Guild Wars 2

Kits are balanced against exotics. Ascended and legendary vertical power creep has changed the playing field. Did we ever get any official response on when or if kits will get adjusted to the new playing field?

no official response

No, we didn’t. But I don’t think we need it any more than conjured weapons do.

wut? we definitely need it and i hope they fix it soon. jan 21st cross fingers

Phineas Poe.3018:

No, we didn’t. But I don’t think we need it any more than conjured weapons do.

Albeit, elementalists aren’t balanced taking in account they’ll use those, unlike us with kits.

And i seem to remember a dev post where it was explicitely said about kits getting an increase when ascended weapons would have been implemented. Now, if only i could find that exact post…

I’d rather have them just admit that scaling the raw DPS on Ascended weapons was a bad idea, and revert it. Keep only the 5% increase on stats, similar to jewelry.

With that change, the need to adapt kits would also ~evaporate.

ellesee.8297:

we definitely need it

How so?

Phineas Poe.3018:

ellesee.8297:

we definitely need it

How so?

Just FYI here some weapons strength numbers:

asc./leg. greatsword – 1100
exotic greatsword – 1047,5
asc./leg. axe – 1000
exotic axe – 952,5
engi kit – 923,5

Everybody’s damage is increased by 5% with leg./asc. weapons, while 90% of our damage is not. While 5% may not be game breaking, it is an unnecessary and unjustified disadvantage. I want a reward for the time spent in crafting ascended gear.

Unless you want to claim that engineers were OP in damage compared to other classes, before ascended weapons were introduced. In which case you must be asking for a nerf in kit damage as other classes don’t have access to ascended weapons in sPvP.

Here is as close to an official response as we got. When ascended weapons first came out there was an ‘unintended’ increase in damage for engi kits, ele summons, and warrior banners. This was hotfixed within about a day or so. I tried to bring this up again when ascended armor came out, now that people can get a furthur 5% base armor, our kit damage is falling behind even more.

Mork vom Ork.2598:

Phineas Poe.3018:

ellesee.8297:

we definitely need it

How so?

Just FYI here some weapons strength numbers:

asc./leg. greatsword – 1100
exotic greatsword – 1047,5
asc./leg. axe – 1000
exotic axe – 952,5
engi kit – 923,5

Everybody’s damage is increased by 5% with leg./asc. weapons, while 90% of our damage is not. While 5% may not be game breaking, it is an unnecessary and unjustified disadvantage. I want a reward for the time spent in crafting ascended gear.

Unless you want to claim that engineers were OP in damage compared to other classes, before ascended weapons were introduced. In which case you must be asking for a nerf in kit damage as other classes don’t have access to ascended weapons in sPvP.

For kits it’s 969 weapon strength, not 923.

And you can’t make that statement like it’s by itself supposed to mean something. You have to understand that weapon strength is only one part of the equation. The elixir gun and the grenade kit both have equal weapon strength, but look how much damage Fumigate does compared to Shrapnel Grenade. So weapon damage actually matters very little in the grand scheme of things.

The bomb kit may have lower weapon strength than a guardian’s sword, but our auto-attack overall scales significantly better with power (125% every .91 seconds versus 80%/80%/150% every 2.5 seconds). It’s actually the best auto-attack in the game, as it scales so well with power and can also have a radius of 240.

You then have to take into consideration traits that bolster damage and effectiveness of each weapon. The grenade kit self-stacks 25 vulnerability easily, while the bomb kit can be used to stack 12-15 might for your entire group. Between Explosive Powder, Target The Maimed, and Modified Ammo, you’re also looking at a potential 39% damage increase to your attacks.

There’s absolutely nothing stopping the engineer from matching equal output to most if not all dps builds in the game that don’t involve wielding a fiery greatsword. Elementalist beats all in such situations with Fiery Rush (with autotargeting off), but it’s conditional on positioning.

The fiery greatsword is also a bundle, therefore it’s equal to kits in that regard. Do you see elementalists complaining anywhere about this?

Why should we?

Eles did complain when they nerfed it.

I agree about the damage of the weapon not being the end all, but it is something that should be considered as the difference is noticeable.

You can make a good ele build without conjured weapons. Can you show me one for Eng without any kits? That’s why I see them as being somewhat similar but different because of the classes.

IMO they’ll fix both of these things eventually but it’ll be alongside making kits scale up/down with your weapons.

Aberrant.6749:

I agree about the damage of the weapon not being the end all, but it is something that should be considered.

I did consider it. I actually put a lot of thought in writing that post, so I’m disappointed that you think I’m glossing over the details.

I just don’t think it’s something that you need to be up in arms over. Apparently the devs don’t think so either. It’s a change that should be made in the future, but I’m not going to look the other way when people lie about the real severity of the issue.

Aberrant.6749:

You can make a good ele build without conjured weapons. Can you show me one for Eng without any kits? That’s why I see them as being somewhat similar but different because of the classes.

That’s an entirely separate issue and has nothing to do with the topic here. But even if it did, that’s kind of a weird question. The best engineer builds make use of kits just as much as the best warrior builds make use of banners and the best ranger builds make use of spirits. There’s unequal weight among skill subsets in every single class, and if you want to do nothing but wield a rifle or pistol, you’re probably barking up the wrong tree playing the engineer.

We joke about signet warriors and spirit weapon guardians, but is refusing to use kits any different? You’re handicapping the potential of the class significantly. Even Static Discharge and P/P HGH builds make use of at least one kit.

Oh I agree that it’s not something to freak out over, and I’m also fine that it’s going to happen in the future. I just mistook you for trying to reason that it basically doesn’t matter at all. My bad

I agree that comparing different classes is a dangerous thing to do. That’s why I thought it was weird to compare ele weapons vs eng kits being similarly detrimental to their classes for not to scale in the first place. I totally agree that things are different because of the different classes they are on and how they are utilized in those classes.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Mork vom Ork.2598:

Phineas Poe.3018:

ellesee.8297:

we definitely need it

How so?

Just FYI here some weapons strength numbers:

asc./leg. greatsword – 1100
exotic greatsword – 1047,5
asc./leg. axe – 1000
exotic axe – 952,5
engi kit – 923,5

Everybody’s damage is increased by 5% with leg./asc. weapons, while 90% of our damage is not. While 5% may not be game breaking, it is an unnecessary and unjustified disadvantage. I want a reward for the time spent in crafting ascended gear.

Unless you want to claim that engineers were OP in damage compared to other classes, before ascended weapons were introduced. In which case you must be asking for a nerf in kit damage as other classes don’t have access to ascended weapons in sPvP.

For kits it’s 969 weapon strength, not 923.

And you can’t make that statement like it’s by itself supposed to mean something. You have to understand that weapon strength is only one part of the equation. The elixir gun and the grenade kit both have equal weapon strength, but look how much damage Fumigate does compared to Shrapnel Grenade. So weapon damage actually matters very little in the grand scheme of things.

The bomb kit may have lower weapon strength than a guardian’s sword, but our auto-attack overall scales significantly better with power (125% every .91 seconds versus 80%/80%/150% every 2.5 seconds). It’s actually the best auto-attack in the game, as it scales so well with power and can also have a radius of 240.

You then have to take into consideration traits that bolster damage and effectiveness of each weapon. The grenade kit self-stacks 25 vulnerability easily, while the bomb kit can be used to stack 12-15 might for your entire group. Between Explosive Powder, Target The Maimed, and Modified Ammo, you’re also looking at a potential 39% damage increase to your attacks.

There’s absolutely nothing stopping the engineer from matching equal output to most if not all dps builds in the game that don’t involve wielding a fiery greatsword. Elementalist beats all in such situations with Fiery Rush (with autotargeting off), but it’s conditional on positioning.

The fiery greatsword is also a bundle, therefore it’s equal to kits in that regard. Do you see elementalists complaining anywhere about this?

Why should we?

969 is the displayed weapon damage maximum in the paperdoll screen (attack – power), just as it displays 1100 for an ascended axe. The weapon strength is the average between max. and min. damage values which is 878 – 969 for kits, so the weapon strength is 923,5 (or 1000 for the axe)

I know quite well what an engineer is capable of and that has not changed much since before ascended gear was added. All other classes damage (and armor) was buffed however.

But you didn’t answer my question: If you say our pre ascended kits are ok vs. ascended gear, then clearly kit damage needs to be nerfed in PvP, as ascended gear does not exist there. Do you agree?

As for the severity of this “nerf”, we manage to live with it, as we do with so many other things. It’s just really annoying to be left out of new content again only this time it’s not just cosmetics:

• legendary effects/display – not for kit engies
• fancy new backslot skin – not for the hobo with the sac
• new rune reward for end game pve – not for the engie
• 5% more damage – not for kit engies

What is the incentive for an engineer to craft ascended weapons? 30 more stat points (infusions included)?

Phineas Poe.3018:

You then have to take into consideration traits that bolster damage and effectiveness of each weapon. The grenade kit self-stacks 25 vulnerability easily, while the bomb kit can be used to stack 12-15 might for your entire group. Between Explosive Powder, Target The Maimed, and Modified Ammo, you’re also looking at a potential 39% damage increase to your attacks.

Until you realize that the other classes have similar buffs with traits and can get might as well (and even without wasting multiple blast finishers – thus skills you’re using – to do so).
If your point is that we’re fine because we can be on par with the others by stacking a lot of might and traits, i would say there is some problem in the balance.

And regarding bomb autoattack, or kits in that regard, they’re all quite different from normal weapons. Bombs and grenades have all the other weapon attacks as a condition+ some damage (and apart for a few exception, quite a little one, and even the high ones aren’t exactly bursty). Because putting high damage or strong peculiar effects on freely swappable kits would have been terrible for balance (especially with multiple kits) so the only way it could be balanced decently is by putting the bulk of the damage on the autoattacks to make it a good sustained damage.

Regarding the issue with ascended, the matter is quite simple: others have been powered up in pve/wvsw due to ascended weapon damage while we’re still dealing the same damage with the weapons we’re supposed to use most of the time according to their balancing and the penalties we have anyway even if we didn’t want to use them.

Mork vom Ork.2598:

What is the incentive for an engineer to craft ascended weapons? 30 more stat points (infusions included)?

Every single slot of gear on my engineer is ascended. Amulet, rings, earrings, backpiece, and—more recently—armor. Infused rings and backpiece. And I have The Predator.

I have 4 other 80s. I play them all frequently, but as someone that plays the engineer most in WvW, it only made sense to put it on my engineer so that I could swap its stats at will. I can go between Sentinel’s and Berserker’s by just double-clicking the weapon. When I go to Tequatl I can swap to Soldier’s. When I’m running Balthazar or Grenth, I can swap to Cleric’s. If I’m running the grenade kit, I can swap to Rampager’s.

I do not regret for a second going for a legendary on my engineer. Every class in this game uses more than one weapon, except I guess elementalist who can get by just going S/D or staff the entire time. So the whole “But kits!” argument really never resonated with me.

I am constantly swapping to my rifle to fire off Blunderbuss and Jump Shot regardless of what build I’m running, largely in part because those two skills are so powerful. And even if I didn’t, I still enjoy the luxury of having an ascended-level weapon given that regardless of what kit I’m wielding I have 10 AR slotted. Gearing up my other 80s by comparison was a much more obnoxious endeavor. I had to make an axe, mace, greatsword, and longbow for my warrior alone.

In some respects we have it easier than others. I couldn’t imagine getting 4 legendaries for a single character, and yet the rifle is all I need for engineer.

I’m all glad for you having a legendary, I play GW2 since beta and haven’t seen a single precursor drop in any of my groups. To get enough gold to buy one, I would have to give up my RL job to grind gold.

And you did not answer the question: What is the incentive for an engineer to craft ascended (not legendary) weapons?

What was the incentive for an engineer to craft exotic weapons over keeping rare ones? Why not just run with a masterwork rifle?

There’s best-in-slot gear and then there isn’t. If you want to kitten yourself, fine. But an engineer does use his rifle and pistol, and integrates their skills into a rotation even when wielding kits. At least a good one does.

You can buy exotics for cheap on the AH or trade them in for dungeon markers.
The grind/cost for an ascended is nowhere near comparable to an exotic and should bring an equal reward no matter what your profession is.

I do integrate my weapon skills in my rotation, but as I play mostly P/S their damage does not matter..

Mork vom Ork.2598:

You can buy exotics for cheap on the AH or trade them in for dungeon markers. The grind/cost for an ascended is nowhere near comparable to an exotic and should bring an equal reward no matter what your profession is.

Be that as it may, if engineer is your main/only character, are you really going to just sit there in exotics? The amount of grind is really beside the point when it’s all you have left to work on, and I think you’re greatly overstating how much effort it takes.

There’s plenty of advantages to go after legendary weapons and ascended gear, largely in part if you like doing FOTM and play your engineer in more than just PvE, and in multiple different situations.

If you don’t want to do it, then don’t do it. But don’t say that we have no reason to go for it just because we happen to wield kits.

We have very limited benefits while still paying the full cost of the weapon, compared to the other classes.
If it wasn’t for the infusion slot, i could have avoided making them entirely.
And regarding legendaries – whose main point was the aesthetical factor – we are still missing out them most of the time – as in, everytime we use kits. And we are supposed to use kits a lot, since we’ve been balanced under that assumption…

i have full ascended weapons + legendary on my engi. when ascended weapons first came out i made them on my other characters first because kits didn’t receive the benefit of the additional weapon damage even though engi is my main. the only reason i made the ascended weapons for my engi was because i got tired of farming fractal 48 with only 45 AR relying on guardians to stay alive during maw, and the hope that one day kits will benefit from weapon damage.

you can’t really compare kits to conjured weapons because conjured weapons are a temporary bonus and designed to be extremely strong. but meh i feel conjured weapons should receive the bonus too. eles are in a terrible spot atm. if an ele took the time to make an ascended, beef up his kitten ice bow.

I wish threads about mechanics corrections didn’t so often get somewhat derailed by people who simply cannot pass up any opportunity to stroke their own ego and claim that they’re personally so amazingly uber that they don’t need a level playing field.

here’s the facts:

• Kits were balanced to exotics so that they would have the correct damage.
• Then ascended weapons were introduced.
• With ascended weapons in the game the playing field has changed and now kits are no longer functioning at the correct damage level.

The pertinent question is: have the devs given any indication of when they are going to fix this.

Kits did initially get raised to Ascended level (as did Conjures) upon implementation of the tier, as I’m sure somebody’s pointed out.
Then it was adjusted back to Exotic level in a patch immediately afterward, as it was evidently an unintended change.

I don’t think the devs have stated anything about possibly stepping Kits and Conjures back up to Ascended. Or when they might, if they were to.

In my humble opinion, I think it should be noted that the points of “the class is good, we are still fine without ###” and “this is unfairly biased against us” are separate issues. Everyone who still plays engineer of course agree with the former point, but this thread is about the latter point.

Everything else about every class was the same before ascended, and still the same after ascended, except that engineer kits are now 5% behind. What is the justification for this? We are still fine, yes, but why is anet putting engineers behind and behind with every little change?

It’s the same with the legendary and hobosack issue. Every engineer still playing the class has found ways to make it work, but what is the justification for making engineers the only class that have to deal with this? This is an unnecessary bias. Even a simple style/cosmetic change is all that it takes to fix this, for example making kits a small belt instead of huge backpacks larger than the character.

When the fractal got updated and they added a brand new set of runes … it was a signet rune. Does anet want everyone to quit engineers eventually or what?