Guild Wars 2

Hello everyone,

I play engineer as my main since begining, mostly for wvw and spvp. Even if engi dont bring anything more in gvg/zerg, it does neither draw back anything, neither unbalance the raid, it’s just a perfectly neutral add. But the fact is : he may take the place of a class who would bring something more, and so commander don’t like engi much.

With hindsight, I would like to share a thought : engineer is maybe the most selfish class of the game, I start to believe. Progressivly and wittingly designed like this on purpose. In fact, the only few things we share are just side effects (or inherited from vanilla), definitly never taken on purpose. There is in fact nothing valuable (unique … or just powerfull) we could take in the willing to share it with raid.
At the same time, we can be two times more easily self-sufficient on everything than average, and cumulate many strong effect (ie avoidances) like no one, but just for ourself.

Another way to see it :
Since hot, each class specializations have mainly one purpose between :
Power, Conditions, Heal, Boon, Defense, Class Mechanics
And so, for engineer, respectivly :
Explosives, Firearms, Inventions, Alchemy, Scrapper, Tool

This is also how engineer won a great sustains, because with hot, its defensive spec became its elite spec (while inventions became its heal spec). Leveraged by its selfishness once again.
On the other hand, our other powerful spec, not conceivable to take off, is : Alchemy. And this is our boon spec, which we take for ourself because it substantially increase our sustains, but alsmost only ours.
In gw2, boons are a really important part of pvp, even more in zerg. And this is how our selfish boon spec became so powerful for ourself.
An opposite example : the boon spec of revenant is also its elite, but is very altruistic, he share everything + have uniqueness, and this immediatly gave him an important place in zerg.

So considering this, I now think there is no hope for engineer in gvg/zerg in futur, to be part of the “meta”. Because the class is wittingly designed selfish. To make it more altruist also mean to rebalance, and so surely have to sacrify a lot in scrapper and/or alchemy. This would also change the class so much.

Am I wrong ?

Engineer does provide a moving reflect field and some potential as a ganker. Generally speaking though you are correct in your assessment and would probably be better off looking elsewhere, if you are trying to add value to your zerg/blob/wvw group.

Scrapper gives a lot of access to superspeed which can be a unique and powerful niche in zerg fights. Likewise, Elixirs’ toolbelt skills provide aoe stab, projectile defense, revives, aoe stealth, and more. Any combination of superspeed and Elixirs are very valuable to a zerg.

I agree about our moving reflect field. Even if there is now many reflect skills, defense field is probably the best : for its reliability, its efficiency, its duration/CD (especially when toolbelt is traited). This is our 1 unique/powerful skill (we could pretend to have 2 before slick shoes nerf)

Toss elixirs for stab/stealth/revive is the perfect example of fake shared skill as a random side effect.
The only thing you can be sure about it : you hope to receive the effect yourself (if not rooted/slowed down before). Constraints are highs with no counterparts.
The time to target + to cast + to land is pretty high cumulated, the area of effect is pretty small, the only move you can really predict is your own in such case. It’s not reliable for group usage, it’s mainly for yourself again, and sometime some random ally take profit of it, but I believe they won’t even notice it, because it was just random and others already do similar with more ease/reliability.
Revive is nice, especially for self rez, but compared to banner, it’s slow and the radius is tiny. Defense field is better than Toss elixir U, you may take both to stack anti projectiles effects, but if engineer had a real place in raid, then a good rotation of defense field between engineers would be enough. Currently people don’t care because engineer are not required and appear as randoms pickup.

The usage of superspeed as buff group have the same problems, not reactive and hard to land in the right place, with a lightning field which may recover water as side effect.

Btw, I am not attacking engineer, I played it enough long, and defended the many interrests he provide the same way you are doing. I feel like just repeating the counter args people gave me each time.
But my point is that what optimized raid want is synergies from shares, where 1+1 > 2, but it can’t work with engineer which is a more self-sufficient class, which also means more and more selfish by design.

Those sound like user problems, because I have both a superspeed engi and an elixir engi and I don’t have trouble with any of your listed issues.

What’s nice about Elixir R toolbelt is that when fully traited it revives for 207% on a ~60s cd. Unlike Banner it can punch through poison, though it does suffer from taking time as mentioned. This makes it unique compared to Banner, with different strengths and weaknesses. B’s stab should be used on yourself, but its aoe on a 16s cd. Your positioning is important. U’s projectile defense is a toss up between destruction and reflection, but the defense is the important point. You’re always guaranteed to get a rather long lasting projectile wall with either effect. It might take a bit more effort to get all you can out of Elixirs, but you’re combining the versatility of Guardian and Warrior into one class, shoring up two aspects at once.

As far as superspeed goes, its use is for zerg positioning. It can save your back or frontline by helping them get around certain areas. Sometimes all you need is the few seconds of superspeed and you can get out of harms way without using up your defensive skills. Its effectiveness all depends on your placement/positioning. All things being equal, the zerg with superspeed will outposition the zerg without. Its a comparatively rarer buff that engis have the best source of for aoe application.

Engineers won’t have a monopoly on a niche, but you can have great versatility in shoring up and supplementing multiple roles. Until the next Espec gives more options, the engineer will provide a strong, flexible, supplemental role to the main needs

Replace any engineer stab by a guard stab and there is no more “user” problem, there was just a problem with a spell which have to be targetted+casted+throwed on a 180 tiny radius land, which got replaced by 2 self centered 600/1200 radius instant cast spells. This is what I call a no reliable spell to share. It may be enough reliable for ourself, but it will never be for the raid.

When you try to count on toss B in raid : “Sorry, you didn’t stick enough in this 180 radius tiny circle to all receive my stab, sorry our commander move wasn’t predictible enough and he stopped/turned right before my toss landing, sorry my cast got interrupted”
Reactions : “Please, we want a guard instead of this”

All things we do, others just do it better. We are self-sufficient, we don’t really need them, they also don’t require us, we are not essential, we share nothing reliable+powerful except by accident, and once again, this is by design.

Engineers aren’t designed to replace anyone. They’re (so far) designed to supplement. Implying they bring nothing is demonstrably false. Moral of the story, if you want to be the most helpful you can in a zerg, bring elixirs and/or superspeed until we know what relevant things we get in the next elite spec (if anything)

Doesn’t help that elixirs get screwed by projectile hate which is pretty common in wvw.

There is the super speed niche for your hammertrain that can be filled by engis but then again you could simply take a few aurashout eles with eye of the storm instead who don’t need to rely on ai minions and tiny radius.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Engineers aren’t designed to replace anyone. They’re (so far) designed to supplement. Implying they bring nothing is demonstrably false. Moral of the story, if you want to be the most helpful you can in a zerg, bring elixirs and/or superspeed until we know what relevant things we get in the next elite spec (if anything)

Actually, engineers are designed to be replaced by any GREN. Anyone who understand the dynamics of wvw raids know what matters is to complement each others. Not to supplement, not to do the same thing with less efficiency, it bring nothing more to the raid. A place is just busy by someone who do a bunch of things with less efficiency than others.
To be useful in zerg, I stopped to join queued map as engineer. I removed my blinders, I now want something unique/powerful/shareable with a wvw raid to play again my engineer, instead of trying to convince people everything is just great/perfect/right as it is, which leads to nowhere.

Toss Elixir C (and the boon share chrono goes wild). Every zerg battle starts with condi spam, just stick to the chronos.

Sneak Gyro is severely underrated even in it’s nerfed form (even if immediately killed, it 3s AoE stealth saves so so many). Superspeed is good, AoE Stealth is better.

Toss Elixir U versus Defense Field is a toss up. Wall is more powerful if you have the right positioning/choke points/just in front of enemy backline, Field is overall better at saving your skin.

Scrappers have function gryo which is huge. Elixir R is great, but function gyro is right up there with the GM Final Salvo stab trait since shorter cooldown (20s).

Purge Gyro is severely underrated mainly because Dragonhunters/Mallyx Revs but it is really strong too. Elixir Gun 5/Elite Mortar Kit 5/Healing Turret AoE condi clear and fields are also strong (RIP Medic Gyro).

Most Engineers don’t run Bomb spam heals/combo fields anymore but that is also an option.

IMO, if Backpack Regenerator gave AoE heals or a random AoE buff and Med Kit was fixed to be AoE targeted on Engineer, this whole ‘Engineers don’t have enough’ group support would be fixed.

I think there is always a place for an engineer as a pick role in WvW.

Toolkit pull is still one of the best, shortest CD pulls – a great way to generate downs. It takes practise to spot good targets – out of position back liners without stability, ideally having already used their defensive cooldowns.

Throw elixir X is unique, as you can instantly pull necromancers out of shroud, and even remove all energy from a revenant (I believe this is still the case, haven’t tested recently). A well-timed elixir on enemy front line can blunt their push.

Engineer is also one of the best for stomping, with f-gyro, elixir S invuln and/or stealth.

Once you’ve partnered up with a pick/snipe party and got your essential skills, you can fill in any pieces your party is missing (heal/stab/reflect/stealth) – you won’t do it well, but pick groups lack the sustain of the main front & backline so do what you can there.

I do agree with what everyone else is saying regarding synergy. However, I believe there is a place for engineer – but only once a squad gets all the essentials accounted for.

PS: oh, and please don’t try sniping drivers. That’s a guaranteed way to make the game less fun for everyone. Stick to picking off enemy support.

Tor.1365:

PS: oh, and please don’t try sniping drivers. That’s a guaranteed way to make the game less fun for everyone. Stick to picking off enemy support.

Yup yup yup. I like how someone on my server put it, the goal isn’t to prevent them from killing you, it’s to turn as many of them into bags as possible. And, that’s hard to do if you kill one of them and the rest scatter like kittenroaches.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Scrapper gives a lot of access to superspeed which can be a unique and powerful niche in zerg fights.

Fun fact:

Golems are affected by superspeed and a single gyro scrapper have ~75% uptime of superspeed on 4 of them.

So they bring the most powerfull mobile siege engines in WvW, yet are rarely seen because nobody like them.

Dawdler.8521:

Fun fact:

Golems are affected by superspeed and a single gyro scrapper have ~75% uptime of superspeed on 4 of them.

So they bring the most powerfull mobile siege engines in WvW, yet are rarely seen because nobody like them.

I was going to mention that, but I’ve seen very little golem play for the past while. However, the more golems are used the more useful this becomes .

i find that engi has some problems in wvw . For roaming it has no evasion like other classes ( ranger, thief, mesmer for example ) so if you are outnumbered and your group lose the fight it is really hard to escape . Usually if i roam with mesmer, with some engineer friend , i am able to disenage while people kill him . In zerg it has not great ranged weapon . mortar is really good as support but not for damage ( i really love mortar 2 for example but in a condi setup ) . I played engi since 2012 and for wvw at least, i prefer core engi with firearms, toolkit and alchemy rather than scrapper. Scrapper is strong but it does not fit wvw for me . For roaming i can not chase people with scrapper ( it has bad mobility ) and for zerging it miss a good ranged weapon so i should build soldier and play like a warrior or guardian … you can do this but it is a gamestyle that i don’t like

One scrapper on tag with stealth helps a lot against driver sniping servers. Other than that there are better options than scrapper in a zerg. Scrapper is more fun to play than guard tho imo.

PierPiero.9142:

you can do this but it is a gamestyle that i don’t like

Yes well thats the thing.

In WvW there are two types of roamers – the ones that run specific builds that can flee when things go south and the ones that stand and fight to the bitter end because fleeing is not an option.

Scrappers can build for both tbh but they dont get things for free like many other classes.

Its always your choice what build and class you bring. If you prefer the former I dont blaim you, I will just think you’re a cheezy coward

For zerging, its really just about a scrappers tactical use. Which eliminate it by 99% of commanders because there is no tactics used, its ball up, buff up and push which is pretty much custom tailored to GREN. The ability to stealth a small bomb party and flank an enemy zergball so you can get into their backline is vastly underestimated.

Dawdler.8521:

PierPiero.9142:

you can do this but it is a gamestyle that i don’t like

Yes well thats the thing.

In WvW there are two types of roamers – the ones that run specific builds that can flee when things go south and the ones that stand and fight to the bitter end because fleeing is not an option.

Scrappers can build for both tbh but they dont get things for free like many other classes.

Its always your choice what build and class you bring. If you prefer the former I dont blaim you, I will just think you’re a cheezy coward

For zerging, its really just about a scrappers tactical use. Which eliminate it by 99% of commanders because there is no tactics used, its ball up, buff up and push which is pretty much custom tailored to GREN. The ability to stealth a small bomb party and flank an enemy zergball so you can get into their backline is vastly underestimated.

There is a issue in game called “class balance and its design”, for WvW all we need is aoe range, that is the only tactics WvW has, numbers with boon share and AOE spamable skills.

If this issue is adressed, less cleaves less aoe, maybe some other classes can gain their role in WvW.

Scrappers, thiefs, rangers are in this spot where they arent much needed, due stacking boon share and aoe classes like eles and necros makes the game much easier, and not much tactics is needed.

This needs to be adressed. theres to much spam in this game.

In zerg? Not much use no.
In organised guild setting? Plenty!

Reveal, heals, condi cleansing, pull, CC and the power to stay alive.
sure you won’t be taking the role of a frontline guard/warrior/revenant/druid etc. But in different settings there’s a lot of use for Scrappers. Just not for mindless zerging.
If you’re not into the organised setting, then yes… You’re in a tough spot (but Thief is still a way more selfish class, don’t you worry :P)

Vornollo.5182:

In zerg? Not much use no.
In organised guild setting? Plenty!

I usually don’t like following a zerg and 1111 all the time. The only thing i like of wvw is small scale roaming and for that i think that scrapper misses mobility. Stealth gyro is not that great becouse good players know were to hit and so you can not disengage. It is a strong limit. I see the difference with my mesmer in which many time, when the things go wrong, i can disengage and run away .
The gyro is visible … so it is not that hard to understand where you are.

Scrapper was being used pretty heavily as a disruption role in WvW by fight guilds for several months actually. I know the guild I was in would run anywhere between 2-4 scrappers in a single raid. We would all be in the same party and basically dive into the enemy backline since at the time, it was stupid OP. Since then however, backlines don’t really exist any more with this current boon toilet bowl meta and so their role was removed plus Scrapper has been hit with lots of nerfs and is no longer OP, just kinda balanced. So if you wanted to play scrapper in WvW fights, there was actually a good 4-5 month window where it was amazing. Now? I guess you could still run it, but idk if it would be all that great any more. You need to run with a scrapper buddy though. A lone scrapper in a fight wont do much