Guild Wars 2

I know that currently engineers are considered a staple for condition builds in PvE and I know why. The build with kit juggling provides some good dps and decent condi burst with burning stacking. I heard that progressing teams are stacking engineers when filling condition spots in their raids. But one thing keeps bugging me and that is a spreadsheet dps vs real dps. So far for the most part a lot of bosses in PvE content were fairly stationary and were often stacked on and then zerked. This is where it worked.

But I am looking at the nature of first boss in new raid wing and I keep wondering. How much of the potential dps I am loosing when boss is constantly moving, I keep running to green circles all the time and also dodging of sparks is so important. Blowtorch has a close melee range requirement. Granades and napalm are ground targeted effects which are much more difficult to land continuously when everything around you is moving. Pistol auto-attack is rather weak (and you are not supposed to us it that much anyway). Considering that while dodging and running and perhaps CC-ing sparks I need to juggle between my kits and land several ground-shots on moving boss, it just make me wonder how much of the potential dps I am loosing. On a static fractal boss with condi engineer I can maintain 20-25 stacks of bleeding from shrapnel and several stacks of burning for the most part. It works there and engineer wins.

And that is great but look how many buttons I must press and also at how I need to stay almost in my target melee range. While for example with my scepter necro I can maintain constantly around 25 stacks of bleeding by… doing nothing aside from staying in 900 range. All that comes just from scepter auto-attack which means I dont even need to press any button and any other skills I may use is just a nice damage bonus.

Now of course you may say that this is matter of harder vs easier and L2P is in order. But a serious question. How many of you can maintain a nearly perfect rotation on your kit swapping engi, when so many enviromental factors are in place? Lets assume that a perfect playing engi will do 100% of certain damage. Auto-attack spamming necro may do 75% of that damage but engi with the “rotation” all over the place may do 50%. Am I looking at this wrong? For me it a matter of choosing for which character I should craft my ascended condition armor and for the resons outlined above I can’t decide yet. There is of course a case of added utility aside from raw damage and engineer brings superior break-bar destruction and better team support. But at the same time necro is king of boon stripping and that is also something that is needed in new raid.

Awe.1096:

How many of you can maintain a nearly perfect rotation on your kit swapping engi, when so many enviromental factors are in place? Lets assume that a perfect playing engi will do 100% of certain damage. Auto-attack spamming necro may do 75% of that damage but engi with the “rotation” all over the place may do 50%. Am I looking at this wrong?

i cant. but i can get ~75% of the way there. and for the record, the autoing necro does more like 25% of the damage i can do. unless hes piggybacking off my aoes with good epidemics (to bring him to at least ~100% of my damage).

Of course you are losing some damage in raids, but

Every build will lose dps in harder content or against boss that move. Warrior can’t make their 100B, Boofire on Condi Ranger won’t be perfect, field of a condi Elementalist won’t stay, mobs won’t stay in a Guardian symbol, etc, etc. Now we can argue how much all of those lose dps, but that’s hard because it depend on every single players and encounter.

For exemple, you may lose dps because you dodge a lot seekers and the lighting circle, but someone else can just walk between seeker and walk out of the lighting circle with the right timing, limiting the amount of time he need to dodge. Someone can be on the lighting circle team, but the same build can be used on the dps party, which can concentrate on their rotation more. Someone can have a good tank that will keep the boss from moving all around so he can stay more in your fields.

Keep in mind that most of the more powerful condi build Engineer, Elementalist and Ranger all have the same problem. Ranger is a little bit less affected outside of boonfire, but if he have to move to a circle, he doesn’t have a great range at all. Elementalist is the worst since most burning come from field, but with a great tank and good timing, that can be mitigated.

Necromancer just don’t cut it. Yep he could keep more bleed than engineer can in harder fight against a moving boss. But you just can’t compare the burning, nor the direct damage than the current condi engineer build is doing. If Dhuumfire hadn’t been nerf long ago, maybe a condition necromancer could be something worth using in raids. Maybe not as much dps as an engineer in the perfect condition, but comparable in dps in a hard fight. But as thing are now? I doudt it, even if I could be wrong.

Why are you running into green circles? You need only 4 ppl go in, rest focuses fully on DPS. Letting your biggest dps classes running around is immense waste of DPS.

Necro isn’t even the boon striping king… mesmer can probably do it way better in the raid. Mesmer can use remove boon on shatter, gs 3, sword auto and even just get 3 sword clones auto attacking and they will remove the boon very fast and easily. Also if they really wanted to they could run arcane thievery and null field but that would be completely unnecessary. AAAAND if you got a condi necro for vale guard you’re gonna want it to be on the condi boss not the boon striping boss where you will probably already have a mesmer there. Lastly if i could get about the same condi dmg from both condi engi and condi necro i would way rather play condi engi because it would be way more fun then just spamming 1 the whole raid.

Condi engi is traditionally on the lightning team because of their point blank aoe CCs, like big ol’ bomb and blasting their healing turret, which keeps the seeker orbs away from the lightning team while they sit in the green circle.

I agree, though, it is extremely difficult to succeed at 4-kit engi during the raid boss encounter. For me, this is probably because I have been using a simpler 2-kit, 2-elixir rifle build lately, but I do main engi and started off using pistol/pistol, so I wouldn’t say that condi engi is unfamiliar territory.

However, with all that being said, engineers have access to a ton of burning applications, and incendiary powder is arguably the best condi trait in the game.
So while I agree that few of us are reaching our full DPS potential due to the high difficulty and steep learning curve, condi engi is second to none when it’s played well.

hotcarl.8621:

So while I agree that few of us are reaching our full DPS potential due to the high difficulty and steep learning curve, condi engi is second to none when it’s played well.

When it comes to condi damage, it seems like -in a practical scenario- berserker surpasses engi based on the footage I saw so far. That said, as long as you have slick shoes eating break bars the way it currently does…

Destabilizator.2789:

Why are you running into green circles? You need only 4 ppl go in, rest focuses fully on DPS. Letting your biggest dps classes running around is immense waste of DPS.

THIS. Your guild needs to prioritize their range dps and healers on green circles, and let you do your job. Just dps and ignore boss mechanics.

Well not all mechanics, try to avoid blue orbs, but for the most part, your guild should have someone else (another more weaker dps or a healer druid or a ranger or thief ) Get the green circles.

If your guild thinks you are being lazy, they may not realize that condition engineer is probably the highest sustain burst dps in pve at the moment. Engineers are amazing dps but they need to be baby sit while other classes do the mechanics.

I know i sound arrogant sorry, but engineer is really a good dps. The only “RARE” difference is if you are a healer, aoe engineer – with inventions, healing power toughness vitality, boon duration and alchemy inventions med kit and you focus on healing the raid. Then i can see you be put on green circle duty. But as it is…..

Guilds who are casual WILL NOT have it easy at raiding, but guilds who understand class strengths and min max, will have a good chance at raiding.

THis is my opinion, so i might be wrong, but it’s my experience so far.

insanemaniac.2456:

i can get ~75% of the way there. and for the record, the autoing necro does more like 25% of the damage i can do. unless hes piggybacking off my aoes with good epidemics (to bring him to at least ~100% of my damage).

you did the math, did you?

Umm I hate to be that guy but this thread is a lot of learn to play type issues.

You can do an almost perfect condi rotation on 4 kit engi while running green lightning. When no circle is up run close and use Blowtorch/Firebomb and nade/mortar as you run to the circle. As a p/p condi engi you should 100% be doing lightning since the other condi classes do far less ranged damage than a condi engi does.

Every successful group I have seen uses 2 p/p engis on VG and they always run green circles.

Also to make hitting with nades/mortar/napalm MUCH MUCH easier make sure you select “Lock ground target to target” option in the menu. This allows you to run any direction and still hit with nades/mortar if you are within range.

rogerwilko.6895:

insanemaniac.2456:

i can get ~75% of the way there. and for the record, the autoing necro does more like 25% of the damage i can do. unless hes piggybacking off my aoes with good epidemics (to bring him to at least ~100% of my damage).

you did the math, did you?

think about it for 2 seconds. jesus.

Yea, in a lot of fights like Vale Guardian (if you’re on lightning circle duty), your actual DPS can easily be far off your theoretical, potential DPS. This kinda stuff hits engineers the hardest since you often don’t have an auto-attack to fill any gaps between casting abilities and being slightly off on your grenade throws can either reduce the damage they deal or completely negate it.

I’ve actually switched to running burn condi on my war largely because of this. It’s often a lot easier to keep up a solid rotation and if you get stuck at long range, you’re not punished as much. An added benefit is that I can swap between Phalanx Strength and Condi easily, depending on the group make-up.

Dahkeus.8243:

Yea, in a lot of fights like Vale Guardian (if you’re on lightning circle duty), your actual DPS can easily be far off your theoretical, potential DPS. This kinda stuff hits engineers the hardest since you often don’t have an auto-attack to fill any gaps between casting abilities

This is completely backwards. The more long cooldown hard hitting skills you have, the less you are hurt by missing out on a few seconds of DPS. You drop auto attacks out of your rotation and then your big nukes are available again when you’re back in range. As a condi engy, you can throw grenades and mortars from nearly anywhere as filler while you are running to green circles.

You’ll obviously lose some DPS because you end up delaying Blowtorch and Fire Bomb etkittenil you are back in range, but compared to somebody who relies on the AA to do damage (like a dhuumfire necro or a Sword Rev) you fare far better in terms of DPS lost.

Use napalm @ breakbar moments, trait nades, use scrapper isntead of tools and you’ll be fine.