Guild Wars 2

I decided to try a control build with high power and crit.

Rifle, Med Kit, Net Turret, Personal Battering Ram, Throw Mine, and Crate.

Most of my 1v1 fights went something like this, with some variation:
Use hip shot waiting for twitchy player (99% of players) to waste dodge rolls on pointless movement. Net Shot, Throw Mine, Blunderbuss, Overcharged shot towards Mine, then PBR to the face (*hilarious btw—hoping I caused some broken mice and keyboards over this combo). Drop Net Turret, Net Shot again, Net Turret overcharge, cripple runners with Launch PBR, rinse repeat.

The point is, even with a power crit build, I could not do enough damage to kill players before they got annoyed and disengaged, or figured out they couldn’t faceroll me forcing them to open a deadly can of whoopass on me. The latter I found VERY irritating, because obviously other profs have the tools to decimate me and most of the time are too lazy to focus on winning enough to do it. Get a faceroller angry though, and watch out!

(*hilarious because you knock them back into the mine which knocks them towards you again, then you respond with PBR knocking them away again. this causes them to eat dirt for a few seconds and makes the ragdoll graphics glitch in entertaining ways)

TL;DR
When people come on here talking about the amount of control Engineers have, I have news for them. It is meaningless without the damage to back it up. Maybe in a world where people actually focus marked targets, but we all know how useful that is.

I know this problem as well. Engineer just can’t do damage without atleast 1 kit and that’s the whole problem of the engineer design. We HAVE to take a stun breaker, we HAVE to take a kit, that leaves us with basically 1 utility slot left for free pickings.

Do you have static discharge traited to use with your pbr toolbelt? Do you use your control to interupt clutch skills like heals/resets or just to annoy?

If your hip shotting while face tanking their damage then you open up your control combo when they start to heal between 50 and 70 percent health you should be able to drop them really.

Put grenade kit in instead of PBR. When you use those control skills, swap to grenade kit and land a freeze or shrapnel grenade on their heads. Even better if you’re landing 4 second roots from net turret.

oh and PBR is absolute trash. It’s basically a smaller ranged ridiculously high cool down overcharged shot.

Yes.

But well, that might be decent in 2v2?

ANET honestly need to half the CD on some of the gadgets, those CDs are stupidly long for what they do.

waka.9826:

I know this problem as well. Engineer just can’t do damage without atleast 1 kit and that’s the whole problem of the engineer design. We HAVE to take a stun breaker, we HAVE to take a kit, that leaves us with basically 1 utility slot left for free pickings.

I did this as an exercise to see how viable a controlling build is. On any other profession this much control would spell doom for an opponent. I also get the idea of interrupting heals, but you can only lock someone out of a heal for a couple of seconds. They still have their stun break, invulnerability move, dodge rolling, block, etc. I wish interrupting heals was a more viable strategy. Reducing heals through poison seems like a better way to go.

Vekthor.8914:

Yes.

But well, that might be decent in 2v2?

That’s what I’m thinking. In a team fight this build would be okay—IF—people would coordinate and focus targets. That’s a big if.

Ego.2358:

Do you have static discharge traited to use with your pbr toolbelt? Do you use your control to interupt clutch skills like heals/resets or just to annoy?

If your hip shotting while face tanking their damage then you open up your control combo when they start to heal between 50 and 70 percent health you should be able to drop them really.

I could make some adjustments to the build to add an evasion/tanking element to it. Again, this is just an exercise to demonstrate that control is only a small piece of the viability pie.

I agree with that, without something to back it up control is just an annoyance. But with a knights build and some rubies with static discharge added in your damage should be able to spike people down from your control when they realise they’re in trouble.

You only need a few seconds of interupted healing to drop someone from 50% to zero with the right burst rotation, surprise shot and launch pbr work quite well for that. Control without timing is just as bad as control without damage.

This shows perfectly the downfall of having kits.
We were given kits to replace our secondary weapons, kits have a 1 sec swap timer giving us an advantage over just 2 weapon sets.
Because of this both our kits and primary weapons are made weaker.
Because of this any build that does not have kits is kitten from the start.
Because of this Engineers are forced to use traits to compensate for lack of damage.
Because of this Engineers have to work much harder and unconventionally to get equal damage output as other professions.
Because of this Engineers are a much more support focused profession, think about all the CC we have, in the OPs example of his 1v1 fights are proof, if those were not 1v1 the enemy would have been burned down by his teammates. That is where the Engineer excells, grabbing enemys, burning their escape CDs, then CC’ing them to be demolished by better damaging professions.
Because of this Anet does not know how to balance the profession because if you give a support heavy class too much damage potential they will eventually figure out how to just support themselves while killing ppl. Once again like the OP’s example, just think if he could do higher damage with Mine, Blunderbuss and OS! He would have caught someone with net shot then bounced them around for 2 seconds before they die with really no option to counter, not even macro theives can do that.

None of the Engineer’s other skills have as much effect on how the profession is shaped than Kits do. Because we have a 1 sec access to a new skill bar every other non-kit skill we have will suffer due to this option.

I think part of your damage issue is that the CC skills you do have on you either don’t cause damage (just about every net attack) or is on a long CD (PBR, overcharge turret) that means you can’t use their damage consistently, and the rifle is largely a burst weapon—ergo, much of the damage you’re carrying is spurts. It sounds like you use the CC to disrupt the enemy while you beat on them, but with these skills I think using it to lock down the enemy long enough to unleash a rapid chain of burst would work best—and I’m theorizing here and don’t know what your traits even look like, so take that with a grain of salt because they may not be very synergetic skills either.

Turrets and most gadgets still need some love to make them more equal in use to our kits (especially cooldown reduction), but I think your issue might also have been the skills you chose not working with the strategy you were using (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, though).

waka.9826:

oh and PBR is absolute trash. It’s basically a smaller ranged ridiculously high cool down overcharged shot.

Oh dude, PBR doesn’t CC you and with the right combo, it’s amazingly fun.

Grackleflint.4956:

I decided to try a control build with high power and crit.

Rifle, Med Kit, Net Turret, Personal Battering Ram, Throw Mine, and Crate.

Most of my 1v1 fights went something like this, with some variation:
Use hip shot waiting for twitchy player (99% of players) to waste dodge rolls on pointless movement. Net Shot, Throw Mine, Blunderbuss, Overcharged shot towards Mine, then PBR to the face (*hilarious btw—hoping I caused some broken mice and keyboards over this combo). Drop Net Turret, Net Shot again, Net Turret overcharge, cripple runners with Launch PBR, rinse repeat.

The point is, even with a power crit build, I could not do enough damage to kill players before they got annoyed and disengaged, or figured out they couldn’t faceroll me forcing them to open a deadly can of whoopass on me. The latter I found VERY irritating, because obviously other profs have the tools to decimate me and most of the time are too lazy to focus on winning enough to do it. Get a faceroller angry though, and watch out!

(*hilarious because you knock them back into the mine which knocks them towards you again, then you respond with PBR knocking them away again. this causes them to eat dirt for a few seconds and makes the ragdoll graphics glitch in entertaining ways)

TL;DR
When people come on here talking about the amount of control Engineers have, I have news for them. It is meaningless without the damage to back it up. Maybe in a world where people actually focus marked targets, but we all know how useful that is.

I see your frustration and I have two builds for you that could help. Also if you show me the build you used, I might be able to help give it more damage.
So the question is, do you want me to show you the builds or do you want me to help modify your build to do more damage?

Dirame.8521:

waka.9826:

oh and PBR is absolute trash. It’s basically a smaller ranged ridiculously high cool down overcharged shot.

Oh dude, PBR doesn’t CC you and with the right combo, it’s amazingly fun.

But is it worth the 45 second cool down? Nope.

waka.9826:

Dirame.8521:

waka.9826:

oh and PBR is absolute trash. It’s basically a smaller ranged ridiculously high cool down overcharged shot.

Oh dude, PBR doesn’t CC you and with the right combo, it’s amazingly fun.

But is it worth the 45 second cool down? Nope.

To me it is. On the build I run it on, it’s a 36 second cooldown and it’s totally worth it.

waka.9826:

Dirame.8521:

waka.9826:

oh and PBR is absolute trash. It’s basically a smaller ranged ridiculously high cool down overcharged shot.

Oh dude, PBR doesn’t CC you and with the right combo, it’s amazingly fun.

But is it worth the 45 second cool down? Nope.

PBR can be a nice little skill to use.
It is knockback and knockdown, and can be a nice suprise for ppl who think your knockbacks are done after Overcharged shot.
2 problems I have are:

The cooldowns are way too long
and
Gadgets only really work with Power/SD builds which really only work with the Rifle.

If they ever manage to make Pistols a better damage option without requiring HGH than a P/P Gadget build would be a pretty sweet setup and PBR would very nicely fill the knockback void left by ditching Rifle.

Get a Tool Kit in there, a pull is all you need in order to complete your set of knocks, and the Gear Shield gives invaluable protection. The Crate will take care of the Net Turret.

Dirame.8521:

waka.9826:

Dirame.8521:

waka.9826:

oh and PBR is absolute trash. It’s basically a smaller ranged ridiculously high cool down overcharged shot.

Oh dude, PBR doesn’t CC you and with the right combo, it’s amazingly fun.

But is it worth the 45 second cool down? Nope.

To me it is. On the build I run it on, it’s a 36 second cooldown and it’s totally worth it.

I’d rather take flamethrower or even throw mine as I can actually kill people with it. PBR is just a one time gimmick skill that’s on a huge cooldown that won’t change the outcome of the fight.

Dirame.8521:

Grackleflint.4956:

I decided to try a control build with high power and crit.

Rifle, Med Kit, Net Turret, Personal Battering Ram, Throw Mine, and Crate.

Most of my 1v1 fights went something like this, with some variation:
Use hip shot waiting for twitchy player (99% of players) to waste dodge rolls on pointless movement. Net Shot, Throw Mine, Blunderbuss, Overcharged shot towards Mine, then PBR to the face (*hilarious btw—hoping I caused some broken mice and keyboards over this combo). Drop Net Turret, Net Shot again, Net Turret overcharge, cripple runners with Launch PBR, rinse repeat.

The point is, even with a power crit build, I could not do enough damage to kill players before they got annoyed and disengaged, or figured out they couldn’t faceroll me forcing them to open a deadly can of whoopass on me. The latter I found VERY irritating, because obviously other profs have the tools to decimate me and most of the time are too lazy to focus on winning enough to do it. Get a faceroller angry though, and watch out!

(*hilarious because you knock them back into the mine which knocks them towards you again, then you respond with PBR knocking them away again. this causes them to eat dirt for a few seconds and makes the ragdoll graphics glitch in entertaining ways)

TL;DR
When people come on here talking about the amount of control Engineers have, I have news for them. It is meaningless without the damage to back it up. Maybe in a world where people actually focus marked targets, but we all know how useful that is.

I see your frustration and I have two builds for you that could help. Also if you show me the build you used, I might be able to help give it more damage.
So the question is, do you want me to show you the builds or do you want me to help modify your build to do more damage?

I appreciate the offer, but I did this as an exercise to show that our access to control doesn’t make us viable. You know, the whole control/damage/support thing they’re doing with GW2? Many posters claim that our control abilities can make up for low weapon damage. Well, now imagine a Greatsword Warrior with this kind of control. They could kill you just with their 1-5 abilities. An Engineer using this much control can’t close the deal.

^Greatsword warriors have no control and survivability. If you choose skills that do no damage dont cry about it.

Orion the Cursed.1206:

^Greatsword warriors have no control and survivability. If you choose skills that do no damage dont cry about it.

Warriors do have control, it’s just that every warrior uses the same utility skills. Whether or not you think these control utility skills are kitten they still do have them as options.

Orion the Cursed.1206:

^Greatsword warriors have no control and survivability. If you choose skills that do no damage dont cry about it.

You completely missed the point. It sounds like you’re too focused on being defensive about the low skill cap for GS warrior play. I’ll repeat, when people come here telling engineers that we make up for damage with control, they’re missing the point—that without the damage to back it up, it’s just that—control.

Low skill cap? Dont get ahead of your self.

Well, you missed the point that A GAME needs balance. Control conditions, spike damage, aoe, damage over time, buffs, debuffs, ehp, speed, restoration, misdirection, etc… You can’t have everything. As a full dps warrior, they have spike damage but fall short in other aspects. Same applies to you.

What people are actually saying is engineers have more tools to control the battlefield compared to warriors. If spec’ed as such an engineer can do damage comparable to dps warriors.

Your build is just stupid because you never put any thought in how to finish your opponent. I can make a dual mace warrior with full physical skills to CC people with low damage as well, then whine that warriors are useless because they cant do damage as well. Or make a full DPS warrior and complain that the class is useless because i get killed or CC alot. Thats you.

Grackleflint.4956:

I appreciate the offer, but I did this as an exercise to show that our access to control doesn’t make us viable. You know, the whole control/damage/support thing they’re doing with GW2? Many posters claim that our control abilities can make up for low weapon damage. Well, now imagine a Greatsword Warrior with this kind of control. They could kill you just with their 1-5 abilities. An Engineer using this much control can’t close the deal.

Unfortunately, I believe you are wrong. If you decide that you are going full control and you ignore damage, doesn’t that mean you won’t be killing anything? Most of the control abilities in this game don’t hit very hard and using them as a way to kill something fast isn’t going to work.

I think this is a case of knowing your role. A control character can not be a heavy damage char if he doesn’t specc or play that way. Like I said, if you want something that can do a bit of both, I’ve got 2 builds that could help but complaining that you can’t do enough damage when you didn’t specc for it is a bit weird if you ask me.

I’m not asking for everything, Orion. Lay off the hyperbole please.

What I’m demonstrating is that our main hand weapon damage is so low, that I can CC someone for many consecutive seconds (over 10 in most cases), and still not put out the damage needed to kill them.

Your mace warrior comparison doesn’t hold up because I chose our highest damage main hand weapon, the rifle, and you chose the lowest for warrior, the mace. If you have to use the lowest damage warrior weapon to make your point you’re already losing this argument.

On the subject of thought, how thoughtful is stun>100 blades?

Also, please address waka. He said “Warriors do have control, it’s just that every warrior uses the same utility skills. Whether or not you think these control utility skills are kitten they still do have them as options.” I’m really interested in your response to that, or were you just casually kittening about warrior’s lack of control without any intent on making a real point?

Finally, you’re still missing the point of my demonstration. I feel the need to repeat that this was a demo. It’s not a serious build I’m working on. The point was to show that the more control engineers dip into, the weaker our damage gets. We are overly reliant on kits and might stacking to do competitive damage, while other classes simply have high damage main hand weapon options. Saying Engineers have control as a reason for our low main hand weapon damage is disingenuous since no amount of control makes up for the lack of damage.

I’ve changed the title of the thread to help some people get the point I’m making. If it still isn’t clear, then I don’t know what to do for you.

I think Crackleflint, where you went wrong is you did focus ONLY on control, I mean, I got a 1vs1 duel build, that control and dominate any Melee enemy and most ranged aswell! (you can check it out in my movies if you want), but I use Bomb Kit, Toolkit and the Net Turrent + Dual pistols, which give me all the control I need, plenty of cripple and Immobilse, in combo with our perma vigor and swiftness we got all the controll we need + I still deal a truck load of Damage! You did the same mistake as most people do with a burst build —> They focus everything on the burst and to deliver it, whichs leave them without controll, you just did it the other way around!

Also, your build show’s one of the design problems with the Engineer, you run without a kit, which will lower your damage output a lot, mostly becuase gadgets (you use two of them) is in a bad situation compared to our ktis! This ain’t to be rude against you, it’s simply to point out that our control don’t have to come at the price off lower damage as you claim

Question: were you using Jump Shot at all in your rotation? That adds a huge chunk of damage from the rifle, and with the amount of immobilizes you have landing both the leap and the land shouldn’t have been a lot of issue.

I’m pretty sure our low MH damage is our “versatility tax” and not our control, but a one-build demo (that we still have no idea how it was traited) that was tested in only one mode of play (1v1) doesn’t really prove that control isn’t a significant piece in our viability. Especially since your focus on control is so extreme.

Thanks for the advice Amadeus. You make good points and I don’t think you’re being rude.

I wish I could reset this discussion because I feel I have a good point to make, and I should have given more thought to fleshing it out. I’m trying to take the focus off of kits and show how weak our main hand weapon damage is. Kits are a great solution and find a place in all of our viable and competitive pve and pvp builds. However, I think that being forced to use a kit to compensate is a problem. No other profession is forced to take a certain type or types of utilities. Like waka said: we have to take at least one kit, and one stun breaker. Then we’re left with one utility of our choice. This isn’t a case of kits being too good, it’s a case of most other choices being too weak. Now, we do have some players showcasing the power of elixirs, but again, that’s a very narrow build and I would argue that elixirs are also necessary. The majority of my builds use a mix of kits and elixirs in varying ratios. My main hand choices are usually a matter of what sigil do I need; do I need two? Better use p/p or p/s then. Not—I really need this main hand, or mh/oh combo because it’s amazing.

Gadgets and Turrets rarely if ever make the cut, and my main hand weapon is swapped out and in much like a kit—use the cooldowns, then swap out because the damage is terrible.

athuria.2751:

Question: were you using Jump Shot at all in your rotation? That adds a huge chunk of damage from the rifle, and with the amount of immobilizes you have landing both the leap and the land shouldn’t have been a lot of issue.

I’m pretty sure our low MH damage is our “versatility tax” and not our control, but a one-build demo (that we still have no idea how it was traited) that was tested in only one mode of play (1v1) doesn’t really prove that control isn’t a significant piece in our viability. Especially since your focus on control is so extreme.

I made sure to use all of the rifle’s abilities.

I chose to focus on control because Arenanet’s design philosophy for GW2 focuses on dps, control, and support. Since I already know that self buffing (which really isn’t true support) through elixirs is viable, I didn’t test it. I also know that kit builds are viable, so I didn’t test those. So I tried a kitless control build because control is often cited as a reason why our mh dmg is low. I personally believe it is too low and unjustifiably so. I feel like this a really simple concept to grasp, but it seems to be causing a lot of confusion.

Grackleflint.4956:

athuria.2751:

Question: were you using Jump Shot at all in your rotation? That adds a huge chunk of damage from the rifle, and with the amount of immobilizes you have landing both the leap and the land shouldn’t have been a lot of issue.

I’m pretty sure our low MH damage is our “versatility tax” and not our control, but a one-build demo (that we still have no idea how it was traited) that was tested in only one mode of play (1v1) doesn’t really prove that control isn’t a significant piece in our viability. Especially since your focus on control is so extreme.

I made sure to use all of the rifle’s abilities.

I chose to focus on control because Arenanet’s design philosophy for GW2 focuses on dps, control, and support. Since I already know that self buffing (which really isn’t true support) through elixirs is viable, I didn’t test it. I also know that kit builds are viable, so I didn’t test those. So I tried a kitless control build because control is often cited as a reason why our mh dmg is low. I personally believe it is too low and unjustifiably so. I feel like this a really simple concept to grasp, but it seems to be causing a lot of confusion.

That is indeed what they balance their combat mechanics around, but any build that takes one aspect to an extreme is going to find themselves severely lacking in the other two—especially a build with utilities that are already known to be unfortunately underpowered. There are ways you could sacrifice just a little of that control and get yourself some strength, and make it far more balanced than chaining 10 seconds of control—which with a burst build you shouldn’t need that much time, and with a sustained DPS build you’re probably going to use in spurts anyway (and thus have control skills off cooldown).

I’m sure there’s not an Engineer out there who doesn’t recognize how much we hinge on kits and self-buffing because our turrets and gadgets are lacking, but that’s because turrets and gadgets really need to be addressed—a harder hitting rifle wouldn’t make your PBR on any more reasonable a cooldown or your net turret less fragile, but a more frequent PBR or a more damaging net turret (maybe damage to the base attack, why can’t we trait for razor nets?) could do more for supplementing your rifle’s DPS.

@Crackleflint I agree completly with you that our other utility’s beside the kits and elixirs lack a lot! I’m going to cover that in my next commentary movie actually, because it’s quite the problem! I think that Kit’s work great atm, and it’s a very usefull sort of utility, and the elixirs works aswell, but that’s because the trait tree that support them is so strong, and boons in general is quite powerfull atm!

Just for short notice, the big problems we face atm without a kit is we only have 1 weapon when not using a kit in our utility, and that Pistol Auto attack sucks, so we have quite the damage down time when using that. But also that (allmost all our) Gadgets and Turrents is lackluster for any sort of serious PvP. They simply got to many design flaws when put together with the rest of the Engineer.

So when I say that the Engineer can be really good, and that we can both have damage and control, I still agree on that the class have some serious design flaws with the Turrents and Gadgets! And the point you try raise in this topic is very valid: Our Turrents and gadgets, even when our elixirs and gadgets is in a sweet spot now, still need a lot of work!

Thanks for acknowledging my point, Amadeus. I really appreciate it. I couldn’t agree with you more about kits. All of my viable builds include at least one kit, usually 2, less frequently 3-4, but they’re always needed in some capacity.

If I play static discharge rifle and I go sPvP, I kill everyone. If i go tPvP, I kill everyone. If I go WvW, I kill everyone. What is your kittening problem with engi dmg?!?!

@OP
PPL missed the point because it seemed like you presenting a control build than complaining that it didnt do enough dmg.
I understood your point only because I completely agree with you and its something that has been on my mind since the game released.
A few more tests would have cleared it up, using different combonations of are vast supply of CC skills.

Like Amadeus said the root of the whole problem stems from our Kits.
We get a damage tax on our Weapons to offset the versatility of being able to switch kits every 1 sec. Meaning if our damage with weapons was comparable to other professions than our ability to switch to kits and back so quickly would give us a great advantage over those professions.
So this sounds fair by itself but it leaves all the Engineers who want to be Gadgeteers, Turreteers or Elixirholics in a much weaker state.
So to run a build without Kits you basically have to take a secondary damage trait like Static Discharge or Pee-filled Elixirs to make up for the great loss of DPS by not having a kit.

So your point that with all of our CC we lack the damage to make the CC worth it is a valid one. Its just the problem stems more from our kits not because we have so much CC.
Which is also why the class is so hard to balance, if they want to make any single thing stronger like our MH weapons, gadgets or turrets they will have to also consider how stong they will be if ran along with Kits.

@OP

Imagine how easy it’d be for your Warrior buddies to land their 100b with all that immobilize you’re running. Imagine how hard it is for enemy Warriors to land their 100b with you knocking them on their bottoms every 3 seconds.

And, btw, I might just steal your build for WvW grouping. Everyone brings DPS. Nobody ever thinks about Control until some Ele just leaves a fight instead of getting stunned, chilled, knocked down, crippled, and immobilized over and over.

PinCushion.7390:

@OP

Imagine how easy it’d be for your Warrior buddies to land their 100b with all that immobilize you’re running. Imagine how hard it is for enemy Warriors to land their 100b with you knocking them on their bottoms every 3 seconds.

And, btw, I might just steal your build for WvW grouping. Everyone brings DPS. Nobody ever thinks about Control until some Ele just leaves a fight instead of getting stunned, chilled, knocked down, crippled, and immobilized over and over.

Warriors have easy access to Stability so once they see what you’re about your fun will be over pretty quickly. Now, that’s not to say that control is useless, you just need to be in a team fight situation where there is very good coordination and communication. People have to be on board with focusing marked targets or you’ll just be knocking someone around for the fun of it. You can really trait this set up however you want. Like many people in this thread have repeated ad nauseum you can trait Static Discharge to get a damage boost, but honestly I think that the boost is negligible considering the long cooldown of LPBR, and the ground targeting of Mine Field which causes SD to shoot into the ground.

Trait for survival. Your role will be controlling hard targets and making them easy prey for your team.

CriSPeH.8512:

@OP
PPL missed the point because it seemed like you presenting a control build than complaining that it didnt do enough dmg.
I understood your point only because I completely agree with you and its something that has been on my mind since the game released.
A few more tests would have cleared it up, using different combonations of are vast supply of CC skills.

Like Amadeus said the root of the whole problem stems from our Kits.
We get a damage tax on our Weapons to offset the versatility of being able to switch kits every 1 sec. Meaning if our damage with weapons was comparable to other professions than our ability to switch to kits and back so quickly would give us a great advantage over those professions.
So this sounds fair by itself but it leaves all the Engineers who want to be Gadgeteers, Turreteers or Elixirholics in a much weaker state.
So to run a build without Kits you basically have to take a secondary damage trait like Static Discharge or Pee-filled Elixirs to make up for the great loss of DPS by not having a kit.

So your point that with all of our CC we lack the damage to make the CC worth it is a valid one. Its just the problem stems more from our kits not because we have so much CC.
Which is also why the class is so hard to balance, if they want to make any single thing stronger like our MH weapons, gadgets or turrets they will have to also consider how stong they will be if ran along with Kits.

I couldn’t agree more, and I acknowledge that I did a poor job of presenting my point. I may do this over again—post a few different builds and some data to go with it. I don’t know how much good it will do though since you’re absolutely right about our kits being the root of our low mh dmg. It’s a larger balance issue and would probably not be so glaring if turrets, gadgets, and to a smaller degree elixirs, were brought up in strength and reliability.

I would hate to see our MH damage go up so high that kits received the nerf bat. I’d rather see other utility options be as useful as kits.