Guild Wars 2

I’ll eat my hat if they do.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_X

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plaguelands

Notice anything?

Update: Latest patch (6/20/17) excluded engineers and mesmers. What a surprise!

What balance team?

You mean they ignored an underwater skill? The outrage, surely it’s just to spite engineers!

Jerus.4350:

You mean they ignored an underwater skill? The outrage, surely it’s just to spite engineers!

Nah, just that they implemented a change without remembering any other class that might use said skill.

Sins.4782:

What balance team?

this where did the op get the idea that there was a balance team

I can see the patch notes already…

Engineer

Since Plague was recently changed to Plaguelands on the Necromancer, we wanted to update the underwater skills provided by Elixir X.

• Elixir X: Plague duration reduced from 20s to 15s to be consistent with other transformation durations.

Yeah I agree, what balance team?

If there was a fulltime one, we’d see faster and more consistent balance patches. We get them 2-3 times a year and even then they contain quite few changes for how rarely they happen, so um… nope. It’s probably a thing a few developers do every so often when they have spare time.

Unless your class is guard, warrior, or necro, no they don’t.

You want à fast reply ? Play Revenant, go in pvp and kill some one. There you go , same thing with Necro.

Vagrant.7206:

I’ll eat my hat if they do.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_X

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plaguelands

Notice anything?

Why on earth would they give plaguelands to Elixer X? The entire point of Elixer X is that it’s a transform skill. Plaguelands isn’t a transform.

How would it even work anyways? You have a 50% to go into a transform otherwise drop a PBAoE?

Crinn.7864:

Vagrant.7206:

I’ll eat my hat if they do.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_X

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plaguelands

Notice anything?

Why on earth would they give plaguelands to Elixer X? The entire point of Elixer X is that it’s a transform skill. Plaguelands isn’t a transform.

How would it even work anyways? You have a 50% to go into a transform otherwise drop a PBAoE?

My thoughts exactly. And what does updating or not updating skills have to do with balance anyway?

How would it even work anyways? You have a 50% to go into a transform otherwise drop a PBAoE?

Simple. They remove plague from Elixir X.

My thoughts exactly. And what does updating or not updating skills have to do with balance anyway?

It shows that they aren’t fully cognizant of how the changes they make in one class affects another class.

Vagrant.7206:

It shows that they aren’t fully cognizant of how the changes they make in one class affects another class.

But Elixer X isn’t related to plague at all.

old Plague was a corruption skill that granted a transform.
Elixer X is a elixir skill that grants 1 of two possible transform.
There is a difference between Plague the corruption skill, and Plague the transform.

Transforms aren’t class unique, just as boons and condis aren’t class unique. The plague transform was never changed, Anet just removed the transform from the corruption skill.

Crinn.7864:

Vagrant.7206:

It shows that they aren’t fully cognizant of how the changes they make in one class affects another class.

But Elixer X isn’t related to plague at all.

old Plague was a corruption skill that granted a transform.
Elixer X is a elixir skill that grants 1 of two possible transform.
There is a difference between Plague the corruption skill, and Plague the transform.

Transforms aren’t class unique, just as boons and condis aren’t class unique. The plague transform was never changed, Anet just removed the transform from the corruption skill.

I refer you to the change to Plague:

> Plague (Elite): This skill has been reworked and has been renamed to Plaguelands.

They forgot that Elixir X also uses Plague (Elite). Even the wiki for Elixir X links to the Plaguelands effects. The Plague transform isn’t supposed to even exist any more, but they forgot about Elixir X.

Vagrant.7206:

How would it even work anyways? You have a 50% to go into a transform otherwise drop a PBAoE?

Simple. They remove plague from Elixir X.

My thoughts exactly. And what does updating or not updating skills have to do with balance anyway?

It shows that they aren’t fully cognizant of how the changes they make in one class affects another class.

I don’t think that’s a valid conclusion; there are others. For instance, you haven’t considered that doing so would lead to paralysis by analysis. I mean, if Anet took every change they made, then looked at how it affected ALL the other classes, then made decisions to proceed if something wasn’t ideal, nothing would ever get changed.

There is no reasonable way Anet could proceed with such a scheme for implementing game changes. Yup, there are interactions between classes that are very strong. Well, it’s just the consequence of a Multiclass MMO. You deal with it by playing smart and making choices. You should also be consoled by the idea that next time the pendulum sways in your direction as well; it’s happened lots of times in this game. THAT is where the balance is.

Obtena.7952:

For instance, you haven’t considered that doing so would lead to paralysis by analysis. I mean, if Anet took every change they made, then looked at how it affected ALL the other classes, then made decisions to proceed if something wasn’t ideal, nothing would ever get changed.

When you put it that way, that’s like how Anet does things already.

It was stated a few times on livestreams in the past that they also take into consideration perfect-case scenarios, which include how a change affects and is affected by other classes.

It’s a plus and a minus, but they do it. In the case of Elixir X, Plague, and Plaguelands; it’s more likely to be an oversight – which happens. It’ll either be removed or left alone as a forever-intended effect.

short answer: No

as far as team goes only one dev actually plays engi and unfortunetly even him prefers other classes

They don’t care about engi which is why they ruined the class by making scrapper.

Engi was fun, skillful, and combo reliant
Scrapper is boring, faceroll, and button mash to win.

Also balance team? lolwhut?

Guys, dont worry at least we’re not alone.

They dont care about mesmers either.

In todays patch, any mention of mesmers and engineers was omitted completely.

im frustrated with this support patch, this patch could have been a big opportunity to make med kit a thing, ive been wishing this so badly and the fact they didnt saw that, its just…. kitten

Evidently not….

Anet does not care about engi there is not that many people who play it, so no love for engi today guys.

Wondrouswall.7169:

Obtena.7952:

For instance, you haven’t considered that doing so would lead to paralysis by analysis. I mean, if Anet took every change they made, then looked at how it affected ALL the other classes, then made decisions to proceed if something wasn’t ideal, nothing would ever get changed.

When you put it that way, that’s like how Anet does things already.

It was stated a few times on livestreams in the past that they also take into consideration perfect-case scenarios, which include how a change affects and is affected by other classes.

It’s a plus and a minus, but they do it. In the case of Elixir X, Plague, and Plaguelands; it’s more likely to be an oversight – which happens. It’ll either be removed or left alone as a forever-intended effect.

Not saying it doesn’t happen, but I think it’s important to be aware of how far from significance such things can be. My experience … unless it breaks something, it’s not really that big a deal for the devs.

It certainly doesn’t mean that Anet doesn’t care. That’s silly.

I feel like Engineers are nerf dummies like the one in Lion Arch Aerodrome.

Hey guys, we need to nerf something, can we try on engi first ? And leave it like this after ill be done.

Alek Seven.2374:

I feel like Engineers are nerf dummies like the one in Lion Arch Aerodrome.

Hey guys, we need to nerf something, can we try on engi first ? And leave it like this after ill be done.

Yep, and warriors are their go-to for buffing.

Obtena

For instance, you haven’t considered that doing so would lead to paralysis by analysis. I mean, if Anet took every change they made, then looked at how it affected ALL the other classes, then made decisions to proceed if something wasn’t ideal, nothing would ever get changed.

This isn’t about how one skill affects the entire meta, though. Elixir X used Plague as a literal analogue to the Necromancer’s, and now they are no longer in sync because ANet didn’t recognize that the two skills are intertwined.

Has the thief mobility been nerfed? So warrior, thief and … are their buff dummies.

Vagrant.7206:

Alek Seven.2374:

I feel like Engineers are nerf dummies like the one in Lion Arch Aerodrome.

Hey guys, we need to nerf something, can we try on engi first ? And leave it like this after ill be done.

Yep, and warriors are their go-to for buffing.

Obtena

For instance, you haven’t considered that doing so would lead to paralysis by analysis. I mean, if Anet took every change they made, then looked at how it affected ALL the other classes, then made decisions to proceed if something wasn’t ideal, nothing would ever get changed.

This isn’t about how one skill affects the entire meta, though. Elixir X used Plague as a literal analogue to the Necromancer’s, and now they are no longer in sync because ANet didn’t recognize that the two skills are intertwined.

… and? That’s just want I call “game evolving”. Again, you can’t conclude that Anet doesn’t recognize these skills interact, just because they changed something so they are not anymore.

Obtena.7952:

… and? That’s just want I call “game evolving”. Again, you can’t conclude that Anet doesn’t recognize these skills interact, just because they changed something so they are not anymore.

Generally, when they don’t update something that probably should have been updated too, it’s an oversight. As in, the balance team forgot about Engineer’s Elixir X.

Vagrant.7206:

Obtena.7952:

… and? That’s just want I call “game evolving”. Again, you can’t conclude that Anet doesn’t recognize these skills interact, just because they changed something so they are not anymore.

Generally, when they don’t update something that probably should have been updated too, it’s an oversight. As in, the balance team forgot about Engineer’s Elixir X.

That’s one way to look at it. Here is another … it wasn’t forgotten about; there is something in development.

You assume because you don’t see it, it’s not happening. Not good.

Obtena.7952:

That’s one way to look at it. Here is another … it wasn’t forgotten about; there is something in development.

You assume because you don’t see it, it’s not happening. Not good.

If you can’t recognize ANet’s pattern of nerfing engineer and then promptly ignoring it, then I’m not sure what to tell you. Our traits (including scrapper) are all sorts of borked, most of our core weapons are very lackluster, our gameplay is still clunky, and we’ve had these complaints for several years now. At some point, you have to recognize this pattern.

If they were going to change Elixir X, I think they would’ve made a note of it somewhere, or at least indicated a fix coming for it. Granted, it’s not a skill I care much about (I’d prefer they fix rifle), but the silence is deafening.

Oh, comon. You have to be really paranoid, or delusional, if you think any game company is vindictive enough to punish that one group of players that plays that one particular class. Grow up. You’re not a martyr for playing an engineer, and you’re never going to be.

I’ve recently come back to the game, and I’ve been having a blast on my engineer. I’ve caught up on all the Heart of Thorns and story content, which was challenging (in a fun way), but never very hard. I never felt like I was playing a class that was “broken”. I’ve worked out a fun build, pretty easily mind you, and I see many other ways to play as well.

Perhaps the class isn’t for you. Perhaps you need a more positive attitude.

asuitandty.8526:

Oh, comon. You have to be really paranoid, or delusional, if you think any game company is vindictive enough to punish that one group of players that plays that one particular class. Grow up. You’re not a martyr for playing an engineer, and you’re never going to be.

Don’t twist my words.

I never said they were being vindictive or punishing us. I said they just don’t care about the class. It’s the class full of junk ideas (scrapper is an appropriate name) that were never brought to fruition.

“Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.”

I’ve recently come back to the game, and I’ve been having a blast on my engineer. I’ve caught up on all the Heart of Thorns and story content, which was challenging (in a fun way), but never very hard. I never felt like I was playing a class that was “broken”. I’ve worked out a fun build, pretty easily mind you, and I see many other ways to play as well.

I’m glad you had fun. The majority of PvE (even HoT) can be reasonably played with most classes and most builds provided you aren’t braindead. Generally when people complain about balance, they’re not talking open-world PvE, but PvP, WvW, and high-end PvE (Raids/Fractals) instead.

Perhaps the class isn’t for you. Perhaps you need a more positive attitude.

Perhaps you shouldn’t tell me how to live my life.

Vagrant.7206:

Obtena.7952:

That’s one way to look at it. Here is another … it wasn’t forgotten about; there is something in development.

You assume because you don’t see it, it’s not happening. Not good.

If you can’t recognize ANet’s pattern of nerfing engineer and then promptly ignoring it, then I’m not sure what to tell you.

You don’t need to tell me anything if this thread is the kind of message you want people to take from what you are saying.

You took the worst of many possible outcomes, then assumed it was THE reason for what you observed without considering more simple and logical ones. Let me wonder why someone would do that … certainly not to have open and fair discussion.

The fact is that anyone thinking that a dev team is purposefully ruining a particular class has an axe to grind.

Vagrant.7206:

If they were going to change Elixir X, I think they would’ve made a note of it somewhere, or at least indicated a fix coming for it. Granted, it’s not a skill I care much about (I’d prefer they fix rifle), but the silence is deafening.

You assume too much … though that’s par for the course considering most of your posts in this thread. The fact is that you don’t know how long it takes to change something or what is being worked on.

We all get your play here; it’s the typical goading we see from people that really don’t have much more to say other than they aren’t happy. You’re thread might have been better if the original complain held more water.

Obtena.7952:

You don’t need to tell me anything if this thread is the kind of message you want people to take from what you are saying.

You took the worst of many possible outcomes, then assumed it was THE reason for what you observed without considering more simple and logical ones. Let me wonder why someone would do that … certainly not to have open and fair discussion.

The fact is that anyone thinking that a dev team is purposefully ruining a particular class has an axe to grind.

Again, don’t twist my words. I think they just don’t care about the class as long as the overall meta seems balanced. If you can’t notice the pattern, you’re missing the larger picture:

• Engineer gets a bit too powerful (IE turrets, gyro dazes)
• Engineer gets nerfed excessively hard (Turrets a joke, Traits in scrapper all borked)
• ANet says job well done and leaves it alone.

This is a pattern. Any time the class seems to be the slightest bit overpowered, ANet hits us hard with the nerf hammer and then disappears. They don’t bother tempering the nerf with fixes to our broken traits (scrapper dazes come to mind) or anything else.

The longstanding issues with the class (turrets, weapons, gadgets, traits, etc) have been around for an unusually long period of time compared to say… the warrior, which they spend an inordinate amount of time balancing and correcting issues.

Again, I’m not saying this is intentional on their part. It’s apathy towards our class.

You assume too much … though that’s par for the course considering most of your posts in this thread. The fact is that you don’t know how long it takes to change something or what is being worked on.

You’re also assuming what is being worked on. Pot, kettle. I just happen to have evidence of past behavior.

And I’ve seen how fast they can change something when they dedicate effort to it. I’ve been around a while.

We all get your play here; it’s the typical goading we see from people that really don’t have much more to say other than they aren’t happy.

Do you have something meaningful to say, or would you like to conjecture more about me?

You’re thread might have been better if the original complain held more water.

My complaint was more evidence of the apathy. I’m not sure why people aren’t perceiving that.

Vagrant.7206:

My complaint was more evidence of the apathy. I’m not sure why people aren’t perceiving that.

Because it’s easier to attack a person’s character than disprove the actual evidence presented.

Vagrant.7206:

Obtena.7952:

You don’t need to tell me anything if this thread is the kind of message you want people to take from what you are saying.

You took the worst of many possible outcomes, then assumed it was THE reason for what you observed without considering more simple and logical ones. Let me wonder why someone would do that … certainly not to have open and fair discussion.

The fact is that anyone thinking that a dev team is purposefully ruining a particular class has an axe to grind.

Again, don’t twist my words. I think they just don’t care about the class as long as the overall meta seems balanced.

Considering that meta isn’t Anet’s conception and they clearly don’t balance classes around it, I think that’s quite ridiculous claim to make. That might be worth saying if you weren’t just here to make dissension.

Apathy isn’t what Anet is showing here. Engi does get changes to the class, just like any other over the course of the life of this game. Just because you don’t like them or the timelines associated with them do not indicate Anet does not care about Engi. That’s completely nonsense if you consider that the very people you accuse of sabotaging the classes in the game depend on the game doing well so they can do things like … live with a roof over their heads, not eat from the garbage can, put clothes on their back.

Like I said, you took the WORST case, least logical possibility, latched onto it like it was the only truth that exists and dismissed any other possible, more reasonable and sensible explanation … just because you don’t like the direction the class has taken or how it’s being handled. Why should anyone listen to that kind of dribble? What’s better is that you think I don’t have meaningful to say … that’s ripe.

Apathy isn’t what Anet is showing here. Engi does get changes to the class, just like any other over the course of the life of this game.

I’m glad you mentioned over the course of the game, because we were left out of this latest bit of balancing. It’s almost like they didn’t bother this time ’round.

• Last time we were included in a balance patch, they “fixed” a longstanding issue with turrets. Whether that “fix” was better is questionable, and it wasn’t a major priority on any engineer’s books.
• Before that, we have to go pretty much all the way back to November or December where we saw some slight buffs to condi damage, but not much affecting our rotations.
• I don’t even remember much before that because it mostly seems so minor and trivial, despite longstanding issues with our weapons, traits, and utility skills.
• Pretty sure that was a buff to physical damage of fire bombs and blunderbuss/jump shot in there (which aren’t major priorities either).
• That covers an entire year of engineer “balancing.” Some slight number tweaking.

My point in all this is that either we are a problem they keep putting off for no apparent reason, or they just don’t care. Either way, it has the same effect and leaves a pretty sour taste in my mouth.

Like I said, you took the WORST case, least logical possibility, latched onto it like it was the only truth that exists and dismissed any other possible, more reasonable and sensible explanation

So… out of my whole post where I indicate that they simply forgot about us (not maliciously) when they changed Plaguelands, and they have ignored us (again, I don’t think maliciously), you think I’m following the worst case, least logical possibility?

How does that make sense? I’m suggesting the most plausible case is that they don’t care. I even have evidence. Where’s yours?

Why should anyone listen to that kind of dribble? What’s better is that you think I don’t have meaningful to say … that’s ripe.

First of all… Drivel. If you’re going to insult my argument, at least get it right.

Second of all, you either aren’t reading my posts properly, or you’re just hearing what you want to hear:

• I think they’re forgetting about engineers until we became a nuisance in some significant way (typically via OP-ness).
• They have rebalanced other classes’ less used weapons and skills (warrior, most commonly), yet fail to rebalance many of the longstanding issues we have (for well over a year or two now)
• I don’t perceive this as malice. I perceive it as apathy.

Vagrant.7206:

Apathy isn’t what Anet is showing here. Engi does get changes to the class, just like any other over the course of the life of this game.

I’m glad you mentioned over the course of the game, because we were left out of this latest bit of balancing. It’s almost like they didn’t bother this time ’round.

I’m glad you point that out too, because not getting changes, particularly if they aren’t ready for a patch release ONCE in the history of the game, is a really bad example of Anet’s apathy.

Vagrant.7206:

My point in all this is that either we are a problem they keep putting off for no apparent reason, or they just don’t care. Either way, it has the same effect and leaves a pretty sour taste in my mouth.

I get your point. I’m saying it doesn’t really make much sense if you look at the history of the game. Engi’s have got lots of changes over the last 5 years, so to look at a very short period of time in that, and conclude Anet doesn’t care, or aren’t competent is a disingenuous statement to make. Again, we get it. You don’t like the current state of Engi. That shouldn’t lead any reasonable person to conclude that Anet doesn’t care about the class. That’s ridiculous … just as ridiculous if I were to say I really like how Engi works as a class and that Anet cares the most about it.

If you want to make some construction conclusions, I’m all for it but if your conclusion is that Anet doesn’t care … then what’s even the point of making a thread they won’t read? There isn’t any value in that.

Obtena.7952:

I’m glad you point that out too, because not getting changes, particularly if they aren’t ready for a patch release ONCE in the history of the game, is a really bad example of Anet’s apathy.

Are you going to play ignorant of the larger context? I pointed out an entire year’s-worth of relatively meaningless “balance” and your takeaway is that there’s only been one problematic balance patch?

I get your point. I’m saying it doesn’t really make much sense if you look at the history of the game. Engi’s have got lots of changes over the last 5 years, so to look at a very short period of time in that, and conclude Anet doesn’t care, or aren’t competent is a disingenuous statement to make.

1 year is not a short time. 2 years is not a short time. This last year alone I can’t remember any meaningful changes to our profession. In 2 years, I can remember any fixes to engineer rifle, which we’ve complained about for a very long time.

This isn’t “current doldrums.” This is a longstanding issue. Don’t trivialize it just because some of us are becoming more vocal.

If you want to make some construction conclusions, I’m all for it but if your conclusion is that Anet doesn’t care … then what’s even the point of making a thread they won’t read? There isn’t any value in that.

1. I try pretty frequently to post in places where ArenaNet will see, both on these forums and in Reddit. Most of my posts die on Reddit, and get moved to the engineer subforums here, which is a graveyard for posts.
2. I concluded that my lone voice wasn’t loud enough. So I post here to get more people to pipe up. Maybe if more people can point out that there’s a problem (and stop kissing Anet’s tushy), then we can get noticed and something can be done.

Obtena.7952:

I get your point. I’m saying it doesn’t really make much sense if you look at the history of the game. Engi’s have got lots of changes over the last 5 years, so to look at a very short period of time in that, and conclude Anet doesn’t care, or aren’t competent is a disingenuous statement to make.

To be fair, a lot can happen over the course of 5 years. Staff, direction, and priorities change. Anet might not be (completely) incompetent or disregarding to balance, but there is a possibility it’s just not a high priority as of late.

If they had gotten rid of lich form instead of plague, I would have been happy of the change and the op wouldn’t even have made this thread. But well… Anet’s logic is unfathomable.

Vagrant.7206:

Obtena.7952:

I’m glad you point that out too, because not getting changes, particularly if they aren’t ready for a patch release ONCE in the history of the game, is a really bad example of Anet’s apathy.

Are you going to play ignorant of the larger context? I pointed out an entire year’s-worth of relatively meaningless “balance” and your takeaway is that there’s only been one problematic balance patch?

I get your point. I’m saying it doesn’t really make much sense if you look at the history of the game. Engi’s have got lots of changes over the last 5 years, so to look at a very short period of time in that, and conclude Anet doesn’t care, or aren’t competent is a disingenuous statement to make.

1 year is not a short time. 2 years is not a short time. This last year alone I can’t remember any meaningful changes to our profession. In 2 years, I can remember any fixes to engineer rifle, which we’ve complained about for a very long time.

This isn’t “current doldrums.” This is a longstanding issue. Don’t trivialize it just because some of us are becoming more vocal.

If you want to make some construction conclusions, I’m all for it but if your conclusion is that Anet doesn’t care … then what’s even the point of making a thread they won’t read? There isn’t any value in that.

1. I try pretty frequently to post in places where ArenaNet will see, both on these forums and in Reddit. Most of my posts die on Reddit, and get moved to the engineer subforums here, which is a graveyard for posts.
2. I concluded that my lone voice wasn’t loud enough. So I post here to get more people to pipe up. Maybe if more people can point out that there’s a problem (and stop kissing Anet’s tushy), then we can get noticed and something can be done.

Yet to claim that Anet hasn’t paid attention to Engi for 1-2 years, just because they don’t do things you want them to isn’t being honest. I can’t stress this enough … there is nothing more nonsensical than to assume there is purposeful neglect. You better have a much stronger case for that kind of claim other than “don’t fix things we want”. That’s certainly not enough. If you can’t rush to the worst conclusion you can think of on such flimsy observations that can be attributed to more realistic, non-nefarious reasons, there isn’t much reason to take you seriously, at all. There is zero value to that non-constructive criticism, other than concluding you’re just another typical angry player ranting on the forum.

Anyways, you’ve convinced yourself Anet doesn’t care because you observe certain things. The core problem with that is it’s completely irrelevant; there is a wide range of satisfaction with players. As I’ve already said, the solution in place for class changes is actually optimized based on business constraints. Anet already knows that a fraction of players feel negatively about balance, no matter what they do. How do you make your opinion different and meaningful? By accusing them of apathy? Let us know how that works for you.

Obtena.7952:

Yet to claim that Anet hasn’t paid attention to Engi for 1-2 years, just because they don’t do things you want them to isn’t being honest. I can’t stress this enough … there is nothing more nonsensical than to assume there is purposeful neglect. You better have a much stronger case for that kind of claim other than “don’t fix things we want”. That’s certainly not enough.

It’s not just “not fixing the things I want.” Take a look at the last year’s worth of balance patches (for engineers). Most of the changes are slight number adjustments. The most “significant” (in terms of programming effort) change was the turret one, which barely affected people’s builds.

I’m not saying changing some numbers doesn’t require thought or effort. But most of the numbers they changed have been relatively minor (in terms of overall effect). Basically, they’ve held us in place for the last year, despite many long-standing problems.

If you can’t rush to the worst conclusion you can think of on such flimsy observations that can be attributed to more realistic, non-nefarious reasons, there isn’t much reason to take you seriously, at all. There is zero value to that non-constructive criticism, other than concluding you’re just another typical angry player ranting on the forum.

1. Please stop attacking my person. It’s a really tired trope.
2. Again, I’m not rushing to the worst conclusion. You keep saying that, but the worst conclusion is assuming malicious intent. I’m not assuming that.
3. I’m not saying any one piece of evidence alone is enough. But there is a clear picture when you take it all into account. Thus, context matters.

Anyways, you’ve convinced yourself Anet doesn’t care because you observe certain things. The core problem with that is it’s completely irrelevant; there is a wide range of satisfaction with players. As I’ve already said, the solution in place for class changes is actually optimized based on business constraints. Anet already knows that a fraction of players feel negatively about balance, no matter what they do. How do you make your opinion different and meaningful? By accusing them of apathy? Let us know how that works for you.

1. Wait, you’re telling me you’ve polled a significant number of engineer mains? And the majority is satisfied? I’d love to see your data! Please, reference me.
2. Do you have access to their financials, their employee data, and team structure? If you do… why aren’t you an ArenaNet employee? If you don’t… why conjecture about their internal workings? That’s a weak argument to use.
3. If you’re going to make broad, sweeping statements such as these, back it up with evidence.

I’d like to see à poll for which class is your main, thanks to the one who’ll make it.

They did not adjusted “minors” numbers only,they also increased the cooldwon of some skill,they removed a leap finisher and left it bugged cause sometimes it makes 2 leap combo,sometimes 1 leap combo , and… the jewel,the piece of cake , the art of…remove the main source of dazes from the main scrapper mechanic(gyros) without even care of adjust to compensate the trait to? it related: impact servant.

We got general damage reduction , specifically on our main damage skills related to hammer , we got minor tweaks to our healing , we were privated of a function that was supposed to heavily define our class with the removal of CCs from gyros,and we NEVER saw anything,a single thing in that 2 years to make up form that negations/nerfs.

Look at the scrapper role in spvp….Just a stall dummie.
Look at the scrapper role in wvw, the nothingness…The first competent player you meet is a death sentence.
I mean,it’s fine if you roam killing newbys that just joined the game and you have fun that way.

I still read of peoples say " anet is not fixing things cause they have plans" , well guys , if to see that plans I have to wait 2 years , that big plans are pathetic from the start.
That is not like they don’t care of engineer , this is lack of manpower probably , and for sure mixed with a big dose of incompetence.
Yeah , I’m going too far by saying this probably,but how can I remotely think to don’t say that when we play a class that is basically just the shadow of a tank and nothing else from 2 years and that uses the same identical build on the vast majority of the players?

Every scrapper video on YouTube,every scrapper i meet in competitive scenarios , every one is running hammer+ elixir B ,elixir gun , bulwark gyro,stealth gyro.
There is no other build from 2 years.Do you understand that?
Man you are running from 2 years a melee power build coupled with the same 4 utility from 2 years , and the only kit compatible with that power oriented build is an Elixir gun ….Not for the damage but for the utility.

If you guys still have the will and the patience to justify that balance behaviour , I admire you.

To the peoples saying before HoT it was the same in regard of stagnant meta and particularly in reference to the engineer slow development,I must agree we have always suffered from slow development as class compared to all the others,but i never saw our class trapped in the same build for 2 years without having the chance to change a single utility and suddenly lose half of the potential we have….Oh…tankiness potential,cause aside from that we are left with Condi cancer.

But no….May be it’s me who cannot immagine the supersecret Anet plans about engineer’s future updates , that are supposed to fix every half done work on our class since the alpha stage of that game…That is why we are in that situation…Sure.

I didn’t want to offend anyone that have different ideas from me,so don’t take anything i said as a personal attack…Better clarify that point.

I’ve lost count on how many times I’ve seen Obtena being called out for projecting and deflecting.

OP is right though, engineer needs more lurv. Obtena is wrong.

I think the class is fixable as well, provided that the ability to do so fits within the constraints of the business model. So far, no game I’m familiar with has demonstrated these constraints don’t have a serious impact on the devs ability to make these changes; they are bound by limited resources just like any other business. It appears to me you simply dismiss these a frivolous causes, simply because you think being angry is a compelling argument; I assure you neither is true. If i was wrong, then all the problems listed by angry players would have been dealt with years ago. Obviously that’s not the case. It’s a very logical argument. Being angry and dismissive doesn’t make it less so.

Not sure I can repeat myself enough here; I don’t disagree there are things wrong, but I do disagree with your conclusion that it’s due to neglect or lack of care. There are numerous and more likely reasons. I guess just because I don’t crap all over people makes me a fatalist, then so be it. Rather that than appear unknowledgeable, bitter and unreasonable by assuming some of the least likely, worst cases.

Rather that than appear unknowledgeable, bitter and unreasonable by assuming some of the least likely, worst cases.

You keep repeating this like it will stick or something.

Ramoth.9064:

I’ve lost count on how many times I’ve seen Obtena being called out for projecting and deflecting.

Oh, got it.

So, is a pessimistic view over repeated patterns agains pure wishfull thinking. Guess which one of those is most often realistic.

Actually Obtena they do balance patches all the time they need to give Engineers the love they require to become a well balanced class. Here we are 5 years later and that still hasn’t happened even with balance patches and with an expansion. That means something is not right over there in the offices.