Guild Wars 2

Carighan.6758:

Aberrant.6749:

They can always add in the class sort of flavor while the skill itself still doing the desired effect. Say… an eng uses something like rocket boots to blast himself away from a stomp. This would be similar to the other classes move away skills while still being very eng like.

Hrm, I would prefer something like a “Bomb Kit” for downed then, which gives me 3 new skills. One creates a blinding cloud, one blows people away, one blows myself away while doing some damage.

Well… that was just an example of how whatever sort of effect they wanted the skills to have they could put an engineer theme onto it very easily. The horrid downed state engineers have is in no way acceptable just because it needs to feel engineer like.

ProxyDamage.9826:

It’s an interrupt… People who complain about it being a pull are completely clueless. It’s a single target interrupt. It’ll stop a single target’s stomp attempt if they’re not running stability. Same as a Necro’s fear or Warrior’s hammer toss. The fact that it pulls them to you is of very little relevance. If they had stability (or anything stronger) you’re dead. If nobody came to your help by then, you’re dead. If anything it buys you 1 less second extra, at most. Hardly a gigantic deal, especially given that you also have a very strong AoE knock back, albeit on a long cooldown so you rarely get to use it.

It does matter. Skills that move others away give you more time to ready your 3 or heal a little bit. Skills that pull them closer give you less time. A necro fear gives them longer than just 1 more second… they are interrupted, pushed away, and then have to run back to you to stomp. There is also the issue of the eng interrupt being easily blocked.

Not saying that necro downed is amazing or anything… but it’s still far better than what the eng gets in multiple ways.

Downed State equality has been a problem since launch. The simple fact is toe for toe if you fight someone on equal footing, and you both get downed simultaneously, who will win. Engineer will always lose…always. Now, even in teamwork environments, allies have to play beat the stomp with a rez since the Engi felt the overwhelming masochistic urge to distribute a gap closer to his aggressor.

…meanwhile your Elementalist team mate who went down right next to you mist forms into the safety of the keep leaving you out in enemy fire like you’re going to magically quit being flammable…

Elentalist gets invulnerability, Mesmer gets teleport and stealth, Necro gets fear, Rangers get a stun AND a heal, Thieves get stealth AND teleport, Warriors get a knockdown and they can get back up (and can stay up with a kill 100% if traited), and Guardians get an AoE knockback that casts INSTANTLY and they get a symbol that heals (something that can be highly traited for btw).

Engineer gets a pull to politely provide a gap closer to enemies that may not have brought one, and a AoE knockback that is ready to activate right about the same time you get that revive at waypoint pop-up.

Carighan.6758:

snip

It stops a stomp from landing, just like our 2. However, it isnt affacted by stability, aegis, blind, los. Stealth, yes… aslong as ALL nearby targets are in stealth. If so much as an ambient critter is nearby you can still use it.

You teleport randomly, might not get to a better spot or you might. Thats an infinitely greater chance of getting a better deal then 5 out of 8 professions who doesnt move at all.

And even if the game points out the real one? WHO CARES!? You already avoided the stomp. This is the point of that ability. If anyone else does an interupt people go straigth for them again aswell.
Or do you think its a good idea that it was truely impossible to tell the difference? So ontop of a kitten near perfect stomp avoider, after that you have to play the guessing game aswell?

And dont you even dare complain about damage. Their 1 still hits hard, and they get their Phantasmal Truck on 3 which hits for obsceen damage. All the while any phantasm that was still up persists and still kicks your kitten .

Downed State is all about trying to stay alive as long as possible, giving your allies a chance to rez you or ralying on a kill.
Some professions, including the Mesmer, are just better at it. Their chances of surviving a downed state is just flat out greater then most professions.

That is all downed state is, simple really. Its why it doesnt really matter in PvE where mobs dont do finishers. But it does matter in PvP and WvW, it mattered the moment they descided to make it an important part of the combat system. So such big inbalances are just inexcuseable.

All downed skills are there to just delay stomps.

Viewing these skills as anything other than that is stupid, because you will rarely get back up from downed without the aid of a friendly.

Also, I’d argue Mesmers have the worst downed ability, since you can stomp most of them by just canceling your stomp animation early to scare em into using their cloak, then starting your stomp before they disappear, your stomp animation will finish just as they decloak.

Kreedz.8127:

All downed skills are there to just delay stomps.

Viewing these skills as anything other than that is stupid, because you will rarely get back up from downed without the aid of a friendly.

Also, I’d argue Mesmers have the worst downed ability, since you can stomp most of them by just canceling your stomp animation early to scare em into using their cloak, then starting your stomp before they disappear, your stomp animation will finish just as they decloak.

It’s not THAT easy to do it on the mesmer. Any degree of latency can ruin your attempt to do that, and even if you do it successfully, they can still teleport far enough away so that your stomp won’t reach them, and you have to restomp. Even still, that is a delay that is being introduced into the stomp, so even if they do pull that trick on you, it still partially accomplishes its goal. It can also work on opponents with stability, and can avoid a stealth stomp so long as another target is nearby. An engineer has absolutely no way to counter either stability stomps or stealth stomps.

I’ve sometimes used the engineer #2 to save someone else from getting stomped instead of saving myself from getting stomped. Seems more useful to use it like that sometimes, but it can be a bit silly. There’s been one instance where I pulled someone off a ledge with it and they died, which caused me to rally, but that was a rare occurrence.

I’d say warriors and necros have it pretty much as bad… warriors because they often won’t get to use their #3 skill, and they often still die anyways, although it also means a warrior wins any downed vs. downed fight (unless a thief can stealth for super long). The necro #3 skill is also next to useless aside from some minor annoyance, and their fear comes out so freakishly slow, you almost have to start it just after the opponent starts the stomp animation.

In all honsty the 2 downskill is probably tied for worst with the warriors. When used to interupt a stomp they are about as effective as eachother. While the engineer one does make things slightly easier on a far away enemy theres not much point to use it on a far away enemy anyway (much like the warrior one)

Now I admit the warrior vengence is much better than boobytrap 9 times outa 10 but then agian unless your foe is asleep neither the engineer or the warrior will ever get a chance to use their 3 ability due to the CD on it being longer than 2 stomp attempts + each classes single CC (down 2).

Our downed skills are rubbish:

• #2 is an unreliable single target interrupt that draws enemies closer.
• If we survive long enough to use #3 it does hit reasonably hard, but at the cost of potentially drawing more agro.

We can only interrupt 1 enemy in the time it takes to stomp us. We can’t lose agro. We can’t avoid AoE. We can’t move to safety. Our downed skills are pathetic for anything more than 1v1 and even there other classes will beat us in a downed v downed match.

When downed, other classes can do one or more of the following in the time it takes to stomp them:

• Reliably interrupt at least one enemy
• Interrupt/avoid stomps from multiple enemies
• Lose/escape agro
• Avoid AoE
• Move to safety
• Heal
  And, they will beat us if we are downed as well.

Yes, our downed skills are abysmal.

Kreedz.8127:

Also, I’d argue Mesmers have the worst downed ability, since you can stomp most of them by just canceling your stomp animation early to scare em into using their cloak, then starting your stomp before they disappear, your stomp animation will finish just as they decloak.

That’s how people stomp me on the Mesmer, at least. I know very few people who finish the first stomp – or even try to – so it becomes a bit of a mind game because if I don’t use Deception, I’d avoid the first stomp in the end. But if they do go through, I’m dead and should have used it. Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

Anyhow, that’s just sPvP. In WvW it’s rare that anyone tries to stomp, in smaller encounters you’re being attacked by overwhelming numbers because they play highwaymen, they just set a handful of pets or phantasms on you for you to die from and take a bit of distance with the rest of the fight. In larger encounters you drop a ton of AEs near where players are downed.
Either way, Downed is a very short-lived state in which you try to Rally because few will try to stomp you + you can’t get up via bandage. If you’re lucky, you can withdraw to your team (Thief / Elementalist) and get picked up there, ofc.

This is about Engineer number 2 downstate not mesmers.

Shadowtech.5071:

This is about Engineer number 2 downstate not mesmers.

Performance of a skill depends on its relation to its peers.

If every other class had an even worst nr2 then Engineer (if you can imagine) we wouldnt even have these threads.
So be prepared to deal with arguments based on comparison.

Actually

Warrior down #2 is the worst in the game

Warrior #2 is a single target 1 second cast time knockback

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hammer_Toss

I rate warrior down just as bad as engineer. I am still debating because engineers have a better chance of trolling stompers than warriors.

I’m able to rally myself in PvE by myself on most occasions even with the downed skills we have. Admittedly, #2 is pretty awful; it just kind of pulls your enemy closer to you so that they can kill you faster, but at least it also interrupts them I suppose. I think that your best strategy is to make sure you are fighting at a reasonable distance beforehand, so that it takes them longer to get to you when you are hitting them with your…incredibly powerful #1 skill, use #2 as soon as they get to you so that they fall (and are interrupted) and hopefully you will be able to use #3 by this point and do sufficient damage (maybe you’ll need to #1 them again) to kill them.

Also, and I am not sure about how well this works, but having a turret laid down might disperse the aggro, or at least do more damage.

illictic.6183:

I’m able to rally myself in PvE by myself on most occasions even with the downed skills we have. Admittedly, #2 is pretty awful; it just kind of pulls your enemy closer to you so that they can kill you faster, but at least it also interrupts them I suppose. I think that your best strategy is to make sure you are fighting at a reasonable distance beforehand, so that it takes them longer to get to you when you are hitting them with your…incredibly powerful #1 skill, use #2 as soon as they get to you so that they fall (and are interrupted) and hopefully you will be able to use #3 by this point and do sufficient damage (maybe you’ll need to #1 them again) to kill them.

Also, and I am not sure about how well this works, but having a turret laid down might disperse the aggro, or at least do more damage.

pve is so much more different than pvp or wvwvw

Thief have one of the worse down states in p v e

In term of pvp, i nominate warrior #2 <- just a reduction of cast time will make this skill not the worse #2 downstate

loseridoit.2756:

Actually

Warrior down #2 is the worst in the game

Warrior #2 is a single target 1 second cast time knockback

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hammer_Toss

I rate warrior down just as bad as engineer. I am still debating because engineers have a better chance of trolling stompers than warriors.

Subjective i suppose.

Longer cast-time for a longer CC that doesnt actually pull someone to you aswell. (which is pretty much always a bad thing unless by some miracle you have Boobytrap ready)

But it is certainly in the same boat as Engineer’s 2 and suffers from stability, blind, aegis, stealth, multiple targets, los. All that nonsense, no real doubt its aweful aswell.

loseridoit.2756:

Actually

Warrior down #2 is the worst in the game

Warrior #2 is a single target 1 second cast time knockback

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hammer_Toss

I rate warrior down just as bad as engineer. I am still debating because engineers have a better chance of trolling stompers than warriors.

I’m sure there is at least 1/2 or 1 second cast time for the engi too. It’s not in the description, but the animation before the skill is so long… Try it !
I would definitly say 1 s of cast time.

And for those who say that we are supposed to use #2 then #3. Well, try some real pvp : if the ennemy want to stomp you directly after you fall, you can’t cast #3 even if you interrupt his first attempt.
We need something like 5 sec less on reloading time to cast #3

Markus.9084:

loseridoit.2756:

Actually

Warrior down #2 is the worst in the game

Warrior #2 is a single target 1 second cast time knockback

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hammer_Toss

I rate warrior down just as bad as engineer. I am still debating because engineers have a better chance of trolling stompers than warriors.

I’m sure there is at least 1/2 or 1 second cast time for the engi too. It’s not in the description, but the animation before the skill is so long… Try it !
I would definitly say 1 s of cast time.

And for those who say that we are supposed to use #2 then #3. Well, try some real pvp : if the ennemy want to stomp you directly after you fall, you can’t cast #3 even if you interrupt his first attempt.
We need something like 5 sec less on reloading time to cast #3

At least the warrior’s #2 doesn’t pull them closer to you… and their #3 is pretty kitten awesome. Not saying they have a good #2… but it’s better than eng’s… as is their #3. Eng still has the worst downed state.

It’s 3 skills. For kitten’s sake… it shouldn’t take a year to balance them.

If you guys are using #2 to pull your enemies for no reason, then you’re doing it wrong. If they’re finishing you off from a distance, don’t pull them unless your bomb is ready, or if you’re trying to peel for a teammate. Engineer downed state is not that bad, at the very least you have 2 interrupts, and by the time they get up from the bomb, you’ll have your #2 ready again. I personally think Necro has it the worst because their #3 is only a poison field.

Copenhagen.7015:

If you guys are using #2 to pull your enemies for no reason, then you’re doing it wrong. If they’re finishing you off from a distance, don’t pull them unless your bomb is ready, or if you’re trying to peel for a teammate. Engineer downed state is not that bad, at the very least you have 2 interrupts, and by the time they get up from the bomb, you’ll have your #2 ready again. I personally think Necro has it the worst because their #3 is only a poison field.

And isnt that just an example of where the Warrior would be better? A ranged knockdown would be better to stop enemy ranged harrass, rather then pulling them close and they stomp you.

But again, both of these skills are awefull.