Guild Wars 2

Hello everyone, I’ve been a lurker for awhile but after starting my thief alt, I had to make a post.

The highest number I’ve seen flash the screen while playing my engi in wvw direct damage has been around 1.5k with level 80 gear.

I took my thief into WvW in level 12 gear and right away I am hitting with unload for over 4k!

I’d heard about people critting for 7k but I thought they were just making it up, but this has really been an eye opener.

Are we really this underpowered or does condition damage close this giant gap?

no. condition damage falls WAY behind direct damage.

Even if we ignore the ease of condition removal, and problems with conditions not stacking in large groups.

As you say, if you make the mistake of going p/p and conditions.
You will see numbers like 300-800 direct, with burns around 600, confuse 800, etc.

Swap to a power/crit grenade build and suddenly, 5-6k grenade barrages, 1.2k grenade 1 which hits 3 times for 3.6k actual damage.
A 600/s burn does not compare to 7.2k/s grenades. Even if it goes full duration.

Condition damage is currently something that is applied as a bonus on top of your real damage. But is NOT something you should focus on.

Your thought process here can be your down fall as a thief. I use P/S myself, and I love thieves who think as you do. Now if it does 4k on medium armor, what do you think it does to light armor when I reflect it back to you at my higher crit rate?

What does an engineers condition damage have to do with a thief’s direct damage? Your comparing the glassiest of glass cannons with one of the most diversity capabale class in the game.

coglin.1496:

Your thought process here can be your down fall as a thief. I use P/S myself, and I love thieves who think as you do. Now if it does 4k on medium armor, what do you think it does to light armor when I reflect it back to you at my higher crit rate?

What does an engineers condition damage have to do with a thief’s direct damage? Your comparing the glassiest of glass cannons with one of the most diversity capabale class in the game.

Well, true as that may be, I still think it is unfair.
Yes engineers are diverse, They can support, dps and cc.
But engineers dps just SUCKS.

Build differently. Rifles and grenades both put out high direct damage.

bombs as well can. Although in a wvw setting, the delayed melee nature.. hard to use.

Flamethower is also heavy direct damage. However, its scaling is terrible. don’t use it.

p/p itself is even stronger direct damage then conditions. Although, does obviously scale less then grenades or rifle.

Engineers are and forever will be a support class. Despite what ANet say about abolishing the holy trinity—Engineers are the healers. We are the only class that simply is not made to DPS.

So with or without condition damage, I don’t think our DPS output will ever rival other classes. It’s just not meant to be.

Xocolatl.6890:

Engineers are and forever will be a support class.

They are at the high end of AoE damage. Possibly 2nd in cond damage. I have to disagree with you

They are rather weak if there are 2 or more condition build professions in a group. This is only because of the way conditions stack and our pistol #1 is kitten for stacking bleed after its nerf.
The amount of condition cleansing doesn’t help, but luckily engineers have various condition skills that constantly apply/have a low cooldown.
Damage wise, a power/precision/crit damage build will beat a heavy condition damage engineer, but as with most glass cannons, they shatter easily, while a conditions engineer can pick up plenty of toughness to keep him alive and perhaps some vitaility on the side.

Well, it depends on what you want to do.
Sure thief is better for 1v1 duel situations.
But in mass-pvp having a huge ranged AOE condition barrage is very usefull. Maybe you won’t be the #1 DPS in your mob. But you’ll help alot at killing enemies.
So I feell it’s kinda ok.

I’m currently running a dual pistol condition/toughness/vit build and so far the only class I’m not able to completely demolish 1v1 is guardian, just due to their massive heals. Thieves melt like butter and casters aren’t even worth considering… melee warriors are pretty easy to deal with as well thanks to kiting. Rifle warriors and longbow rangers make me sad but if I can close the gap they are done for.

If they buffed my condition damage or gave me more burst on top of it my character would become the definition of god mode. As much fun as that would be, I would really hate to see engineer become the next thief and have every PvP match consist of 8 engineers and 2 random other classes.

Have to say I’ve never had a problem running a power or condition based engineer; I’m only mediocre at PvP but I can still take people 1v1 a good amount of the time, sometimes 2v1 if I’m lucky. The engie is an extremely versatile class and there are a ton of builds for it that work well, but most of those builds do take more practice than some of the more popular builds of other classes (such as the thief’s heartseeker spammer build). As much as I’d love to log in one day and suddenly be more powerful, I have to agree with Tolmos; we can put out plenty of damage with the stats and abilities we already have.

Ronin.5038:

They are rather weak if there are 2 or more condition build professions in a group. This is only because of the way conditions stack and our pistol #1 is kitten for stacking bleed after its nerf.

I have to disagree. Mobs can only have bleeds stack up to 25. I always see all of my condition numbers. That means I am always in the high enough tiers that my conditions always registers. I have 4-6 stacks of bleeds up at all times. That is 530-780 damage per second, just on bleeds. That is not counting direct AoE damage of explosive shot. Figure in the direct damage of poison dart hitting multiple targets for nice direct damage, add in the condition damage, and figure that it can be kept up on a target 100% of the time its solid. Between bomb kit, tool kit, and static shot, I can keep a minimum of 2 stacks of confusion on the target. That causes 1000+ damage every time they act. I see an enemy take 2500 damage just for healing themselves, which also heals for much 1/3 less with poison as well.

I have trouble calling that rather weak.

coglin.1496:

Ronin.5038:

They are rather weak if there are 2 or more condition build professions in a group. This is only because of the way conditions stack and our pistol #1 is kitten for stacking bleed after its nerf.

I have to disagree. Mobs can only have bleeds stack up to 25. I always see all of my condition numbers. That means I am always in the high enough tiers that my conditions always registers. I have 4-6 stacks of bleeds up at all times. That is 530-780 damage per second, just on bleeds. That is not counting direct AoE damage of explosive shot. Figure in the direct damage of poison dart hitting multiple targets for nice direct damage, add in the condition damage, and figure that it can be kept up on a target 100% of the time its solid. Between bomb kit, tool kit, and static shot, I can keep a minimum of 2 stacks of confusion on the target. That causes 1000+ damage every time they act. I see an enemy take 2500 damage just for healing themselves, which also heals for much 1/3 less with poison as well.

I have trouble calling that rather weak.

Ever fought one of those big fancy dragons or one of those popular event bosses? With 20+ people attacking one target, condition builds are shafted. Burn and poison only stacks in duration, not intensity, so while you may be seeing damage from your burn and poisons, the other people running condition builds would not.
Compare this with power builds that can just deal straight up damage with no drawbacks, and power builds are superior when in a group setting.

Condition damage > direct damage on a buffed Guild Claiming NPC in WvWvW, and some 1 vs 1 fights. That is all.

Unfortunately that is the state of condition damage right now. However, with a few tweaks Anet could make it worthwhile.

I’ve tried running a condition build with an engineer, and it just didn’t have the same impact as running a condition build on a mesmer/thief/necromancer/elemtalist did. The biggest problems are that an engineer cannot stack or sustain conditions very well in a PVP setting. The short term conditions might seem viable in the face of condition curing, but it is actually the opposite of that. Condition curing usually only works once or so before it goes on cooldown, leaving an enemy open to stacking again. Engineers lack that option, so a good regen can negate much of their condition damage.

Foreword: I only play PVP.

I only run condition builds when I have to DPS because I could never make a power build work, no matter what.
A rotation of dual pistols and grenades can stack a lot of conditions quickly on a target, and the fairly low cooldowns on traited grenades can allow you to reapply them fairly easily if the opponent has some form of condition removal.

If anyone knows any good power build and tips on how to make it work, please share.

Mysticforce.5096:

Condition damage > direct damage on a buffed Guild Claiming NPC in WvWvW, and some 1 vs 1 fights. That is all.

Unfortunately that is the state of condition damage right now. However, with a few tweaks Anet could make it worthwhile.

Stack vul. Vul kills those guys, not conditions.

Vulnerability is a condition.

Ronin.5038:

Ever fought one of those big fancy dragons or one of those popular event bosses? With 20+ people attacking one target, condition builds are shafted. Burn and poison only stacks in duration, not intensity, so while you may be seeing damage from your burn and poisons, the other people running condition builds would not.
Compare this with power builds that can just deal straight up damage with no drawbacks, and power builds are superior when in a group setting.

Condition builds are not shafted. Not as a whole or as you state it. The only condition build that suffer are the under geared condition builds or those running conditions without focusing on condition damage stats.

Now I agree that straight power or crit builds have less draw backs.

It is beyond me why the devs have any conditions damage stack in durations. They should all simply stack similar to bleeds with intensity. Then they can adjust accordingly from their.

The thing is, the OP didn’t ask if he fought one of those fancy dragons with 20+ people their, if condition damage can compete with direct damage? he asked it looking at straight numbers, which he clarified with an example, not in very specific instances.

Side remark, but concerning condition damage build vs power build:

What I don’t like is how several conditions proc from crits. While they should proc from hits I think.

I find it odd that, in order to get my conditions stack up fast, I have to invest in precision that much. While my conditions itself benefit far less from precision than a power build would do.

It can be seen as ‘balancing’ i’m sure, but it does strike me as odd. Particualrly in pvp I find it annoying to build around.

“5-6k grenade barrages”

Mine don’t seem to be anywhere near this powerful, am I missing something?

Also, I can’t seem to reproduce 4k hits using unload with my thief anymore, it was WvW and we may have had stonemist buffs, but that wouldn’t make that huge of a difference right? Now it seems my thief is hitting more like my engi, around 2k at most.

zerker gear? Depends what target you face as well. tooltip is factored vs 2600 armor. most cloth are around 2000, medium 2200, heavy 2400. unless they specifically gear or trait for toughness.

Yeah, guild buffs, food, and 150 stat orbs can make a HUGE difference.
I discusses this in guild on the importance of never letting an opposing server get all 3 orbs.
its nearly a 20% damage shift.
150 toughness is like 6.5% damage reduction.
While 150 power/crit is like 13% damage increase.
So if I have 3 orbs, You deal 6.5% less damage to me, and I deal 13% more damage to you. ouch.
Food can then be another +60 power, guild buffs another 40 power,

Health scaling is huge too.
orbs give 150. you can guild buff for 40 vit. that is 1900 hp alone.
Then % buffs.
Orbs are +15%, guild +10% and realm bonus is like 2-10%. Pretty sure they are independant as well iirc.
Meaning. if you have 19000 hp normally. zone into wvw, and get guild buff.
20900. *1.35=28215
Orbs double dip by giving Vit, and then a % bonus on top of that. And then there are 3 % based hp sources of hp in WvW.

Gearing for vit in wvw is then probably a bad idea. While any vit you gear, will get % increased, its more effective to gear for toughness which will then scale with that high vit value.

Also, reason why conditions are bad in wvw #103034. Everyones vit is skyrocketed innately.

Grenade barrage.
.357 power scaling per. 6 hits. (I don’t think it gains from grenadier a 7th.)
It uses 969 weapon damage no matter what, however does gain the stats from rifle/pistols if you have them out, and not grenade kit. so, you could be getting +179 power, 128 prec, and 9% crit damage from that.
3000 power vs 2200 armor target. (I should write down my stats in full zerkers with 9-15 stacks of might, orb/guild buffs, food/consumables..)
472 av per hit. fury and zerkers should give a good 80% crit chance.
661 av with base +50% damage crits. 3967 barrage. And that is base crit. I.. actually need to do the math on how +crit damage works. is it additive? Is +9% on zerker rifle, +59%, or multiplicative, +54.9% damage.
Ruby orbs are 5% per, tools is 10-20%, rifle 9%, zerker gear is 5% per. Its a large buff as well obviously.

Generally someone in power/prec/crit damage gear will always do far more damage than someone with condition damage due to the fact that once you get that trinity damage scaling is no longer linear.

Condition damage has two benefits though

1) It ignores toughness.

2) It only takes up one stat slot.

So in short, if you want raw damage don’t ever build condition damage. If you want high utility and/or survivability condition damage is normally a better choice.

thing here is, ok, engineers dont to half as much damage as any other class, let alone glass cannons, even then, i manage to get a 2k non-crit with every dart volt alley( or however thats called,) which i think its ok taken im on a full condition damage build being hiper tankish, so i dont expect raw power. BUT really, i got a full condition damage necromancer as well and its just not fair the amount of damage it does compared to my condi dmg engineer, its sheer damage, well engineer is a litle behind in that aspect. but overall, no, condition damage will not close the gap between damage you make with raw power and condis, but at least condi damage fits a litle better in not-so-glass-cannons builds.
its all up to you, i have always been a dot lover, no real reason.

Grenades are by far the highest consistent damage weapon in the game. to the point, its not really even fair to argue balance vs them. Their damage is too high. This is largely the reason for “if you aren’t using grenades, you are doing it wrong” posts. some others are under powered, some are in a fairly good place, with minor tweaking. but grenades completely trivialize everything else.
(not necessarily the most burst. I had a 5k mug, 6k CnD, 10k backstab pretty much instantly on me last week for example from a thief using a burst build)

That 3k power build I mentioned, which is not hard to hit with zerker gear, food, might stacks, will be dealing 6-8k per second with grenade 1 alone. You think that 3k/s from a war/thief is bad? its not aoe, and its not ranged. Or even a 20k hundred blades. 20k over 3seconds, rooted in melee. I do that much damage with grenades. all the time, from range.

Grenade 1 has a .478 power scaling on a .5s cast.
With grenadier, effectively 1.46 every .5s, and 2.92s. Compare that to anything else.
And this is with being weakened by kit weapon damage.
Burns scale at .25s of cond damage, bleeds at .05. Grenade 1 scales at 2.92 of power/s., then crit and crit damage on top of that, as well as buffs, such as explosions do 10 more damage. Do you see the problem?

ColdSnowden.6071:

“5-6k grenade barrages”

Mine don’t seem to be anywhere near this powerful, am I missing something?

Also, I can’t seem to reproduce 4k hits using unload with my thief anymore, it was WvW and we may have had stonemist buffs, but that wouldn’t make that huge of a difference right? Now it seems my thief is hitting more like my engi, around 2k at most.

Full glass build on my engi (About 2600 power with 25 bloodlust stacks up and 93% crit damage) and the highest grenade barrage I’ve ever gotten in WvW was almost 17k. In dungeons (so orbs aren’t a factor) highest I’ve seen is around 14.5k

Engineers are the #1 WvW profession with easy spammable aoes that hit for big numbers when traited for power/crit and geared into full berserkers.

Not sure what you’re doing on thief, but most thieves in WvW have instant unload 3x of 6-7k damage (and this is with knight’s gear), usually enough to kill many players, especially with the rendering bug.

double checked. and crit damage stat is additive.

So base crits are +50% damage. +zerk ammy gives +20% crit damage.
this gives you +70% damage crits. 30 in tools would give +100%.
It only shows the value over 50% in char sheet however.
A 700 hit, would deal 1400 crit damage with +50% crit damage listed.

It all boils down to personal preference, and playstyle. I agree with some of the earlier posts, that in late game DE’s/bosses a burst build would have less hassle, and you wouldnt have to worry about over stacking, etc… Regardless, it still funnels down into style, how YOU want to play.

for example, here is a condition build i use frequntly for sPvP/tounrey’s:
(copy and paste web address, direct link doesnt work from forums?)
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcEQJAqalspSXnvShF17IBoH5t+8V0jHTZI/pAbB;ToAAzCpo6y4lwLLMuukwMqYWB
This build has high toughness, alot of condition removal/application, extreme up-time on your boons, and does Heavy condition damage, that can spread quick like a wild fire… (especially with pistol bullets piercing.) Very team/support oriented, but has plenty of utility for 1v1s. Basically, you can easily outlast almost anyone.

Now, here is my prefered burst build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcEQFAUl0pKeH5STF1LJxoHkW0bGkC96XRF0/nCsF;ToAA2CvoqxUjoGbNuak1MKZWB
This is my favorite burst build.. now, some burst engineers Swear by grenade barage, which i agree, does crazy dmg, but thats it. Nades are fun for WvW if completley specced for it, but i prefer this build because its consistent burst, instead of every 30sec when im ready to front-load. one of the staples is surprise shot, when combo’d with static discharge, can do alot of quick dmaage, and every 7 seconds. Not to mention, it can be activated mid stun/ability, for some quick damage. Ram head and throw wrench both cripple (due to traits) and hit very hard aswell… combo these with overcharged shot and its quite easy to keep your distance. As fun as this build is for me, it has its draw backs… if i get zerged or eat the opener of a burst, your pretty much done for…. this build is more viable when your playing a DPS role in a PVE/PVP group…

So, as ive stated already, it boils down to preference. I showed a few of my favorite builds for reference, but they fit MY playstyle, they may not fit yours. Just understand that most every build is viable (dont let anyone tell you any build isnt). What matters most is your personal synergy with the way your character currently funtions…. take your time, get in some practice, and make tweeks to your builds as you deem neccesary. If you prefer the burst DPS, do it. If you want to experienemtn with a condition build, Do it…. then form your own formula that fits you.

just my 2c =p

I’m not sure what’s going on in this thread, but I have a few opinions on the matter.

Engineer condition damage is extremely effective, and I personally think is a “secret OP” type of build that very few people use in sPvP. Grenades, Pistol, and Bomb conditions are incredibly powerful. They even have fantastic direct damage coefficients, so a Carrion’s Amulet is a very viable choice. You match the condition damage output of other condition damage dealers, except you bring tons of Blind, moderate direct damage (with Carrion’s), overload people with a variety of conditions, and can have incredible survival and mobility while doing so. It’s one of the few professions that can bring so much Chill and Poison to shut down bunker Guardians. You can cycle through an effective three weapon sets so that you hardly ever need to use “auto-attacks”, making it so everything you do is as potent as using cooldown attacks in succession.

Conditions are generally not that great in WvW however, due to the faster nature of the combat. This can be turned around by having a Necromancer use Epidemic, as that pretty much makes it game over without AoE condition removal. It’s going to require a good amount of teamwork, and at minimum Grenades are crazy ranged so you always have something to do. Engineer’s are one of the better WvW professions in my book.

Engineer Power builds are fine in their current state. Are they as good some Thief or Mesmer builds? No, but I think those are above and beyond what they should be. The Engineer is a perfectly viable profession choice, and in my opinion one of the top ones out there. There are tons of things that need to be fixed and adjusted before they start becoming useful, but all professions have this issue and it’s to be expected in a young MMO.

At low levels though, in WvW, you aren’t going to have the trait support for super effective condition damage. +50% or more condition duration makes a huge difference, and of course trait support can make a huge difference. Tbh though, I leveled up aiming toward a “Carrion” style of gear anyway (Condition Damage, Power, Vitality). It’s the kind of build that solos 4 to 5 veterans just as easily as it kills a single veteran. Smoke Bomb is absolutely incredible.

coglin.1496:

Vulnerability is a condition.

Ronin.5038:

Ever fought one of those big fancy dragons or one of those popular event bosses? With 20+ people attacking one target, condition builds are shafted. Burn and poison only stacks in duration, not intensity, so while you may be seeing damage from your burn and poisons, the other people running condition builds would not.
Compare this with power builds that can just deal straight up damage with no drawbacks, and power builds are superior when in a group setting.

Condition builds are not shafted. Not as a whole or as you state it. The only condition build that suffer are the under geared condition builds or those running conditions without focusing on condition damage stats.

Now I agree that straight power or crit builds have less draw backs.

It is beyond me why the devs have any conditions damage stack in durations. They should all simply stack similar to bleeds with intensity. Then they can adjust accordingly from their.

The thing is, the OP didn’t ask if he fought one of those fancy dragons with 20+ people their, if condition damage can compete with direct damage? he asked it looking at straight numbers, which he clarified with an example, not in very specific instances.

I think you may have misunderstood what i posted. I was pointing out that condition builds are shafted in large fights due to certain damaging conditions stacking in duration and not intensity while power/crit/crit damage builds can unload with no damage reduction other of toughness.

To the OP, no i don’t think a full condition damage build can stand up to the damage of a power/precision/crit damage grenade spam #1 build, but what condition damage looses in damage, it makes up for with utility such as weakness and healing reduction and we can build to be much more tanky while those glass cannons will break as soon as something looks at them.

I think conditions do not have only condition damages in them. They are often accompanied by a direct damage and a malicious effect for a period of time. This does make a difference. For example, poison also decreases heal potency by 33%. Tranquilizer dart also gives weakness and combo finisher, in addition to direct damage and bleeding.

Compare the pure damage output doesn’t seem practical, since after all you are using each skill or skill set as a whole, not only the direct damage part or condition damage part.

Secondly I don’t know about how a super tank works in this scenario, but condition damage won’t be mitigated by armour class, protection, glancing, weakness, etc. Condition damage might turn out to be more effective in some situations?

I personally think a mixture of direct damage and condition damage is better, since some rivals might be good at removing conditions, others might be good at armour class, protection, weakening, healing, etc.

Arsenica.2105:

thing here is, ok, engineers dont to half as much damage as any other class, let alone glass cannons

Elementalists would sourly disagree with this, as would Necromancers.

Vuh.

Can’t agree more with you.
It’s a pain in the neck. I always use bomb #1.

But I think it makes sense if Burning is applicable to objects in full effect. (And burning shall also be able to spread to objects in the neighborhood.)

I can agree that poison and bleeding etc shall not be applicable to “dead” objects though.

Casia.4281:

no. condition damage falls WAY behind direct damage.

Swap to a power/crit grenade build and suddenly, 5-6k grenade barrages, 1.2k grenade 1 which hits 3 times for 3.6k actual damage.
A 600/s burn does not compare to 7.2k/s grenades. Even if it goes full duration.

5-6k grenade barrages?

I’ve never even broke 3k with this skill using it point blank at an unmoving target. I have full 80 masterwork gear with power, precision, and crit damage. I know I’m not in exotics but can they really double my damage output? Maybe I’m specced wrong but I just can’t seem to get these kind of numbers.

ColdSnowden.6071:

Casia.4281:

no. condition damage falls WAY behind direct damage.

Swap to a power/crit grenade build and suddenly, 5-6k grenade barrages, 1.2k grenade 1 which hits 3 times for 3.6k actual damage.
A 600/s burn does not compare to 7.2k/s grenades. Even if it goes full duration.

5-6k grenade barrages?

I’ve never even broke 3k with this skill using it point blank at an unmoving target. I have full 80 masterwork gear with power, precision, and crit damage. I know I’m not in exotics but can they really double my damage output? Maybe I’m specced wrong but I just can’t seem to get these kind of numbers.

Yes, definitely. Power/prec/crit scale geometrically with each other, and there’s almost a 20% difference between masterwork and exotic. The improvement is substantial.

I will definitely agree that burst power damage is in a better place than condition damage, and that professions like thief / warrior are really good at burst damage.

But engi’s can still do pretty well, bomb / grenades do a lot of burst damage in power builds.

But I think the area where engineers excel is being a hybrid mixing power / condi damage.

We have access to a lot of confusion. bomb / tool kit, and pistol are great sources for it. We also get tons of burning through traits, and abilities.

With condition spec’s it’s also very easy for us to have bleeding, poison, burning, and confusion up with fluff conditions to mask them.

Even without going all the way into + condi damage. You can easily get 6-700 with another 250 from might and have your burning tick 5-600 and your confusion do above 1000 per tick, all the while still hitting hard with your power moves.

It’s not perfect and your not going to be pull thief / warrior numbers, but it’s not bad at all.