The great god Lagki demands sacrifice.
(edited by Vagrant.7206)
Elixir S -- The only invuln skill that sucks
If you’re talking about utility skills then naaa. Eles mistform can’t use skills while in it.
Besides we got tons of blocks.
As a matter of fact I’d like to see other invuln skills work as our elixir s rather than the other way around.
The problem with elixir s is it makes you slow.
No invuln should allow other skills to be used.
“Only problem with the Engineer is
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks
If you’re talking about utility skills then naaa. Eles mistform can’t use skills while in it.
On the other hand ele gets a 66% movement speed increase with mistform so can actually get away or at least open a gap to some extent some of the time and can still switch attunement in mistform to proc healing ripple, regen, soothing mist, protection etc.
Engy used to have access to their f1-f4 skills in elixir S also, but that went, and elixir S never got updated to cope with that change (typical Anet), which turned it into the worst invurn in the game, because so often it does nothing but delay the inevitable, because you can’t escape/open a gap much of the time or recover a little whilst invurn like you can with mistform and you can’t counter pressure either in the way you can with obsidian flesh, endure pain (yes I know that is only direct damage), etc.
(edited by zinkz.7045)
If you’re talking about utility skills then naaa. Eles mistform can’t use skills while in it.
Besides we got tons of blocks.As a matter of fact I’d like to see other invuln skills work as our elixir s rather than the other way around.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Obsidian_Flesh
Eles have two invuln skills available to them. Obsidian flesh lets them keep doing their thing, and it’s not even a utility either.
Engy used to have access to their f1-f4 skills in elixir S also, but that went, and elixir S never got updated to cope with that change (typical Anet), which turned it into the worst invurn in the game, because so often it does nothing but delay the inevitable, because you can’t escape/open a gap much of the time or recover a little whilst invurn like you can with mistform and you can’t counter pressure either in the way obsidian flesh, or endure pain (yes I know that is only direct damage) do.
We also used to be able to use our utility skills in elixir s, which was wonky with kits, but not unreasonable. I feel like the toolbelt skills would be a good compromise — if you have elixir s, you can also throw elixir s if it’s not on cooldown to get the hell away.
The other thing is that endure pain is basically a temp invuln — if you throw in berserker stance, it’s one of the longest temp invulns in the game. Builds are typically specced to power or condis, and endure pain/berserker stance makes you completely immune to some people’s builds.
The problem is right now, it’s not a pressure safety valve as it was intended to be.
The great god Lagki demands sacrifice.
(edited by Vagrant.7206)
Didn’t they stop that because of the SD builds? You would elixir s in front of their face and roll your face over your toolbelt skills and kill them with your burst
Didn’t they stop that because of the SD builds? You would elixir s in front of their face and roll your face over your toolbelt skills and kill them with your burst
Yeah, that was the primary reasoning, although engi bursts have never been that powerful. Back then, if you were running condi, you couldn’t stack conditions besides bleed, just timers. Power engis back then were grenadiers, which wasn’t bad at the time, but also not optimal.
That said, they have not updated the skill since that meta, making it much weaker against the current meta which can do heavy pressure more consistently.
The great god Lagki demands sacrifice.
I would like for it that you can end it early by clicking on skill again. Specially if you run increase elixir duration, by that time it ends the enemy can have free roam (even if you only needed to avoid only 1 heavy hitting skill with it), so the enemy is benefiting from it too sometimes.
all is vain
If you’re talking about utility skills then naaa. Eles mistform can’t use skills while in it.
Besides we got tons of blocks.As a matter of fact I’d like to see other invuln skills work as our elixir s rather than the other way around.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Obsidian_Flesh
Eles have two invuln skills available to them. Obsidian flesh lets them keep doing their thing, and it’s not even a utility either.
nd how many blocks do eles have or even have that fits builds that are efficient nowadays? Stealth?
This is a problem when people are comparing skills, they never take into consideration the classes as a whole.
Another question you should ask yourself is: Would elixir S when allowing skills to be cast be fun to play against?
My answer would without hestitation be no.
If you’re talking about utility skills then naaa. Eles mistform can’t use skills while in it.
Besides we got tons of blocks.As a matter of fact I’d like to see other invuln skills work as our elixir s rather than the other way around.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Obsidian_Flesh
Eles have two invuln skills available to them. Obsidian flesh lets them keep doing their thing, and it’s not even a utility either.
nd how many blocks do eles have or even have that fits builds that are efficient nowadays? Stealth?
This is a problem when people are comparing skills, they never take into consideration the classes as a whole.
Another question you should ask yourself is: Would elixir S when allowing skills to be cast be fun to play against?
My answer would without hestitation be no.
I’m not saying all skills should be allowed.
I’m saying that as it is, elixir S does not serve its purpose of saving the engineer’s life. It tends to doom the engineer. I see two fixes to this:
1) Allow toolbelt skills while in shrunk mode.
2) Make Elixir S provide both protection and stealth. This would fit in with its toolbelt skill.
The great god Lagki demands sacrifice.
I would like for it that you can end it early by clicking on skill again. Specially if you run increase elixir duration, by that time it ends the enemy can have free roam (even if you only needed to avoid only 1 heavy hitting skill with it), so the enemy is benefiting from it too sometimes.
This would be so good actually
M I L K B O I S
Another question you should ask yourself is: Would elixir S when allowing skills to be cast be fun to play against?
My answer would without hestitation be no.
Is there ANY invulnerability skill that is fun to play against?
Maybe elixir S, because you know you can chase that little rascal and finish him as soon as he de-transform.
“Only problem with the Engineer is
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks
Another question you should ask yourself is: Would elixir S when allowing skills to be cast be fun to play against?
My answer would without hestitation be no.
Is there ANY invulnerability skill that is fun to play against?
Maybe elixir S, because you know you can chase that little rascal and finish him as soon as he de-transform.
Which is why it’s the least valuable invuln… and why eles never carry mist form.
The great god Lagki demands sacrifice.
Then make it similar to Guardian’s invulnerability elite no? grant something at the end of the transformation (in Guardian’s case, they recieve a little heal after they get out)
Then make it similar to Guardian’s invulnerability elite no? grant something at the end of the transformation (in Guardian’s case, they recieve a little heal after they get out)
Well, that’s questionable because it’s the elite skill for a guardian. Elixir S is just a utility. Like I said, I think there’s 2 ways of making it not suck — enable axis to the toolbelt, or make it also grant stealth.
The great god Lagki demands sacrifice.
perhaps i am not good but i find elixir S real strong . With time reduction of alchemy and proc from alchemy you have it twice in a minute . It is a secure stomp and this is a great thing . With tools you have 6 secs stealth every 32 secs ( if i don’t get wrong ) , which is quite strong. The problem imho is that you have to use it smarty , for example , when health go down stealth before proc elixir S . Real problem is when you pop elixr S and you are full of conditions. .. you die in any case , but if it was different i think it would be too unbalanced .
perhaps i am not good but i find elixir S real strong . With time reduction of alchemy and proc from alchemy you have it twice in a minute . It is a secure stomp and this is a great thing . With tools you have 6 secs stealth every 32 secs ( if i don’t get wrong ) , which is quite strong. The problem imho is that you have to use it smarty , for example , when health go down stealth before proc elixir S . Real problem is when you pop elixr S and you are full of conditions. .. you die in any case , but if it was different i think it would be too unbalanced .
This bring forht another good point about elixir S compared to the invuln skills that allow skills.
Those skills don’t make you immune to ccs.
I would much rather have elixir S as it is now with cc immunity than the other way around.
This bring forht another good point about elixir S compared to the invuln skills that allow skills.
Those skills don’t make you immune to ccs.
I would much rather have elixir S as it is now with cc immunity than the other way around.[/quote]
Yes in spvp it is really a huge difference. When i stomp with elixir S i am sure stomp will succed ( without another player use stealth on downed) , when i do the same, for example with mesmer F4 ( which has a longer cd) cc break my stomp … it is a really huge difference . I really love elixir S as it is .
This bring forht another good point about elixir S compared to the invuln skills that allow skills.
Those skills don’t make you immune to ccs.
Erm, mist form, obsidian flesh, distortion, etc work the same as elixir S, they grant invuln, they also let you use skills to various extents, and they are all superior as invurns because of that.
And for things like endure pain that only grant direct damage immunity, sure they are much less effective for stomps, but on the other hand they are generally much better for getting away / recovering when you are in trouble as you can still use mobility skills, heals, condi clears, etc or for turning a fight around through counterpressure or simply offensively.
And really the one thing scrapper does not need is more help to stomp, when you have the stomp/res gyro, stab, stealth, etc.
With tools you have 6 secs stealth every 32 secs ( if i don’t get wrong ) ,
It is also somewhat irrelevant, if you look at say mesmer utilities do you say its okay utility X is lacking a bit, because I place it in slot 4 so I get distortion on f4? (that is rhetorical by the way)
(edited by zinkz.7045)
This bring forht another good point about elixir S compared to the invuln skills that allow skills.
Those skills don’t make you immune to ccs.Erm, mist form, obsidian flesh, distortion, etc work the same as elixir S, they grant invuln, they also let you use skills to various extents, and they are all superior as invurns because of that.
I prefer elixir S to all of them . I got stealth and invuln with the same utility. i can use them togegher or not . Ele has no disangage skills and mesmer has much better disengage skill other then distortion. I would not switch elixir S with any of the other skills you have said .
With tools you have 6 secs stealth every 32 secs ( if i don’t get wrong ) ,
It is also somewhat irrelevant, if you look at say mesmer utilities do you say its okay utility X is lacking a bit, because I place it in slot 4 so I get distortion on f4? (that is rhetorical by the way)
Agree distortion is not an utlity skills but when you use it you lose also your clones and for a mesmer it is a relevant thing, it is not cheap
(edited by PierPiero.9142)
I prefer elixir S to all of them .
Which is nice, but the point was you and the guy I quoted claimed “Those skills don’t make you immune to ccs.” about the invurns that let you use skills, you were talking nonsense.
Ele has no disangage skills…
What? Have you never played d/d ele where you had dagger 3, lighting flash, fiery greatsword, mist form itself gives 66% movement speed, etc.
mesmer has much better disengage skill other then distortion. I would not switch elixir S with any of the other skills you have said .
Distortion isn’t a disengage skill as such, you use it as part of a chain of skills that help you to disengage, you can also use to stomp like elixir S, but then unlike elixir S you can also use it offensively as you can use skills and to counterpressure, again unlike elxir S, as a disengage skill elixir S is trash (to the point the 25% trait will kill you often), much of the time it will just delay the inevitable, as opposed to other invurns (or semi-invurns) that offer far more options.
Agree distortion is not an utlity skills but when you use it you lose also your clones and for a mesmer it is a relevant thing, it is not cheap
You missed the point… It isn’t about distortion as such, it is about you saying elxir S is okay because the F skill for the toolbelt gives you stealth, the toolbelt skill is irrelevant, hence the mesmer example, you don’t say a not so good utility skill on mesmer is okay just because you slot it in the fouth space and there you have a good F4 skill do you, yet that is what you are doing for elixir S.
I got stealth and invuln with the same utility. i can use them togegher or not
No you haven’t, one is a utility the other is part of the profession mechanic and a separate skill, see above.
(edited by zinkz.7045)
This bring forht another good point about elixir S compared to the invuln skills that allow skills.
Those skills don’t make you immune to ccs.Erm, mist form, obsidian flesh, distortion, etc work the same as elixir S, they grant invuln, they also let you use skills to various extents, and they are all superior as invurns because of that.
Nah my point is that elixir S compared to ie warrior invuln, obsidian flesh and other invuln skills that allow you to cast skills as free as the previous forum users suggest that elixir S should do provides cc immunity instead
So if you wanted elixir S to work like that then you’d ofcourse have to sacrifice that perk.
Btw I don’t think mistform is a good example of an invuln skills that allow you to cast skills, as much as I’m aware of it only allows you to keep channeling your overloads and thats about it.
(edited by Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365)
Nah my point is that elixir S compared to ie warrior invuln, obsidian flesh and other invuln skills that allow you to cast skills as free as the previous forum users suggest that elixir S should do provides cc immunity instead
So if you wanted elixir S to work like that then you’d ofcourse have to sacrifice that perk.
And I repeat… Mist form, obsidian flesh, distortion, etc work the same as elixir S, they grant invuln, which bit of that do you not grasp?
There is no “perk”, all skills that I specified get the full invuln state are immune to CC, not just elxir S, except that those three skills can also use some or all skills whilst being immune, only things like endure pain are subject to CC.
Btw I don’t think mistform is a good example of an invuln skills that allow you to cast skills, as much as I’m aware of it only allows you to keep channeling your overloads and thats about it.
What? It gives you a bonus 66% to movement speed, you can channel tempest overloads so can heal yourself with the water overload, trigger regen, soothing mist, healing ripple, protection, an aura at the end, stab that lasts beyond mistform, etc it is vastly superior at getting out of trouble / recovering from a bad position, than the dead duck that is elixir S.
(edited by zinkz.7045)
Nah my point is that elixir S compared to ie warrior invuln, obsidian flesh and other invuln skills that allow you to cast skills as free as the previous forum users suggest that elixir S should do provides cc immunity instead
So if you wanted elixir S to work like that then you’d ofcourse have to sacrifice that perk.And I repeat… Mist form, obsidian flesh, distortion, etc work the same as elixir S, they grant invuln, which bit of that do you not grasp?
There is no “perk”, all skills that I specified get the full invuln state are immune to CC, not just elxir S, except that those three skills can also use some or all skills whilst being immune, only things like endure pain are subject to CC.
There aren’t just 4 invuln skills in the game, those were just examples. Don’t know if you realised that.
I also wrote in an earlier post that you cannot compare just the skills alone, you have to take into account, just as Piero did, the full class. When you defend buffing elixir S into something completely unnecessary I ’m starting to doubt you actually understand what engineers need buffed.
There might be flaws with the skill, but not to the extent that the engineer or scrapper class need an invuln skill that allows skills cast.Nor do we actually need mroe stealth.
There aren’t just 4 invuln skills in the game, those were just examples. Don’t know if you realised that.
Those were the examples that I made the point about and you quoted back at me, as opposed to others that it did not apply to that I didn’t mention, that is sort of how language /arguments work, rather than talking about examples I am not talking about…
….I ’m starting to doubt you actually understand what engineers need buffed.
LOL, coming from the guy that has such “understanding” of the game he thought elixir S being immune to CC was a special perk, you really shouldn’t be commenting on others given your own “understanding” is so flawed.
I also wrote in an earlier post that you cannot compare just the skills alone, you have to take into account, just as Piero did, the full class.
Which is irrelevant because as other people have mentioned the skill does not fulfill its basic purpose, all it does much of the time is delay the inevitable by a few seconds or worse with the trait it can actually kill you, because that it what happens when you design something that with the idea that you can use skills, then fundamentally change that without adapting the skill. (but I guess that applies to a lot of GW2 where throw enough kitten to see what sticks seems to be the mantra)
.Nor do we actually need mroe stealth.
I didn’t mention more stealth, in fact I haven’t mentioned at all what I think should be changed or not about elixir S, all I am doing is pointing out that it is a poorly designed skill, barely fit for purpose that is indeed the weakest invuln, to you and the other guy who can’t even get the mechanics of how the game works right.
(edited by zinkz.7045)
The problem that I see with Elixir S, Renewed Focus, Mist form and the like is that they do not make you truly invulnerable – you still take condition damage. Condition damage is already broken enough, it bypasses all defenses.
Having condition damage continue to tick when you are invulnerable and unable to do anything is taking something that is broken and letting it be even more broken.
The problem that I see with Elixir S, Renewed Focus, Mist form and the like is that they do not make you truly invulnerable – you still take condition damage. Condition damage is already broken enough, it bypasses all defenses.
Having condition damage continue to tick when you are invulnerable and unable to do anything is taking something that is broken and letting it be even more broken.
Is there an immunity skill (not an elite ) that make you immune to condition damage and direct damage also ? warrior has 2 skills , one for condition and other for direct damage . I think it would be a little overpowered. In any case when you use elixir S you are “immune” to new conditions … as you don’t take new condition on you. You are hit by conditions you have taken “before” you proc elixir S .. but it is quite obvious imho becouse conditions hit by time. If you block conditions you already have, like resistance , you cancel a damage you get “before” you proc the elixir.
The only thing Elixir S needs is the ability to manually remove it.
The problem that I see with Elixir S, Renewed Focus, Mist form and the like is that they do not make you truly invulnerable – you still take condition damage. Condition damage is already broken enough, it bypasses all defenses.
Having condition damage continue to tick when you are invulnerable and unable to do anything is taking something that is broken and letting it be even more broken.
Is there an immunity skill (not an elite ) that make you immune to condition damage and direct damage also ? warrior has 2 skills , one for condition and other for direct damage . I think it would be a little overpowered. In any case when you use elixir S you are “immune” to new conditions … as you don’t take new condition on you. You are hit by conditions you have taken “before” you proc elixir S .. but it is quite obvious imho becouse conditions hit by time. If you block conditions you already have, like resistance , you cancel a damage you get “before” you proc the elixir.
The listed skills prevent you from using other skills. You can die while invulnerable to condition damage, therefore you are not invulnerable and it is misleading. There is no way to break out of these skills once activated. Elixir S has an auto-proc at 25%. I have died many times to condition damage because of that trait locking me into a 3.75 second skill lockout. It would not broken if these invulnerable skills that prevent use of skills blocked condition damage as well, it would start to restore the power creep of conditions.
The problem that I see with Elixir S, Renewed Focus, Mist form and the like is that they do not make you truly invulnerable – you still take condition damage. Condition damage is already broken enough, it bypasses all defenses.
Having condition damage continue to tick when you are invulnerable and unable to do anything is taking something that is broken and letting it be even more broken.
Is there an immunity skill (not an elite ) that make you immune to condition damage and direct damage also ? warrior has 2 skills , one for condition and other for direct damage . I think it would be a little overpowered. In any case when you use elixir S you are “immune” to new conditions … as you don’t take new condition on you. You are hit by conditions you have taken “before” you proc elixir S .. but it is quite obvious imho becouse conditions hit by time. If you block conditions you already have, like resistance , you cancel a damage you get “before” you proc the elixir.
The listed skills prevent you from using other skills. You can die while invulnerable to condition damage, therefore you are not invulnerable and it is misleading. There is no way to break out of these skills once activated. Elixir S has an auto-proc at 25%. I have died many times to condition damage because of that trait locking me into a 3.75 second skill lockout. It would not broken if these invulnerable skills that prevent use of skills blocked condition damage as well, it would start to restore the power creep of conditions.
You can not take auto-proc trait, it is not mandatory . Other 2 in the same place are also really good
Invuln skills don’t stop “damage”. They ignore attacks. If you have condi damage on yourself, is because you have already been hit. If someone attack you with a condi dealing skill while you are invuln, you don’t take the direct damage nor the condi damage: you simply don’t take the hit.
That being said, no invuln skill intended to PROTECT you should lock your healing and cleansing skills. It don’t make sense, because it makes way too easy to die due to a simple mistake. And they DO intend Elixir S as a protective measure: that’s why they put it as an auto-proc for low healt in the first place.
As with everything engie,they simply forget to balance it, and now it is incoherent with its initial purpose.
Of course. “Purity of purpose”, all over again.
“Only problem with the Engineer is
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks