Guild Wars 2

First of all, I like the concept to give a better graphical and mechanical identity to the scrapper for the same reasons you presented.

But, basically these little guys will have to deal with damages during the fight, which means we will have the same problem discussed in every posts: gyro = turrets 2.0, and when we see how any auto attack can usually damages 3 targets and how the turrets can be easily destroyed…. I am not sure what is the point having gyros moving around during the fight as you will be in close/melee range.

As always we have the same problem: the health pool of the gyros and turrets. And we will only have an idea of their resistance against damages (which imo will be non existent) when we will test them next BWE.

Maybe the main point of the use of the gyros would be to change the cd duration.

What I like:
- “Minion army feel”: judging when and if you want to send out one of your gyros to do a job for you or stay for passive boni
- Possible visual scrapper appeal

Concerns / questions:
- 2 new hidden CDs instead of one. Might need an additional UI element to manage gyros.
- Will gyros come back if not killed after finishing/res? If yes, one might want to call them back even before they do because of incoming damage. This would require another key or overload our already multi-purpose interact key even more (with turret pickup and function gyro command it already has 2 more functions than on other professions and even with just turrets there’re conflicts).
- Will they be able to be damaged while circling around you?
- While it’s interesting to manage resources, in a continuing fight with these numbers where you want to res/stomp often, your “gyro-rate” will be 60s instead of 30s while possibly loosing all passive benefit from the traits. As a tanky (primary) melee spec I’d prefer a mechanic that rewards being and staying in the midst of things.

Nieguen.6235:

First of all, I like the concept to give a better graphical and mechanical identity to the scrapper for the same reasons you presented.

But, basically these little guys will have to deal with damages during the fight, which means we will have the same problem discussed in every posts: gyro = turrets 2.0, and when we see how any auto attack can usually damages 3 targets and how the turrets can be easily destroyed…. I am not sure what is the point having gyros moving around during the fight as you will be in close/melee range.

As always we have the same problem: the health pool of the gyros and turrets. And we will only have an idea of their resistance against damages (which imo will be non existent) when we will test them next BWE.

Maybe the main point of the use of the gyros would be to change the cd duration.

Thanks for the feedback, maybe it wasn’t clear but the suggested re-worked Function Gyros before they are invoked are non-combative, meaning untargetable and dormant, they’d only materialize at the target when used.

And yes I think spawning entities with health pools is a path that should never be gone down again, due to the extreme limitations it puts on developers to balance and make them usable across game modes, but yet here we are. You think we could make that irrelevant if we made the Gyros balanced around being low cooldown, but powerful cannon fodder?

Chaith.8256:

Function Gyro: Gain access to up to 3 non-combative Function Gyros which encircle you. Periodically construct a function Gyro every 60 seconds. Command a Function Gyro to join the fray to finish foes or revive allies. (20s CD).

I like this idea. It also creates visibility for your enemy.

Chaith.8256:

Impact Savant: Deal 4% more damage, and reduce the duration of incoming stuns by 10% for each encircling Function Gyro.

What this accomplishes is creates a system of Gyro management that Scrappers in all game modes would be able to manipulate to their benefit. PvE Scrappers would enjoy great uptime of a 4-12% damage modifier. Non PvE Scrappers would get help from a Function Gyro every 20 seconds if they managed production well, and didn’t deplete resources.

Two things regarding Impact Savant.

First, your suggestion: From my point of view, there are several issues with damage modifiers. Maximum damage will be balanced around them so there is a risk that baseline damage is reduced with this in mind making them (at least feel) mandatory. They’re also pretty bland most of the time and don’t alter your playstyle.

My major issue with this specific suggestion is that it basically means a 12% damage boost in most game scenarios aside from PvP and roaming which you don’t have to make an effort for. That’s bad. I’d rather see less traits like this in the future. And if there are any, it should be a choice which comes with a trade off – meaning a Major – and not a Minor.

Second, the current state of Impact Savant: I really really don’t like it. The additional stun duration is so neglectable. Engineers don’t have too many stuns to begin with. The defensive bonus is even worse when not specifically enhancing it with runes (or food). Protection Injection will probably be way more beneficial in most scenarios which is rather upsetting. The worst part of this skill: There are several Major traits which encourage a playstyle which make it rather useless. Mass Monumentum and Perfectly Weighted and the resulting Stability.

I’d rather see something completely different here which is more fun. Having the amount of Stability in mind Scrappers can get it probably got to be more offensive than defensive. When considering your suggestion for example: ‘Apply 2s of Slow (or Cripple) per active Gyro when stunning, knocking, pulling […] your foe.’ This would also tie in with Expert Examination.

Silinsar.6298:

Concerns / questions:
- 2 new hidden CDs instead of one. Might need an additional UI element to manage gyros.
- Will gyros come back if not killed after finishing/res? If yes, one might want to call them back even before they do because of incoming damage. This would require another key or overload our already multi-purpose interact key even more (with turret pickup and function gyro command it already has 2 more functions than on other professions and even with just turrets there’re conflicts).
- Will they be able to be damaged while circling around you?
- While it’s interesting to manage resources, in a continuing fight with these numbers where you want to res/stomp often, your “gyro-rate” will be 60s instead of 30s while possibly loosing all passive benefit from the traits. As a tanky (primary) melee spec I’d prefer a mechanic that rewards being and staying in the midst of things.

The Function Gyro spawn timer would be visually displayed right on the screen, ideally with a small spark animation as the Gyro appears overhead.

Not able to be damaged when they’re connected to you, essentially, it’d only be you eating the damage.

The production rate of Gyros can be tweaked, when Engaging in a fight fully stocked, you can use 4 Function Gyros on a 20s cooldown before having to wait a minute before hitting the 60 second cooldowns. There’s no link between being melee, this is an intended drawback so that you don’t spam your Function Gyros at every opportunity, or you may, but then have a recuperation phase. The production rate can be lowered from 60s, just number tweaking things.

Xaylin.1860:

Two things regarding Impact Savant.

First, your suggestion: From my point of view, there are several issues with damage modifiers. Maximum damage will be balanced around them so there is a risk that baseline damage is reduced with this in mind making them (at least feel) mandatory. They’re also pretty bland most of the time and don’t alter your playstyle.

My major issue with this specific suggestion is that it basically means a 12% damage boost in most game scenarios aside from PvP and roaming which you don’t have to make an effort for. That’s bad. I’d rather see less traits like this in the future. And if there are any, it should be a choice which comes with a trade off – meaning a Major – and not a Minor.

Second, the current state of Impact Savant: I really really don’t like it. The additional stun duration is so neglectable. Engineers don’t have too many stuns to begin with. The defensive bonus is even worse when not specifically enhancing it with runes (or food). Protection Injection will probably be way more beneficial in most scenarios which is rather upsetting. The worst part of this skill: There are several Major traits which encourage a playstyle which make it rather useless. Mass Monumentum and Perfectly Weighted and the resulting Stability.

I’d rather see something completely different here which is more fun. Having the amount of Stability in mind Scrappers can get it probably got to be more offensive than defensive. When considering your suggestion for example: ‘Apply 2s of Slow (or Cripple) per active Gyro when stunning, knocking, pulling […] your foe.’ This would also tie in with Expert Examination.

Yeah I don’t like Impact Savant in its current form either, but I tried to not re-invent the wheel when putting a carrot in front of people who won’t use Function Gyro to revive and stomp a ton, who’d prefer to trade that for sustained value. It doesn’t have to be pure damage, but it should be universally appealing, IE: not just Gyro users. It could be anything that fills that description, not just damage boosts.

I like your suggestion, people would still think Function Gyro was bad for PvE though

Freaking great idea 5gauge!
We can have new UI bar above our endurance bar – like druid, but cut in 3 places, representing 3Gyros (something like thief’s tripple dodge). I’ve added some non-proffesional picture below ^^

Also to make them not to “easy” to regain, we can increase it’s resummon rate to something like 60 seconds. And adw to second minror trait “Stuning or Dazing enemies, redues your cooldown on Function Gyro”, which will realy fit to Scrapper identity.

I also made post about Gyros themselves. What’s your opinion about it ?
Scrapper – unpolished diamond

First off, this suggestion is way better than what it seems like we are getting, so good job there.

On the subject of %dmg modifiers, I do agree that it might undervalue the stomp/revive mechanic, but that is also partly because said function is not that usefull in the first place.

However I do not like the idea of getting balanced around allways having a 12% dmg buff. Maybe instead of %dmg, we could have one or more of the following:

• % Condi durration increase (helps with vulnerability as well as dmg-condi).
• % Boon durration increase.
• % Movementspeed.
• Regular might/boon stacking.
• Regular vulnerability stacking (Gyros fire weak vuln stacking bolts).

This still does not solve the issue it is still mainly a stomp and rez function. It may offer some buffs now but honestly in my opinion it still would not equal the other class new mechanic. I’d rather have a rework and take time to get it right and equal to others then have a rush patch tossing some buffs onto it and calling it done. It may not be a popular opinion I don’t know but I want a system for scrapper that makes me go wow this is cool. And the current function doesn’t give that. So if they need to overhaul it I’d rather it start now and maybe have to wait till after launch to get a worthy class mechanic.

RunicAura.9860:

This still does not solve the issue it is still mainly a stomp and rez function. It may offer some buffs now but honestly in my opinion it still would not equal the other class new mechanic. I’d rather have a rework and take time to get it right and equal to others then have a rush patch tossing some buffs onto it and calling it done. It may not be a popular opinion I don’t know but I want a system for scrapper that makes me go wow this is cool. And the current function doesn’t give that. So if they need to overhaul it I’d rather it start now and maybe have to wait till after launch to get a worthy class mechanic.

There are definitely a population of people who would rather not have reviving and stomping as the focus of the Function Gyro. I would not be opposed, but I’m going to assume there’s too little time to start from scratch.

Miltek.2104:

Freaking great idea 5gauge!
We can have new UI bar above our endurance bar – like druid, but cut in 3 places, representing 3Gyros (something like thief’s tripple dodge). I’ve added some non-proffesional picture below ^^

A UI change would definitely get that much needed new car smell up in here. I’m for it. But it wouldn’t be absolutely necessary.

Chaith.8256:

Yeah I don’t like Impact Savant in its current form either, but I tried to not re-invent the wheel when putting a carrot in front of people who won’t use Function Gyro to revive and stomp a ton, who’d prefer to trade that for sustained value. It doesn’t have to be pure damage, but it should be universally appealing, IE: not just Gyro users. It could be anything that fills that description, not just damage boosts.

I like your suggestion, people would still think Function Gyro was bad for PvE though

To be fair: The current Impact Savant doesn’t really cater Gyros too much either.
But I get your point.

I think it is more of a design decision at this point. As the traitline is now, I’d say it is not meant to be the preferred traitline for PvE. Yes, HoT might bring content which encourages CC etc. but classic GW2 will most likely not. But I guess the Minors could be indeed a bit more versatile.

Let’s assume that they will sadly not implement your initial suggestion for Function Gyros which would be kitten awesome and just look cool. What could Impact Savant provide which is more meaningful than it’s current state? And what might be universally appealing?

Some other ideas:

• ‘Gain +x% damage for xs when CCing your foe. You also gain x Endurance when hit by CC.’
• ‘When CCing a foe, deal moderate damage to nearby enemies and Cripple them. When hit while CCed, your foes are Slowed for xs.’
• ’Grant x Stacks of Might for xs to nearby allies when CCing a foe. Gain Regeneration when hit while CCed.
• ‘Super Speed applied by you also grants a x% damage bonus. You receive x% less damage while under the effect of Super Speed.’

What if, we add some Funcionality to Function Gyro. Function Gyro uses different ability when you press F on different Target:

• When used on downed ally : Defibrillator – function gyro revives downed ally using built-in defibrilator
• When used on downed enemy: Lethal Injection – function gyro injects toxic elixir into downed enemy, finishing his agony
• When used on living ally(can’t use on self): Energy Shield – function gyro covers target ally with High Voltage energy shield which destroys incomming projectiles, and grants stabilty/protection
• When used on living enemy: X-Ray – function gyro scans target enemy, inflicting Expose. Expose – target takes 7% more damage from any source, inflicted dazes and stun duration increased by 30%
  
  With this kind of change Function Gyro is realy functional and as player we need to decide are we going to save it’s cooldown for stomping/reviving or we gonna use it early to expose enemy or support ally.
  
  Anyway, my biggest fear is that tons of feedback players are leaving on engineer forum to make Scapper “elite” specialization won’t be answeared an we will get only changes in numbers like dmg, cooldown etc.

engineer boss has spoken!

awesome idea.

Chaith.8256:

Nieguen.6235:

First of all, I like the concept to give a better graphical and mechanical identity to the scrapper for the same reasons you presented.

But, basically these little guys will have to deal with damages during the fight, which means we will have the same problem discussed in every posts: gyro = turrets 2.0, and when we see how any auto attack can usually damages 3 targets and how the turrets can be easily destroyed…. I am not sure what is the point having gyros moving around during the fight as you will be in close/melee range.

As always we have the same problem: the health pool of the gyros and turrets. And we will only have an idea of their resistance against damages (which imo will be non existent) when we will test them next BWE.

Maybe the main point of the use of the gyros would be to change the cd duration.

Thanks for the feedback, maybe it wasn’t clear but the suggested re-worked Function Gyros before they are invoked are non-combative, meaning untargetable and dormant, they’d only materialize at the target when used.

And yes I think spawning entities with health pools is a path that should never be gone down again, due to the extreme limitations it puts on developers to balance and make them usable across game modes, but yet here we are. You think we could make that irrelevant if we made the Gyros balanced around being low cooldown, but powerful cannon fodder?

If it is untargetable, it means we will permanently have 12% increase of damages as long as there is no creation of a function gyro to rally or to stomp someone. (I don’t think Anet will let us have this… )

I think the biggest problem we currently have is the health pool for everything, minions, turrets, gyros… Currently as an engi bruiser in sPvP: 3 grenades skills allow to kill the turrets from the elite (and thus the others turrets skills) which is a joke. But, If the health pool is too high we obtain the scenario we had, turrets bunker, no gameplay, kittening easy, and even game breaking. So I think the best would be to increase a little bit the health pool, reduce a lot the CD, increase moderately the damage. (turrets, supply crate, gyros).

If we do not have this, we loose 10 skills easily (I don’t even want to speak about the gadgets), and we “only” gain a hammer and a trait line without superspeed stacking (mesmers’ alacrity stacks no?..).

Edit: I am curious about the capacity of the gyros being able to follow us with speed or super speed. (Disaster in coming imo)

Well …it’s something new , but … still would have same balance issues or well same or new problems aswell in my opinion.

Gyros will be like turrets some will be tested out and then we will see.Probably unchanged ,since healing turret is the best healing for us and the gyros are kind of well they feel sadly like a waste (?).I mean I would really like to use them and i think i would test and play around with them for sure,but so far i think and they will be like turrets.Also in the stream we saw TWO majors problems (!) as support gyros.

They had issues with following + they got busted so quick + They are timebased.Also they counter their own “support” like the stealth gyro.It grant you stealth , but also it lure every AI or enemy straight to you,which will probably more frustating ,then awesome.

What i think we all wanted something “NEW” which could be a option to replace kits .It sounds like many ppls feels “forced” to play with kits and may was hoping for some diffrent mechanic like some ppls was hyping for some “ressources” for building minions.

There will be a beta so we can test it and probably enter the jungle with a few major bugs and maybe just with kits and hammer,which is kinda weird , since utility skills should be more usefull.I mean that’s why WE are using KITS instead of TURRETS right ?

Anyways maybe it will be changed or not.Or some geniuses will find a way to make them usefull to use them.

Also it’s an idea ,which i really like as an engineer.Just those Gyros kind of bother me,since they will be “dumb and useless”as turrets or even worse , since they try to follow you and getting destroyed really easy by those monster out there in the jungle.

Still your idea is nice ,but it would have the same or other problems ,which can’t be balanced like other ppls said.

Chazz.6709:

Well …it’s something new , but … still would have same balance issues or well same or new problems aswell in my opinion.

Gyros will be like turrets some will be tested out and then we will see.Probably unchanged ,since healing turret is the best healing for us and the gyros are kind of well they feel sadly like a waste (?).I mean I would really like to use them and i think i would test and play around with them for sure,but so far i think and they will be like turrets.Also in the stream we saw TWO majors problems (!) as support gyros.

They had issues with following + they got busted so quick + They are timebased.Also they counter their own “support” like the stealth gyro.It grant you stealth , but also it lure every AI or enemy straight to you,which will probably more frustating ,then awesome.

What i think we all wanted something “NEW” which could be a option to replace kits .It sounds like many ppls feels “forced” to play with kits and may was hoping for some diffrent mechanic like some ppls was hyping for some “ressources” for building minions.

There will be a beta so we can test it and probably enter the jungle with a few major bugs and maybe just with kits and hammer,which is kinda weird , since utility skills should be more usefull.I mean that’s why WE are using KITS instead of TURRETS right ?

Anyways maybe it will be changed or not.Or some geniuses will find a way to make them usefull to use them.

Also it’s an idea ,which i really like as an engineer.Just those Gyros kind of bother me,since they will be “dumb and useless”as turrets or even worse , since they try to follow you and getting destroyed really easy by those monster out there in the jungle.

Still your idea is nice ,but it would have the same or other problems ,which can’t be balanced like other ppls said.

Let me save you and those people some trouble:

-Kits will never be replaced, except maybe by other kits
-The class is balanced ENTIRELY around kits. It is extremely hard to balance the class for both kitted and kitless play. It may be possible, but A-Net has failed 3 years running.
-The only hope for a spec that does not still rely on kits is a spec that EXPLICITLY addresses kits (i.e.: gain significant advantages when no kit is equipped + weapon swap)

Keeping the above in mind should keep future unreasonable expectations in check.

Chaith.8256:

What I would suggest is:

Function Gyro: Gain access to up to 3 non-combative (unable to be damaged or targeted) Function Gyros which closely encircle you. Periodically construct a function Gyro every 60 seconds. Command a Function Gyro to join the fray (becoming targetable) to finish foes or revive allies. (20s CD).

Reworking Impact Savant, the last Minor, as well:

Impact Savant: Insert Universally Appealing Effect here, and reduce the duration of incoming stuns by 10% for each encircling Function Gyro.

Ideas for Impact Savant that are based on how many Function Gyros are available:

• Apply Slow when disabling foes
• % Condi durration increase (helps with vulnerability as well as dmg-condi).
• % Boon durration increase.
• % Movementspeed.
• Regular might/boon stacking.
• Regular vulnerability stacking (Gyros fire weak vuln stacking bolts).

Further ideas for a complete change to Impact Savant:

• ‘Gain +x% damage for xs when CCing your foe. You also gain x Endurance when hit by CC.’
• ‘When CCing a foe, deal moderate damage to nearby enemies and Cripple them. When hit while CCed, your foes are Slowed for xs.’
• ’Grant x Stacks of Might for xs to nearby allies when CCing a foe. Gain Regeneration when hit while CCed.
• ‘Super Speed applied by you also grants a x% damage bonus. You receive x% less damage while under the effect of Super Speed.’

I love this idea. I would just like to maybe make it a party wide buff so we have something to give allies. I don’t know if it would be a good way to go, but maybe our GM traits could control how the function gyro operates. 1 condi 1 defense 1 power, similar to how the thieves DD traits went.

I had a similar idea, I don’t know why gyros aren’t a constant scrapper mechanic. When I watched the reveal I was thinking to myself it would make more sense to swap the proposed tool belt skills with their gyro’s so that the scrapper has a unique flavorful difference from a normal engineer. The point of the elite spec is to shake things up and play in a different way then the core spec, replacing tool belt skills with gyros would do that while allow room for skills like kits to be played in more of the utility slots. If this proposed swap happened then the new utility skills can be called something like fields and act exactly how the gyro tool belt skills currently operate(each utility is a different combo field giving engis choas and dark fields too). Think of how Glamours work for the mesmer and you will have a ingame solution that is similar. Your idea is in line with that mode of thinking as your engineer would become more mesmer like(clones=gyros), like how guardians become more ranger like. You can even have some kind of recharge mechanic for the gyros every time they entire a combo field to encourage scrappers to always position to their fields.

Great ideas here but release is sadly too close now.

This is a great idea. It actually feels well thought-out and thorough, unlike the current f gyro mechanic. This game is about trade-offs, and a mechanic like this really meshes with that approach well. Could also open potential for other traits to interact with it, too. Like the hammer trait could scale a CD reduction off of your number of current drones.

Please do this Irenio.

Please do this Irenio.

Chaith.8256:

In my opinion, the Function Gyros need to be strong pillar for the mechanical identity of the Scrapper, what really sets apart a Scrapper from an Engineer. This is the class mechanic we get from the first minor trait, a parallel to Reaper’s Shroud, Celestial Avatar, Overload Attunement, Continuum Split, Dragonhunter Virtues, Facet of Nature, Primal Bursts.

Other than the Scrapper, only the Daredevil’s third dodge bar doesn’t really alter the profession mechanics significantly from the core profession.

This I agree with. Engineers didn’t really get a mechanic like other eite specs. Function Gyro is not finished or game changing. The biggest thing Scrapper gets is rapid regeneration, but Scrapper cannot apply swiftness to themselves using Scrapper skills. Synergy with other trait lines should not be required and right now it is.

I don’t like the Elite mechanic idea. I dunno it just sounds sort of clunky. After rereading I agree with your trait feedback. If scrapper is melee then they need more of a warrior style trait passivity bump which your feedback addresses.

We are agreed on the most important thing though. Scrapper did not get a true Elite Specializaion mechanic which changes the way they play. And the next BWE will help validate this. I won’t pretend to know what that is. But we all agree that Scrapper needs to be better.
Edit: reread and tweaked for clarity. Changed mind about scrapper traits. OP has good ideas with the traits. Upvoted.

Great ideas Chaith, awesome feedback as always <3
I pretty much agree on the whole OP

Chaith,

I like the ideas, even if I think some of the numbers may need to be adjusted a bit. However, I would be very, very, very, very surprised if we see any changes as drastic as that this close to HoT’s launch (especially considering how much work still is being done on the Druid, who is being designed by the same guy for scrapper). I expect a few cooldown and damage number adjustments is the most we’ll see before launch, regardless of player feedback. =/

Dahkeus.8243:

Chaith,

I like the ideas, even if I think some of the numbers may need to be adjusted a bit. However, I would be very, very, very, very surprised if we see any changes as drastic as that this close to HoT’s launch (especially considering how much work still is being done on the Druid, who is being designed by the same guy for scrapper). I expect a few cooldown and damage number adjustments is the most we’ll see before launch, regardless of player feedback. =/

That all depends on what’s priority. How much work is left to be done on Druid? How long a development cycle would it take to change Function Gyro?

These things are uncertain, there’s only harm in remaining silent.

I think it’s going to be a really sad day when I’m playing Celestial Scrapper Rifle and nobody can tell I’m not an Engineer

Now the idea have been discused, I think I can add some ideas of my own.

1- First i’m going to say what I think the essence of Chaith mechanic is:
“To accumulate visible, automatically created, not-AI gyros, that the Scrapper needs to administrate correctly to gain passive bonus or to execute remote functions.”

2- Some ideas:
a- I know the passive bonus is not the most beloved mechanic in the game, but I think it is easier to implement than most, and of course is much, much better than any AI. The bonus doesn’t have to be pure damage, either. It could be damage, protection, swiftness, regen, etc. The point is to have something that make the fGyros desirable and relevant all the time.

b- I think the gyros should be damageable, to give counterplay and to force the Scrapper to keep an eye on them. But while they orbit around the Scrapper, they only should be damaged by damaging the Scrapper: tank as you might be, you still have to evade attacks and fight clever, because you want to keep your Gyros alive. This could be done by giving the Gyros a percent of the damage received by their owner. The gyros should also be damaged in secuential order, not all at the same time.

c- An UI similar to the one Miltek propose could be used to allow the player to keep track of their f-gyros status without cluttering the screen.

d- A couple of traits could be destined to fine tune and enhance the bonus the gyros give, and the gyro’s healt.

e- IMO, a lot of the new mechanics of the other specs doesn’t have a real trade off. They make the proffession better with no drawback, simply adding without taking anything. If this mechanic could be that way, It would be great.
However, If there need to be a tradeoff, I think, like others here, it should have to be related to the toolbelt.

f- Rez and Stomp aren’t enough. At least the activation of doors, consoles and chests should be added to the f-gyro.

3- What I Imagine:
The Scrapper has access to up to 5 f-gyros, which spawns at a rythm of 1 every 60 secs and float around him as visual effect, non targetable and non-AI objects.

By default, they give the Scrapper 3 passive effects:
- Panopticon Assistance: A cumulative bonus (2% dmg each, and/or 7% speed each, and/or 1 stack of superspeed each, etc.)% could be bigger if traited.
- Gestalt Field: Extra health, represented by a bar with 5 sections, one for each f-gyro. This bar absorbs a % of the damage the Scrapper receive(33%, maybe?), and the Gyros die when their respective section is wiped. More health per gyro if traited.
- Platform Exertion: Cumulative drawback of -5% toolbelt recharge per f-gyro. This should be used only if a tradeoff for the spec mechanic is really needed, but could add some interesting administration play when you need the toolbelt skills asap. If traited, convert the minus into a boon only for the gyro family toolbelt skills.

There is also the active effect:
When activated, the f-gyro leaves the Scrapper and become an AI targetable object, taking with it what health is left in the last section of the Scrapper’s Gestalt Field, and eliminating all its respective boons and drawbacks. It can activate some of the contextual f functions within a radius, ingluding rez, stomp and some devices (doors, consoles, etc). The effect radius and speed of the gyro grow if traited.

Chaith.8256:

Dahkeus.8243:

Chaith,

I like the ideas, even if I think some of the numbers may need to be adjusted a bit. However, I would be very, very, very, very surprised if we see any changes as drastic as that this close to HoT’s launch (especially considering how much work still is being done on the Druid, who is being designed by the same guy for scrapper). I expect a few cooldown and damage number adjustments is the most we’ll see before launch, regardless of player feedback. =/

That all depends on what’s priority. How much work is left to be done on Druid? How long a development cycle would it take to change Function Gyro?

These things are uncertain, there’s only harm in remaining silent.

I think it’s going to be a really sad day when I’m playing Celestial Scrapper Rifle and nobody can tell I’m not an Engineer

Yea, I’ll agree with that. Having a few gyros flying around your head would go a long way in making the scrapper look and feel unique over a regular engineer. I really hope I’m wrong and I really hope that we see some changes along what you’ve proposed.

I wholeheartedly agree with the goal, we need to be more than ‘an engi who may or may not use a hammer’, and new trait ideas are really cool.

I love the idea of managing f-gyros as well, but for this to work, I still think the active portion of them should be expanded/changed first. The decision between using F-gyros and keeping them should be an interesting trade off, and for that to be the case, you need to give everyone at least one compelling reason to spend f-gyros.

Passive benefits for not using the f-gyros solves the issue of them being less useful for some(mainly pve players) by essentially turning them into permanent passive buffs. Permanent passive buffs as a class mechanic still does not solve the issue of scrappers not actually interacting with the new class mechanic and changing the way they play. (It’d also be a balancing nightmare :p)

If the active portion of F-gyro was something more universally appealing and can be constantly utilized, I think your idea would work wonderfully.

Random idea :

Maybe you can make passive effects only trigger on a certain condition, and when they are triggered, you expend a gyro. The more often you trigger this, the less potency the subsequent effects will have, and eventually not trigger at all. The obvious downside to this idea is that, depending on the trigger condition, you might be unintentionally spending gyros. Trigger conditions, therefore, should be carefully picked.
Also, rather than implementing the passive effect into a minor trait, what if we could customize them? It could be something like a ranger pet UI or Daredevil GM traits.

Examples :
-Disabling an enemy weakens and damages nearby foes. Radius and damage based on number of gyros.
-Immobilizing an enemy stuns them. Duration based on number of gyros.
-Healing skills used when above 50% health creates a chain lightning, dazing foes. Number of targets based on number of gyros.
-Blocking gives you mobile Ice field. Ice field itself chills enemies at creation, but have no further effect. Field duration based on number of gyros.
-Blocking gives you mobile Lightning field. Lightning field pulses heavy vulnerability on short duration. Field duration based on number of gyros.
-Incoming CC creates a Static Field(Ele Staff Air #4). Duration based on number of gyros, lose all gyros afterwards.
-When taking lethal damage, become invulnerable and lose all conditions instead. Only activates when you have 3 gyros, lose all gyros afterwards.

Random thought : I think ranged res/stomp bot is an idea better suited as a utility or a toolbelt skill.

Random regret : It’s probably too late for a big change. Welp, it’s still fun to imagine.

The gyros would need to be damageable when they left the engineer, a stomp without counterplay is too strong.

You could have the gyros equivalent to hp, each 25% is a gyro, as you break down the engineer their gyros break as well; either the gyros function as a passive damage reduction absorbing some damage that would harm the engineer or it has a separate hp bar and can pick up heals from the engineer if there aren’t allies taking priority or it doesn’t have an hp bar until it leaves the engineer.

SlyDevil.3952:

The gyros would need to be damageable when they left the engineer, a stomp without counterplay is too strong.

Yeah. That’s the idea!

Given how close we are to release, and with an eye towards the idea that minimising the amount of additional work/passes required to implement would help these changes get accepted, I’d suggest:

- Instead of circling gyros, which require an art/engine pass, simply display a buff with the number of gyros ready for use. Buff is visible to enemy as all other buffs are. Simple and doesn’t require anything beyond icon art.
- When the F key is used to deploy a function gyro, simply deduct one from the buff and spawn it into the game world, using the current code to implement the rest of the actual “flying over and picking someone up” bit.

I think a simple 10 seconds cool down on the traited gyros will have the same effect. Just blow up the first one when a second one is summoned. 30 seconds is a bit punishing if the stars aren’t aligned.

I think the main probem for the team is to determine exactly wich passive buff could these “inactive” Gyros give.

Ardid.7203:

I think the main probem for the team is to determine exactly wich passive buff could these “inactive” Gyros give.

I would say what would take the longest is creating an animation or UI change when an Engineer becomes a Scrapper.

And just generally, I’m still extremely adamant that Scrapper should have some persistent class mechanic change. Function Gyro is circumstantial and not persistent, and this is creating a severe identity problem. Even if this happens post-expansion we still need to start being heard on this.. so thanks for all your comments, guys. I encourage anyone who’s underwhelmed by the style of Function Gyro as a class defining mechanic to post.

Chaith.8256:

I posted a suggestion in Irenio’s Scrapper discussion thread, and a couple people wanted me to re-post in my own thread, so here we are.

The goal I had in mind when I set out were to build towards a more robust Scrapper identity, aesthetically as well as mechanically. A secondary goal was to widen the usefulness of Scrapper mechanics across more game modes.

In my opinion, the Function Gyros need to be strong pillar for the mechanical identity of the Scrapper, what really sets apart a Scrapper from an Engineer. This is the class mechanic we get from the first minor trait, a parallel to Reaper’s Shroud, Celestial Avatar, Overload Attunement, Continuum Split, Dragonhunter Virtues, Facet of Nature, Primal Bursts.

Other than the Scrapper, only the Daredevil’s third dodge bar doesn’t really alter the profession mechanics significantly from the core profession.

Currently, the Scrapper defining minor trait reads this: “You gain access to the Function Gyro, which can finish a foe or revive an ally at range.”

What I would suggest is:

Function Gyro: Gain access to up to 3 non-combative (unable to be damaged or targeted) Function Gyros which closely encircle you. Periodically construct a function Gyro every 60 seconds. Command a Function Gyro to join the fray (becoming targetable) to finish foes or revive allies. (20s CD).

Reworking Impact Savant, the last Minor, as well:

Impact Savant: Insert Universally Appealing Effect here, and reduce the duration of incoming stuns by 10% for each encircling Function Gyro.

Player suggestions ITT for Impact Savant that are based on how many Function Gyros are available:

• Apply Slow when disabling foes
• % Condi durration increase (helps with vulnerability as well as dmg-condi).
• % Boon durration increase.
• % Movementspeed.
• Regular might/boon stacking.
• Regular vulnerability stacking (Gyros fire weak vuln stacking bolts).

Further ideas, player suggestions ITT – for a complete change to Impact Savant:

• ‘Gain +x% damage for xs when CCing your foe. You also gain x Endurance when hit by CC.’
• ‘When CCing a foe, deal moderate damage to nearby enemies and Cripple them. When hit while CCed, your foes are Slowed for xs.’
• ’Grant x Stacks of Might for xs to nearby allies when CCing a foe. Gain Regeneration when hit while CCed.
• ‘Super Speed applied by you also grants a x% damage bonus. You receive x% less damage while under the effect of Super Speed.’

What this accomplishes is creates a system of Gyro management that Scrappers in all game modes would be able to manipulate to their benefit. With infrequent use of the Function Gyros, Scrappers would benefit from Impact Savant’s effect per idle Function Gyro. Frequent use of help from a Function Gyro every 20 seconds will be possible in spurts, if they managed production well, and didn’t deplete resources.

Best of all, it’d be a constantly present theme that adds a bit more substance to the Scrapper’s core class mechanic, keeping it closer to the same feel players had when watching the Scrapper in the HoT trailer, visually, with Gyros always at their command. In my opinion the profession mechanics should be solid, whether the utility skills are used or not.

I’d like to hear feedback as well as suggestions on how to re-work the utility based Gyros away from the impending turret-state and, for example, into more unique and short-lived Gyro based attacks, rather than autonomous A.I with independent health pools. (Not to put ideas in your head!)

Thanks for reading

I would like to see the gyros completely reworked or even removed in favor of not pet based abilities. As I play WVW they will be completely useless to me outside of roaming for which I have much better options then the scrapper presents due to pet issues / pet death.

I also see this as an issue in large scale PVE encounters with lots of AOE damage as well as even some dungeon runs / bosses.

Anything pet based where the pet dies to AOE mechanics for whatever reasons (poor AI, too low health, server ability lag or whatever else) is a waste of ability slots and/or traits.

I also do not understand why the devs have taken this route in light of proven fail history in this aspect of the game with things such as necro minions, mesmer clones and ranger pets for starters. They are setting themselves up for same fail due to same reasons altogether.

Thus I can not support any changes whatsoever consuming any manhours whatsoever unless they address the above issues.

OP you outline a bunch of changes to pet functionality but your pet is dead and on CD most of the time when it needs to be available thus negating both current implimentation as well as any ideas to make these pets more useful.

Make these pets being able to survive map que vs map que vs map que battles in WVW first, then change their abilities so that they actually function with and under the effects of skill lag, meaning they involve much less instead of more calculations and operate in a simpler manner. Only AFTER this start looking at individual functionality and what to do with it.

Tongku.5326:

Chaith.8256:

I posted a suggestion in Irenio’s Scrapper discussion thread, and a couple people wanted me to re-post in my own thread, so here we are.

The goal I had in mind when I set out were to build towards a more robust Scrapper identity, aesthetically as well as mechanically. A secondary goal was to widen the usefulness of Scrapper mechanics across more game modes.

In my opinion, the Function Gyros need to be strong pillar for the mechanical identity of the Scrapper, what really sets apart a Scrapper from an Engineer. This is the class mechanic we get from the first minor trait, a parallel to Reaper’s Shroud, Celestial Avatar, Overload Attunement, Continuum Split, Dragonhunter Virtues, Facet of Nature, Primal Bursts.

Other than the Scrapper, only the Daredevil’s third dodge bar doesn’t really alter the profession mechanics significantly from the core profession.

Currently, the Scrapper defining minor trait reads this: “You gain access to the Function Gyro, which can finish a foe or revive an ally at range.”

What I would suggest is:

Function Gyro: Gain access to up to 3 non-combative (unable to be damaged or targeted) Function Gyros which closely encircle you. Periodically construct a function Gyro every 60 seconds. Command a Function Gyro to join the fray (becoming targetable) to finish foes or revive allies. (20s CD).

Reworking Impact Savant, the last Minor, as well:

Impact Savant: Insert Universally Appealing Effect here, and reduce the duration of incoming stuns by 10% for each encircling Function Gyro.

Player suggestions ITT for Impact Savant that are based on how many Function Gyros are available:

• Apply Slow when disabling foes
• % Condi durration increase (helps with vulnerability as well as dmg-condi).
• % Boon durration increase.
• % Movementspeed.
• Regular might/boon stacking.
• Regular vulnerability stacking (Gyros fire weak vuln stacking bolts).

Further ideas, player suggestions ITT – for a complete change to Impact Savant:

• ‘Gain +x% damage for xs when CCing your foe. You also gain x Endurance when hit by CC.’
• ‘When CCing a foe, deal moderate damage to nearby enemies and Cripple them. When hit while CCed, your foes are Slowed for xs.’
• ’Grant x Stacks of Might for xs to nearby allies when CCing a foe. Gain Regeneration when hit while CCed.
• ‘Super Speed applied by you also grants a x% damage bonus. You receive x% less damage while under the effect of Super Speed.’

What this accomplishes is creates a system of Gyro management that Scrappers in all game modes would be able to manipulate to their benefit. With infrequent use of the Function Gyros, Scrappers would benefit from Impact Savant’s effect per idle Function Gyro. Frequent use of help from a Function Gyro every 20 seconds will be possible in spurts, if they managed production well, and didn’t deplete resources.

Best of all, it’d be a constantly present theme that adds a bit more substance to the Scrapper’s core class mechanic, keeping it closer to the same feel players had when watching the Scrapper in the HoT trailer, visually, with Gyros always at their command. In my opinion the profession mechanics should be solid, whether the utility skills are used or not.

I’d like to hear feedback as well as suggestions on how to re-work the utility based Gyros away from the impending turret-state and, for example, into more unique and short-lived Gyro based attacks, rather than autonomous A.I with independent health pools. (Not to put ideas in your head!)

Thanks for reading

I would like to see the gyros completely reworked or even removed in favor of not pet based abilities. As I play WVW they will be completely useless to me outside of roaming for which I have much better options then the scrapper presents due to pet issues / pet death.

I also see this as an issue in large scale PVE encounters with lots of AOE damage as well as even some dungeon runs / bosses.

Anything pet based where the pet dies to AOE mechanics for whatever reasons (poor AI, too low health, server ability lag or whatever else) is a waste of ability slots and/or traits.

I also do not understand why the devs have taken this route in light of proven fail history in this aspect of the game with things such as necro minions, mesmer clones and ranger pets for starters. They are setting themselves up for same fail due to same reasons altogether.

Thus I can not support any changes whatsoever consuming any manhours whatsoever unless they address the above issues.

OP you outline a bunch of changes to pet functionality but your pet is dead and on CD most of the time when it needs to be available thus negating both current implimentation as well as any ideas to make these pets more useful.

Make these pets being able to survive map que vs map que vs map que battles in WVW first, then change their abilities so that they actually function with and under the effects of skill lag, meaning they involve much less instead of more calculations and operate in a simpler manner. Only AFTER this start looking at individual functionality and what to do with it.

Since completely replacing Gyros from square one is off the table, if you look at my suggestion, it provides a path for people who play in game modes that are inhospitable for A.I, they can instead reap passive benefits instead, without involving A.I.

its not like anet is gonna suddenly realize…

Oh how could we have been so wrong! [[ICH rips off his spectacles in dramatic fashion]] But theres still time to save the scrapper, to the bat cave!

Ive heard a lot of excited talk from ppl who’ve nvr played engi before and wanna give it a try. Then the long time engi players saying; isnt this kinda bad?

It seems to me engi is probably the least played of all the classes and these changes might be intended to draw in multiclass players. Which means, the reason they will nvr rework the elite spec is because establishing an identity is not important if you nvr played it at all. Can you rly say Revenant herald line is all that different?

The ops request is solid, but we are just not the target audience here.

Following up on the OP idea I would like to add my own spin / suggestions for the rework of the minor traits.

Function Gyro – As described by OP – Gain Access to a maximum of three (3) non-combative function gyros which encircle the player. These gyros do nothing whilst in-active and as a result have no hit-boxes until activated. My Variant – Press F6 to instantly activate all in-active gyros, reducing incoming dmg by 10% for each function gyro that is struck OR reducing pierce / cleave totals by -1 for each gyro struck. Skill up-time is five (5) seconds. A gyro respawns every thirty (30) seconds.

N.B. The reducing pierce / cleave totals variation allows a struck function gyro to effectively take two hits for the team / scrapper. If three 3 function gyros are activated then these Gyros tank for 6 targets making the scrapper immune to damage from 5 target skills. Also these effects only last for as long as each Function Gyro is not destroyed and or the duration up-time is still active. As a result it is probably best to make this a stacking effect unique to the Scrapper.

The total number of inactive Gyros a scrapper has can be indicated by a status effect / buff icon in grey with a gyro symbol and a count beside it. Active Gyros can have another similar Symbol but green and also be accompanied by a number count.

Decisive Renown – Gain access to the ability to finish foes / revive allies. Send an inactive gyro to finish a foe or revive an ally. If you successfully revive an ally or finish a foe, gain the current pay-out for this minor trait.

Chemical Romance – When you use Function Gyro (F6 key), break stun and for count times a Gyro (function Gyro and all other Gyros) is struck by your opponent(s) in one second for the duration of the F6 ability you apply the following conditions:
1 strike – 1 stack of bleeding for 6 seconds
2 strikes – 3s of cripple
3 strikes – 5s of weakness
4 strikes – 7s of poison
5 strikes – 3s of chill
6 strikes – 8s of vulnerability
7 strikes – 5s of two stacks of confusion
8 strikes – 5s of two stacks of burning
9 strikes – 5s of two stacks of torment
10 strikes – 2s of immobilize

Reset count every 1s such that the application of conditions is restarted from 1 strike for the next 1s period until the end of the F6’s duration.

While F6 is still active the Scrapper can press F6 again to Daze(1s) nearby opponents b times. Where b is equal to the number of active Function Gyros at the time. Destroy all active Function Gyros.

As a result of these changes buff hammer no. 5’s stun duration to 1.25s base-line.

Feedback is welcome

I support Chaith’s idea as many other people as you can see from the nice thumbs-up icon next to the +1 button.

It would be a shame if such well-crafted post got buried in the forum without developers having time to read it. I hope it will stay on 1st page until we get some confirmation that post was read and processed by the Right People™.

Yea, I agree. Don’t want this thread buried.

After playing Scrapper, I can tell you that Chaith’s idea here is exactly what the class needs. Let’s make sure this gets some traction!

Agreed. Lets make this happen.

Irenio, have you seen this thread?

I quite like your idea, but the suggestion I would make is for “inactive” gyros to, instead of providing more damage, to provide more toughness.
With this spec, engineer was invited to join the frontlines with warrior and guardian but he doesn’t have the heavy armor of them or the “extra health” bar of a reaper.
So, if the inactive gyros provide toughness, it’s like they are completing the engineer armor with additional mitigation.
Other than that I would imagine that the gyro generation should be more like 1/30 sec, otherwise we will be too constrained to not using gyros because if we use them all we can stay a whole minute without any Utility skills.
Also I liked the idea of a “gyro regen” bar like the dodge bar. Easier to control our resource and always use the gyro when we are about to get a new one .

Great idea ! Hope my suggestion seems reasonable.

I like the Op idea but i will go with something easier to implement.
My sugestion:

When you equip the scrapper elite trrait line ,a function gyro will deploy and circle around the scrapper,it can not be targeted or damaged until is not commanded to stomp or res,once it has done his job or its destroyed in the process it will go on a 10sec(?) cooldown before automaticaly redeploying it self around the scrapper.

This function gyro functnionality(:P) can be expanded via traits.
New 3 traits to replace the existing adept traits that are a little bland :

- Function cleansing : the function gyro peroidically removes conditions from you,when it explodes gives regeneration.

- Function velocity : recive a 25 % increase speed while function gyro is active,when it explodes gives swiftnes.

- Function empowerment : gain a 2% bonus damge for boon on you,when it explodes gives 3 stacks of might.

I think this is a simplier way to ad some functionality to a rather bland mechanic.

Have to admit that when they announced that we get a Funcion Gyro that we activate with our “F” key, I immediately thought that a gyro would replace most of our interactions like spawning a gyro to:

- havrest nodes
- interact with NPC (like opening your bank form 1200 range)
- pick up bundles and carry around us
- even use objectives like channeling buffs on silent storm or using sieges

All that giving the feeling that engineer advanced in his technology so much that now he has hes gyros to do the mundane work for him.

And then they said that the gyro is only for stomping and ressing… Like it feels that there was a grander idea with them but they had to cut it to be usefull in only one gamemode due to time.

I’d like to sugest 2 things for the core engineer and scrapper.

1) Could we swap Sharpnell (Adding pistol auto is considered as an explosion.) to the Firearms trait line for the Incendary powder into explosives ?

This will leave meta builds untouched. It will open up more possibilities for flamethrower & bombs , wich are underused kits. Bomb will benefit from having both of it’s essenial traits in one trait line ,
whyle flame thrower can be combined with jug + IP. It also will help hybrid builds (cele riffle , etc …) not forcing them into 2 offencive trait lines. (at the moment they deal less damage and are less survivable than the marauder builds)

2) Adrenal implant making this trait into vigor regen 100% faster endurence and vigor last longer by x%.

Right now this trait doesn’t combine it self with vigor and that trait line gives you a good chunk of vigor wich make the trait a bit obsolete. Changing it will also make invigorating speed + stream linded a good trait combo (right now 90% of pvp player will take the protection injection since vigor has been nerfed from 100% to 50% )and this could open more trait diversity.

3) Scrapper :

The rocket charge is clunky right now , the Block doesn’t block CC , the gyros are to slow , targetable and some of them are realy useless. (the stealth gyro sometime chase the enemy player instead of staying next to the engi).

I think reworking Scrapper gyros is something that needs to happen.

I’d like having untargetable giros gravitating around you (The gyro you take in utility slots + the core one.) giving you smal bonuses passively (like signets). And having a Fuel ressource than regen slowly (like an energy bar) but drains each time you activates the gyro during the active mode the gyro would be targetable during that time and give a strong effect (you can recal them , if they get destroyed you lose extra fuel.)

Controversially, I think the player-orbiting gyros should be those from utility skills. I’ve posted it elsewhere but in essence they should orbit (agree as untargettable) the player and have an active ability to send them somewhere via ground-based targetting (becoming targettable and destructible).

The function gyro itself I don’t really have much issue with except its current bugginess and limitation to players which seems a bit unnecessary. Yeah its not as mechanically complex as Continuum Split or Berserk Mode, but at least its not another dodge bar! Like Dentrius above I’d thought it would be cool for harvesting for QoL. Do we really need more UI elements… or are we adding complexity for the sake of complexity?

My biggest issues with Scrapper are the Rocket Charge, and gyro AI. A bit of synergy would be amazing, if they gave the Purge Gyro an Elixir subtype and Blast Gyro made into an explosion etc.