Engineer is love, Engineer is life.
Concerns about the new gyros.
Let’s just freaking wait for the whole anouncement on friday, even then until we get our hands on it during BWE3. The daredevil and tempest was also put on as OP etc… Then BWE came and opinion changed rapidly.
I really hope Anet does not take the threads of the past hour or so in consideration.
I for one am excited and can’t wait to try out the hammer with some Gyro drones and a flamethrower.
Let’s just freaking wait for the whole anouncement on friday, even then until we get our hands on it during BWE3. The daredevil and tempest was also put on as OP etc… Then BWE came and opinion changed rapidly.
I really hope Anet does not take the threads of the past hour or so in consideration.
I for one am excited and can’t wait to try out the hammer with some Gyro drones and a flamethrower.
The concern here is that ANet has been unable to make a balanced AI spec in the history of this game. I don’t know that they’re capable of it, or that it can be done in GW2. Even worse, we already have our token (useless) AI spec, and we have few enough viable utilities already. Our utility skills already have to be weapon swaps, stunbreaks, condition clears, panic button…all of which the guardian (for example) can get from virtues alone (plus the weapon swap, but they get that for free).
The concern here is that ANet has been unable to make a balanced AI spec in the history of this game. I don’t know that they’re capable of it, or that it can be done in GW2.
I don’t know if you or others know that ArenaNet has been working with Dave Mark on the expansion. If you don’t know who he is, he literally wrote the book on MMO AI. He is helping them have better AI for Guild Wars 2.
Here is the video from GDC 2015 where they talk about AI in gaming and how they are working to make it better in Guild Wars 2.
Foreign Key
~~~Gaiscioch Guild~~~
~~~Gaiscioch Guild~~~
The concern here is that ANet has been unable to make a balanced AI spec in the history of this game. I don’t know that they’re capable of it, or that it can be done in GW2.
I don’t know if you or others know that ArenaNet has been working with Dave Mark on the expansion. If you don’t know who he is, he literally wrote the book on MMO AI. He is helping them have better AI for Guild Wars 2.
Here is the video from GDC 2015 where they talk about AI in gaming and how they are working to make it better in Guild Wars 2.
I’m not talking about an AI competence standpoint, I’m talking about a design standpoint. They can’t make a faceroll easy setup too effective, or else it will be considered low-risk, high-reward. Designating tasks to AI (as with guardian’s spirit weapons, necro’s minions, engi’s turrets) has always been a way to make easy-to-use builds, and ANet is forced to make those builds less effective to compensate. That is my concern here.
It is very clear now that our new utility type will be partly AI based so they can “seek out & aid allies” as well as “[with superspeed] deliver their payload really fast”.
Also it was said that they will remain close to your character most of the time, so it indeed seems that they have a passive & active stage.Please, for the love of god, make them invulnerable to dmg while being in their passive phase A-net, else you automatically disqualify this new utility-type to be used in WvW-zerging.
I have no idea what their effects are & I have no idea if they will even become a viable alternative to kits or elixirs, but if they can be destroyed while doing nothing but performing their passive effect, you gifted us with a stillborn utility-type long before you even had to balance their effects.
Likely not going to happen. They seem like beefed up Spirit Weapons, which also started out like that as well before cry of nerf.
these likely will be attackable.
I’m hoping that purge might at least be useful, if it can take a similar role as healing turret (the only turret that is actually useful right now). Other than that, I’m hoping that the hammer and traits are good enough to justify using the elite spec, because I don’t have confidence that the utilities will be good enough.
The concern here is that ANet has been unable to make a balanced AI spec in the history of this game. I don’t know that they’re capable of it, or that it can be done in GW2.
I don’t know if you or others know that ArenaNet has been working with Dave Mark on the expansion. If you don’t know who he is, he literally wrote the book on MMO AI. He is helping them have better AI for Guild Wars 2.
Here is the video from GDC 2015 where they talk about AI in gaming and how they are working to make it better in Guild Wars 2.
Yes, they are improving their AI.
And now please explain how this has anything to with preventing AI with a healthbar from getting blasted by a metric cat-ton of AoE. You know, the stuff you’re expected to meet in WvW (and maybe soon in PvE raids).
Do you understand why WoW had to introduce a 90% dmg reduction from AoE for Hunter pets & shaman totems?
Do you understand why builds focused around turret-upkeep are dead?
It doesn’t matter how awesome, viable or fun gyros will be. If they can be damaged, they are already useless. That is why you won’t find any spirit-rangers, minion-masters, spirit-weapon-guardians, turreteers or phantasm-mesmers in WvW zerging.
If it can take damage and is not controlled by WASD, it’s useless!
Drop’n’pop is the only valid way to use turrets, which are the only AI in the game that sees frequent use from their parent class. And that is so only because they can be used in a viable fashion that reduces their uptime to virtually zero.
So IF gyros come with a healthbar, A-net better gives us detonator-skills as toolbelt, which work as blast-finisher & overcharges which can be fired off instantly.
… They better flag them as turrets right away, so they also profit from accelerant-packed turrets.
Engineer is love, Engineer is life.
(edited by Arantheal.7396)
I know the MMORPG article compared them to spirit weapons, but after thinking about how they were explained, the concept I get in my head is closer to mesmer clones.
Like, you use the Purge Gyro, it floats around for a while cleansing conditions, and it disappears. Perhaps one of the damage Gyros flys out to an area/target, does a few attacks, and then disappears. IMO the reason why Mesmer clones have worked fairly well, whereas turrets, spirit weapons, minions and pets have had a constant struggle of reiteration, is that clones are by their nature much more disposable than other forms of AI skills and mechanics, making it a lot easier to find that balance of sturdy enough to not be worthless, but not so sturdy that players develop an unhealthy reliance to them.
I’m hoping that Gyros have a One-and-done nature to their effects that does not rely on having to survive any more than 4-5 seconds in order for the skill to be worthwhile.
I know the MMORPG article compared them to spirit weapons, but after thinking about how they were explained, the concept I get in my head is closer to mesmer clones.
Like, you use the Purge Gyro, it floats around for a while cleansing conditions, and it disappears. Perhaps one of the damage Gyros flys out to an area/target, does a few attacks, and then disappears. IMO the reason why Mesmer clones have worked fairly well, whereas turrets, spirit weapons, minions and pets have had a constant struggle of reiteration, is that clones are by their nature much more disposable than other forms of AI skills and mechanics, making it a lot easier to find that balance of sturdy enough to not be worthless, but not so sturdy that players develop an unhealthy reliance to them.
I’m hoping that Gyros have a One-and-done nature to their effects that does not rely on having to survive any more than 4-5 seconds in order for the skill to be worthwhile.
That’s also why the healing turret actually works; you drop it, overcharge, then either explode or pick up.
I know the MMORPG article compared them to spirit weapons, but after thinking about how they were explained, the concept I get in my head is closer to mesmer clones.
Like, you use the Purge Gyro, it floats around for a while cleansing conditions, and it disappears. Perhaps one of the damage Gyros flys out to an area/target, does a few attacks, and then disappears. IMO the reason why Mesmer clones have worked fairly well, whereas turrets, spirit weapons, minions and pets have had a constant struggle of reiteration, is that clones are by their nature much more disposable than other forms of AI skills and mechanics, making it a lot easier to find that balance of sturdy enough to not be worthless, but not so sturdy that players develop an unhealthy reliance to them.
I’m hoping that Gyros have a One-and-done nature to their effects that does not rely on having to survive any more than 4-5 seconds in order for the skill to be worthwhile.
True, completely forgot about mesmer clones in my post.
So I guess this game has 2 examples of viable AI. Both which profit from short life-span & on-death effects. I wonder why…
Engineer is love, Engineer is life.
I know the MMORPG article compared them to spirit weapons, but after thinking about how they were explained, the concept I get in my head is closer to mesmer clones.
Like, you use the Purge Gyro, it floats around for a while cleansing conditions, and it disappears. Perhaps one of the damage Gyros flys out to an area/target, does a few attacks, and then disappears. IMO the reason why Mesmer clones have worked fairly well, whereas turrets, spirit weapons, minions and pets have had a constant struggle of reiteration, is that clones are by their nature much more disposable than other forms of AI skills and mechanics, making it a lot easier to find that balance of sturdy enough to not be worthless, but not so sturdy that players develop an unhealthy reliance to them.
I’m hoping that Gyros have a One-and-done nature to their effects that does not rely on having to survive any more than 4-5 seconds in order for the skill to be worthwhile.
True, completely forgot about mesmer clones in my post.
So I guess this game has 2 examples of viable AI. Both which profit from short life-span & on-death effects. I wonder why…
Well, you did mention phantasms, which in my mind is part of “Mesmer Clones” but considering you obviously speak from WvW experience, I can see how that might be a very different (and undesirable) form of player AI in your view.
That’s also why the healing turret actually works; you drop it, overcharge, then either explode or pick up.
Which honestly, has always been something that’s really bugged me, I wish Healing Turret had something that made keeping it up desirable, even if drop→ detonate is still the common tactic, but until they figure out a way to do it that doesn’t involving nerfing, I’m content with Healing Turret being used in the way it is now.
I know the MMORPG article compared them to spirit weapons, but after thinking about how they were explained, the concept I get in my head is closer to mesmer clones.
Like, you use the Purge Gyro, it floats around for a while cleansing conditions, and it disappears. Perhaps one of the damage Gyros flys out to an area/target, does a few attacks, and then disappears. IMO the reason why Mesmer clones have worked fairly well, whereas turrets, spirit weapons, minions and pets have had a constant struggle of reiteration, is that clones are by their nature much more disposable than other forms of AI skills and mechanics, making it a lot easier to find that balance of sturdy enough to not be worthless, but not so sturdy that players develop an unhealthy reliance to them.
I’m hoping that Gyros have a One-and-done nature to their effects that does not rely on having to survive any more than 4-5 seconds in order for the skill to be worthwhile.
True, completely forgot about mesmer clones in my post.
So I guess this game has 2 examples of viable AI. Both which profit from short life-span & on-death effects. I wonder why…Well, you did mention phantasms, which in my mind is part of “Mesmer Clones” but considering you obviously speak from WvW experience, I can see how that might be a very different (and undesirable) form of player AI in your view.
That’s also why the healing turret actually works; you drop it, overcharge, then either explode or pick up.
Which honestly, has always been something that’s really bugged me, I wish Healing Turret had something that made keeping it up desirable, but I can’t think of anything that doesn’t first involve nerfing the drop -> detonate use it has now, and the other healing skills Engineers have are situational at best, and none could really fill the gap that Healing Turret currently holds.
The thing is, having a turret on a point would just get it melted in seconds even in an average 1v1 (which these days is usually against a d/d cele). If untraited, it seems to go down in maybe 2 decent hits. This would be a problem everywhere, and an utter disaster in WvW.
I know the MMORPG article compared them to spirit weapons, but after thinking about how they were explained, the concept I get in my head is closer to mesmer clones.
Like, you use the Purge Gyro, it floats around for a while cleansing conditions, and it disappears. Perhaps one of the damage Gyros flys out to an area/target, does a few attacks, and then disappears. IMO the reason why Mesmer clones have worked fairly well, whereas turrets, spirit weapons, minions and pets have had a constant struggle of reiteration, is that clones are by their nature much more disposable than other forms of AI skills and mechanics, making it a lot easier to find that balance of sturdy enough to not be worthless, but not so sturdy that players develop an unhealthy reliance to them.
I’m hoping that Gyros have a One-and-done nature to their effects that does not rely on having to survive any more than 4-5 seconds in order for the skill to be worthwhile.
True, completely forgot about mesmer clones in my post.
So I guess this game has 2 examples of viable AI. Both which profit from short life-span & on-death effects. I wonder why…Well, you did mention phantasms, which in my mind is part of “Mesmer Clones” but considering you obviously speak from WvW experience, I can see how that might be a very different (and undesirable) form of player AI in your view.
That’s also why the healing turret actually works; you drop it, overcharge, then either explode or pick up.
Which honestly, has always been something that’s really bugged me, I wish Healing Turret had something that made keeping it up desirable, even if drop-> detonate is still the common tactic, but until they figure out a way to do it that doesn’t involving nerfing, I’m content with Healing Turret being used in the way it is now.
Back, when turrets got their AI fixed & everybody was playing around with them, I liked to keep them out as additional AoE-cap protection & for their vigor. In settlers gear is was very profitable to run turrets, but since they suffer from condis & crits themselves, there is no point in leaving them out.
If others destroy them you don’t get a blast-finisher, nor the cd-reduction. And since vigor does not stack with adrenal implant, arguments for their up-keeping are not only sitting on a very thin branch anymore, but are completely pointless now.
Engineer is love, Engineer is life.
The concern here is that ANet has been unable to make a balanced AI spec in the history of this game. I don’t know that they’re capable of it, or that it can be done in GW2. Even worse, we already have our token (useless) AI spec, and we have few enough viable utilities already. Our utility skills already have to be weapon swaps, stunbreaks, condition clears, panic button…all of which the guardian (for example) can get from virtues alone (plus the weapon swap, but they get that for free).
Spot on, if its AI based it kind of beggars belief that they would introduce another AI spec given their difficulties with other AI specs and given their unpopularity.
Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
Personally, I love gyros with extra tzatziki sauce
NSP’s resident crazy-eyed sylvari
The concern here is that ANet has been unable to make a balanced AI spec in the history of this game. I don’t know that they’re capable of it, or that it can be done in GW2. Even worse, we already have our token (useless) AI spec, and we have few enough viable utilities already. Our utility skills already have to be weapon swaps, stunbreaks, condition clears, panic button…all of which the guardian (for example) can get from virtues alone (plus the weapon swap, but they get that for free).
Spot on, if its AI based it kind of beggars belief that they would introduce another AI spec given their difficulties with other AI specs and given their unpopularity.
Especially on a profession which already has its token terrible AI option.
The concern here is that ANet has been unable to make a balanced AI spec in the history of this game. I don’t know that they’re capable of it, or that it can be done in GW2.
I don’t know if you or others know that ArenaNet has been working with Dave Mark on the expansion. If you don’t know who he is, he literally wrote the book on MMO AI. He is helping them have better AI for Guild Wars 2.
Here is the video from GDC 2015 where they talk about AI in gaming and how they are working to make it better in Guild Wars 2.
Yes, they are improving their AI.
And now please explain how this has anything to with preventing AI with a healthbar from getting blasted by a metric cat-ton of AoE. You know, the stuff you’re expected to meet in WvW (and maybe soon in PvE raids).
Do you understand why WoW had to introduce a 90% dmg reduction from AoE for Hunter pets & shaman totems?
Do you understand why builds focused around turret-upkeep are dead?It doesn’t matter how awesome, viable or fun gyros will be. If they can be damaged, they are already useless. That is why you won’t find any spirit-rangers, minion-masters, spirit-weapon-guardians, turreteers or phantasm-mesmers in WvW zerging.
If it can take damage and is not controlled by WASD, it’s useless!
Drop’n’pop is the only valid way to use turrets, which are the only AI in the game that sees frequent use from their parent class. And that is so only because they can be used in a viable fashion that reduces their uptime to virtually zero.
So IF gyros come with a healthbar, A-net better gives us detonator-skills as toolbelt, which work as blast-finisher & overcharges which can be fired off instantly.
… They better flag them as turrets right away, so they also profit from accelerant-packed turrets.
+1. Healthbars on minion necros i can kind of see because they are just so offensive, but they serve to completely invalidate spirits and gyros, and even necro minions and ranger pets ought to have aoe damage reduction.
SBI | Oceans | Ranger – Thief – Ele – Eng – Nec – Guard – Rev
Celestial Avatar is like an old man: Takes forever to get up and is spent in 4 seconds
Celestial Avatar is like an old man: Takes forever to get up and is spent in 4 seconds
It is very clear now that our new utility type will be partly AI based so they can “seek out & aid allies” as well as “[with superspeed] deliver their payload really fast”.
Also it was said that they will remain close to your character most of the time, so it indeed seems that they have a passive & active stage.Please, for the love of god, make them invulnerable to dmg while being in their passive phase A-net, else you automatically disqualify this new utility-type to be used in WvW-zerging.
I have no idea what their effects are & I have no idea if they will even become a viable alternative to kits or elixirs, but if they can be destroyed while doing nothing but performing their passive effect, you gifted us with a stillborn utility-type long before you even had to balance their effects.
Well with the Necromancer Minion AI fix, I presume they use the same AI as it took 3 years for them to fix minions… I am guessing the drones will perform functions while also being able to activate special abilities similar to minions for necro…
Blackfang’s Demon Alliance [BfDA]
I know the MMORPG article compared them to spirit weapons, but after thinking about how they were explained, the concept I get in my head is closer to mesmer clones.
Like, you use the Purge Gyro, it floats around for a while cleansing conditions, and it disappears. Perhaps one of the damage Gyros flys out to an area/target, does a few attacks, and then disappears. IMO the reason why Mesmer clones have worked fairly well, whereas turrets, spirit weapons, minions and pets have had a constant struggle of reiteration, is that clones are by their nature much more disposable than other forms of AI skills and mechanics, making it a lot easier to find that balance of sturdy enough to not be worthless, but not so sturdy that players develop an unhealthy reliance to them.
I’m hoping that Gyros have a One-and-done nature to their effects that does not rely on having to survive any more than 4-5 seconds in order for the skill to be worthwhile.
True, completely forgot about mesmer clones in my post.
So I guess this game has 2 examples of viable AI. Both which profit from short life-span & on-death effects. I wonder why…
Mesmer’s lost the on death effect on clones. Either way, the only reason Mesmer illusions and ranger pets work work so well is that the class itself is balanced around their uptime. I realize the AI of both can be buggy, but there is no denying that a ranger pet or illusions have better uptime than any other AI in the game. Somewhere around 50% of the dps of the class is given to these mechanics and anet compensates by making them more reliable.
So anet will compensate for these drones offensive abilities by making them targetable, reducing their uptime beneath illusions and pets.
However, if anet produces a mechanic that is essentially a signet, and not a minion, then the AI will not be targetable. After all current signet passives are uncounterable, and their actives can be interupted but not destroyed either.
“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.