Guild Wars 2

I hate to say this, but if you think the hit points on gyros is bad, you might as well either get over it or just plan to not use it.

After all, here is a list of things that have hit points in the game that aren’t changing either: turrets, minions, pets, illusions. Save summons, elemental summons, spirit weapons. I may have missed something, but you get the point.

So you might as well get used to the gyros having hit points. If you think they are weak, focus on other aspects to improve them. Perhaps more hit points. Perhaps some kind of effect when they die. Something. but the hit points are almost certainly not going to go away.

Frankly, I thought it would be fun to actually tie in something with their fuel. When they get summoned, their fuel is an actual gauge that determines perhaps how much burning people in an area suffer when it’s destroyed. In other words, when they’re destroyed, they splash of fuel on all enemies around them, and set them on fire, the more fuel they had, the more burning they suffer. Or something like that.

But I feel fairly confident in saying that hit points are here to stay. Let’s find a suggestion that make them work within that frame of reference.

That there are hit points isn’t the problem to be honest… it’s just the amount of hit points that is a problem…

Making them invunerable to damage would be lame, not even fun to play with (or against) them, 0 counterplay possiblities… Sad that alot of people don’t see that..

MrTJpwnz.4710:

That there are hit points isn’t the problem to be honest… it’s just the amount of hit points that is a problem…

Making them invunerable to damage would be lame, not even fun to play with (or against) them, 0 counterplay possiblities… Sad that alot of people don’t see that..

I agree. The problem is, do we really know what the gyro hit points is based on stats? I assume it scales with the players stats.

what we should do I think is check the stats on exotic armor for Celestial, Berserker, and, I don’t know, maybe Knight’s or Nomads or something.

Here is the reason why I think this is important. If their stats scale the way illusions do for mesmers, then it makes a big difference in their survivability based on what gear you use. For instance, a Bulwark Gyro may be far better for Sentinel gear than for Berserker.

I guess this all comes back to the zerker mentality. So many people look at zerker as the meta and then say “pDefender sucks!” Well, yes, when it adopts its own stats off yours, and its a fully defensive phantasm, and you GAVE it crappy vitality, don’t be surprised.

If you go beyond fully offensive gear and stats, then that might well change things.

They work like guardian SW, theres a moment in the video where the gyro runs into the midle of the golems, now imagine that in a fight with players…

Healing gyro as a smaller aera and checks if players is on that area.

Aeolus.3615:

They work like guardian SW, theres a moment in the video where the gyro runs into the midle of the golems, now imagine that in a fight with players…

Healing gyro as a smaller aera and checks if players is on that area.

Some of those gyros are targettable. I don’t recall the video well enough to say for sure, so I’ll have to go watch it again if they have it up on youtube, but if the player targeted a group, that would be the player’s fault.

Morfedel.4165:

MrTJpwnz.4710:

That there are hit points isn’t the problem to be honest… it’s just the amount of hit points that is a problem…

Making them invunerable to damage would be lame, not even fun to play with (or against) them, 0 counterplay possiblities… Sad that alot of people don’t see that..

I agree. The problem is, do we really know what the gyro hit points is based on stats? I assume it scales with the players stats.

what we should do I think is check the stats on exotic armor for Celestial, Berserker, and, I don’t know, maybe Knight’s or Nomads or something.

Here is the reason why I think this is important. If their stats scale the way illusions do for mesmers, then it makes a big difference in their survivability based on what gear you use. For instance, a Bulwark Gyro may be far better for Sentinel gear than for Berserker.

I guess this all comes back to the zerker mentality. So many people look at zerker as the meta and then say “pDefender sucks!” Well, yes, when it adopts its own stats off yours, and its a fully defensive phantasm, and you GAVE it crappy vitality, don’t be surprised.

If you go beyond fully offensive gear and stats, then that might well change things.

It would make alot of sense if it worked that way, but then still I think the health pool needs to be increased a bit..

Morfedel.4165:

I After all, here is a list of things that have hit points in the game that aren’t changing either: turrets, minions, pets, illusions. Save summons, elemental summons, spirit weapons. I may have missed something, but you get the point.

For contrast, here’s a list of summoned things that don’t have hit points.

Ventari Tablet: Revenant
Banners: Warrior
Conjure Weapons: Elementalist

Chaba.5410:

Morfedel.4165:

I After all, here is a list of things that have hit points in the game that aren’t changing either: turrets, minions, pets, illusions. Save summons, elemental summons, spirit weapons. I may have missed something, but you get the point.

For contrast, here’s a list of summoned things that don’t have hit points.

Ventari Tablet: Revenant
Banners: Warrior
Conjure Weapons: Elementalist

All three of which cannot perform actions on their own. Ventari’s tablet has to be actively controlled, weapons have to be equipped and replace skills, and banners just… sit there.

I second that ‘having HPs’ = ‘being destroyable’ itself is not the problem. Engineer community is still suffering from a sort of PTSD from the dreaded Turret Obliteration Patch™, when turrets were overnerfed and became basically a dead branch.

Now the gyro announcement brings all that back and the engi community goes up like a soda-mentos bomb.
“Oh Noes, it’s Wolf 359 all over again!1eleven”

Then again, who cares, we’re only using kits and elixirs anyway, don’t we?

MrTJpwnz.4710:

Making them invunerable to damage would be lame, not even fun to play with (or against) them, 0 counterplay possiblities… Sad that alot of people don’t see that..

Just because they can’t take damage doesn’t mean there are 0 counter play. Non-minion abilities can’t be completly shut down by damage, but most of them have tons of counter play. Even if the gyros could only be CCed or soft CCed, they would have more counterplay than all other non-minion skills. Also, 4 of the gyros are utility or support based, they don’t need as much counterplay as something offensive.

Are.1326:

MrTJpwnz.4710:

Making them invunerable to damage would be lame, not even fun to play with (or against) them, 0 counterplay possiblities… Sad that alot of people don’t see that..

Just because they can’t take damage doesn’t mean there are 0 counter play. Non-minion abilities can’t be completly shut down by damage, but most of them have tons of counter play. Even if the gyros could only be CCed or soft CCed, they would have more counterplay than all other non-minion skills. Also, 4 of the gyros are utility or support based, they don’t need as much counterplay as something offensive.

Well I don’t see it so how about give some examples if a gyro is invunerable to everything how to counterplay it…

Are.1326:

MrTJpwnz.4710:

Making them invunerable to damage would be lame, not even fun to play with (or against) them, 0 counterplay possiblities… Sad that alot of people don’t see that..

Just because they can’t take damage doesn’t mean there are 0 counter play. Non-minion abilities can’t be completly shut down by damage, but most of them have tons of counter play. Even if the gyros could only be CCed or soft CCed, they would have more counterplay than all other non-minion skills. Also, 4 of the gyros are utility or support based, they don’t need as much counterplay as something offensive.

I think so too, they most of them are just passive pulsing effects in a small area.

And we all know it is ok to have skills, which doesn’t fit in a specific environment. All professions got skills like this. But the problem is, engineer already has less skill categories than all other professions and now the new skill category has the same downsides like an actually existing.

This means 2 of 5 skill categories are near to useless in an AoE heavy area now. 40% of the skills are useless, if you have to mitigate damage with active defenses (which they don’t have).

Availability of soft and hard counters is just fine, but seeing two entire skill categories (turrets & gyros) hard-countered by one Mirror Blade is slightly beyond the necessary.

don’t forget gyros shares the engineers boons, it was said more then once, that should help

Morfedel.4165:

Ventari’s tablet has to be actively controlled

With an energy upkeep mechanic, which is what Gyros should have been for a melee-based playstyle instead of handing us the same thing we already got with turrets.

Plok.5873:

Engineer community is still suffering from a sort of PTSD from the dreaded Turret Obliteration Patch™, when turrets were overnerfed and became basically a dead branch.

What? Hey now some of us were experimenting with turrets in WvW at launch before the buffs they received. And still after those buffs they were not viable for any sort of melee playstyle in WvW. The only thing they were good for was the knockback from Accelerant-Packed Turrets, a “pop and destroy” playstyle that renders any boon or other advantage they gave a complete waste of coding. It’ll be the same with Gyros.

Any PTSD I’m suffering from with regards to turrets comes from three years of them, only to be handed a future of the same thing repackaged as mobile turrets.

I have seen turret based engineers do a very credible job of holding points against other teams capturing them in PvP. My engineer isn’t my main but it is one of the two secondaries that I play quite a bit when I’m burnt out on my Mesmer. And I always thought they did a pretty decent job if played correctly.

That being the case however, I will admit that as I said it isn’t my main. So I can be corrected. It’s just, like I said I’ve seen turret engineers do pretty well at least in PvP

^ Yea.. thats what i fear the gyros gonna be turned into… mobile stun dispensers rather then active helpers to the scrapper and the group. Well sure…to nuke em is how the gyro do, but its a shame that it most likely gonna be like with the HT. QUICKLY nuke it or pick it up again before it gets destroyed and wait for CD. Sure.. thats its job but the gyros are obviosly from their abilities designed to be on the battlefield for a while. One heals a little, one removes condi…slowly but it does remove it, the next tanks for you, the other one is a constant whirl finisher dispenser…these things are MEANT to be active longer then 5 seconds…so they need to survive…specially with a cooldown of 30 seconds (cept blast with 25).

My idea to get this stuff fixed would be:

-A base health of 10k for all cept bulwark and blast, bulwark gets 20k and regen and blast stays how it is…cause its afterall meant to suicide and does actual harm so it needs counterplay.

- Cooldown starts THE MOMENT the gyro gets put on the field and not after its
and not after its destruction except for sneak.. cause it sure is powerfull with its
30 second stealth

- If the gyros actually share the boons with the scrapper they also should share a part of his heal..like 70%.

-If the scrapper dodges the gyros do too or get an evade with the same time span as a
normal dodge roll is with an ICD of 1 second

-Medic, sneak and purge stay behind the scrapper in melee combat out of reach of not specially at them aimed cleave attacks, also medic gets endure pain buff for atleast
6 seconds of its lifespan. Purge pulses his effect in an aoe radius arround it rather then flying towards allies and getting itself in the middle of a battle on purpose

The thing is that we got a rather hefty cooldown which starts when they are destroyed. And then we have a rather limited duration. And then they are rather frail and can be destroyed. That’s a lot of limiting mechanics.

Id argue that one have to go, meaning:

a) Long/infinite duration, long recharging, destructible (making the virtue of looking after and maintaining your gyros important).
b) Short duration, short recharging, destructible (meaning a frail and short duration but frequently available gyro, similar to phantasms in play)
c) Short duration, long recharging , invulnerable (fancy stances or signets with positional elements, allows for usability even in the thickest of battles)

Personally i would prefer a or b to c, allows counter play but also rewards good play from the engineer.

miriforst.1290:

The thing is that we got a rather hefty cooldown which starts when they are destroyed. And then we have a rather limited duration. And then they are rather frail and can be destroyed. That’s a lot of limiting mechanics.

Id argue that one have to go, meaning:

a) Long/infinite duration, long recharging, destructible (making the virtue of looking after and maintaining your gyros important).
b) Short duration, short recharging, destructible (meaning a frail and short duration but frequently available gyro, similar to phantasms in play)
c) Short duration, long recharging , invulnerable (fancy stances or signets with positional elements, allows for usability even in the thickest of battles)

Personally i would prefer a or b to c, allows counter play but also rewards good play from the engineer.

Turrets are A, Gyros should be B. It’s irritating enough that our shiny utilities are basically reskinned turrets that move with us, they should function as different as possible otherwise.

miriforst.1290:

a) Long/infinite duration, long recharging, destructible (making the virtue of looking after and maintaining your gyros important).

This option won’t make the gyro better, as their health pool is the problem and not the fact that they are destructable. This option will make it look better in the tooltip but in fact it doesn’t matter as it won’t reach it’s full duration / long duration anyway.

miriforst.1290:

b) Short duration, short recharging, destructible (meaning a frail and short duration but frequently available gyro, similar to phantasms in play)

This should be the way to go, which is actually what alot of people already suggested. For instance making the cooldown start once the gyro is activated. Not sure if that change is enough but that has to be decided per gyro.

miriforst.1290:

c) Short duration, long recharging , invulnerable (fancy stances or signets with positional elements, allows for usability even in the thickest of battles)

I see the word invunerable, won’t even argue about this one as I think it’s just lame…

But still if the gyro’s stay damageable, the health pool needs to be increased (assuming they are all 11k hp) of all of them..

MrTJpwnz.4710:

That there are hit points isn’t the problem to be honest… it’s just the amount of hit points that is a problem…

Really? AI with HP that is supposed to survive for any real length of in this game is a total failure, be it minions, turrets, ranger pets, whatever, you can’t balance HP, when even if we just take PvP, it can be a 1v1 or a 5v5. (and that is PvP, can you imagine WvW with these things they will insta die)

That they’ve introduced more AI after it being a total failure in this game, is laughable, though along with all the passives they’ve added it should give those still deluded about this game a clue to where the main focus is now, people that think ‘ooh what a pwetty robot, how cool’, that the gameplay of these gyros will be an unbalancable, broken kittenfest, is secondary to that.

When they said that the gyros share the boons, does that mean that they count towards the 5 target cap?

I think placing retaliation on them would be ideal. Players will automatically see them as squishy, and attack them first. Hopefully they at least make them immune to crits. that would their help their survivability a lot.

archmagus.7249:

When they said that the gyros share the boons, does that mean that they count towards the 5 target cap?

I think placing retaliation on them would be ideal. Players will automatically see them as squishy, and attack them first. Hopefully they at least make them immune to crits. that would their help their survivability a lot.

They do have their own boon list, so they do count towards the 5 target cap, however they have lower priority than players so they wont steal their boons.

zinkz.7045:

MrTJpwnz.4710:

That there are hit points isn’t the problem to be honest… it’s just the amount of hit points that is a problem…

Really? AI with HP that is supposed to survive for any real length of in this game is a total failure, be it minions, turrets, ranger pets, whatever, you can’t balance HP, when even if we just take PvP, it can be a 1v1 or a 5v5. (and that is PvP, can you imagine WvW with these things they will insta die)

Ele’s Earth elemental stays alive pretty well, so AI that is supposed to stay alive for a decent amount of time is possible… Also the HP is to stay alive, too make it possible to have counter play against the gyro’s. Of course the HP will stay the same in the different game modes we have (PvP PvE WvW) so we shouldn’t expect it to be viable taking it with WvW zerging anyway, next to the fact that there are better skills to take instead of those gyro’s imo. You don’t balance stuff only by their HP , no you balance stuff on their function/ cooldown / casttime etc etc. … They should focus on those points after given them a decent amount of health so they are viable taking when still having the counterplay possible.

Can’t really imagine that people wanna run with Gyro’s that are invulnerable, I mean why don’t they just give us signets then with a stun on each active..

They should treat them as structures, so that they’re immune to conditions and crits.

archmagus.7249:

They should treat them as structures, so that they’re immune to conditions and crits.

that would be a good option aswell

(Sorry I can’t post these as replies. The option to do so isn’t appearing. All i’ve got is the link)

If they’ve got a problem with having it baseline, then they could put it as a trait. Just give us some way to increase the survivability of these.

Morfedel.4165:

MrTJpwnz.4710:

That there are hit points isn’t the problem to be honest… it’s just the amount of hit points that is a problem…

Making them invunerable to damage would be lame, not even fun to play with (or against) them, 0 counterplay possiblities… Sad that alot of people don’t see that..

I agree. The problem is, do we really know what the gyro hit points is based on stats? I assume it scales with the players stats.

what we should do I think is check the stats on exotic armor for Celestial, Berserker, and, I don’t know, maybe Knight’s or Nomads or something.

Here is the reason why I think this is important. If their stats scale the way illusions do for mesmers, then it makes a big difference in their survivability based on what gear you use. For instance, a Bulwark Gyro may be far better for Sentinel gear than for Berserker.

I guess this all comes back to the zerker mentality. So many people look at zerker as the meta and then say “pDefender sucks!” Well, yes, when it adopts its own stats off yours, and its a fully defensive phantasm, and you GAVE it crappy vitality, don’t be surprised.

If you go beyond fully offensive gear and stats, then that might well change things.

Illusions have static HP… they dont scale off of the mesmer’s vitality. The only ways to increase illusion health are through the Signet passive and the trait in Inspiration. They do use the mesmer’s toughness though….

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusion

zinkz.7045:

MrTJpwnz.4710:

That there are hit points isn’t the problem to be honest… it’s just the amount of hit points that is a problem…

Really? AI with HP that is supposed to survive for any real length of in this game is a total failure, be it minions, turrets, ranger pets, whatever, you can’t balance HP, when even if we just take PvP, it can be a 1v1 or a 5v5. (and that is PvP, can you imagine WvW with these things they will insta die)

That they’ve introduced more AI after it being a total failure in this game, is laughable, though along with all the passives they’ve added it should give those still deluded about this game a clue to where the main focus is now, people that think ‘ooh what a pwetty robot, how cool’, that the gameplay of these gyros will be an unbalancable, broken kittenfest, is secondary to that.

My mesmer disagrees with you