Guild Wars 2

Unlike other classes, the Engi’s best method of dealing both condition and power damage comes from one source: its explosive kits! The issue is that the trait line that increases the potency of the explosive kits is so incredibly power oriented that taking it in a condi build would actually hurt your build because of weak traits! For example a condi build that doesn’t use the Grenade Kit has only reduced fall damage and 5% increased power damage to choose from! Both are incredibly worthless in a condi build! A condi build that doesn’t run Bomb Kit has to choose between a power burst proc trait or another increased power damage trait! Again, both are worthless in a condi build! This wouldn’t be an issue if the Engineer didn’t rely so much on its explosive kits to be competitive against anyone even remotely good at the game! But such is the way of Anet balance!

I recommended a few changes in a previous thread! I recommended combining Explosive Decent with Grenadier to free up a slot for a condi trait in tier 1! I recommended removing the Glass Cannon trait and moving Shaped Charge down to tier 1 and increasing its damage increase to 7-10%! This would free up a slot for a condi trait in tier 2 and keep the PvE-ers happy because they don’t lose much or any damage output!

Right now aside from a few gimmicky burn builds and extremely weak explosive builds, condi Engis are out! I feel these changes would help them not be so low tier! Anet plz help!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

I suppose another solution would be to keep the explosives as the Engineer’s power oriented kits and beef up the firearm kits to be viable condition weapons, although this route would require some serious overhauls on Anet’s part which, sadly, will probably never happen! For example the Bomb Kit would need some adjustments as it’s just awful in a power build! Traited Elixir Gun could maybe burn with its Acid Bomb and apply Torment with Elixir F! The Flamethrower is completely power oriented (and a terrible one at that) aside from its gimmicky burn toolbelt! You could change it so it applies more burning on the auto attack and its other skills! Again this route would require a lot of overhauls to the kits and Anet isn’t one for overhauls in a reasonable time frame!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Why are you not running grenades, bombs, and motor?

Celestial hybrid grenades with or without bombs (which have scaled well with power in the past) can actually do a decent amount of damage. The condi damage seems less now while some alternate traits give extra physical hits to compensate. I’ve not compared the actual damage to past builds though.

The changes to how grenades act as a base seem to have more of an affect on condi versions more than anything right now.

Flamethrower has decent utility. Been trying out a burn based build and getting interesting results, will be trying it out soon for real. 6k burn ticks is pretty fun though…

ellesee.8297:

I suppose another solution would be to keep the explosives as the Engineer’s power oriented kits and beef up the firearm kits to be viable condition weapons, although this route would require some serious overhauls on Anet’s part which, sadly, will probably never happen! For example the Bomb Kit would need some adjustments as it’s just awful in a power build! Traited Elixir Gun could maybe burn with its Acid Bomb and apply Torment with Elixir F! The Flamethrower is completely power oriented (and a terrible one at that) aside from its gimmicky burn toolbelt! You could change it so it applies more burning on the auto attack and its other skills! Again this route would require a lot of overhauls to the kits and Anet isn’t one for overhauls in a reasonable time frame!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Actually that change to the eg might be legitimate , considering how weak condis are without high condi damage it would.make the elixir gun stronger for condi builds and its effectiveness would drop with the less condi damage you stacked.

ellesee.8297:

I suppose another solution would be to keep the explosives as the Engineer’s power oriented kits and beef up the firearm kits to be viable condition weapons, although this route would require some serious overhauls on Anet’s part which, sadly, will probably never happen! For example the Bomb Kit would need some adjustments as it’s just awful in a power build! Traited Elixir Gun could maybe burn with its Acid Bomb and apply Torment with Elixir F! The Flamethrower is completely power oriented (and a terrible one at that) aside from its gimmicky burn toolbelt! You could change it so it applies more burning on the auto attack and its other skills! Again this route would require a lot of overhauls to the kits and Anet isn’t one for overhauls in a reasonable time frame!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

While I agree Explosives is pretty lackluster at the moment, almost every other kit is strong as hell right now.

First off, you’re insane if you think flamethrower should be a condition weapon.

You explicitly GIVE UP Napalm Specialist to spec into Juggernaut. And if you are using the FT without Juggeranut you’re not using it correctly as any other kit will fit your condition needs better. Elixir gun in combination with mortar is also very good if run a regeneration rabid build with focus on bleed/poison, it doesn’t need some unwarranted buffs to condition damage (Torment on elixir F? What?).

Also you need to run condition cleansing now. I know exactly the problem you are probably running into, and its that you are using too many kits for too many weapon abilities so you can output that sik sik damage and you completely forgot that as an engineer you can die without enough cleansing. You basically require elixir C or something similar until they nerf burning, and even then burning may still be enough of an annoyance to require heavy cleansing.

I know a lot of people like Engineer because you can slot OH MY GOD 3/4 MORE WEAPONS I CAN PLAY COOLDOWN WACK-A-MOLE AND HIDE BEHIND MY AWESOME GEAR SHIELD WHILE I WAIT FOR HT TO COME OFF COOLDOWN HARHARHAR but that isn’t viable anymore.

You’re going to rely on the traited elixir S and gear shield to keep you alive, both of which do not stop you from burning to death, and you are doing literally 0 nada zilch NOTHING during those two 3-4s durations. You are basically being a selfish prick and delaying a stomp by chickening out with I-Can’t-Believe-Its-Not-Shelter.

Try HGH Juggernaut if you want an FT build. Try Elixir Gun Mortar if you want a condition build that screws up other conditions. Its really good, my winrate with the two builds is amazing and I really couldn’t win games consistently before I started running them.

I tried to play pistol pistol with firearm , inventions and tool ( for power wrench , lock on and perma vigor) with nades toolkit and elixir S , mortar , rabid amulet and balth runes and it seems to me quite viable . Instead i try hgh with pistol pistol and rabid having no control , with full elixirs and mortar, it seems to me really weak .

Oh look, another thread that’s validating what I said before the Trait Revamp.

PierPiero.9142:

I tried to play pistol pistol with firearm , inventions and tool ( for power wrench , lock on and perma vigor) with nades toolkit and elixir S , mortar , rabid amulet and balth runes and it seems to me quite viable . Instead i try hgh with pistol pistol and rabid having no control , with full elixirs and mortar, it seems to me really weak .

4 elixirs and pistol is the opposite issue of 4 kits. You need to find the proper balance, don’t go all in one way or the other and be surprised when you get destroyed by the exact thing you didn’t prepare for.

Ricky Rouse.1583:

PierPiero.9142:

I tried to play pistol pistol with firearm , inventions and tool ( for power wrench , lock on and perma vigor) with nades toolkit and elixir S , mortar , rabid amulet and balth runes and it seems to me quite viable . Instead i try hgh with pistol pistol and rabid having no control , with full elixirs and mortar, it seems to me really weak .

4 elixirs and pistol is the opposite issue of 4 kits. You need to find the proper balance, don’t go all in one way or the other and be surprised when you get destroyed by the exact thing you didn’t prepare for.

I tried it becouse i wanted to play something different from the classic pistol pistol nade, toolikit + elixir S or eg… i know that builds with 2 kit remain strong

Ricky Rouse.1583:

ellesee.8297:

I suppose another solution would be to keep the explosives as the Engineer’s power oriented kits and beef up the firearm kits to be viable condition weapons, although this route would require some serious overhauls on Anet’s part which, sadly, will probably never happen! For example the Bomb Kit would need some adjustments as it’s just awful in a power build! Traited Elixir Gun could maybe burn with its Acid Bomb and apply Torment with Elixir F! The Flamethrower is completely power oriented (and a terrible one at that) aside from its gimmicky burn toolbelt! You could change it so it applies more burning on the auto attack and its other skills! Again this route would require a lot of overhauls to the kits and Anet isn’t one for overhauls in a reasonable time frame!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

While I agree Explosives is pretty lackluster at the moment, almost every other kit is strong as hell right now.

First off, you’re insane if you think flamethrower should be a condition weapon.

You explicitly GIVE UP Napalm Specialist to spec into Juggernaut. And if you are using the FT without Juggeranut you’re not using it correctly as any other kit will fit your condition needs better. Elixir gun in combination with mortar is also very good if run a regeneration rabid build with focus on bleed/poison, it doesn’t need some unwarranted buffs to condition damage (Torment on elixir F? What?).

Also you need to run condition cleansing now. I know exactly the problem you are probably running into, and its that you are using too many kits for too many weapon abilities so you can output that sik sik damage and you completely forgot that as an engineer you can die without enough cleansing. You basically require elixir C or something similar until they nerf burning, and even then burning may still be enough of an annoyance to require heavy cleansing.

I know a lot of people like Engineer because you can slot OH MY GOD 3/4 MORE WEAPONS I CAN PLAY COOLDOWN WACK-A-MOLE AND HIDE BEHIND MY AWESOME GEAR SHIELD WHILE I WAIT FOR HT TO COME OFF COOLDOWN HARHARHAR but that isn’t viable anymore.

You’re going to rely on the traited elixir S and gear shield to keep you alive, both of which do not stop you from burning to death, and you are doing literally 0 nada zilch NOTHING during those two 3-4s durations. You are basically being a selfish prick and delaying a stomp by chickening out with I-Can’t-Believe-Its-Not-Shelter.

Try HGH Juggernaut if you want an FT build. Try Elixir Gun Mortar if you want a condition build that screws up other conditions. Its really good, my winrate with the two builds is amazing and I really couldn’t win games consistently before I started running them.

Lol it cracks me up that you are trying to tell vee wee how to play engineer, considering he/she has played since released and most likely has more games that everyone in this thread combined.

Slot elixir C? are you kidding me dude? An extraordinarily long cooldown condition removal that only momentarily fixes the issue, and then makes you susceptible to corrupt boon, or boon rip. Engineer is basically forced to take 2 kits and a stunbreak to even come close to matching the damage other classes have on their weapon sets. So taking elixir C really is not an option.

BTW post up some links to these awesome flamethrower and EG builds your spouting off about. Better yet post up a video of you owning anyone good with them, or contributing to a team better than you can with a power oriented explosives build,. I’ve tried flamethrower, and EG. EG is a utility weapon, that is decent in a 1 on 1 fight or for fast map travel, cleansing teammates, or putting out downed pressure on downed players assuming your a power build. As for flamethrower I’ve never seen it be used legitimately in team play. I’m sure there is an engi out there that can, but usually when I see an engineer running flamethrower I’m thinking I have a free kill on my hands.

I do use ft/eg, carrion/forge as a team support role. Eg5, mortar5 aoe condi cleanses, fumigate, downed pressure pressure, elixir u! For turbo fast ressing and protective walls, also lots of aoe protection.. lots of aoe might.

Very effective in team play.

My guildies do the face melting.

Thankyou and good night.

I see neither links to these builds, nor footage of spectacular gameplay, that makes me want to rethink the conclusions I’ve drawn about the kits in question. More or less you “claim” that you use these weapons effectively in a team setting. As I’ve posted before extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to be taken seriously.

Btw mortar is nothing more than a kittentier version of what grenades were pre-patch.

Calm down princess! Did someone forget to change their towel this morning?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqelcThyrYtWwdLQ7FLsFVYNcRvG4IeiBgYHVFPBA-TJxCwAAeAAaLDQ5EAUd/BA

Now I want links and/or videos that you aren’t a mouth breathing oxygen thief! XD XD

Vee my frand ;-) , I do agree with the weakness of bombs in condi builds. I’ve been a big fan of the condi changes overall but I am too disappointed with the lack of condi traits in explosives and also the silly model/animations for the BK :-P

Though strictly speaking, I’m running a hybrid build anywhooo.

zaragoz.6351:

Lol it cracks me up that you are trying to tell vee wee how to play engineer, considering he/she has played since released and most likely has more games that everyone in this thread combined.

Slot elixir C? are you kidding me dude? An extraordinarily long cooldown condition removal that only momentarily fixes the issue, and then makes you susceptible to corrupt boon, or boon rip. Engineer is basically forced to take 2 kits and a stunbreak to even come close to matching the damage other classes have on their weapon sets. So taking elixir C really is not an option.

BTW post up some links to these awesome flamethrower and EG builds your spouting off about. Better yet post up a video of you owning anyone good with them, or contributing to a team better than you can with a power oriented explosives build,. I’ve tried flamethrower, and EG. EG is a utility weapon, that is decent in a 1 on 1 fight or for fast map travel, cleansing teammates, or putting out downed pressure on downed players assuming your a power build. As for flamethrower I’ve never seen it be used legitimately in team play. I’m sure there is an engi out there that can, but usually when I see an engineer running flamethrower I’m thinking I have a free kill on my hands.

I’ve had this account since BWE 1 as well, and mainly played Engineer. Doesn’t make MY opinion any more or less valid, does it? Anyways…

That “Extraordinarily long cooldown” is 32 seconds, and its enough to save you in a fight, especially considering Warriors and Rangers slot abilities that have 2x the cooldown and only nullify issues for about 4-6 seconds. Turning a bar full of conditions into a bar full of boons is important, even if said boons don’t last very long. And its used as a full clear for when things get bad, which in this meta, most people frontload a load of conditions. From necromancers to venomshare to mesmers, people are applying a silly amount of conditions in short amounts of time. You need cleansing to save your life. The two you get off healing turret is going to get you absolutely blasted by most classes, including burn guards. The minute you cleanse 5 burn stacks they will apply 4 more, and by that point a gear shield won’t save you.

As for the boon ripping/corruption, if you can show me one necromancer actually running corruptions i’d love to see it, because they’ve all been complaining about how gutted and unusable corruptions are. I’ve seen none over the past few days. Or Arcane Thievery for that matter, I haven’t seen that either.

As for the video, I don’t have any recording software. If you really want i’ll get a bunch of screenshots of like a consecutive 10 ranked game sample and post it, but i’ll need a day to do it.

As for the whole damage argument, Flame Blast are great for pressure and group fights. And I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but the grenade pattern has gotten really really unreliable after the core rebalance. Like, really unreliable. Before you could make do with the slow projectiles and just predict accordingly, but now your own grenades are working against you. Because they are 900 range, and the arc is lower, they can freak out, go way too low, and stop dead at 450. They can spread more than 180 distance apart and nullify a 3 hit entirely. In full marauder I tried tossing nades at two downed necromancers and an ele rezzing. I probably could have spit on them to greater effect.

As for the builds, just trait Inventions/Alchemy/Fire Arms. Mecha Legs, Backpack Regenerator, Bunker Down, HGH, and then the rest is up to you. Screws with conditions and lets you survive and heal WHILE actually doing things instead of hiding behind a gear shield like a puss puss while your friends die around you.

zaragoz.6351:

I see neither links to these builds, nor footage of spectacular gameplay, that makes me want to rethink the conclusions I’ve drawn about the kits in question. More or less you “claim” that you use these weapons effectively in a team setting. As I’ve posted before extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to be taken seriously.

Btw mortar is nothing more than a kittentier version of what grenades were pre-patch.

Since you’re so desperate for links, here, try them yourself.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlcThqrYBWwWLw6FL3FVYNFQZG4CWABgYB9D5AA-TJRBABR8AAivMAN7PAwFAAA

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqalcThqrYBWwdLQ7FLsFV4SdRvG4HWiBg4GVFPBA-TpAMgA2lBA2fAA

Ricky Rouse.1583:

zaragoz.6351:

I see neither links to these builds, nor footage of spectacular gameplay, that makes me want to rethink the conclusions I’ve drawn about the kits in question. More or less you “claim” that you use these weapons effectively in a team setting. As I’ve posted before extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to be taken seriously.

Btw mortar is nothing more than a kittentier version of what grenades were pre-patch.

Since you’re so desperate for links, here, try them yourself.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlcThqrYBWwWLw6FL3FVYNFQZG4CWABgYB9D5AA-TJRBABR8AAivMAN7PAwFAAA

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqalcThqrYBWwdLQ7FLsFV4SdRvG4HWiBg4GVFPBA-TpAMgA2lBA2fAA

these builds are terrible, unless you are fighting 100% condi builds in a 1v1 at all times then sure it might go all right but there is no way you could ever use these in high tier games and expect to survive or even expect to give out good team utility.

Been trying http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqelUUhCsY9VwdLw6FLsFVYNcRvG4HWiBgYHFjPBA-T5QHQAkTAQd/BwDAAA
with both rabid and settler amulet lately and must say the damage potential is quite nice & the survivability is insane.

Ricky Rouse.1583:

ellesee.8297:

I suppose another solution would be to keep the explosives as the Engineer’s power oriented kits and beef up the firearm kits to be viable condition weapons, although this route would require some serious overhauls on Anet’s part which, sadly, will probably never happen! For example the Bomb Kit would need some adjustments as it’s just awful in a power build! Traited Elixir Gun could maybe burn with its Acid Bomb and apply Torment with Elixir F! The Flamethrower is completely power oriented (and a terrible one at that) aside from its gimmicky burn toolbelt! You could change it so it applies more burning on the auto attack and its other skills! Again this route would require a lot of overhauls to the kits and Anet isn’t one for overhauls in a reasonable time frame!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

While I agree Explosives is pretty lackluster at the moment, almost every other kit is strong as hell right now.

First off, you’re insane if you think flamethrower should be a condition weapon.

You explicitly GIVE UP Napalm Specialist to spec into Juggernaut. And if you are using the FT without Juggeranut you’re not using it correctly as any other kit will fit your condition needs better. Elixir gun in combination with mortar is also very good if run a regeneration rabid build with focus on bleed/poison, it doesn’t need some unwarranted buffs to condition damage (Torment on elixir F? What?).

Often this talk doesn’t clarify wvw, pve, or spvp..
Pve
FT is good without juggernaut. Might is really easy to come by these days.
Naplam is a 10s fire field. strong burning by itself, esp on a stationary target. But also, providing a TON of procs from mortar 1, or blast combos.
Airblast extends all sources of burning on a target. (yours at least, dunno multiplayer interaction) But a cond engi can be running 14-20 stacks of burning at a given time.
In sinister gear, fireblast is.. ok. not great, not horrible. Better then most autoattacks.
I never did mathout how well flamejet preforms…

2s burn on a 2.5s attack. 10 hits, 4hits/s.. 2.25coef , .225 each, .9coef/s with .8s of burning.
hrm. just reading that, thats better then frag shot. esp with added sharpshooter procs.
10% extra vs burning and 98% burning duration.. .99coef/s, and 1.58s of burning/second.

Mortar 1 through a firefield is .8 every .8s with 1s of burning. or 1coef/s with 1.25s of burning. (10% explosives is super inconsistant, 2.475s burning/s)

Incendiary ammo is still mediocre, even fixed. CD is just way too high.

Swapping flamejet in for frag shot, and with IA fixed, the 11000dps estimate should go up to like 12000+ for my pve cond build.

But should note, do also agree explosives teir 1 sucks.

FT in pvp. the firefields are much less useful give line and size. the airblast knockback/reflect is great however. Targeting of flamejet makes it near useless as a skill.

somehow im disappointed that it’s coming from vee wee

encourage easy condi play instead of power ……. really bro

Vee Wee, I would go as far to suggest that incendiary powder be moved back to explosives. I would swap its place with shrapnel (by moving it to firearms) and make it so shrapnel applys to more than just explosives and gives like a 20-33% boost in bleed damage.

Having incendiary powder as a GM in explosives, and moving around short fuse and other traits like you suggest would help a lot with not just condi engi, but celestial rifle engi, as we all know that the build is pretty much dead without incendiary powder since its dependent on explosives for nade damage and whatnot, and with the current traitlines, its impossible to have all of the condi pressure, direct, damage, and sustain that you need all in one build.

Liza.2758:

somehow im disappointed that it’s coming from vee wee

encourage easy condi play instead of power ……. really bro

It’s not a rallying call against condi builds, it’s a criticism that the current options don’t yield themselves to practical use in a PVP environment. I’m finding Condi’s nice in PVE right now, not as good as power but good enough to not feel bad using them, but that hinges greatly on immobile enemies standing in Napalm/Firebomb. Take that out and well, I’d feel bad using them.

He’s right, though I really don’t want to see changes to the kits that destroy the nice options we have right now with them. Each kit has a purpose for specific skills. I’d love to see some lesser used skills, or maybe even lesser used utilities bumped up to help create this type of build but I don’t want them to devour one build to try and create another. I’d be very sad to lose the power damage of Acid bomb to give it a burning effect for example.

i don’t agree, classic balthazar rabid build with nades, pp , toolkit and elixir S is viable for me . Are power builds better ? in my opinion it depends on who are you fighting against. There are some cases where p/p rabid is really strong ( like against ranger) … other where it is really hard ( necro and condi mesmer for example ) … it depends. Celestial rifle is a more general build … you have not something you can not win like with condi against a necro .. but p/p rabid for me remain strong.

Casia.4281:

Often this talk doesn’t clarify wvw, pve, or spvp..
Pve
FT is good without juggernaut. Might is really easy to come by these days.
Naplam is a 10s fire field. strong burning by itself, esp on a stationary target. But also, providing a TON of procs from mortar 1, or blast combos.
Airblast extends all sources of burning on a target. (yours at least, dunno multiplayer interaction) But a cond engi can be running 14-20 stacks of burning at a given time.
In sinister gear, fireblast is.. ok. not great, not horrible. Better then most autoattacks.
I never did mathout how well flamejet preforms…

2s burn on a 2.5s attack. 10 hits, 4hits/s.. 2.25coef , .225 each, .9coef/s with .8s of burning.
hrm. just reading that, thats better then frag shot. esp with added sharpshooter procs.
10% extra vs burning and 98% burning duration.. .99coef/s, and 1.58s of burning/second.

Mortar 1 through a firefield is .8 every .8s with 1s of burning. or 1coef/s with 1.25s of burning. (10% explosives is super inconsistant, 2.475s burning/s)

Incendiary ammo is still mediocre, even fixed. CD is just way too high.

Swapping flamejet in for frag shot, and with IA fixed, the 11000dps estimate should go up to like 12000+ for my pve cond build.

But should note, do also agree explosives teir 1 sucks.

FT in pvp. the firefields are much less useful give line and size. the airblast knockback/reflect is great however. Targeting of flamejet makes it near useless as a skill.

I was referring to SPvP. Also the targeting of Flame Jet has only ever been an issue up/down stairs, otherwise I hit with Flame Jet and Flame Blast more often than I hit with all 3 of my wild grenades.

Hello frands! I feel like we deviated from the original topic a little bit! If you made a condi build that works for you in solo queues, that’s great! I’m all for playing fun builds in solo queues and I’ve made and shared dozens of them pre patch! Against tournament players or against known names and long time good GW2 PvPers, a random HgH FT build or some EG Mortar build just won’t cut it! You’re going to have to run a good build to be competitive against these good players!

Now the point of this thread is that the Engineer absolutely relies on its explosive kits to have any kind of offensive pressure because that’s the way the utilities were made! However the explosives trait line is extremely power oriented! As I mentioned many times before, condi builds not taking Grenade Kit have no option in tier 1, and condi builds that don’t run Bomb Kit have no option in tier 2! This basically kills condi builds for the Engi as they are forced to run explosive kits without the accompanying trait line! Imagine running a signet Necro without the spite tree or a meditation Guardian without the valor tree! While I’m happy that power Engis finally have their chance to shine, I’m disappointed that it came at the condi Engi’s expense!

I also suggested an alternative to stop the explosives pigeonholing! Since the firearms tree is the Engineer’s condi tree, I suggested that we take the two firearm kits, the Flamethrower and Elixir Gun, and convert them into the Engineer’s condition weapons! Basically power Engis will run explosive kits as their main weapons while condition Engis run the FT and EG similar to how power Necros run dagger while condi Necros run scepter! However this route would need to overhaul the kits and their respective traits! Bomb Kit would need adjustments as it’s currently absolutely worthless in any power build and the FT would need to be more condition oriented as it’s currently a power kit (and a bad one at that)! The EG would also need to deal more condition pressure as spamming Tranquilizer Dart is just… lackluster without anything to back it up!

Hope that cleared some things up! Wahoo! Bye frands!

I like your thinking but again, the idea of losing EG’s Acid Bomb in power builds just rubs me the wrong way. The drop/quick cancel is much of the fun of running that rotation. Without it the PVE power build would become much more dull.

I understand the issues with PVP, but killing the fun of PVE for it… sorry but no thanks.

ellesee.8297:

I also suggested an alternative to stop the explosives pigeonholing! Since the firearms tree is the Engineer’s condi tree, I suggested that we take the two firearm kits, the Flamethrower and Elixir Gun, and convert them into the Engineer’s condition weapons! Basically power Engis will run explosive kits as their main weapons while condition Engis run the FT and EG similar to how power Necros run dagger while condi Necros run scepter! However this route would need to overhaul the kits and their respective traits! Bomb Kit would need adjustments as it’s currently absolutely worthless in any power build and the FT would need to be more condition oriented as it’s currently a power kit (and a bad one at that)! The EG would also need to deal more condition pressure as spamming Tranquilizer Dart is just… lackluster without anything to back it up!

Hope that cleared some things up! Wahoo! Bye frands!

Baka baka. You haven’t learnt the power of the combo between FT and EG.

When you use FT’s Incendiary Ammo, combo it with Poison volley then immediately switch to EG and spam the auto attack. Classes that have skills to cleanse 2 conditions will just keep cleansing the Bleed and Weakness they won’t be able to touch the burning because you just keep covering it. And since you also apply vuln on crit if you take heavy armour exploit, that will add to the amount of cover condis you can have.

^On the other hand, if you have a high stack of bleeding and burning, switch to EG and use fumigate, the person cleansing will mostly cleanse the poison and vuln and hopefully you don’t crit and proc the bleeds from sharpshooter. Vuln now increases condition damage, don’t forget that.

Jerus.4350:

I like your thinking but again, the idea of losing EG’s Acid Bomb in power builds just rubs me the wrong way. The drop/quick cancel is much of the fun of running that rotation. Without it the PVE power build would become much more dull.

I understand the issues with PVP, but killing the fun of PVE for it… sorry but no thanks.

PvE has been killing the fun of PvP since launch! You’ll survive!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

The problem is they took condi traits and power traits and kinda scrambled them between firearms and explosives randomly.

Short fuse and shrapnel do not belong in explosives. Arguably siege rounds neither.
High caliber, no scope suck anyway but even if they weren’t so bad they don’t belong in firearms.

tl;dr The dps traits are a huge mess and seem to be made and combined randomly.

ellesee.8297:

Jerus.4350:

I like your thinking but again, the idea of losing EG’s Acid Bomb in power builds just rubs me the wrong way. The drop/quick cancel is much of the fun of running that rotation. Without it the PVE power build would become much more dull.

I understand the issues with PVP, but killing the fun of PVE for it… sorry but no thanks.

PvE has been killing the fun of PvP since launch! You’ll survive!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

PVP has been killing the fun of PVE since launch! You’ll survive!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

robertul.3679:

The problem is they took condi traits and power traits and kinda scrambled them between firearms and explosives randomly.

Short fuse and shrapnel do not belong in explosives. Arguably siege rounds neither.
High caliber, no scope suck anyway but even if they weren’t so bad they don’t belong in firearms.

tl;dr The dps traits are a huge mess and seem to be made and combined randomly.

short fuse is what makes fire bomb a viable fire field for blasting might :/

without short fuse, youre gonna miss your might stacking every time and youll switch to ft for napalms long duration instead, which is a mistake against trash that is blindable.

…and im counting on forceful explosives getting fixed…….

OK I had to do that, but seriously, acid bomb getting Condi, well it’s unnecessary, a field damage of fire when you’re complaining about bomb’s condi focus? You’d be pigeon holeing yourself into the same thing.

I’m in FULL support of adjusting the other skills to have a more condi basis that’s more conducive to the PVP environment, but leave the strengths for power alone.

Make kits versatile. In a condi build you utilize Fumigate, Elixir F, and Tranq Dart, while in Power you drop your acid bomb.

No need to ruin power builds to create condi builds.

Give Battering Ram some strong condi effect maybe? Make Gadgets a condi thing. Remove the silly turret change and simply move them more towards an active role, wher their base attack is weak damage, but their activates are quicker with some different pressure. Give P/P a stand alone strength worth using.

I don’t know, there’s a lot of options without completely destroying power builds.

ellesee.8297:

Hello frands! I feel like we deviated from the original topic a little bit! If you made a condi build that works for you in solo queues, that’s great! I’m all for playing fun builds in solo queues and I’ve made and shared dozens of them pre patch! Against tournament players or against known names and long time good GW2 PvPers, a random HgH FT build or some EG Mortar build just won’t cut it! You’re going to have to run a good build to be competitive against these good players!

Now the point of this thread is that the Engineer absolutely relies on its explosive kits to have any kind of offensive pressure because that’s the way the utilities were made! However the explosives trait line is extremely power oriented! As I mentioned many times before, condi builds not taking Grenade Kit have no option in tier 1, and condi builds that don’t run Bomb Kit have no option in tier 2! This basically kills condi builds for the Engi as they are forced to run explosive kits without the accompanying trait line! Imagine running a signet Necro without the spite tree or a meditation Guardian without the valor tree! While I’m happy that power Engis finally have their chance to shine, I’m disappointed that it came at the condi Engi’s expense!

I also suggested an alternative to stop the explosives pigeonholing! Since the firearms tree is the Engineer’s condi tree, I suggested that we take the two firearm kits, the Flamethrower and Elixir Gun, and convert them into the Engineer’s condition weapons! Basically power Engis will run explosive kits as their main weapons while condition Engis run the FT and EG similar to how power Necros run dagger while condi Necros run scepter! However this route would need to overhaul the kits and their respective traits! Bomb Kit would need adjustments as it’s currently absolutely worthless in any power build and the FT would need to be more condition oriented as it’s currently a power kit (and a bad one at that)! The EG would also need to deal more condition pressure as spamming Tranquilizer Dart is just… lackluster without anything to back it up!

Hope that cleared some things up! Wahoo! Bye frands!

If you take nades without explosive trait, for me at least they work well. I usually play with nades and firearms only ( on condi buidl) and i don’t feel so weak . In my opinion now granadeer is not a “must” for playing with nades so the old nades, toolkit + elixir S or EG or SS is quite viable with rabid .
this is what i am playing :
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-ZRR;2cPVg0l6cQ-x0;9;4jkm;0038157248;9;1cV19cV192T
Kinematic is quite situational so if you want you can take perma vigor from tools and trade adventurer rune for something else … for example balthazar

Obviously if you run a condi build without the explosives tree it will be better! That’s the whole point of the thread! The explosives trait line is just too power oriented that if you take it in a condi build, it will actually hurt your build! But the issue is that the explosive kits are the best offensive kits the Engi has and so you are forced to run explosive kits without the accompanying trait line! That’s just the way the class is designed! Imagine a meditations Guardian without the valor line! It’s terrible!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

ellesee.8297:

Obviously if you run a condi build without the explosives tree it will be better! That’s the whole point of the thread! The explosives trait line is just too power oriented that if you take it in a condi build, it will actually hurt your build! But the issue is that the explosive kits are the best offensive kits the Engi has and so you are forced to run explosive kits without the accompanying trait line! That’s just the way the class is designed! Imagine a meditations Guardian without the valor line! It’s terrible!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

I don’t feel nades weak without explosive trait line. It seems to me quite good … so i don’t feel this like a great issue

ellesee.8297:

Unlike other classes, the Engi’s best method of dealing both condition and power damage comes from one source: its explosive kits! The issue is that the trait line that increases the potency of the explosive kits is so incredibly power oriented that taking it in a condi build would actually hurt your build because of weak traits! For example a condi build that doesn’t use the Grenade Kit has only reduced fall damage and 5% increased power damage to choose from! Both are incredibly worthless in a condi build! A condi build that doesn’t run Bomb Kit has to choose between a power burst proc trait or another increased power damage trait! Again, both are worthless in a condi build! This wouldn’t be an issue if the Engineer didn’t rely so much on its explosive kits to be competitive against anyone even remotely good at the game! But such is the way of Anet balance!

I recommended a few changes in a previous thread! I recommended combining Explosive Decent with Grenadier to free up a slot for a condi trait in tier 1! I recommended removing the Glass Cannon trait and moving Shaped Charge down to tier 1 and increasing its damage increase to 7-10%! This would free up a slot for a condi trait in tier 2 and keep the PvE-ers happy because they don’t lose much or any damage output!

Right now aside from a few gimmicky burn builds and extremely weak explosive builds, condi Engis are out! I feel these changes would help them not be so low tier! Anet plz help!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

I would not change anything, in fact, I would just keep quiet and hope anet does not look at it at all. Why ?

Well, I play everything except ranger. And I have been trying out a LOT of condi builds on all the professions I play (as I said, not ranger), and lemme tell you. We (meanign Engis) are a HUGE chunk ahead of everyone else when it comes to condi deeps. Any further “improvement” will put us absolutely over the top, we’ll be completely broken. And I sure as hell don’t want A-net to look and “normalize” us to the levels of other professions. Seriously. Am enjoying my engi right now too much for that to happen.

Sigh! Clearly posting here is pointless! Enjoy your solo queue builds then! Meanwhile at the high levels, condi Engi will continue to be useless!

Wahoo! Bye frands!