Guild Wars 2

Elixir guns super elixir I’m not too sure about, I’ve heard reports that it removes a condition on the initial hit, but that could be due to cleansing formula. Certainly, its not on the description on the skill.

But lets take a list of the things that do remove conditions:

Elixir gun, Elixirs, Antidote from Med kit, Overcharge from Healing turret.

Now, two of those are very bad at the role of ‘condition removal’, and a light field is not much use to an engineer, since it relies on either someone shooting behind you and getting a 20% chance to remove one from you OR someone using a whirl finisher.

Its not reliable condition removal if it is not down to your skill or your own terms.

If I go turrets?
If I go for kit builds?
If I go for gadget builds?

Saying that something like rifle and rocket boots remove conditions is a bit misleading, since the ‘condition removal’ is there for cases of mobility, not for cases of where you are full on with poison, bleeding and burning and you are ticking away quickly.

The fact remains: You brought up things like Transmute, Fumigate and Light fields which either do not remove any conditions from you or are extremely unreliable.

The only good and reliable condition removal is guess where… elixirs. That is pigeonholing.

Having a 3% chance to remove conditions does not mean that you are suddenly equally good at removing conditions as someone with a full elixir build.

Nor does what the med kit and healing turret offer. Their condition removal is unreliable and poor.

And so, in conclusion you need to learn that: pigeonhole does not mean “you don’t have any” as you claimed.

“We cannot remove conditions”- quote from you sarcastically mocking the OP.
Pigeonholing means being forced into only a single area, build or way of playing to get a certain thing. In the case of condition removal, engineers are pigeonholed into elixir builds. This means that they do HAVE it- read that-, engineers do have condition removal.

But the problem is, good and reliable condition removal has only one build choice, and that is elixirs.

I could be totally wrong, but I thought I saw people removing conditions when firing through a Sticky Glue Bomb I dropped during an event in Orr last night. I’m not sure how glue could cleanse you, but hey, if it works….

Talvis.5264:

I could be totally wrong, but I thought I saw people removing conditions when firing through a Sticky Glue Bomb I dropped during an event in Orr last night. I’m not sure how glue could cleanse you, but hey, if it works….

It doesn’t though, glue bomb isn’t a combo field.

I don’t see the problem here. You don’t NEED an easy option to remove conditions under normal circumstances in PvE, and only supports should be focusing on it in PvP and if you are going support as an Engineer you are speccing for elixirs anyway. The normal options for removing conditions are more than enough to suit the needs of the engineer.

I want more condition removal, but focused condition removal. As in burn, poison, bleed, and confusion.

We actually have good condition removal when it comes to chill, immob, and cripple outside of elixir use.

But any change to the current system where elixir C, and a 409 elixir build are mandatory would be welcome.

You can try to use elixir gun, but the light fields work more for group condition removal rather than self, and without 3-4 fields down they just are not effective enough, that a people love to toss wells and AoE on them to negate the effects.

I would like to have a version or elixir C or the 409 trait tied into a kit, like bomb kit, ft, grenade kit, or even onto gadgets.

Conditions are powerful enough I do not feel I have a choice in taking elixir C or not.

What I’m getting from this thread is that people want an ability that completely shuts down or near shutdown of Condition Spam specs. They want the best condition removal abilities, without the need to spec into our condition removal tree. Think of it like this, as I’ll give a very simple example. Elementalist NEED to spec into Water Magic in order for them to shut down Condition Spammers much like we NEED to spec into Alchemy for that. The only other example I can think of is how Mesmers need 30 Inspiration in order to have a short reliable cooldown.

Now, let’s look at the other callings’ “Elixir C” like abilities. Ones that are able to strip all conditions from you in a single key stroke.

*Mesmer. Arcane Thievery. 45 second cooldown. Sends all conditions to your opponent while absorbing all their boons.
*Necromancer. Signet of Plague. 60 second cooldown. Sends all your conditions to your opponent.
*Ranger. Signet of Renewal. 60 second cooldown. Your pet absorbs all conditions from you and nearby allies.
*Warrior. Signet of Stamina. 45 second cooldown. Cures all conditions.
*Guardian. Contemplation of Purity. 60 second cooldown. Converts all conditions into boons.
*Thief. No such skill.
*Elementalist. No such skill.

If you take a look at the list, you will see that nearly all the professions (6/8) have abilities that they can take into battle which removes all conditions on cooldowns ranging from 40 seconds to 60 seconds. They too need to spec into a tree in order to get reliable condition spec, they too need to bring other abilities that removes conditions from them. If we want to nullify other specs main way of dealing damage, we need to spec against that.

We can’t have our cake and eat it too.

Aristio.2784:

What I’m getting from this thread is that people want an ability that completely shuts down or near shutdown of Condition Spam specs. They want the best condition removal abilities, without the need to spec into our condition removal tree. Think of it like this, as I’ll give a very simple example. Elementalist NEED to spec into Water Magic in order for them to shut down Condition Spammers much like we NEED to spec into Alchemy for that. The only other example I can think of is how Mesmers need 30 Inspiration in order to have a short reliable cooldown.

Well, I think you got the thread wrong then. The title seems pretty clear though.

No, elementalists don’t need to spec into water to have a reliable condition remover. They get one for each weapon.
No, mesmers don’t need 30 points into inspiration to get a decent condition remover, they only need one utility skill. But, contrary to Engineers, their utility slots don’t replace their secondary weapon set. Yeah, we basically have to replace 5 SKILLS FOR 1 CONDITION REMOVER.

Now, let’s look at the other callings’ “Elixir C” like abilities. Ones that are able to strip all conditions from you in a single key stroke.

*Mesmer. Arcane Thievery. 45 second cooldown. Sends all conditions to your opponent while absorbing all their boons.
*Necromancer. Signet of Plague. 60 second cooldown. Sends all your conditions to your opponent.
*Ranger. Signet of Renewal. 60 second cooldown. Your pet absorbs all conditions from you and nearby allies.
*Warrior. Signet of Stamina. 45 second cooldown. Cures all conditions.
*Guardian. Contemplation of Purity. 60 second cooldown. Converts all conditions into boons.
*Thief. No such skill.
*Elementalist. No such skill.

You forgot some.
Mesmer for example has Null Field, basically the same as Elixir C but AOE.

Plus you forgot to mention ALL THOSE SKILLS/UTILITIES have a secondary utility.
– Mesmer’s Thievery is also a boon stripper (“omagad a guardian booned to the bone” slurp)
– Necro’s signet is also a passive condition hoover: it transfers conditions from allies to you, making the active ability, the one you mention, a little more…OMAGAD.
But anyway, their main condition remover IS NOT THAT SIGNET. It’s their most popular heal, “Consume conditions”, 25 sec cd, removes all conditions and heals more for each condition removed.
You can’t get better any better than that at removing conditions T.T
– Ranger’s signet also has a passive condition removal every ten seconds. Plus it’s a stun break.
– Warrior’s signet also has a passive that increases endurance regen by 50%.
– Guardian’s is also a stun break. And most guardians will prefer Signet of resolve for his passive condition removal.

So you have all those “a la Elixir C” condition removers who are also useful when you don’t have conditions.
And you have elixir C: what does it do except remove conditions? the tool belt skill? Yipeee, a random 5sec boon every 30sec!
If AT LEAST Elixir C was a stun breaker…Nope, I have to sacrifice the 5 skills of a kit for a skill that does NOTHING BUT REMOVE CONDITIONS. Oh, the dilemna.

If you take a look at the list, you will see that nearly all the professions (6/8) have abilities that they can take into battle which removes all conditions on cooldowns ranging from 40 seconds to 60 seconds. They too need to spec into a tree in order to get reliable condition spec, they too need to bring other abilities that removes conditions from them. If we want to nullify other specs main way of dealing damage, we need to spec against that.

We can’t have our cake and eat it too.

Hmm, again, I can’t agree. Most classes have a very decent built-in condition remover.

And Warrior has condition removal with its heal (2 conditions)
And Thief has condition removal with its heal (burn+bleed+poison+stealth)
And Necro has condition removal with its heal (all of them, what the heck)
And Guardian has condition removal with its heal (passive, see above).
And Ranger has condition removal with its heal (Healing Spring), not the most popular but they have that All-In-One Active/passive Condition removal/stun break/Coffee Maker signet anyway (The one you mention)
And Elem has condition removal with its heal (Ether renewal), once again not the most popular, but they have at least one condition removal for each and every choice of weapon. Check it. (Phoenix, Healing Rain, Magnetic Wave…)

(I copy/pasted a lot there, I admit :p).
But we have one too! we have Med Kit “Drop Antidote”! (/sarcasm)

And I didn’t even mention traits. Do I need to in order to make a point?

P.S: The cake is a lie

Yeah let them have their signets that remove a condition every 10 sec. That will do next to nothing. What are they going to do? remove my bleed? It just ticked for 140 multiple times in thelast 9 seconds, the signet tics and removes it, and my next auto attacks instantly starts stacking it again.

You mean that 2s bleed from your pistol?
yeah, good luck stacking that. But that’s another topic.
You wanna use elixir U to “quickness stack”? well those stacks disappeared right in the middle of your quickness, and from 10+ stacks you should normally get, there’s only 5 on your target now. Talk about wasting cd’s.
Later in the fight, that 10sec poison/burn you had so much trouble applying, poof, gone after 2 ticks.
Those pestering stacks of mesmer confusion keeping you from attacking? poof, gone, never will go over 2-3 stacks.
Those 20+ sec of bleed from the thief Death Blossom? poof, gone after a few secs, without doing anything. 5 seconds later he comes back and stacks again? 5 seconds later those stacks are gone.

Basically it’s the effect of Cleaning Formula 409, without having to use elixirs and waste gcd’s and/or elixirs, without having to spec into elixirs, without having to slot elixirs in the first place.
Just. One. Little. Passive.

Prelude.3817:

-Snip-

I made a point to purposely leave out Null Field as it’s a pulse Condition Remover, and as such I would have to list Well of Power too. The ones I stated above are instant removers, with added bonuses. If you want to directly compare Guardian’s condition remover to our own, you also have to take into consideration that while their’s is a Stun Breaker, we also have a 20 second shorter recast on ours.

Sure, our Med Kit is a bit of a hassle to deal with just for 1 Condition Removal (I wish it removed two), but as with anything, there is the pros and cons. One of the biggest pros I say about slotting the Med Kit for the Antidote is that we don’t blow our entire healing cooldown just for a Condition Remover.

I also can’t help to bring up this specific point either:

No, mesmers don’t need 30 points into inspiration to get a decent condition remover, they only need one utility skill. But, contrary to Engineers, their utility slots don’t replace their secondary weapon set. Yeah, we basically have to replace 5 SKILLS FOR 1 CONDITION REMOVER.

Why do you first say that they only need one utility slot, when we get the same exact utility slot taken up for Elixir C? (On a 5 second short cooldown and don’t need any sort of target either) I was simply stating for a continuous, reliable, and short cooldown condition remover, both Mesmer and Engineer need to trait for it.

I would also like to point out that while Elementalist can spec for a maximum of two Condition Removers on their Weapons (Scepter/Daggger or Scepter/Focus) only one of them is accessible reliably (Phoenix), while the secondary condition remover has to be actively swapped to for, (Cleansing Wave or Magnetic Wave), which in turn would swap them out of their most damaging attunement, locking them in said Element for at minimum, 10 seconds.

First off, at least have the facts straight. The signets only activate every 10 seconds, not 5. Secondly, it only removes one of many conditions I add.

I can simply toss out an super elixir, that I can keep up 100% of the time, and have the opportunity to remove any and all conditions instantly as the come, just by fighting like normal with my weapon, and get a heal tick to boot.

Every class does need to do everything the exact same way.

It is called diversity, and most of us like it. We do not need to remove conditions exactly like every other class.

If it is that bad to you, feel free to go play those classes. Otherwise, it is a bit selfish to sit here “claiming” and insinuating we need to do it just like they do, because you feel it fits your personal desires, wants, and style of play.

The options we have work great, can be very efficient and effective,

A great many thing work uniquely for the engineer over all the other classes , that is the appeal of the class. If that does not particularly appeal to you, then perhaps it is as simple as you playing another class, which is a much more logical manner of going about this, over the option of changing it to suit you, which is what you appear to e pushing hard on this thread thus far.

This is just the nature of the game design. A lot of this game is rock paper scissors, whether you like it or not. There are ways to get minor condition removal in most builds, as two of our healing abilities remove conditions too. But if you want to be a good ’nade or turret engineer with a ton of condition removal, too, best of luck. That would seemingly break the game, imo.

Aristio.2784:

Prelude.3817:

-Snip-

I made a point to purposely leave out Null Field as it’s a pulse Condition Remover, and as such I would have to list Well of Power too. The ones I stated above are instant removers, with added bonuses. If you want to directly compare Guardian’s condition remover to our own, you also have to take into consideration that while their’s is a Stun Breaker, we also have a 20 second shorter recast on ours.

So let’s agree they’re at least equal utility wise. I was merely comparing those cause you did in the first place, it’s not the best example anyway since Guardians barely use it and have many other condition removal options, their healing signet being one good example.

Sure, our Med Kit is a bit of a hassle to deal with just for 1 Condition Removal (I wish it removed two), but as with anything, there is the pros and cons. One of the biggest pros I say about slotting the Med Kit for the Antidote is that we don’t blow our entire healing cooldown just for a Condition Remover.

I suppose you refer to Healing turret Engineer wise, or the multiple examples of condition removal heals I mentionned: well, if you have multiple conditions on you you surely will need to heal in the next few seconds, so it’s “2 birds in 1 stone” isn’t it?

I will too propose one of the biggest cons of Antidote. Too slow: you open med kit, you use the skill, you walk over the bottle. If you’re fast you can do it in 2 secs, presuming your enemy let you. For only one condition. Chances are you got beat up pretty hard during those 2 secs (some specs will kill you in 2 secs ><)

I also can’t help to bring up this specific point either:

No, mesmers don’t need 30 points into inspiration to get a decent condition remover, they only need one utility skill. But, contrary to Engineers, their utility slots don’t replace their secondary weapon set. Yeah, we basically have to replace 5 SKILLS FOR 1 CONDITION REMOVER.

Why do you first say that they only need one utility slot, when we get the same exact utility slot taken up for Elixir C? (On a 5 second short cooldown and don’t need any sort of target either) I was simply stating for a continuous, reliable, and short cooldown condition remover, both Mesmer and Engineer need to trait for it.

.

Answer to that is in the rest of the quote, i.e the importance of utility slots for Engineers. And for that precise example, I can add the secondary use of said slot, that I refer to in the next paragraph of my post.

I would also like to point out that while Elementalist can spec for a maximum of two Condition Removers on their Weapons (Scepter/Daggger or Scepter/Focus) only one of them is accessible reliably (Phoenix), while the secondary condition remover has to be actively swapped to for, (Cleansing Wave or Magnetic Wave), which in turn would swap them out of their most damaging attunement, locking them in said Element for at minimum, 10 seconds.

Well, it’s still better than slowly dying from conditions.
At least Eles have a built-in option, completly independant from the choice of utility skills.

coglin.1496:

First off, at least have the facts straight. The signets only activate every 10 seconds, not 5. Secondly, it only removes one of many conditions I add.

The facts are straight, those are from personal experience and can happen to anyone. Never talked about a 5sec activation, you misread the example.

I can simply toss out an super elixir, that I can keep up 100% of the time, and have the opportunity to remove any and all conditions instantly as the come, just by fighting like normal with my weapon, and get a heal tick to boot.

I beg to differ.
You realize the light field+projectile combo doesn’t work everytime the indication appears? it still has a 20% chance linked to the projectile. I mentionned it in one of my earlier posts I believe.

The options we have work great, can be very efficient and effective,

I don’t agree with that, that’s what we are all discussing in this topic.
“Efficient and effective” can be subjective appreciations related to your own experience, and can be subject to discussion, especially when you compare with other classes.
You can expose arguments of your own, but attacking me personally is not one.

Prelude.3817:

I beg to differ.
You realize the light field+projectile combo doesn’t work everytime the indication appears? it still has a 20% chance linked to the projectile. I mentionned it in one of my earlier posts I believe.

I think he meant that Super Elixir removes conditions both from the application and combo bonus. With Fireforged Trigger and Kit Refinement, you can have a 100% uptime on the skill which again, removes conditions.

Aristio.2784:

Prelude.3817:

I beg to differ.
You realize the light field+projectile combo doesn’t work everytime the indication appears? it still has a 20% chance linked to the projectile. I mentionned it in one of my earlier posts I believe.

I think he meant that Super Elixir removes conditions both from the application and combo bonus. With Fireforged Trigger and Kit Refinement, you can have a 100% uptime on the skill which again, removes conditions.

It removes one on application, lets not get ahead of ourselves.

Yes it removes one on application and not just for me but for everyone in the area, as well everyone in the fight shooting acting in shooting through it.

I feel that an AoE condition removal area with potential to remove further conditions at a good rate of speed isn’t something to scoff at.

Lets also not forget that with all of that, maintainable 100% of the time, it also does a nice AoE heal tick.

And in action, even though my projectiles are tool tipped to state 20% chance, either I am putting projectiles through it fast enough or the tipis wrong, because in actual use, it cleanses consistently faster then1 in 5.

coglin.1496:

Yes it removes one on application and not just for me but for everyone in the area, as well everyone in the fight shooting acting in shooting through it.

I feel that an AoE condition removal area with potential to remove further conditions at a good rate of speed isn’t something to scoff at.

Lets also not forget that with all of that, maintainable 100% of the time, it also does a nice AoE heal tick.

And in action, even though my projectiles are tool tipped to state 20% chance, either I am putting projectiles through it fast enough or the tipis wrong, because in actual use, it cleanses consistently faster then1 in 5.

No offense Coglin, but it has been a known issue that 20% chance projectiles, state that 100% of the time, when passing through a combo field, regardless of whether or not it happens. Its been a known issue for ages and a pretty wide spread one at that.

Try this: Throw elixir U, get something that isn’t wall of reflection and shoot at an enemy. You’ll see that you get 100% of the time telling you you did it, but you’ll see only a few stacks of confusion or blind.

So, in the end, its not really at a good rate that it removes conditions. Its pretty rare since 20% is low.

And whirl finishers tend to be rare, but can be quite good at removing it. Whirling axe is great for example, but skills like that are rare. Few classes have whirl finishers, and most whirl finishers last for a short time.

So, in the end, engineers options are: Elixir gun, and elixirs. Does that seem good to you honestly? Elixir guns benefit condition builds, so I doubt I will ever use it for my rifle build, and I don’t always want to use elixirs.

The thing that really sets apart all the other professions isn’t how good at removing things they are, some are worse than a dedicated engineer. But the point is, their condition removal is not defining of their build.

A mesmer who takes null field is not a certain type of mesmer, nor is a necro that takes consume conditions.

But an engineer who takes elixirs is indeed.

Lyuben.2613:

No offense Coglin, but it has been a known issue that 20% chance projectiles, state that 100% of the time, when passing through a combo field, regardless of whether or not it happens. Its been a known issue for ages and a pretty wide spread one at that.

No offense Lyuben, but I do not make assumptions as you clearly are here. I am aware of the issue.

I pay particularly close attention to my chat log, as well as the UI and what conditions and boons I have up, and when they come and go.

Our condition removal is fine. Particularly when compared to other classes. You may attempt to make all the assumptions you like, and continue to conjure up there silly bogus issues with the engineer. All I see are post after post of you bashing the class. Either your a masochist to continue to play a class you hate so much to bash at every turn, or there is something else going on that contradicts logic as well.

I see thread after thread, and post after post in which your complaining or putting down the class, and comparing cherry picked aspect of game play and comparing it to cherry picked classes that have a strong focus in the particular area.

Lyuben.2613:

So, in the end, engineers options are: Elixir gun, and elixirs. Does that seem good to you honestly? Elixir guns benefit condition builds, so I doubt I will ever use it for my rifle build, and I don’t always want to use elixirs.

Case in point. You completely ignore the healing turrets that removes all conditions at once.

You pretend drop antidote does not exist.

coglin.1496:

Lyuben.2613:

No offense Coglin, but it has been a known issue that 20% chance projectiles, state that 100% of the time, when passing through a combo field, regardless of whether or not it happens. Its been a known issue for ages and a pretty wide spread one at that.

No offense Lyuben, but I do not make assumptions as you clearly are here. I am aware of the issue.

I pay particularly close attention to my chat log, as well as the UI and what conditions and boons I have up, and when they come and go.

Our condition removal is fine. Particularly when compared to other classes. You may attempt to make all the assumptions you like, and continue to conjure up there silly bogus issues with the engineer. All I see are post after post of you bashing the class. Either your a masochist to continue to play a class you hate so much to bash at every turn, or there is something else going on that contradicts logic as well.

I see thread after thread, and post after post in which your complaining or putting down the class, and comparing cherry picked aspect of game play and comparing it to cherry picked classes that have a strong focus in the particular area.

Lyuben.2613:

So, in the end, engineers options are: Elixir gun, and elixirs. Does that seem good to you honestly? Elixir guns benefit condition builds, so I doubt I will ever use it for my rifle build, and I don’t always want to use elixirs.

Case in point. You completely ignore the healing turrets that removes all conditions at once.

You pretend drop antidote does not exist.

I don’t pretend, if you’ve bothered to read that thread you’ll know that I don’t value either of those as reliable condition removing tools, for a number of reasons I have listed quite a few times.

So, I’m not going to list them again, and I’ll give you some time to read through the thread.

And yes, I do agree that condition removal is fine for the engineer, but the problem is, its only fine if you specc for elixirs. That’s the point of this thread.

And its awfully silly of you to suggest I don’t care about the class, I have been vocal supporting changes to kits and of course, to help players with the toolbelt tip.

I should add, I never falsely created myths that racials would never receive toolbelts now did I?

So your wanting a class to be great at something with absolutely no investment into that aspect, freeing it up to specialize elsewhere freely.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

As well, you do “pretend”. You pretend that just because you “don’t value” a well working way to remove conditions, that it doesn’t exist.

coglin.1496:

So your wanting a class to be great at something with absolutely no investment into that aspect, freeing it up to specialize elsewhere freely.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

As well, you do “pretend”. You pretend that just because you “don’t value” a well working way to remove conditions, that it doesn’t exist.

Again, you fail to bother reading the thread, I have made suggestions to buff up antidote, and the healing turret to offer reliable condition removal. But again, you chose to ignore that and jump to conclusions.

I would appreciate it if you would indeed, read that thread.

I will list the problems to you, as I doubt you are going to bother reading the thread:

Antidote is a 15s cooldown, 1 condition removal, so already, it is not that great. But factor in that it can’t be accessed when immobile, and it disables your weapons, then its becomes just terrible.

Healing turret, is on a long cooldown (60s), and while it removes all, it is still bad. Why? Well, you have no way to tell when it is off cooldown since the overcharge cooldown is unknown while you have the healing turret with you on cooldown, and due to the way the healing turret is designed, if you don’t have it on cooldown, then you are are failing in its use.

Furthermore, you don’t control when it works, even if it is on cooldown, as the way overcharging works, is by working at the next application, not instantly. And as you may or may not know, healing turret applies quite sparsely. So in the end, you are left with extremely long cooldown condition removal, with no knowledge of when its off cooldown, nor the ability to use it when you need to instantly.

This is not reliable condition removal.

My ideas are to buff these, and to give other utility skills more condition removing options.

Possibly adding condition removal on regenerating mist, giving bandages the ability to remove a single condition each, and antidote 3, instead of 1. That could indeed work. It would mean that you have the option to remove conditions that isn’t elixirs.

Now again, I feel I need to clarify this for the nth time, I am not saying we don’t have condition removal, as you keep misunderstanding, I am saying that the only way to get reliable condition removal, is to use a specific build.

You should have to invest to get condition removal. Perhaps make the changes I made to med kit a trait, and make the healing turret one baseline in general, while giving a new trait that changes how overcharge works, making it instant rather than on next attack. These are options.

You should have to invest I agree. But my issue is not with the need to invest, my issue is with there being only one possible way to get reliable condition removal.