Guild Wars 2

That’s all we ask. It’s not a lot to ask and it shouldn’t be asked, but in light of the recent changes it seems necessary.

It’s nice that we’re getting some attention and bug fixes. Thanks for that, even though we came out significantly weaker because of it.

But it feels like no play testing has been done at all, as evident by KR having stupid hidden global cooldown, which makes trying to proc the desired effect in the heat of battle nearly impossible with 2-3 kits, as well as Flame Turret being broken with Deployable Turrets, a trait you’d most likely have if you play tested a turret engineer.

Now I’m sure you have a reason for not having public test servers. But since you don’t, could you please assign someone to play the class on a regular basis? Preferably in tPvP or sPvP?

Thanks.

They need to bench the sPvP squad and just worry about WvW because they’re lost.

Flame Turret still broken with DT? Still?

This qualifies for a proper Brouhaha if any. Good grief.. they have several people looking at illusionary berserker and can’t figure it out, while Flame Turret is still broken while other similar turrets are fixed. All the while FT deals less potential damage per cast than IB. Good job A.net. slow clap

Do people seriously think that developers don’t play Engineer at all? ArenaNet is a multi-million dollar company and you SERIOUSLY don’t think their developers know a lot more about class balance than their players? It’s their job to do this, we all do it for fun. Of course they have people who play each class, it would be insane to think they don’t. A lot of these changes are made in mind with ALL other changes made to other classes, everyone likes to look at their one class and scream “STOP NERFING US!” but never take it into the big picture.

It’s not like these changes are permanent, they do a lot of things to “test the waters” and see if it works or not. These forums are a mess, crying every patch I swear.

@Sladeakakevin.4162

I’m guessing you haven’t played engineer much but I have, been my only main since day1, played a Whole lot in both PvP AND PvE and every single patch they nerfed us, even at launch they nerfed so many skills we had in BWE literally to the ground and have yet to make up for it, since then every patch has been a nerf, with EXTREMELY small bug-fixes to cover those, they even nerfed stuff that was STILL bugged (still no word about #1 grenade kit skill being auto, which means a lot more damage if you ask me considered the amount of time wasted just to point the right target, yes I mean WITH fast ground-targeting active too) and left it bugged, they managed to actually break skills instead of fixing and released’em without even fixing’em one month later (it took 5 months to get Deployable Turrets to work!).

And now, not only they completely changed our best trait (which wasn’t even THAT strong now, it was only useful for the Elixir Gun and 100nades), but gave us nothing to make up for it, now that trait is completely useless outside of single-kit (Bomb) build PvP.

Can’t you feel how frustrated the engineer community is?
Every single patch means respeccing and gathering a Whole lot of equips to make it useful.

Every patch we are promised with buffs/fixes (VASTLY more important fixes, extremely needed ones) that happen to be stealth-nerfs or simply don’t even “happen”.

Every patch we get nerfed, completely unexplanedly, I remember GW1 devs used to post their reasons and such but this… THIS… it’s just unbearable.

Every time I try to talk with someone in-game they ask me why I’m playing engineer, even more why I main it, why don’t I roll something else, ANYTHING else, players mock the engineer because they are never considered actually useful, especially by devs considering the patches, I guess they proved to be right…

Now I’m left with my condition-grenade build, there’s nothing as effective, static discharge is yet to be fixed, elixir-gun’s refinement just got nerfed, I wonder what I should do now…

Sladeakakevin.4162:

Do people seriously think that developers don’t play Engineer at all? ArenaNet is a multi-million dollar company and you SERIOUSLY don’t think their developers know a lot more about class balance than their players? It’s their job to do this, we all do it for fun. Of course they have people who play each class, it would be insane to think they don’t. A lot of these changes are made in mind with ALL other changes made to other classes, everyone likes to look at their one class and scream “STOP NERFING US!” but never take it into the big picture.

It’s not like these changes are permanent, they do a lot of things to “test the waters” and see if it works or not. These forums are a mess, crying every patch I swear.

Dude they literally admitted before that they only have 2 guys on class balance.

Sladeakakevin.4162:

Do people seriously think that developers don’t play Engineer at all? ArenaNet is a multi-million dollar company and you SERIOUSLY don’t think their developers know a lot more about class balance than their players? It’s their job to do this, we all do it for fun. Of course they have people who play each class, it would be insane to think they don’t. A lot of these changes are made in mind with ALL other changes made to other classes, everyone likes to look at their one class and scream “STOP NERFING US!” but never take it into the big picture.

It’s not like these changes are permanent, they do a lot of things to “test the waters” and see if it works or not. These forums are a mess, crying every patch I swear.

You know how I realized FT was broken with Deployable Turrets? I spent 5 minutes putting together a turret build and went into a sPvP match with a buddy.

5 minutes. That’s all it took. If a dev bothered to spend 5 minutes testing the new patch changes and the subsequent cascade of bugs that will follow, they’d realize its broken too.

You know how I realize the KR change is stupid? I think back to all my times playing my engineer with more than 2 kits. I realize that I swap kits whenever I need something from it. It’s a reactionary. I can’t fit in a effect on a 20 second global cooldown that fires whenever I swap to a kit into a useful rotation. It’s going to go off whether I want to or not, because sometimes I just need that FT for knockback or Bomb Kit for smoke.

This isn’t a whine about the nerfs. Fine, KR was OP for 10 points. Its their vision and I can live with it. They even buffed Elixir U like crazy – I’m definitely not complaining about instant use + stunbreaker. They nerfed EG with the Rifled Barrels fix, but that’s fine too – that was an unintended thing.

I’m just sad that there are things that arrive broken on patch day. Things that don’t take weeks and extensive play testing to be caught, but mere bloody minutes and some attention.

And before you say KR on a 20 second global, hidden cooldown isn’t broken, let me ask you – do you actually play on a strict timer based rotation when using kits? Do you spam smoke off cd? Or frost grenade? Or FT knockback? Of course you don’t, because you have enough intelligence to keep them ready for when you actually need them.

This is not about class power. Changing KR and fixing Deployable Turrets isn’t going to make us that much stronger – just fix us. And if you can’t see that, I’m sorry for you.

Sladeakakevin.4162:

It’s their job to do this, we all do it for fun.

In IT often the people that do something for fun do it better than people who do it for job.

And this:

AsmallChicken.9634:

Dude they literally admitted before that they only have 2 guys on class balance.

global CD makes multiple kits pretty much kitten Kit swapping in and out makes this trait useless as we don’t really have much control to use these effects.

Sladeakakevin.4162:

Do people seriously think that developers don’t play Engineer at all? ArenaNet is a multi-million dollar company and you SERIOUSLY don’t think their developers know a lot more about class balance than their players? It’s their job to do this, we all do it for fun. Of course they have people who play each class, it would be insane to think they don’t. A lot of these changes are made in mind with ALL other changes made to other classes, everyone likes to look at their one class and scream “STOP NERFING US!” but never take it into the big picture.

It’s not like these changes are permanent, they do a lot of things to “test the waters” and see if it works or not. These forums are a mess, crying every patch I swear.

1) No, just because they are devs does not mean they know more about balance. For example I’ve been playing MMORPGs since 1997. PRetty sure even among devs there are many who can’t sport that much time. Also PvPed since then (Ultima Online etc)

2) There are 2 guys working on balance, maybe 3 now which was said by ANet themselves. Yes, i doubt they play ALL classes or play them at decent level.

3) We as players play more than they. They spent time putting things together, theorycrafting, doing notes etc. We focus on playing mos of the time.

TL;DR

No, they don’t have ppl playing each class. They got 2 guys working on balance. Reason why it’s slow.

AsmallChicken.9634:

Dude they literally admitted before that they only have 2 guys on class balance.

No, they didn’t. It was misunderstood. They later said it wasn’t true and they had a full team working on balance.

Killyox.3950:

Sladeakakevin.4162:

Do people seriously think that developers don’t play Engineer at all? ArenaNet is a multi-million dollar company and you SERIOUSLY don’t think their developers know a lot more about class balance than their players? It’s their job to do this, we all do it for fun. Of course they have people who play each class, it would be insane to think they don’t. A lot of these changes are made in mind with ALL other changes made to other classes, everyone likes to look at their one class and scream “STOP NERFING US!” but never take it into the big picture.

It’s not like these changes are permanent, they do a lot of things to “test the waters” and see if it works or not. These forums are a mess, crying every patch I swear.

1) No, just because they are devs does not mean they know more about balance. For example I’ve been playing MMORPGs since 1997. PRetty sure even among devs there are many who can’t sport that much time. Also PvPed since then (Ultima Online etc)

2) There are 2 guys working on balance, maybe 3 now which was said by ANet themselves. Yes, i doubt they play ALL classes or play them at decent level.

3) We as players play more than they. They spent time putting things together, theorycrafting, doing notes etc. We focus on playing mos of the time.

TL;DR

No, they don’t have ppl playing each class. They got 2 guys working on balance. Reason why it’s slow.

Man Ultima Online, that game was so great

Kardiamond.6952:

AsmallChicken.9634:

Dude they literally admitted before that they only have 2 guys on class balance.

No, they didn’t. It was misunderstood. They later said it wasn’t true and they had a full team working on balance.

Actually yes they did say they only got 2 people working on balance.

But of course, when something sounds bad and they shoot themselves in the head with that comment they spin it.

Kardiamond.6952:

Killyox.3950:

Sladeakakevin.4162:

Do people seriously think that developers don’t play Engineer at all? ArenaNet is a multi-million dollar company and you SERIOUSLY don’t think their developers know a lot more about class balance than their players? It’s their job to do this, we all do it for fun. Of course they have people who play each class, it would be insane to think they don’t. A lot of these changes are made in mind with ALL other changes made to other classes, everyone likes to look at their one class and scream “STOP NERFING US!” but never take it into the big picture.

It’s not like these changes are permanent, they do a lot of things to “test the waters” and see if it works or not. These forums are a mess, crying every patch I swear.

1) No, just because they are devs does not mean they know more about balance. For example I’ve been playing MMORPGs since 1997. PRetty sure even among devs there are many who can’t sport that much time. Also PvPed since then (Ultima Online etc)

2) There are 2 guys working on balance, maybe 3 now which was said by ANet themselves. Yes, i doubt they play ALL classes or play them at decent level.

3) We as players play more than they. They spent time putting things together, theorycrafting, doing notes etc. We focus on playing mos of the time.

TL;DR

No, they don’t have ppl playing each class. They got 2 guys working on balance. Reason why it’s slow.

Man Ultima Online, that game was so great

It sure was

There are far too many assumptions in this thread. Apparently we can pick and choose what the devs say and determine it as lies or truth depending on whether it supports our argument or not. I don’t see how this discussion does anything at all to help us, and from the look on this thread I’d honestly feel the desire to not even balance the Engineer at all anymore. Which is probably the opposite effect you all want, but then I will assume alongside all these other assumptions they are professional enough to ignore these kind of threads.

Ayestes.1273:

There are far too many assumptions in this thread. Apparently we can pick and choose what the devs say and determine it as lies or truth depending on whether it supports our argument or not. I don’t see how this discussion does anything at all to help us, and from the look on this thread I’d honestly feel the desire to not even balance the Engineer at all anymore. Which is probably the opposite effect you all want, but then I will assume alongside all these other assumptions they are professional enough to ignore these kind of threads.

My assumptions are based off what the devs have said in the SotG interview and the changes they’ve made to our class from day 1. And honestly, they’ve said very little.

I’ve been pretty okay with the changes made, even though they were mostly nerfs. Hell, I defended ANet quite a bit back then. I even took a break off the forums, because I didn’t have anything to say – they seemed to have the right idea about balance. I rather spend my free time playing.

But the previous change to KR which started the global shared cooldowns annoyed me to no end. It showed that whoever thought it up doesn’t actually use KR, or doesn’t play multi-kit engineers, or engineer at all. I came back to the forums to say my piece in hopes they actually read the class forums. I’m beginning to suspect they don’t.

Then they talked about turret buffs in a frankly embarrassing interview that showed how clueless they were about the class. If you haven’t watched it yet, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zCUvIrH2BlU&t=35m32s

I don’t care how many people are working on class balance. It is not important. Be it 2 or 200, it doesn’t matter if changes are not made with relevance to how the class is played and with quality assurance.

Since I took notes and created a thread on the topic, I think you can have my assurances that I watched it. To me it’s astonishing that that State of the Game wasn’t wonderful to hear from everyone. I loved the Engineer discussion and am very optimistic of the Engineer future because of it. The patch only gave me more evidence to support my optimistic impression.

The previous Kit Refinement change was terrible, and I talked about it back then too. The rest of the changes at the time were wonderful though. We all talked about how Kit Refinement should’ve been nerfed in a different way, and what did they do? They did pretty much exactly what we all discussed back then. They nerfed it and took the internal cooldowns on top of internal cooldowns away to simplify it.

The assumption they didn’t play Engineers with Kit Refinement to me is absurd. The assumption they lack QA testing is absurd as well. It adds nothing to the argument at hand. If you want to discuss how much you disagree with the changes, that’s great. That’s real discussion and there are points to be made on both sides. Assumptions that are inflammatory and boil down to “the devs are bad at their job” add absolutely nothing to the discussion and only serve to remove any good discussion that was around. Why should a dev read a thread that is essentially nothing but “you should be fired” from what is very likely someone who has no industry knowledge at all? There are ways to discuss all this, and even if I disagree with you there are good points in what is brought up. The way it’s brought about now though accomplishes almost nothing.

irakai.6891:

Ayestes.1273:

There are far too many assumptions in this thread. Apparently we can pick and choose what the devs say and determine it as lies or truth depending on whether it supports our argument or not. I don’t see how this discussion does anything at all to help us, and from the look on this thread I’d honestly feel the desire to not even balance the Engineer at all anymore. Which is probably the opposite effect you all want, but then I will assume alongside all these other assumptions they are professional enough to ignore these kind of threads.

My assumptions are based off what the devs have said in the SotG interview and the changes they’ve made to our class from day 1. And honestly, they’ve said very little.

I’ve been pretty okay with the changes made, even though they were mostly nerfs. Hell, I defended ANet quite a bit back then. I even took a break off the forums, because I didn’t have anything to say – they seemed to have the right idea about balance. I rather spend my free time playing.

But the previous change to KR which started the global shared cooldowns annoyed me to no end. It showed that whoever thought it up doesn’t actually use KR, or doesn’t play multi-kit engineers, or engineer at all. I came back to the forums to say my piece in hopes they actually read the class forums. I’m beginning to suspect they don’t.

Then they talked about turret buffs in a frankly embarrassing interview that showed how clueless they were about the class. If you haven’t watched it yet, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zCUvIrH2BlU&t=35m32s

I don’t care how many people are working on class balance. It is not important. Be it 2 or 200, it doesn’t matter if changes are not made with relevance to how the class is played and with quality assurance.

“kit refinement was overpowered in some areas and lackluster in others”
-“so we just made it useless in all areas.”

Also, no, kitten them, KR was NOT overpowered on Elixir Gun, now it’s just straight kitten.

And lol at him for saying guardian is “slow,” they can perma swiftness, immoblize, and pull.

im just here to third the UO was great comment.

havent seen more complex pvp then 2 7x anatomy mages fighitng. until Tom Chilton “kalgan” ruined it with age of shadows(then moved on to ruin wow pvp).

tom chilton is still ruining wow today pvp nerf bat gets swung daily. the guy single handedly ruined ultima online. he was the 1 person responsable. then he got hired by wow to do the same thing for all these years.

heres my point .. dont think because someoen has done something for a long time or because someone throws a bunch of money at them that they are good at thier job.

im not saying that it makes them bad either. ..

Sladeakakevin.4162:

Do people seriously think that developers don’t play Engineer at all? ArenaNet is a multi-million dollar company and you SERIOUSLY don’t think their developers know a lot more about class balance than their players? It’s their job to do this, we all do it for fun. Of course they have people who play each class, it would be insane to think they don’t. A lot of these changes are made in mind with ALL other changes made to other classes, everyone likes to look at their one class and scream “STOP NERFING US!” but never take it into the big picture.

It’s not like these changes are permanent, they do a lot of things to “test the waters” and see if it works or not. These forums are a mess, crying every patch I swear.

+1

And of course, ANET hates this game. Devs want to purposefully destroy the game they spent their lives creating.

And devs hate engineers in particular, because they don’t want people to play the class. The class just happened to be there, devs never wanted it. That’s the reason why they never play it themselves. They just make random changes to classes, because they get kicks out of it. Of course, Engineers always get burnt by Dev RNG, because devs like the other seven classes better.

Yes, it all makes sense now. enlightened

Calvin.5380:

Sladeakakevin.4162:

Do people seriously think that developers don’t play Engineer at all? ArenaNet is a multi-million dollar company and you SERIOUSLY don’t think their developers know a lot more about class balance than their players? It’s their job to do this, we all do it for fun. Of course they have people who play each class, it would be insane to think they don’t. A lot of these changes are made in mind with ALL other changes made to other classes, everyone likes to look at their one class and scream “STOP NERFING US!” but never take it into the big picture.

It’s not like these changes are permanent, they do a lot of things to “test the waters” and see if it works or not. These forums are a mess, crying every patch I swear.

+1

And of course, ANET hates this game. Devs want to purposefully destroy the game they spent their lives creating.

And devs hate engineers in particular, because they don’t want people to play the class. The class just happened to be there, devs never wanted it. That’s the reason why they never play it themselves. They just make random changes to classes, because they get kicks out of it. Of course, Engineers always get burnt by Dev RNG, because devs like the other seven classes better.

Yes, it all makes sense now. enlightened

No, they’re just clueless as to what to do with the case, watch the video on the update.
They’re lumping pve and pvp together, which just shouldn’t be the class. For the sake of nerfing them in pvp they literally stomped on MANY Engineer pve builds. Also, look at Rangers… the Quickness nerf lowered damage output by around 47% (tested by players, accounting for melee pets, etc).

Ayestes.1273:

Since I took notes and created a thread on the topic, I think you can have my assurances that I watched it. To me it’s astonishing that that State of the Game wasn’t wonderful to hear from everyone. I loved the Engineer discussion and am very optimistic of the Engineer future because of it. The patch only gave me more evidence to support my optimistic impression.

The previous Kit Refinement change was terrible, and I talked about it back then too. The rest of the changes at the time were wonderful though. We all talked about how Kit Refinement should’ve been nerfed in a different way, and what did they do? They did pretty much exactly what we all discussed back then. They nerfed it and took the internal cooldowns on top of internal cooldowns away to simplify it.

The assumption they didn’t play Engineers with Kit Refinement to me is absurd. The assumption they lack QA testing is absurd as well. It adds nothing to the argument at hand. If you want to discuss how much you disagree with the changes, that’s great. That’s real discussion and there are points to be made on both sides. Assumptions that are inflammatory and boil down to “the devs are bad at their job” add absolutely nothing to the discussion and only serve to remove any good discussion that was around. Why should a dev read a thread that is essentially nothing but “you should be fired” from what is very likely someone who has no industry knowledge at all? There are ways to discuss all this, and even if I disagree with you there are good points in what is brought up. The way it’s brought about now though accomplishes almost nothing.

^This.

Respect.

Linnes.2678:

Calvin.5380:

Sladeakakevin.4162:

Do people seriously think that developers don’t play Engineer at all? ArenaNet is a multi-million dollar company and you SERIOUSLY don’t think their developers know a lot more about class balance than their players? It’s their job to do this, we all do it for fun. Of course they have people who play each class, it would be insane to think they don’t. A lot of these changes are made in mind with ALL other changes made to other classes, everyone likes to look at their one class and scream “STOP NERFING US!” but never take it into the big picture.

It’s not like these changes are permanent, they do a lot of things to “test the waters” and see if it works or not. These forums are a mess, crying every patch I swear.

+1

And of course, ANET hates this game. Devs want to purposefully destroy the game they spent their lives creating.

And devs hate engineers in particular, because they don’t want people to play the class. The class just happened to be there, devs never wanted it. That’s the reason why they never play it themselves. They just make random changes to classes, because they get kicks out of it. Of course, Engineers always get burnt by Dev RNG, because devs like the other seven classes better.

Yes, it all makes sense now. enlightened

No, they’re just clueless as to what to do with the class, watch the video on the update.
They’re lumping pve and pvp together, which just shouldn’t be the class. For the sake of nerfing them in pvp they literally stomped on MANY Engineer pve builds. Also, look at Rangers… the Quickness nerf lowered damage output by around 47% (tested by players, accounting for melee pets, etc).

Of course, we can assume that you know better about balance than the devs. Just the way you assumed that you’re the only person who’s seen that video.

I bow to thee, sir.

Ayestes.1273:

Since I took notes and created a thread on the topic, I think you can have my assurances that I watched it. To me it’s astonishing that that State of the Game wasn’t wonderful to hear from everyone. I loved the Engineer discussion and am very optimistic of the Engineer future because of it. The patch only gave me more evidence to support my optimistic impression.

Have you tried to make a turret engineer before the patch? I did and the problem I came across was threefold. Turrets were hitting for insignificant damage and were too easily killed for the long cooldown they incurred which only started after the turret blew up. Worse still, they had horrible A.I. and targeting problems.

They talked about damage for Rifle, a cripple for Thumper and that was it. Nothing was really said about cooldowns or durability. I didn’t expect them to mention a fix to the A.I. since that would have been a general improvement to all minion classes, but there was nothing about improving targeting or making it player assisting. It sounded like they didn’t know what the biggest problems with turrets were!

In the patch, we got a cooldown buff for Rocket and Flame, of which only the Flame Turret was significantly changed, and a little more health for the Net Turret. It’s nice, but turrets are still relatively useless in sPvP since the other two more pressing issues aren’t addressed.

Why were you optimistic? Was it because of what they mentioned with the KR changes? They spoke about it being too powerful and it needed to be brought in line with other 10 point traits. They also mentioned more utility than straight up damage. That’s fine, nothing to be excited about. They failed to mention how unusable it was in its recently changed formed – now that was disappointing.

Ayestes.1273:

The previous Kit Refinement change was terrible, and I talked about it back then too. The rest of the changes at the time were wonderful though. We all talked about how Kit Refinement should’ve been nerfed in a different way, and what did they do? They did pretty much exactly what we all discussed back then. They nerfed it and took the internal cooldowns on top of internal cooldowns away to simplify it.

The problem with the previous change to KR was complication – I agree. It was also bugged like hell so you could still chain certain effects together, and 100nades actually still worked. Kind of defeated the purpose of it all, which made me wonder if they tested it before they shipped.

The current problem with KR is the inability to trigger what you want in the heat of battle. If you want to use it, you’d have to severely limit your reactionary kit swapping and in exchange for a small advantage.

The change to effects were cool. MagBomb in particular. Good luck triggering it perfectly in a combo when you have more than two kits in your arsenal though. Opposing players don’t tend to stand around and let you do what you want, when you want. Waiting on a kit swap when you’re in a fight is borderline suicide.

Ayestes.1273:

The assumption they didn’t play Engineers with Kit Refinement to me is absurd. The assumption they lack QA testing is absurd as well. It adds nothing to the argument at hand. If you want to discuss how much you disagree with the changes, that’s great. That’s real discussion and there are points to be made on both sides. Assumptions that are inflammatory and boil down to “the devs are bad at their job” add absolutely nothing to the discussion and only serve to remove any good discussion that was around. Why should a dev read a thread that is essentially nothing but “you should be fired” from what is very likely someone who has no industry knowledge at all? There are ways to discuss all this, and even if I disagree with you there are good points in what is brought up. The way it’s brought about now though accomplishes almost nothing.

I know its absurb. That’s why I said this should have to be asked in the first place. I guess I’m just venting.

But consider – if they did play the class thoroughly, would they have shipped the previous version of KR? Spend 10 minutes in sPvP and anyone would be annoyed. They would also realized that it was bugged as hell. If they had QA would they ship the turret changes bugged with the most important turret trait? It’s rare to make a turret based build without Deployable Turrets, unless you’re just using Rifle Turret for static discharge like I do with my Power Rifle builds. Besides, testing the new turrets with all the turret related traits would be the most logical thing to do!

By the way, when have I said anyone should be fired? If anything more people should be hired for play testing and class balance.

Calvin.5380:

Linnes.2678:

Calvin.5380:

Sladeakakevin.4162:

Do people seriously think that developers don’t play Engineer at all? ArenaNet is a multi-million dollar company and you SERIOUSLY don’t think their developers know a lot more about class balance than their players? It’s their job to do this, we all do it for fun. Of course they have people who play each class, it would be insane to think they don’t. A lot of these changes are made in mind with ALL other changes made to other classes, everyone likes to look at their one class and scream “STOP NERFING US!” but never take it into the big picture.

It’s not like these changes are permanent, they do a lot of things to “test the waters” and see if it works or not. These forums are a mess, crying every patch I swear.

+1

And of course, ANET hates this game. Devs want to purposefully destroy the game they spent their lives creating.

And devs hate engineers in particular, because they don’t want people to play the class. The class just happened to be there, devs never wanted it. That’s the reason why they never play it themselves. They just make random changes to classes, because they get kicks out of it. Of course, Engineers always get burnt by Dev RNG, because devs like the other seven classes better.

Yes, it all makes sense now. enlightened

No, they’re just clueless as to what to do with the class, watch the video on the update.
They’re lumping pve and pvp together, which just shouldn’t be the class. For the sake of nerfing them in pvp they literally stomped on MANY Engineer pve builds. Also, look at Rangers… the Quickness nerf lowered damage output by around 47% (tested by players, accounting for melee pets, etc).

Of course, we can assume that you know better about balance than the devs. Just the way you assumed that you’re the only person who’s seen that video.

I bow to thee, sir.

I guarantee you I could balance a class better than they could. Heck, I’d apply to Arena Net right now and completely change their department if it were up to me. I would start with Rangers first, as it’s a bit disgusting how much they neglect the class as a whole. Whoopee, this patch made greatsword better, it’s still a bad weaponset compared to traps w/ Shortbow+Sword/Dag. For one, I would not rely on pets to define the class, the skill balances were far superior in GW1 just due to the simple fact that you had the option to remove that pet, and not revolve your DPS around it. This being said, Rangers in GW1 were STILL nerfed to near pointless levels in PvE.

Izzy doesn’t know what he’s doing, Izzy does not PvP. He plays a zerker babby 4sig warrior in PvE. I have grouped with him before and have even politely asked him to change his build to shouts/banners for support, he refused.

Linnes.2678:

Calvin.5380:

Linnes.2678:

Calvin.5380:

Sladeakakevin.4162:

Do people seriously think that developers don’t play Engineer at all? ArenaNet is a multi-million dollar company and you SERIOUSLY don’t think their developers know a lot more about class balance than their players? It’s their job to do this, we all do it for fun. Of course they have people who play each class, it would be insane to think they don’t. A lot of these changes are made in mind with ALL other changes made to other classes, everyone likes to look at their one class and scream “STOP NERFING US!” but never take it into the big picture.

It’s not like these changes are permanent, they do a lot of things to “test the waters” and see if it works or not. These forums are a mess, crying every patch I swear.

+1

And of course, ANET hates this game. Devs want to purposefully destroy the game they spent their lives creating.

And devs hate engineers in particular, because they don’t want people to play the class. The class just happened to be there, devs never wanted it. That’s the reason why they never play it themselves. They just make random changes to classes, because they get kicks out of it. Of course, Engineers always get burnt by Dev RNG, because devs like the other seven classes better.

Yes, it all makes sense now. enlightened

No, they’re just clueless as to what to do with the class, watch the video on the update.
They’re lumping pve and pvp together, which just shouldn’t be the class. For the sake of nerfing them in pvp they literally stomped on MANY Engineer pve builds. Also, look at Rangers… the Quickness nerf lowered damage output by around 47% (tested by players, accounting for melee pets, etc).

Of course, we can assume that you know better about balance than the devs. Just the way you assumed that you’re the only person who’s seen that video.

I bow to thee, sir.

I guarantee you I could balance a class better than they could. Heck, I’d apply to Arena Net right now and completely change their department if it were up to me. I would start with Rangers first, as it’s a bit disgusting how much they neglect the class as a whole. Whoopee, this patch made greatsword better, it’s still a bad weaponset compared to traps w/ Shortbow+Sword/Dag. For one, I would not rely on pets to define the class, the skill balances were far superior in GW1 just due to the simple fact that you had the option to remove that pet, and not revolve your DPS around it. This being said, Rangers in GW1 were STILL nerfed to near pointless levels in PvE.

Izzy doesn’t know what he’s doing, Izzy does not PvP. He plays a zerker babby 4sig warrior in PvE. I have grouped with him before and have even asked him to change his build, he refused.

I commend you, dear sir, for your ability. I hope your awesomeness doesn’t make the devs insecure. I’ll eagerly wait for a few years till you reach puberty, and are able to build the game we all will love and cherish. So much hope you give me. /bow

Calvin.5380:

Linnes.2678:

Calvin.5380:

Linnes.2678:

Calvin.5380:

Sladeakakevin.4162:

Do people seriously think that developers don’t play Engineer at all? ArenaNet is a multi-million dollar company and you SERIOUSLY don’t think their developers know a lot more about class balance than their players? It’s their job to do this, we all do it for fun. Of course they have people who play each class, it would be insane to think they don’t. A lot of these changes are made in mind with ALL other changes made to other classes, everyone likes to look at their one class and scream “STOP NERFING US!” but never take it into the big picture.

It’s not like these changes are permanent, they do a lot of things to “test the waters” and see if it works or not. These forums are a mess, crying every patch I swear.

+1

And of course, ANET hates this game. Devs want to purposefully destroy the game they spent their lives creating.

And devs hate engineers in particular, because they don’t want people to play the class. The class just happened to be there, devs never wanted it. That’s the reason why they never play it themselves. They just make random changes to classes, because they get kicks out of it. Of course, Engineers always get burnt by Dev RNG, because devs like the other seven classes better.

Yes, it all makes sense now. enlightened

No, they’re just clueless as to what to do with the class, watch the video on the update.
They’re lumping pve and pvp together, which just shouldn’t be the class. For the sake of nerfing them in pvp they literally stomped on MANY Engineer pve builds. Also, look at Rangers… the Quickness nerf lowered damage output by around 47% (tested by players, accounting for melee pets, etc).

Of course, we can assume that you know better about balance than the devs. Just the way you assumed that you’re the only person who’s seen that video.

I bow to thee, sir.

I guarantee you I could balance a class better than they could. Heck, I’d apply to Arena Net right now and completely change their department if it were up to me. I would start with Rangers first, as it’s a bit disgusting how much they neglect the class as a whole. Whoopee, this patch made greatsword better, it’s still a bad weaponset compared to traps w/ Shortbow+Sword/Dag. For one, I would not rely on pets to define the class, the skill balances were far superior in GW1 just due to the simple fact that you had the option to remove that pet, and not revolve your DPS around it. This being said, Rangers in GW1 were STILL nerfed to near pointless levels in PvE.

Izzy doesn’t know what he’s doing, Izzy does not PvP. He plays a zerker babby 4sig warrior in PvE. I have grouped with him before and have even asked him to change his build, he refused.

I commend you, dear sir, for your ability. I hope your awesomeness doesn’t make the devs insecure. I’ll eagerly wait for a few years till you reach puberty, and are able to build the game we all will love and cherish. So much hope you give me. /bow

You’re talking about maturity but you’re sounding like a smartass kid who knows when he’s wrong but tries to act like an adult just to make himself appear correct. Please grow up, these changes to Engineer WERE bad, and you have no right to even try to justify them. I suppose you think Rangers and Necromancers are perfectly balanced as well?

Also, why are the lot of you defending the devs for shipping buggy patches and making questionable changes?

It’s not like engineers are overpowered and causing imbalance in sPvP, WvW or PvE. Or are causing some irreversible problem to the game. They always have the option to piggy back certain changes to a future patch – what they’ve done is silly.

I’m a programmer. I know there’s datelines, there’s need for quick fixes, and sometimes people are given unfamiliar problems to solve and end up making things worse. I’ve been there, done that.

Maybe they don’t have enough manpower to play each class thoroughly to make balance changes. That’s fine, I suggest they hire more, but I’d understand if that isn’t feasible. So spend more time perhaps? Not feasible as well? Well, I’m sure there’s something that can be done. Test servers would help. Listening to their top players would help too. I don’t claim to be an amazing engineer, but I reckon they wouldn’t like the counter-intuitive crap KR’s been these last two patches.

But the bugs are silly. I mean c’mon, any decent programmer would test his own code before sending it down the pipe. Even if he didn’t have the time to do it, any decent QA tester would have gone through each trait/gear effecting turrets and caught the bug with Deployable Turrets. I know sometimes the coder isn’t the dev with came up with the change in the first place. But any dev with love for his work would beta test it himself to make sure it worked.

And if they did, you can bet Jon Peters or someone else would be here telling us not to worry, fixes are shipping out soon, because what company wants to look like idiots for overlooking simple testing?

Look, we’re not obliged to lick their shoes. We’re paying customers. Well, at least I am. They did a poor job with the previous KR change and this as well, and shipped bugs a kindergartner could catch. I love their game, and ANet on a whole isn’t half bad either, but if you’re too much in love with them to see and point out their faults then.. well I guess too bad.

Linnes.2678:

Calvin.5380:

Linnes.2678:

Calvin.5380:

Linnes.2678:

Calvin.5380:

Sladeakakevin.4162:

Do people seriously think that developers don’t play Engineer at all? ArenaNet is a multi-million dollar company and you SERIOUSLY don’t think their developers know a lot more about class balance than their players? It’s their job to do this, we all do it for fun. Of course they have people who play each class, it would be insane to think they don’t. A lot of these changes are made in mind with ALL other changes made to other classes, everyone likes to look at their one class and scream “STOP NERFING US!” but never take it into the big picture.

It’s not like these changes are permanent, they do a lot of things to “test the waters” and see if it works or not. These forums are a mess, crying every patch I swear.

+1

And of course, ANET hates this game. Devs want to purposefully destroy the game they spent their lives creating.

And devs hate engineers in particular, because they don’t want people to play the class. The class just happened to be there, devs never wanted it. That’s the reason why they never play it themselves. They just make random changes to classes, because they get kicks out of it. Of course, Engineers always get burnt by Dev RNG, because devs like the other seven classes better.

Yes, it all makes sense now. enlightened

No, they’re just clueless as to what to do with the class, watch the video on the update.
They’re lumping pve and pvp together, which just shouldn’t be the class. For the sake of nerfing them in pvp they literally stomped on MANY Engineer pve builds. Also, look at Rangers… the Quickness nerf lowered damage output by around 47% (tested by players, accounting for melee pets, etc).

Of course, we can assume that you know better about balance than the devs. Just the way you assumed that you’re the only person who’s seen that video.

I bow to thee, sir.

I guarantee you I could balance a class better than they could. Heck, I’d apply to Arena Net right now and completely change their department if it were up to me. I would start with Rangers first, as it’s a bit disgusting how much they neglect the class as a whole. Whoopee, this patch made greatsword better, it’s still a bad weaponset compared to traps w/ Shortbow+Sword/Dag. For one, I would not rely on pets to define the class, the skill balances were far superior in GW1 just due to the simple fact that you had the option to remove that pet, and not revolve your DPS around it. This being said, Rangers in GW1 were STILL nerfed to near pointless levels in PvE.

Izzy doesn’t know what he’s doing, Izzy does not PvP. He plays a zerker babby 4sig warrior in PvE. I have grouped with him before and have even asked him to change his build, he refused.

I commend you, dear sir, for your ability. I hope your awesomeness doesn’t make the devs insecure. I’ll eagerly wait for a few years till you reach puberty, and are able to build the game we all will love and cherish. So much hope you give me. /bow

You’re talking about maturity but you’re sounding like a smartass kid who knows when he’s wrong but tries to act like an adult just to make himself appear correct. Please grow up, these changes to Engineer WERE bad, and you have no right to even try to justify them. I suppose you think Rangers and Necromancers are perfectly balanced as well?

I must apologize. I have no rights to justify anything. I understand. I’m enlightened, yet again. This tiny speck of dust bathes in the glory of your magnificence.

Necromancers are awesome in WvW. But of course, what do I know. I’m just a kid trying to act like an adult. You see through me so clearly, dear sir.

I will stop responding now, your magnificence. It’s beyond my humble abilities to engage you in a logical conversation, my liege. Good luck with your bickering.

irakai.6891:

Also, why are the lot of you defending the devs for shipping buggy patches and making questionable changes?

It’s not like engineers are overpowered and causing imbalance in sPvP, WvW or PvE. Or are causing some irreversible problem to the game. They always have the option to piggy back certain changes to a future patch – what they’ve done is silly.

I’m a programmer. I know there’s datelines, there’s need for quick fixes, and sometimes people are given unfamiliar problems to solve and end up making things worse. I’ve been there, done that.

Maybe they don’t have enough manpower to play each class thoroughly to make balance changes. That’s fine, I suggest they hire more, but I’d understand if that isn’t feasible. So spend more time perhaps? Not feasible as well? Well, I’m sure there’s something that can be done. Test servers would help. Listening to their top players would help too. I don’t claim to be an amazing engineer, but I reckon they wouldn’t like the counter-intuitive crap KR’s been these last two patches.

But the bugs are silly. I mean c’mon, any decent programmer would test his own code before sending it down the pipe. Even if he didn’t have the time to do it, any decent QA tester would have gone through each trait/gear effecting turrets and caught the bug with Deployable Turrets. I know sometimes the coder isn’t the dev with came up with the change in the first place. But any dev with love for his work would beta test it himself to make sure it worked.

And if they did, you can bet Jon Peters or someone else would be here telling us not to worry, fixes are shipping out soon, because what company wants to look like idiots for overlooking simple testing?

Look, we’re not obliged to lick their shoes. We’re paying customers. Well, at least I am. They did a poor job with the previous KR change and this as well, and shipped bugs a kindergartner could catch. I love their game, and ANet on a whole isn’t half bad either, but if you’re too much in love with them to see and point out their faults then.. well I guess too bad.

Well said. I am a fan of arena net and I do enjoy the game, but many of their changes over the past 7 months have been extremely questionable. Making certain classes useless, going down the “money-grubbing” cash-shop aisle, ignoring the playerbase as a whole towards bug issues. They said it themselves in their interview, thieves can still pretty much 3HKO people thanks to Basilisk Venom’s bug that they’re not fixing. Scope is still busted on engineers too.

Calvin.5380:

Linnes.2678:

Calvin.5380:

Linnes.2678:

Calvin.5380:

Linnes.2678:

Calvin.5380:

Sladeakakevin.4162:

Do people seriously think that developers don’t play Engineer at all? ArenaNet is a multi-million dollar company and you SERIOUSLY don’t think their developers know a lot more about class balance than their players? It’s their job to do this, we all do it for fun. Of course they have people who play each class, it would be insane to think they don’t. A lot of these changes are made in mind with ALL other changes made to other classes, everyone likes to look at their one class and scream “STOP NERFING US!” but never take it into the big picture.

It’s not like these changes are permanent, they do a lot of things to “test the waters” and see if it works or not. These forums are a mess, crying every patch I swear.

+1

And of course, ANET hates this game. Devs want to purposefully destroy the game they spent their lives creating.

And devs hate engineers in particular, because they don’t want people to play the class. The class just happened to be there, devs never wanted it. That’s the reason why they never play it themselves. They just make random changes to classes, because they get kicks out of it. Of course, Engineers always get burnt by Dev RNG, because devs like the other seven classes better.

Yes, it all makes sense now. enlightened

No, they’re just clueless as to what to do with the class, watch the video on the update.
They’re lumping pve and pvp together, which just shouldn’t be the class. For the sake of nerfing them in pvp they literally stomped on MANY Engineer pve builds. Also, look at Rangers… the Quickness nerf lowered damage output by around 47% (tested by players, accounting for melee pets, etc).

Of course, we can assume that you know better about balance than the devs. Just the way you assumed that you’re the only person who’s seen that video.

I bow to thee, sir.

I guarantee you I could balance a class better than they could. Heck, I’d apply to Arena Net right now and completely change their department if it were up to me. I would start with Rangers first, as it’s a bit disgusting how much they neglect the class as a whole. Whoopee, this patch made greatsword better, it’s still a bad weaponset compared to traps w/ Shortbow+Sword/Dag. For one, I would not rely on pets to define the class, the skill balances were far superior in GW1 just due to the simple fact that you had the option to remove that pet, and not revolve your DPS around it. This being said, Rangers in GW1 were STILL nerfed to near pointless levels in PvE.

Izzy doesn’t know what he’s doing, Izzy does not PvP. He plays a zerker babby 4sig warrior in PvE. I have grouped with him before and have even asked him to change his build, he refused.

I commend you, dear sir, for your ability. I hope your awesomeness doesn’t make the devs insecure. I’ll eagerly wait for a few years till you reach puberty, and are able to build the game we all will love and cherish. So much hope you give me. /bow

You’re talking about maturity but you’re sounding like a smartass kid who knows when he’s wrong but tries to act like an adult just to make himself appear correct. Please grow up, these changes to Engineer WERE bad, and you have no right to even try to justify them. I suppose you think Rangers and Necromancers are perfectly balanced as well?

I must apologize. I have no rights to justify anything. I understand. I’m enlightened, yet again. This tiny speck of dust bathes in the glory of your magnificence.

Necromancers are awesome in WvW. But of course, what do I know. I’m just a kid trying to act like an adult. You see through me so clearly, dear sir.

I will stop responding now, your magnificence. It’s beyond my humble abilities to engage you in a logical conversation, my liege. Good luck with your bickering.

Just stop, you’re embarassing yourself. Necromancers have just as many broken traits as they did on launch. Also, just because something is good in one aspect of the game does not justify their lack in others. Thieves are a notable example of this, while excellent in pvp they are basically a step above rangers in pve. Elementalists, warriors, guardians, even engineers are better close ranger and necromancers, warriors, engineers, and elementalists are better than them long range.

Calvin.5380:

Linnes.2678:

Calvin.5380:

Linnes.2678:

Calvin.5380:

Linnes.2678:

Calvin.5380:

Sladeakakevin.4162:

Do people seriously think that developers don’t play Engineer at all? ArenaNet is a multi-million dollar company and you SERIOUSLY don’t think their developers know a lot more about class balance than their players? It’s their job to do this, we all do it for fun. Of course they have people who play each class, it would be insane to think they don’t. A lot of these changes are made in mind with ALL other changes made to other classes, everyone likes to look at their one class and scream “STOP NERFING US!” but never take it into the big picture.

It’s not like these changes are permanent, they do a lot of things to “test the waters” and see if it works or not. These forums are a mess, crying every patch I swear.

+1

And of course, ANET hates this game. Devs want to purposefully destroy the game they spent their lives creating.

And devs hate engineers in particular, because they don’t want people to play the class. The class just happened to be there, devs never wanted it. That’s the reason why they never play it themselves. They just make random changes to classes, because they get kicks out of it. Of course, Engineers always get burnt by Dev RNG, because devs like the other seven classes better.

Yes, it all makes sense now. enlightened

No, they’re just clueless as to what to do with the class, watch the video on the update.
They’re lumping pve and pvp together, which just shouldn’t be the class. For the sake of nerfing them in pvp they literally stomped on MANY Engineer pve builds. Also, look at Rangers… the Quickness nerf lowered damage output by around 47% (tested by players, accounting for melee pets, etc).

Of course, we can assume that you know better about balance than the devs. Just the way you assumed that you’re the only person who’s seen that video.

I bow to thee, sir.

I guarantee you I could balance a class better than they could. Heck, I’d apply to Arena Net right now and completely change their department if it were up to me. I would start with Rangers first, as it’s a bit disgusting how much they neglect the class as a whole. Whoopee, this patch made greatsword better, it’s still a bad weaponset compared to traps w/ Shortbow+Sword/Dag. For one, I would not rely on pets to define the class, the skill balances were far superior in GW1 just due to the simple fact that you had the option to remove that pet, and not revolve your DPS around it. This being said, Rangers in GW1 were STILL nerfed to near pointless levels in PvE.

Izzy doesn’t know what he’s doing, Izzy does not PvP. He plays a zerker babby 4sig warrior in PvE. I have grouped with him before and have even asked him to change his build, he refused.

I commend you, dear sir, for your ability. I hope your awesomeness doesn’t make the devs insecure. I’ll eagerly wait for a few years till you reach puberty, and are able to build the game we all will love and cherish. So much hope you give me. /bow

You’re talking about maturity but you’re sounding like a smartass kid who knows when he’s wrong but tries to act like an adult just to make himself appear correct. Please grow up, these changes to Engineer WERE bad, and you have no right to even try to justify them. I suppose you think Rangers and Necromancers are perfectly balanced as well?

I must apologize. I have no rights to justify anything. I understand. I’m enlightened, yet again. This tiny speck of dust bathes in the glory of your magnificence.

Necromancers are awesome in WvW. But of course, what do I know. I’m just a kid trying to act like an adult. You see through me so clearly, dear sir.

I will stop responding now, your magnificence. It’s beyond my humble abilities to engage you in a logical conversation, my liege. Good luck with your bickering.

I love you. Have my babies.

On topic: Engineers are cool. I like guns.

McDili.1549:

Calvin.5380:

Linnes.2678:

Calvin.5380:

Linnes.2678:

Calvin.5380:

Linnes.2678:

Calvin.5380:

Sladeakakevin.4162:

Do people seriously think that developers don’t play Engineer at all? ArenaNet is a multi-million dollar company and you SERIOUSLY don’t think their developers know a lot more about class balance than their players? It’s their job to do this, we all do it for fun. Of course they have people who play each class, it would be insane to think they don’t. A lot of these changes are made in mind with ALL other changes made to other classes, everyone likes to look at their one class and scream “STOP NERFING US!” but never take it into the big picture.

It’s not like these changes are permanent, they do a lot of things to “test the waters” and see if it works or not. These forums are a mess, crying every patch I swear.

+1

And of course, ANET hates this game. Devs want to purposefully destroy the game they spent their lives creating.

And devs hate engineers in particular, because they don’t want people to play the class. The class just happened to be there, devs never wanted it. That’s the reason why they never play it themselves. They just make random changes to classes, because they get kicks out of it. Of course, Engineers always get burnt by Dev RNG, because devs like the other seven classes better.

Yes, it all makes sense now. enlightened

No, they’re just clueless as to what to do with the class, watch the video on the update.
They’re lumping pve and pvp together, which just shouldn’t be the class. For the sake of nerfing them in pvp they literally stomped on MANY Engineer pve builds. Also, look at Rangers… the Quickness nerf lowered damage output by around 47% (tested by players, accounting for melee pets, etc).

Of course, we can assume that you know better about balance than the devs. Just the way you assumed that you’re the only person who’s seen that video.

I bow to thee, sir.

I guarantee you I could balance a class better than they could. Heck, I’d apply to Arena Net right now and completely change their department if it were up to me. I would start with Rangers first, as it’s a bit disgusting how much they neglect the class as a whole. Whoopee, this patch made greatsword better, it’s still a bad weaponset compared to traps w/ Shortbow+Sword/Dag. For one, I would not rely on pets to define the class, the skill balances were far superior in GW1 just due to the simple fact that you had the option to remove that pet, and not revolve your DPS around it. This being said, Rangers in GW1 were STILL nerfed to near pointless levels in PvE.

Izzy doesn’t know what he’s doing, Izzy does not PvP. He plays a zerker babby 4sig warrior in PvE. I have grouped with him before and have even asked him to change his build, he refused.

I commend you, dear sir, for your ability. I hope your awesomeness doesn’t make the devs insecure. I’ll eagerly wait for a few years till you reach puberty, and are able to build the game we all will love and cherish. So much hope you give me. /bow

You’re talking about maturity but you’re sounding like a smartass kid who knows when he’s wrong but tries to act like an adult just to make himself appear correct. Please grow up, these changes to Engineer WERE bad, and you have no right to even try to justify them. I suppose you think Rangers and Necromancers are perfectly balanced as well?

I must apologize. I have no rights to justify anything. I understand. I’m enlightened, yet again. This tiny speck of dust bathes in the glory of your magnificence.

Necromancers are awesome in WvW. But of course, what do I know. I’m just a kid trying to act like an adult. You see through me so clearly, dear sir.

I will stop responding now, your magnificence. It’s beyond my humble abilities to engage you in a logical conversation, my liege. Good luck with your bickering.

I love you. Have my babies.

On topic: Engineers are cool. I like guns.

Thou shalt not troll a fellow troll.

On topic: I agree!

irakai.6891:

…

Yes I’ve tried Turret builds pre-patch. My impression has always been that Turrets are too vulnerable. That doesn’t make my impression correct though, and with these changes I see many of the Turrets being more feasible to use. A pair of damage Turrets right now appear to actually be rather threatening. What I see are steps on the right path from ANet involving turrets. Are they done? I’m not sure. I think Turrets could very well be viable and competitive now in some situations. The keyword is could though, as with first glance I think there still needs to be more work in the area.

That is also what I got from the State of the Game discussion. They have the right plan. The right ideas. Buffing things that are weak so that build diversity is increased. That is the fundamental problem in Guild Wars 2 and they are frankly addressing it. I think a key difference in the dissent between many opinions and my own though is I acknowledge that these things are going to take time. The Engineer is not the only profession and they are trying to be careful about not overpowering anything. No matter how good your QA team is, things will get through a patch that are suddenly way stronger then you anticipated. They’ve been really good at not letting those things through via their small incremental changes. I like this and I think it’s wonderful design. This is why I’m optimistic.

Specifically with Kit Refinement, I think people will figure out how to make good use of it. It will take a bit of work, especially in multi-kit builds, but I think it still has a place. I don’t think this trait is lost by any means, and I don’t think it was necessarily to a successful direct-dmg build.

When you mention playing a class throughout, what level is through enough for you? No single person will find all the quirks, bugs, strengths, and weaknesses of a class if they specifically played it trying to find them all for years. When I looked at Kit Refinement forever involving Grenade Kit, did I ever think to try to and stand inside someone and use it? Heck no, and I don’t see why they would’ve picked up on that either. I’m sure they found tons of abusive mechanics that none of us will ever know of. That’s why I think this kind of discussion is absurd, because we pick apart the small things that make it through (like they do in every game) while having no knowledge of all the other stuff that has been caught. It’s a huge difference in perspective.

I didn’t mean to say that you said they should be fired, but I do think some people have been skirting the line or have actually said it. That or the discussion has been very close to that sort of thing. This may be an assumption on my part though, or maybe it’s coming from some of the stuff over from the sPvP forums. Just to be clear though, I didn’t mean to imply you said they should be fired and I apologize for that.

Sladeakakevin.4162:

Do people seriously think that developers don’t play Engineer at all? ArenaNet is a multi-million dollar company and you SERIOUSLY don’t think their developers know a lot more about class balance than their players? It’s their job to do this, we all do it for fun. Of course they have people who play each class, it would be insane to think they don’t. A lot of these changes are made in mind with ALL other changes made to other classes, everyone likes to look at their one class and scream “STOP NERFING US!” but never take it into the big picture.

It’s not like these changes are permanent, they do a lot of things to “test the waters” and see if it works or not. These forums are a mess, crying every patch I swear.

Yes, I didn’t believe that until that patch, but now I am pretty sure about that. Remember that recent interview with the devs? They made the impression as if they have no clue at all about certain classes, just watch their faces or their reactions and the recent patch proved my instincts right. The Engineer has been bad before that patch and now he’s even worse.

What do you think? Does it look like if they have a clue to you?

Ayestes.1273:

irakai.6891:

…

Yes I’ve tried Turret builds pre-patch. My impression has always been that Turrets are too vulnerable. That doesn’t make my impression correct though, and with these changes I see many of the Turrets being more feasible to use. A pair of damage Turrets right now appear to actually be rather threatening. What I see are steps on the right path from ANet involving turrets. Are they done? I’m not sure. I think Turrets could very well be viable and competitive now in some situations. The keyword is could though, as with first glance I think there still needs to be more work in the area.

That is also what I got from the State of the Game discussion. They have the right plan. The right ideas. Buffing things that are weak so that build diversity is increased. That is the fundamental problem in Guild Wars 2 and they are frankly addressing it. I think a key difference in the dissent between many opinions and my own though is I acknowledge that these things are going to take time. The Engineer is not the only profession and they are trying to be careful about not overpowering anything. No matter how good your QA team is, things will get through a patch that are suddenly way stronger then you anticipated. They’ve been really good at not letting those things through via their small incremental changes. I like this and I think it’s wonderful design. This is why I’m optimistic.

Specifically with Kit Refinement, I think people will figure out how to make good use of it. It will take a bit of work, especially in multi-kit builds, but I think it still has a place. I don’t think this trait is lost by any means, and I don’t think it was necessarily to a successful direct-dmg build.

When you mention playing a class throughout, what level is through enough for you? No single person will find all the quirks, bugs, strengths, and weaknesses of a class if they specifically played it trying to find them all for years. When I looked at Kit Refinement forever involving Grenade Kit, did I ever think to try to and stand inside someone and use it? Heck no, and I don’t see why they would’ve picked up on that either. I’m sure they found tons of abusive mechanics that none of us will ever know of. That’s why I think this kind of discussion is absurd, because we pick apart the small things that make it through (like they do in every game) while having no knowledge of all the other stuff that has been caught. It’s a huge difference in perspective.

I didn’t mean to say that you said they should be fired, but I do think some people have been skirting the line or have actually said it. That or the discussion has been very close to that sort of thing. This may be an assumption on my part though, or maybe it’s coming from some of the stuff over from the sPvP forums. Just to be clear though, I didn’t mean to imply you said they should be fired and I apologize for that.

The problem is, 100nades wasn’t even that overpowered. It was a flavor of the month pvp build that engineers played because “lol everyone says it’s good.” Crit rifle engineers were vastly superior.

Sladeakakevin.4162:

Do people seriously think that developers don’t play Engineer at all? ArenaNet is a multi-million dollar company and you SERIOUSLY don’t think their developers know a lot more about class balance than their players?

Yes.

Do you honestly think that their few dozen employees can build up to the same creativity in builds and the same level of metric as the few million players of their playerbase?
A playerbase that houses all kinds of players, including super competitive players.

ANet tests stuff in a sterile environment and with a very small test group that also has to test other professions.
If they knew more then the players there would never have to be any nerfs, because they wouldve anticipated an overpowered profession/build before the players got to it. And yet, they always miss the boat and manage to make blatantly wrong choices.

Need i remind you of the infamous profession description a few months back? Or point out how this description is suddenly, hilariously, different from what the devs are now saying Engineer is all about in a recent interview?

Ayestes.1273:

irakai.6891:

…

Yes I’ve tried Turret builds pre-patch. My impression has always been that Turrets are too vulnerable. That doesn’t make my impression correct though, and with these changes I see many of the Turrets being more feasible to use.

I’m not the best engineer out there, but I can tell you any class with any build that has has half decent AoE can take out turrets easily while still hurting the engineer, if he places the turrets close by. I’ve been nading turret engineers all day.

Targeting is still crap. Rifle is completely useless against the illusion/pet classes. Luckily, its great for Static Discharge. Flame and Thumper are AoE so they’re.. okay I guess? But they haven’t really changed anything fundamental. This buff is like giving an broken car a new paintjob and rims. It looks nice, still doesn’t start.

Now I know ANet likes to take things slow, but I don’t know what they’re going to get out of this change. A better way to start would have been to drop the cooldowns or increase survivability across the board so they can actually watch turrets in play, rather than… die in seconds and provide no useful data other than that “they die in seconds”.

Ayestes.1273:

That is also what I got from the State of the Game discussion. They have the right plan. The right ideas. Buffing things that are weak so that build diversity is increased.

The problem is this patch hasn’t really made any new builds viable, at least in sPvP.

Okay, maybe I’m wrong and bad at playing my engineer. But we all agree that they’ve gutted 100nades, and any other build that revolved around the old KR right? They’ve also hurt EG-centric builds with the Rifled Barrels fix.

Maybe there’s some magical turret build I haven’t found. Perhaps someone’s found a way to let their turrets survive more than a few seconds. Maybe KR’s actually very good and someone managed to reliably use it in a hectic fight.

Perhaps I’m not completely horrible and turrets and KR are broken. Can we agree then, that they’ve actually lowered our build diversity?

Honestly, I hope I’m the problem. It’ll be a lot easier for me to learn a new build than to get them to patch things.

Ayestes.1273:

Specifically with Kit Refinement, I think people will figure out how to make good use of it. It will take a bit of work, especially in multi-kit builds, but I think it still has a place. I don’t think this trait is lost by any means, and I don’t think it was necessarily to a successful direct-dmg build.

True, you can do pretty decent burst with a number of Power Rifle builds without the old KR.

The key here is control. This trait is stupid because we cannot properly control it without drastically sacrificing flexibility in kit swapping. It doesn’t matter what it does. It could fire cats and dogs out of our backpack for all I care. It just has to do it when I want it to.

Ayestes.1273:

When you mention playing a class throughout, what level is through enough for you? No single person will find all the quirks, bugs, strengths, and weaknesses of a class if they specifically played it trying to find them all for years.

I understand its very hard to find bugs and overpowered mechanics as a dev. When you design or code something, its your baby and you’ll find it harder to find the problems with it. It’s always better to have someone look at your work to tell you if anything is wrong. That’s why there are concepts like pair programming.

There’s also not enough time in the world to thoroughly test something as complicated as a class on your own. But its entirely possible to play a class in your free time while having fun and learning lots about it. If you like a class, you’ll also find out what other players are doing with it and learn what’s trending.

100nades survived a very long time for something the class balance team considered too powerful. If it hadn’t gotten so much attention and vitrol from the other classes, they’d have blissfully ignored it.

This shows a certain amount of detachment from them. As though they look at the engineer not from the player’s seat, but from the public’s perspective. The changes they made to KR just amplifies this sense of detachment. All I’m saying is they need to get attached to the class to have their vision make sense to the rest of us.

But that’s not the only way forward. They could also use public test servers. Or they should try speaking to the community.. or at least the top % of the community. It’s hard to judge who belongs in the top % for WvW and PvE, but its entirely possible in sPvP.

And as I’ve said before, unless the top engineers are playing a different game than we are they would not think the recent changes to KR cooldowns are good. They would also have picked up on the bugs with turrets almost immediately.

irakai.6891:

That’s all we ask. It’s not a lot to ask and it shouldn’t be asked, but in light of the recent changes it seems necessary.

It’s nice that we’re getting some attention and bug fixes. Thanks for that, even though we came out significantly weaker because of it.

But it feels like no play testing has been done at all, as evident by KR having stupid hidden global cooldown, which makes trying to proc the desired effect in the heat of battle nearly impossible with 2-3 kits, as well as Flame Turret being broken with Deployable Turrets, a trait you’d most likely have if you play tested a turret engineer.

Now I’m sure you have a reason for not having public test servers. But since you don’t, could you please assign someone to play the class on a regular basis? Preferably in tPvP or sPvP?

Thanks.

I’ve never, never, never, never, never, NEVER, seen any class in the game complain about the Engineer as “too strong (or a similar wording)” since the first beta a year ago. A long long long time ago.

So why did somone feel it was necessary to “adjust” Kit Refinement? Grenade Barrage I used often, as I could keep track of it to cause a burst effect.

It wasn’t some “OH MAH GAWD LOOK AT MY LEET NUMBERS!”

It was “oh look, every 20 seconds I can finally burst evenly with those around me.”

I keep wondering, why is one profession able to constantly have a level of damage, defense, or healing options kept high, but our Engineer profession is constantly “tweaked” to make it subpar to those around us.

Overall, the fixes outweigh the breaking, but the breaking hits CORE features of our builds. That… is just not acceptable.

All the indications are that ANet is theory-crafting the Eng class, far more than they are paying attention to how people use and want to use this class. The result: changes that look sensible on paper but suck in reality.

KR is a classic example. Sure, it was uneven and more powerful in some builds than you’d expect for a 10pt trait. But it was also filling a gaping hole in our traits: reward for multi-kit builds (kits aren’t free, they take up a slot and toolbelt that can’t be used for anything else). A lot of Engs running multi-kit builds needed the boost the old KR trait gave to make those builds viable. That’s where ANet’s theory crafting of the KR changes failed.

With KR, ANet thought they were just balancing a 10pt trait. Instead they were removing a capability that was needed to make a significant proportion of Eng builds viable – and they appear to have had no idea they were doing that!

TLDR: ANet aren’t paying attention to how people actually use/want to use this class.
Result: Repeated changes to the Eng class that suck when implemented.

Sladeakakevin.4162:

Do people seriously think that developers don’t play Engineer at all? ArenaNet is a multi-million dollar company and you SERIOUSLY don’t think their developers know a lot more about class balance than their players? It’s their job to do this, we all do it for fun. Of course they have people who play each class, it would be insane to think they don’t. A lot of these changes are made in mind with ALL other changes made to other classes, everyone likes to look at their one class and scream “STOP NERFING US!” but never take it into the big picture.

It’s not like these changes are permanent, they do a lot of things to “test the waters” and see if it works or not. These forums are a mess, crying every patch I swear.

And…. where on the forums did you see anyone crying about the Engineers needing to be fixed because they were so OP? It didn’t happen. And what Engineers could do with the old Kit Refinement was not trivializing content. It had no point to be changed, besides the uselessness of some of the old abilities. (the new Bomb and Med Kit ones are much better)

People can complain AND see the big picture. We all know when our beloved profession has something wrong with it because it is too powerful. Remember Pistol Mesmer anyone? There is nothing wrong with bringing an ability into line with the rest. And many Mesmers expected, defended, and accepted the change. They knew it was needed, as it was cheap.

But when an ability is completely 100% fine, and we still end up losing it…. it makes no sense. It is a key ability. It is used specifically for a certain playstyle. It was fun.

What if Anet sees too many Engineers with cookie-cutter builds? Well, to make Engineers stop being the same, they ruin the key features of a popular build to force Engineers to “have fun” being different. This is my opinion.

We lost a fun ability because Anet is picking how we can have fun. My view on the matter.

Zenguy.6421:

All the indications are that ANet is theory-crafting the Eng class, far more than they are paying attention to how people use and want to use this class. The result: changes that look sensible on paper but suck in reality.

KR is a classic example. Sure, it was uneven and more powerful in some builds than you’d expect for a 10pt trait. But it was also filling a gaping hole in our traits: reward for multi-kit builds (kits aren’t free, they take up a slot and toolbelt that can’t be used for anything else). A lot of Engs running multi-kit builds needed the boost the old KR trait gave to make those builds viable. That’s where ANet’s theory crafting of the KR changes failed.

With KR, ANet thought they were just balancing a 10pt trait. Instead they were removing a capability that was needed to make a significant proportion of Eng builds viable – and they appear to have had no idea they were doing that!

TLDR: ANet aren’t paying attention to how people actually use/want to use this class.
Result: Repeated changes to the Eng class that suck when implemented.

Great point

Kit Refinement allowed for muti-kits, because we could feel ok about not pouring all our traits into buffing 1 kit only.

We can either buff 1 kit to max and rely on it 100%, and never use our other utility. Or, we can be weaker and have more utility.

We lost some utility.

There needs to be a new patch that reverts this patch. At least to some degree.

Terrahero.9358:

Need i remind you of the infamous profession description a few months back? Or point out how this description is suddenly, hilariously, different from what the devs are now saying Engineer is all about in a recent interview?

Oh. I’m curious. What is an Engineer now?

nope, the definition stays, we’re suppost to be able to control the battle field.. there is 1 problem we don’t have control!! wait… thump turret can now apply 3s cripple before it dies!! Whoo hoo we OP!! we’re gonna get Nerfed again next month!

Hsinimod.5784:

Terrahero.9358:

Need i remind you of the infamous profession description a few months back? Or point out how this description is suddenly, hilariously, different from what the devs are now saying Engineer is all about in a recent interview?

Oh. I’m curious. What is an Engineer now?

Apparently we are suppose to be a mid-range skirmisher. Which as far as i can tell, isnt even a thing in this game.

Unless the idea sits well with you that we are being designed for the purpose of getting in close enough to be under fire from REAL ranged, to prod a bit (not do any serious damage) and then back away again.

Sounds like a good idea? Sounds like fun?

zaxon.6819:

im just here to third the UO was great comment.

havent seen more complex pvp then 2 7x anatomy mages fighitng. until Tom Chilton “kalgan” ruined it with age of shadows(then moved on to ruin wow pvp).

tom chilton is still ruining wow today pvp nerf bat gets swung daily. the guy single handedly ruined ultima online. he was the 1 person responsable. then he got hired by wow to do the same thing for all these years.

heres my point .. dont think because someoen has done something for a long time or because someone throws a bunch of money at them that they are good at thier job.

im not saying that it makes them bad either. ..

AoS was indeed crap. UO ended then for me for the most part. Pre-AoS was the best.

Linnes.2678:

..

I’d generally agree the build wasn’t that overpowered, but there were certain aspects of it that made it different compared to other burst options. I think it had two qualities that made it even more frustrating than Thief or Warrior burst. One being that it would work at a range, and continue to stay at a range when performed via the Magnet Pull. The other was that the damage part of the combo was entirely done in a single global and just a single Grenade Barrage alone is around the same relative strength as a Thief Backstab yet we were effectively doing two of them. It was hard as all heck to land certainly, but when it was pulled off unless they some decent intentionally stacked defenses or Protection then they were pretty much dead or nearly dead.

I mean, I think the burst in this game is a little too strong as it stands. They nerfed the heck out of Quickness, so I don’t see why it wasn’t appropriate to remove some of the burst off a Power Nade build either. Which is especially the case when the concept of standing inside your opponent to deal the proc barrage damage was so obtuse. HGH Power Nades is still frightening to see when that single Grenade Barrage can do 2/3 of the original combo still, and has vicious amounts of condi-dmg for direct-dmg build. I think we are okay in this area.

irakai.6891:

…

I honestly thought I had acknowledged turret fragility in one of my posts here, if I haven’t I apologize. I know how weak they are to AoE. I kill them without problem lately in hotjoin as a Condi-Burst build. I know Turret AI is junk and since the devs have already said that’s a problem I figure they are working on that still. That doesn’t mean they aren’t viable. I mean most people still group their darn turrets up at a control point and then complain they get AoE’d on. I don’t think I’ve ever seen another Engineer in-game actually put a Rocket & Rifle Turret off-point before and make me choose to have to go kill them individually or take the punishment they can now deliver. Really here, the whole point is I don’t know if they are viable or not, but I’m not going to simply claim they aren’t viable because no one knows yet if that’s true.

In terms of build diversity we still have a fair bunch. HGH builds are what I’d consider the community finds at minimum usable in tPvP. Inside HGH builds there is actually a fair amount of diversity in terms of direct-dmg, condi-dmg, Grenade Kit, Tool Kit, and I’ve heard tale of some using Bomb Kit successfully in that kind of setup. Duo Kits without a stun break is actually pretty reasonable now too without insta-gibs from Quickness. This build opened up the possibility of some successful turret builds and improved the Static Discharge build. The last patch opened up the possible success of the Flamethrower in a control-damage build. I mean, the entire point of the mostly buff-centric patch notes concerning the Engineer is to bring other builds into viability. I really think we gained more then we lost, especially since HGH Power Nades simply takes the place of 100 Nades now.

Don’t call yourself bad, I highly doubt that. The average person who goes on a gaming forums is generally much better than the average player. I can’t know this for certain, as there is no way to really get to know someone through a short forum discussion, but I think if there is a problem is just mentally. By that I mean you might be handicapping yourself by restricting yourself on builds because you potentially just see as non-viable without really heavily playtesting it. There are so many common things people say we absolutely need in our builds… but do we actually need them? Playing with low amounts of condi-removal, without stun breaks, without maximum damage, and many other common lines of thinking aren’t necessarily correct.

In terms of 100 Nades, I imagine the delay was primarily because they weren’t sure if they should get rid of it. Given this is all speculation, but simply because they take a while at nerfing the build doesn’t show detachment to me. It shows patience, testing, and responsibility. Again here, perspective changes a lot how you can look at something. When you see something negative and I see something positive, what does it mean?

Would a Public Test Server be a good thing for GW2? Probably, I’d love to see it. I mean I agree I think things would be much better in general with a PTS then the way things are now. Perhaps we could catch some of those bugs and the like before they go live that they didn’t find. Maybe our balance feedback could be continual rather than monthly. That being said, I highly doubt they are structured internally to deal with a PTS and the introduction of it is ultimately up to them.

Ayestes.1273:

…

It’s easy to see why they removed 100nades in light of the quickness nerf, and if I’m honest with myself the old KR was a little too powerful for certain bunker builds too. Before someone comes in and tells me how eles and mesmers get powerful low cost traits too, I’m aware but I don’t really want to compare classes – that’s ANet’s design vision and I don’t play enough of anything but engineer and mesmer to form a useful opinion.

Regarding the new KR, I’ve spent the last two days trying out every effect and forming combos around them. I can tell you MagBomb and Glue Trail have potential – only if you don’t overload your slots with kits and make them impossible to reliably trigger. I found myself using Healing Turret even though I love the Medkit because I cannot afford to have a magnetic shield pop seconds before I need to toss out a magnetic bomb. Kit Refinement is making me limit my kit slots. /sigh

With the global internal cooldown this is the logical way to use KR now. I really wonder if its worth 10 points for a single semi-useful effect on a hidden 20 second cooldown. If I take a step back and look at my current list of builds for sPvP, I’ve benched every single one that had 3 kits, and reworked a few that used 2. It’s pretty scary how build defining the old KR was, and how useless the new one is in comparison.

Maybe they’re not idiots and they’re trying to steer us towards less kit usage. But why though? It makes no sense, what does that accomplish? You say their goal is build diversity, so where does this KR change fit into it?

If they really wanted to give us more build diversity, couldn’t they have looked at bugged and broken traits like Scope and Acidic Elixirs? Perhaps make some of our Grandmaster traits have more impact? Look at Armor Mods and Adrenal Implants. Why couldn’t they just have swapped the old KR with one of those?

I still stand by my opinion that ANet are detached. They have their vision of what the engineer should be, and apparently multikit engineers with the old KR are too strong to be in it. 100nades is too much burst to have since quickness was nerf. That’s is fine. I’m sure they have numbers and trends to back up their changes.

However their new KR is too clunky to be used with multikits which is counter-intuitive, and turret buffs don’t address the most pressing issues with turret builds. The things they changed that worked on paper worked, but not the things that needed practical testing.

Sigh. I wish I still had your faith in ANet. I guess that’s where we differ – you think they’re patient and responsible, I think they have detached designers who have no time to play the classes they’re changing. I think they are understaffed with a mountain of backlogged bugs and issues to fix with no manpower to do it. Maybe we’re both wrong and the reality is somewhere in between.

I hope I’m just being overtly pessimistic. I do like the game after all.

zaxon.6819:

im just here to third the UO was great comment.

havent seen more complex pvp then 2 7x anatomy mages fighitng. until Tom Chilton “kalgan” ruined it with age of shadows(then moved on to ruin wow pvp).

tom chilton is still ruining wow today pvp nerf bat gets swung daily. the guy single handedly ruined ultima online. he was the 1 person responsable. then he got hired by wow to do the same thing for all these years.

heres my point .. dont think because someoen has done something for a long time or because someone throws a bunch of money at them that they are good at thier job.

im not saying that it makes them bad either. ..

Loved anat mage even before hally change made them more popular, although I did sometimes mace, g.heal q ’staff etc. Age of shadow grindfest was such a travesty, far worse than the more talked about trammel.

Some of the dA-net ev decisions clearly demonstrate, indisputably, that they don’t understand or play this particular class except very casually.

I bet every single person arguing in this thread would have caught that deployable turrets needs to use the turrets from the correct patch, that the big smokebomb nerf needed to include a good change to the GM trait that triggers smokebomb, that removing stability from FT meant adding access elsewhere, that changing 100 nades doesn’t mean removing kit refinement and replacing it with drooling kit idiocy, that food changes would impact FT aspects, the list goes on and on.

The devs don’t have a big enough class team. They need minimum 1 dedicated class specialist for each class on top of some generalists.

Devs aren’t sacred cows, or infallible super humans, and the class team is clearly over-worked and under staffed.

Some players can have an extremely good grasp of the micro cosm and the macro meta in a mmo (especially those who have ben pvp-ing since the inception of the genre with UO

I know this sounds like I’m rooting for another team, but Blizzard had the right idea to apply a test server where players can visit and try out possible patches.

• It lets the devs get active feedback from players who have experience with the classes they enjoy the most. Let your consumers work for you (for free, of course) so you can bring them balanced changes that they accept.

• It lets players know of possible nerfs or buffs and gives them a chance to formulate plans based on these changes.

• It limits the whining and complaining (even a little less complaining is good!)

I’m not sure exactly how hard this would be for them. They don’t automatically get money from players every month like Blizzard.

But this would be the best idea in my mind.