to me is a form of area denial. Combined with another area denial build that focuses on pushing that “Bunker” off the point you can neut it much easier.

The term “area denial” has a specific meaning in a military context. Combat engineers in modern armies practice area denial by the laying of mines and doing things like blowing up bridges. Combat engineers also are experts at clearing areas, providing access. Ever seen a show like Bomb Patrol Afghanistan? Those are combat engineers. Area denial isn’t necessarily about damage, but controlling access to an area.

The engineer class in GW2 is meant to imitate this real life combat role. Seriously, if you go read a little about combat engineers, it seems like some dev just read the same thing as you and started making skills.

You need to add Accelerant-packed and detonating turrets to the list of AoE CC skills.

Belgrat.4306:

Siofra Crumble.2098

I see the point your making listing all our “CC area denial” skills, but, you’ve got to remember that all these skills are not avaliable at the same time.
i.e.
1 off hand pistol and shield
2 9 utillity skills don’t fit into 3 utillity slots
3 and you can only have 1 elite skill not 2.
I also doubt that you would want to fill your skill slot with only these type of skills.

I also can not see the point of useing all these skills and not being able to kill or even hurt another player. Driving them away only for them to heal and come back with a different stratergy while all your skills are on cool down. Let alone surviving if 2 or more decide they want to take this particular area from you. I understand also that it all really comes down to the classes in a lot of cases.

But on a side note it all comes down on how you want to play the class yourself.

I wrote in my previous post that you can combine “a few” of these.
Magnet, magnetic inversion, big ole bomb, bombs in general, box of nails, supply crate and let’s say slick shoes can all be easily combined into a single build.
Not saying this is the best combo ever, but it will provide you with a lot of area denial if that’s what you want.

Phoenix.3416:

Most of the skills you mention are 1 or 2 high cooldown or weak moves per kit, for a class with the apparent focus of ranged area denial 1 skill per kit isn’t exactly going to cut it.
AOE denial lasts more than a few seconds like a bomb.An example is the Glue Bomb but there aren’t any other skills that are so obviously area denial or that last long at all.
Some of those skills aren’t really what I class as area denial such as airblast is a control skill its not denying the area to enemies for a set amount of time its just pushing them back.

It depends how you define area denial, in my definition grenades are area denial but the class itself doesn’t really area denial better than any other class. Elementalists can probably control an area with AOE attacks better than an engineer while area denial is supposedly our job

I also wrote that some skills lister are better then others and/or easier to use.
But still, the skills are there for when you want them.
And the ancient “ele’s can do it better” argument, no, not really.
Sure they can AoE an area with staff, but they can’t exactly afford to get close to you.
Or they can utilize D/D for rampant close quarter action, but hardly any D/D ele will be able to go toe to toe with you for long.
They’ll die or retreat, if you are very focused on area denial abilities.

Ele’s can at most do it as good as an engineer. But they don’t have this number of area denial abilities and such easy access to it as an engineer to force you of an area.

Chaba.5410:

You need to add Accelerant-packed and detonating turrets to the list of AoE CC skills.

Agreed with your post and I’m sorry I didn’t add these fine examples.
I just did the list from the top of my head and since I’m not really a turret user I overlooked these.

Phoenix.3416:

Seras.5702:

Maybe I’m not grasping “area denial” completely but wouldn’t dropping a few turrets and peppering an area with aoe be “area denial”? Turrets raining pain (using the word lightly) and the engi showering the area with bombs, mines, grenades, and elixir clouds.

thats a form of area denial but its not exactly the correct usage since you are attacking an area over and over regardless of whose in it. If it prevents the enemy from been able to move into that area without taking a large status effect eg slipping or cripple its not really area denial but more of an AOE attack.

Mines are an example of area denial although they aren’t exactly powerful and are easy to avoid.

So if I shower an area with AOE and combo fields and surround it with turrets (and yes, lay a mine or 5)…wouldn’t that be an area you’d stay the kitten out of? I try to avoid gasious clouds or burning walls or being surrounded by enemy turrets. But maybe I’m doing it wrong.

Siofra,

I wrote my post rather generally, but the last sentence was indeed meant just for you. Sorry if it seemed like the whole post was directed at you.

Seras.5702:

Phoenix.3416:

Seras.5702:

Maybe I’m not grasping “area denial” completely but wouldn’t dropping a few turrets and peppering an area with aoe be “area denial”? Turrets raining pain (using the word lightly) and the engi showering the area with bombs, mines, grenades, and elixir clouds.

thats a form of area denial but its not exactly the correct usage since you are attacking an area over and over regardless of whose in it. If it prevents the enemy from been able to move into that area without taking a large status effect eg slipping or cripple its not really area denial but more of an AOE attack.

Mines are an example of area denial although they aren’t exactly powerful and are easy to avoid.

So if I shower an area with AOE and combo fields and surround it with turrets (and yes, lay a mine or 5)…wouldn’t that be an area you’d stay the kitten out of? I try to avoid gasious clouds or burning walls or being surrounded by enemy turrets. But maybe I’m doing it wrong.

In that case yes but those mines are weak and those turrets near useless in the current build not to mention how few combo fields we have and how they don’t exactly last long.

Compared to how many AOE damage skills an Ele has the engineer I dont think does as much as area denial as you would expect to be called a class for doing area denial as its focus.

Do we have any links to actual area denial builds that do any decent damage? if its our main focus then it should be the most common build.

Knockbacks + Roots would be considered area denial as well as heavy AoE damage.
An engineer can compete with any bunker and out class them unless the other player has access to stability [and if no backup arrives].
Rifle + Bomb Kit gives you a good source of knockbacks, AoE damage & roots which are the bane of any player trying to sit on a small node.
imo engineers are one of the best de-bunker bunkers because we can heal and do damage at the same time with really short cooldowns. Only time you’ll run into trouble is when backup arrives and they start CCing you.
I’ve had a couple of battles where backup came to support a bunker ele\guard and I was still able to keep the point in my favor because they couldnt reliably root me in place.
Guardians currently have the best [AoE area denial skills] with those barriers you can’t cross + knockbacks and stability.

Phoenix.3416:

In that case yes but those mines are weak and those turrets near useless in the current build not to mention how few combo fields we have and how they don’t exactly last long.

Compared to how many AOE damage skills an Ele has the engineer I dont think does as much as area denial as you would expect to be called a class for doing area denial as its focus.

Do we have any links to actual area denial builds that do any decent damage? if its our main focus then it should be the most common build.

Here is a link to the build I started off using:
[COPY PASTE] http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQFAUl0pic3zyuF8LJxIFfuzheUYBrWRF0/nCyF;TkAgzCqo2xsjYH7Oudk7MCB [COPY PASTE]

You will have a hard time killing anything with that build unless its against a melee toon dumb enough to stay engaged and eat your bombs.
Once I started getting comfortable with the style and switching kits constantly; I started switching things out to deal more damage. [I prefer using P\S because the stun on (Shield#5) will prevent a nub bunker from healing at the last second and (shield#4) is great for knocking thieves out of Shadow Refuge.

Our area control isnt non-existant. But if thats suppose to be our strength, we’re not doing it good enough. We’re not much above average when it comes to area denial, and certainly not the best.

Compare it to a Thief, who’s strength is mobility/evasiveness. That guy is uncatchable, poof stealth and before you see him again he’s half a map away. Thats his strength by design and he does it better then anyone else.
So all im saying is, if area control is suppose to be our strength then why do other professions do it better and we barely beat the average assuming everyone tries.

So dont start comparing an Engineer who decks out fully for area control to a standard GC Ranger that is using a build that doesnt even acknowledge the existance of area denial.

I agree that Ele’s can throw down more longer-lasting aoe fields. However, you didn’t say “kill stuff in a certain area,” you said “area denial.” Which, to me, means keep people outta your yard. And if your yard has turrets and a poison field, a fire wall, a smoke screen, a half dozen mines blinking, and a dude with a flamethrower and an evil grin…you better believe I ain’t going nowhere near that kid’s yard. I have been effectively denied. It might not kill me, it might. And if I get stuck in a puddle of glue…I’m probably a goner. Either way, I’m gonna look for another area to occupy until I get some more friends.

As for control…yea, I agree we haven’t got the best control. We can push people away and we’ve got a few nets but we’re not as good as other classes. Gotta say that we’re not fitting the bill if Anet says we’re control kings.

“kill stuff in a certain area,” vs “area denial.”

Backing up what Seras said, let me repeat that area denial is not “killing stuff in a certain area”. It is not meant to be AoE damage. It’s about AoE control.

Flamethrower weak? Where do you people get this… Not so long ago the damage was bumped up by 10%, and considering how fast it hits that’s quite a lot, and being able to detonate flare shot (I call it that) at will is quite nice. I’ve been in wvwvw a lot lately, and the impression I get is that flamethrower is meant to do some serious multi target damage when your allies occupy clusters of foes – And it’s a godsend for hunting down mesmers.

It’s also a great chase tool.

Hmm…

Well, using the definition of area denial that is “keep things away from my points,” engineers are potentially the best. As someone pointed out, we do have a large number of skills that should make people think twice about wandering onto our point, but some of our abilities with the greatest potential (mines, turrets, FT) are currently not living up to it.

What I mean by that is mines/minefield generally only have a token effect on the fight (as the minefields are placed randomly and do little damage and the single mine has a 15-18 second cooldown, meaning you’ll only see it once or twice usually), turrets can be detonated to push people off points but don’t passively contribute to people’s choice of rush/don’t rush, which is more a numbers thing than anything else, and our flamethrower is only dangerous with its 2 ability, the pushback is short ranged, the flamewall doesn’t do anything to slow people down, and 5 is far too situational.

Now, that’s just three examples, we have more out there, but the point is, we simply aren’t as great as we ought to be. Which is not to say we’re bad, we simply have to work harder with other abilities.