Guild Wars 2

Engineer the versatile class who now has no stun breaker no melee no protection in close combat has reached the level of being completely useless. There is no point in elixir s nerf. There were no reason to nerf it! Rifle engineer is so broken now! You turn tiny for 3 seconds and prepare to die now because you cant do anything ANYTHING! Seriously Anet you have done alot of bad decisisions for engineer but now you reached new level by completely braking this profession. Whos mastermind idea was to break this? Youve done the worst job in gaming history.

How the kitten we are supposed to play now?!?!?!?!?!??? WTFF!?!?!??!?!!?!?!?!?!??!?

Engineer has no stunbreakers? Utility Goggles, Rocket Boots, Elixir U, Elixir S, and Elixir R say otherwise. Protection Injection and Protective Shield along with Toss/Elixir H offer Engineers plenty of Protection. And not only does the Engineer have a melee-based weapon in the Tool Kit, both the Rifle (Blunderbuss) and Pistol (Blowtorch) work best from close range.

If you need help staying alive in close quarters, use the Shield. It has two blocks, one of which can be overcharged into an AoE knockback.

Only serious noob will use S after this. I mean wtf!? Anet devs made history of being kitten lol

lol using gadgets comon u can do better!

tool kit is not kittenin meelee weapon its meele strike!

ikiturso.4026:

tool kit is not kittenin meelee weapon its meele strike!

Enlighten me: what exactly is the difference?

All Elixir S does now is postpone your death by 3 seconds.

And the devs say they want to make utility skills more attractive compared to kits…

Phineas Poe.3018:

ikiturso.4026:

tool kit is not kittenin meelee weapon its meele strike!

Enlighten me: what exactly is the difference?

DPS. in WvW the auto skill is so slow that u die 8 times before able to use. Prypar is sick good skill that i use most ofthen and thhen shield and then usually its time to pop elixir s (in trait lines) AND HEAL URSELF and GET ELIxIR GUN and make retaliation field for ur comrades! I know this kitten profession so top acting.

they made it the same as the ele mist form, except the distance we can travel in elixir s form is much less. and ele’s can still swap attunements for their effects.

It was OP before, but at least make it equal to mist form.

Engineer the versatile class who now has no stun breaker

Elixir S is still an incredibly good skill. Just now you can’t cheat and guard your heal skill so it doesn’t get interrupted. There’s no counterplay with that. You can still stomp. You can still block an entire team’s attack. Just make sure to use it proactively instead of reactively.

no melee

Tool kit is pure melee. Bomb kit and Flamethrower are psuedo melee. In the end, why on earth do you think not having melee is a reason a class is bad?

no protection in close combat

Actually, we literally do have protection. Protection Injection and Protective shield cause protection when you need it most: While CCed and while hit critically. Not to mention the combination of tool kit and Elixir S gives you 6 seconds of invulnerability. Mix this with one of the best heal skills in the game (Med Kit) and the ability to go invisible sometimes. This is just scratching the surface of what Engis can do protection wise.

There is no point in elixir s nerf.

There was actually. In a 1v1, you have to interrupt the enemy heal skill if you want to win. There are always certain skills that need to be interrupted. Ele and Engi had the distinct advantage to completely block you from doing this all together. In fact, Engi could do this TWICE (at 25% hp and on demand). Mix this with reduced recharge on elixirs and it’s insanity. I could hold a point from 2-3 people for an entire match with my engi bunker.

You turn tiny for 3 seconds and prepare to die now because you cant do anything ANYTHING!

Use it proactively instead of reactively. If you use it when you are at a low health, you’re using it wrong. I will agree that the trait that causes it at 25% health is a bit weak now as it can totally screw you over by allowing conditions to destroy you.

Seriously Anet you have done alot of bad decisisions for engineer but now you reached new level by completely braking this profession.

This profession is far from broken. We still have the best AoE in the game. Grenade Kit. We can still do AMAZING condition burst. We still have one of the best stomp skills in the game. There is SO much engi can do.

Youve done the worst job in gaming history.

Only the Sith deal in absolutes.

well, it allows you to survive long enough till your dodge comes up.

Elixir-S was one of the class defining skills. Anyone who says different wasn’t using it right.

Kalan.9705:

Elixir-S was one of the class defining skills. Anyone who says different wasn’t using it right.

I’m not even sure what point you’re trying to make.

just got zerg rolled in wvw. I changed S for protection in tgraits. How is proteection supposed to work? didnt notice anything just got downed,

The Gates Assassin.9827:

There was actually. In a 1v1, you have to interrupt the enemy heal skill if you want to win. There are always certain skills that need to be interrupted. Ele and Engi had the distinct advantage to completely block you from doing this all together. In fact, Engi could do this TWICE (at 25% hp and on demand). Mix this with reduced recharge on elixirs and it’s insanity. I could hold a point from 2-3 people for an entire match with my engi bunker.

Warrior’s Endure Pain, Mesmer’s Distortion. Why didn’t they get the same treatment? Especially Distortion.

Yea elixir with cloaking device kittening hurt.

They could at least put a little 2-3k heal on it.

Yes… somehow this patch completely broke my bunker build. Next Time I build around gear, not gear around build, I guess… just need to postpone my Legendary aspirations and re-gear now :-(
Not that I feel so urged to play, at the moment… the broken Blizz Monk class has a lure again, after they broke my Engi

Melodrama Rating: 11 (The double-post, caps, and punctuation abuse cranked it up to 11.)

I can’t tell if this is a troll or not. Anyway, no, the nerf to Elixir S really did not break “engineer mechanics.” It does force people to use Elixir S in a different way—for example, defensively to gain some space or to allow time for dodge/heal to cooldown instead of aggressively—but it didn’t break anything.

If your entire build/gameplay was built around one little utility skill, chances are it wasn’t balanced. Besides, they gave Mist Form the same treatment.

Adapt. It’s not the end of the world.

Mif.3471:

They could at least put a little 2-3k heal on it.

I really hope this post is a joke.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Mif.3471:

They could at least put a little 2-3k heal on it.

I really hope this post is a joke.

Sorry to crush your hopes.

I don’t see why it’s unreasonable. Previously we could use med kit while under the effect of Elixir S and heal for 3k. In this very same patch they attached a “1980 to 2700” heal to Mug for Thieves.

But thank you for “contributing” to the debate.

Drop bandages before Elixir S, still heal up while tiny and profit.

Elixir S is still a complete evade. It’s still our best anti-burst and anti-focus tool. It’s extra dodging that works under absolutely any situation. If dodges are blocks were useful before then Elixir S will remain useful as well.

The ability to do stuff while completely invulnerable was overpowered, especially given its short cooldown. This change was more then needed, and we don’t need to be able to perform actions during Elixir S to win fights.

Of course the automatic Elixir S at 25% is kind of broken now, due to still being able to die to conditions and not being able to counter that (if you didn’t drop bandages/antidote beforehand).

I think all of the 25% defensive skill trigger traits have that as a weakness. Our’s will cleanse a single condition with 409 at least. Honestly though, I’ve never liked our automatic Elixir S because it interrupts you.

Mif.3471:

I don’t see why it’s unreasonable. Previously we could use med kit while under the effect of Elixir S and heal for 3k.

Which is not how they intended Elixir S to work, the same as Mist Form.

With the right traits, Elixir S is a 3-second immunity on a 48-second cooldown, breaks stuns, cures a condition, gives two stacks of Might, and can additionally be thrown for another removed condition, another stack of Might, and Stealth/Stability. And you want it to heal us too? GTFO. This entire thread reeks of entitlement.

Mug/Steal is a class-defining skill. Elixir S is a utility skill. They’re not even comparable.

Show me one stunbreaker that any class has that even matches half the utility of Elixir S, and then we can talk.

Amazed that this community has devolved to bawling over balance changes that are 100% reasonable.

Phineas Poe.3018:

cures a condition, gives two stacks of Might, and can additionally be thrown for another removed condition, another stack of Might

Those are due to traits, not Elixir S.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Amazed that this community has devolved to bawling over balance changes that are 100% reasonable.

Because if anyone disagrees with you they must be stupid right?
/facepalm

Mif.3471:

Those are due to traits, not Elixir S.

So we should judge the strength of a skill in a vacuum without considering what it can be traited to do already? That sounds like an awful way to balance a game.

Mif.3471:

Because if anyone disagrees with you they must be stupid right?
/facepalm

Where did I say that?

I think you guys are being melodramatic, that’s all.

Yeah.
With the right traits.
They are an added bonus. By itself, elixir S is quite useless now.
It was strong before? Oh, sure. One of the few skills we had that was better than other classes.Still, i can’t see why we are the only class that gets constantly nerfed whenever it excels at something.

Who doesn’t take Cleansing Formula 409 in sPvP/WvW?

Serious question.

Let’s see…me. Flamethrower/elixir gun user. And elixir S, before the nerf.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Who doesn’t take Cleansing Formula 409 in sPvP/WvW?

Serious question.

This question highlights what a bad job the devs are doing. Their attempts to promote build diversity are backfiring, patch after patch.

Manuhell.2759:

Let’s see…me. Flamethrower/elixir gun user.

That’s funny. I use it all the time.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Manuhell.2759:

Let’s see…me. Flamethrower/elixir gun user.

That’s funny. I use it all the time.

Well, have fun wasting a slot, then. I can’t see much value in “3s of delaying the unavoidable demise”, after all.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Who doesn’t take Cleansing Formula 409 in sPvP/WvW?

Serious question.

You argue balance a few posts up, and than you point at the very issue with engineer builds.
How can it even be remotely balanced if we are all supposed to take 20 points in Alchemy AND use elixirs?

Even if you use Elixir S, that still shouldn’t mean that cleansing formula 409 should be a given!

Before the patch elixir S provided utility for those who did not traited elixirs… now it doesn’t anymore. Med-kit is the least that should work.
Now we are pushed more towards the whole elixir-Alchemy builds than before.

That’s the underlying issue that annoys me with most recent changes: we are more and more pushed towards a single way of traiting: 20 points in Alchemy and at least some elixir seems the main way to go for engineers. Not even starting on HGH or might stacking as the only basis of doing good damage.

This is utter crap for balancing.
It leaves engineers with extremely limited build choices, patch after patch.

The healing turret change actually tries to remedy that a bit, but if it comes with small nerfs such as this, the desired effect will not be that we get more viable builds…
Not to mention their intention with healing turret was that we leave it out now, and even that didn’t work out. But that’s another discussion.

When engineers complain that rangers get a minor trait the same as our grandmaster trait, people answer that you can’t compare professions trait for trait.
But when ele’s needed a nerf… we get our elixir S nerfed too without looking at the bigger picture for engineer builds.

Manuhell.2759:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Manuhell.2759:

Let’s see…me. Flamethrower/elixir gun user.

That’s funny. I use it all the time.

Well, have fun wasting a slot, then. I can’t see much value in “3s of delaying the unavoidable demise”, after all.

I was talking about Cleansing Formula 409, not Elixir S. That was, after all, the question:

“Who doesn’t take Cleansing Formula 409 in sPvP/WvW?”

Kimbald.2697:

You argue balance a few posts up, and than you point at the very issue with engineer builds.

Cleansing Formula is a powerful trait. So was Kit Refinement.

So is Evasive Arcana and Altruistic Healing. All classes have “must-have” traits. Suggesting that this is an Engineer-only problem, or that this is even a problem in the first place confuses me. The Healing Turret buff was precisely to introduce the alternative: two conditions removed every 15 seconds. That’s certainly powerful, though like the Rifle/Net/Flame Turret buffs last month, I don’t think it goes far enough. But it is a start.

If you think that ANet fails at balancing the Engineer that’s your perspective. But this thread is about Elixir S and how apparently changing the way it works kills the build. Even though Warriors know and love Endure Pain, and Elementalists roll with Mist Form often.

Apparently because it doesn’t allow you to heal yourself anymore, it’s all of a sudden a busted skill and the class is broken. QQ more. Seriously.

You guys kitten and moan that the developers don’t bother talking to you, yet you never bother to take a moment and read the tripe you write and realize that effective communication requires the effort of two parties—not one.

This forum is a cesspool, and has been since January. This thread is Exhibit A of that. Not even sure why I bother coming here anymore.

It was a significant nerf, but as some top engineers have noted, the previous elixir S was in serious contention for the single best stunbreaker in the game. Three seconds of mobile invulnerability is never useless in WvW, as positioning can change drastically in three seconds. I’ll have to see how it feels in tournaments—my gut tells me it will still be better than R/boots/goggles for most builds.

Using abilities while tiny was really fun, though, and I’ll miss it. WvW engineers did get hit pretty hard this patch, although healing turret buff is not as trivial as it sounds.

To answer the question: yes, I use 409 in tournaments and WvW. If healing turret turns out to be a viable alternate source of condition removal I may change that. I can’t imagine walking into a tourney without reasonable condition removal (1 super elixir every 16-20 seconds does not count). WvW/hotjoins are easier because people aren’t as good, but condition removal is still really important.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Kimbald.2697:

You argue balance a few posts up, and than you point at the very issue with engineer builds.

Cleansing Formula is a powerful trait. So was Kit Refinement.

So is Evasive Arcana and Altruistic Healing. All classes have “must-have” traits. Suggesting that this is an Engineer-only problem, or that this is even a problem in the first place confuses me. The Healing Turret buff was precisely to introduce the alternative: two conditions removed every 15 seconds. That’s certainly powerful, though like the Rifle/Net/Flame Turret buffs last month, I don’t think it goes far enough. But it is a start.

If you think that ANet fails at balancing the Engineer that’s your perspective. But this thread is about Elixir S and how apparently changing the way it works kills the build. Even though Warriors know and love Endure Pain, and Elementalists roll with Mist Form often.

Apparently because it doesn’t allow you to heal yourself anymore, it’s all of a sudden a busted skill and the class is broken. QQ more. Seriously.

don’t quote me and than end with a stupid line as if I said the class was broken or that elixir S was a busted skill.
Not a single one of my posts was the sort of QQ you accuse it to be.

Quote me where I said any of this.

I try to remain reasonable in all my posts and discussions. You’re being an arrogant kitten if you put words in my mouth like that.
Stick to the arguments, not your own crusade against anyone saying something is wrong please. Because that is what your last line makes it sound… it sure as hell wasn’t related to anything I posted.

And on topic: yes, I consider it a very bad design if engineers can’t survive without putting 20 points in Alchemy.
It just is, it leaves less room for other viable builds.

Healing turret changes are nice, and a step in the right direction.
But what good is a turret if it dies in seconds AND forces you to remain in range anyhow?
Turrets have issues that no patch has yet adressed.

As for elixirs: they simply have all the trait support we can only dream of for turrets or gadgets. Kits are somewhere in the middle.

All the latest small changes (Kit refinement and this Elixir S mostly) further limit really different builds.
you seem ok with that, which is fine as an opinion, but I personally think it’s a bad design.

Oh, and in case you missed it: I do not think elixir S is utterly useless now, nor have I ever thought engineers were broken… they simply aren’t finished yet either. And the pace of improving them is too slow for my liking, that’s all.

Kimbald.2697:

Not a single one of my posts was the sort of QQ you accuse it to be.

I was speaking generally at the end of my post.

This entire thread is one elaborate QQ. That is my issue. This community just cannot take a single change to the class with any semblance of dignity. Constantly a half-glass empty perspective.

But really, you have nothing to say about the point of “must have” traits? Every class has them. I fail to see the issue with that.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Kimbald.2697:

Not a single one of my posts was the sort of QQ you accuse it to be.

I was speaking generally at the end of my post.

This entire thread is one elaborate QQ. That is my issue. This community just cannot take a single change to the class with any semblance of dignity. Constantly a half-glass empty perspective.

But really, you have nothing to say about the point of “must have” traits? Every class has them. I fail to see the issue with that.

you quoted me, that means it’s directed at me in normal language.
If you didn’t mean that: fine, watch what you write than. There is no way I shouldn’t have taken that one personal.

It’s not because you had a point to make, that you can just pick anyone to use for that.
Leaving it for what it is now, but in the future step back a moment before you start throwing out dirt. And see who you’re adressing first.

I’m fine with you saying there is too much complaining and all that.
It’s an opinion and I value it for that.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I was talking about Cleansing Formula 409, not Elixir S. That was, after all, the question:

“Who doesn’t take Cleansing Formula 409 in sPvP/WvW?”

Well, i misinterpreted the reply. Anyway, i don’t use it. I used just elixir H and S anyway. Now i would rather use a couple turrets or something else, depending on the situation.
By the way, was it that wrong if we were “best” in something? Or we’re supposed to be mediocre in everything, maybe? Cause every single time there is something good, it gets nerfed to the ground. And it feels quite annoying.

Kimbald.2697:

And on topic: yes, I consider it a very bad design if engineers can’t survive without putting 20 points in Alchemy.

I think there’s plenty to argue with that statement. Engineers can definitely survive without Cleansing Formula. I just don’t see why someone would want to go without it.

It’d be like using the Flamethrower without grabbing Deadly Mixture. Certain traits are no-brainers. If you use a lot of elixirs, you should grab Cleansing Formula.

Must have traits are always bad in this game i think. The dev’s advertise their whole build diversity as a strong and important feature of the game.
Not just for the engineer: must-have traits aren’t good for any profession. And I do agree engineers aren’t the only ones suffering from that.

That’s part of why I don’t like small changes such as this one.
They diminish the way we can make non-alchemy builds work a bit.
Elixir S was usefull even without any points in Alchemy, simply because you could use med-kit for the cleanse and swiftness to get away.
Now you almost are forced to hae cleansing formula 409 to get rid of whatever is holding you back when you pop elixir S.

This would be ok… IF our best builds didn’t already go 20 points in Alchemy at least.
So instead of opening variety of builds, it’s a small push towards the same strong builds again.
Kit refinement was the same issue.

Healing turret was a step in the right direction, not perfect but at least it goes away from elixirs and does not rely on any trait in Alchemy.

This post is overly dramatic and vitriolic, but I’m liking the discussion that’s come out of it. Way to turn it around and get to the heart of the matter. Threads like this make me glad to be part of the Engineer community. This is not tongue in cheek or sarcasm.

The talk about build diversity is a good direction to take this thread in, so I hope it stays open for a while longer.

I have to say that I don’t like the idea of being forced to take 20 points into Alchemy to make this Utility skill really shine. Build diversity, to me, is about being able to grab the Utility skills you think you will need without diluting your build’s focus. I think Elixir S should be able to stand up to other similar skills without the benefit of 20 points worth of traits that not all builds need.

The healing turret change is a step in the right direction, as clunky as it is. Without any traits whatsoever, it’s a functioning condition cleanse, and medium sized heal. My only problem with it right now is that it takes bad opponents to really make it shine and work as intended.

I feel that the same goes for Elixir S. Generally, players don’t burst until they know they have you stunned or locked down. That’s where Elixir S comes in, but there’s the rub because they can bait your Elixir out, and then delay their burst combo by 3 seconds, and possibly use another CC when you come out of your invulnerable state. Bad players however will make Elixir S look like a tier 1 ability, when in reality it is now solidly (imo) tier 2.

Thoughts?

Phineas Poe.3018:

Kimbald.2697:

And on topic: yes, I consider it a very bad design if engineers can’t survive without putting 20 points in Alchemy.

I think there’s plenty to argue with that statement. Engineers can definitely survive without Cleansing Formula. I just don’t see why someone would want to go without it.

It’d be like using the Flamethrower without grabbing Deadly Mixture. Certain traits are no-brainers. If you use a lot of elixirs, you should grab Cleansing Formula.

not saying you’re wrong with these things. They do make sense.

But the question for me is: why would you need to take cleansing formula if you use ONLY elixir S as elixir?
Without this trait, the elixir S is mostly a 3 second wait to get downed…
No more cleansing, no more swiftness, no more healing.

I can live with not being allowed to prybar or bomb someone when invulnerable. But the healing skill should have stayed for me.
Runes of grenth, or a pushback turret explosion… they were ways to escape with elixir S.
Engineers could do with such ways to escape, we aren’t the best at that at all.
So that’s why I don’t think that changing this for ele’s was reason enough to change it for engineers.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Mif.3471:

I don’t see why it’s unreasonable. Previously we could use med kit while under the effect of Elixir S and heal for 3k.

Which is not how they intended Elixir S to work, the same as Mist Form.

With the right traits, Elixir S is a 3-second immunity on a 48-second cooldown, breaks stuns, cures a condition, gives two stacks of Might, and can additionally be thrown for another removed condition, another stack of Might, and Stealth/Stability. And you want it to heal us too? GTFO. This entire thread reeks of entitlement.

Mug/Steal is a class-defining skill. Elixir S is a utility skill. They’re not even comparable.

Show me one stunbreaker that any class has that even matches half the utility of Elixir S, and then we can talk.

Amazed that this community has devolved to bawling over balance changes that are 100% reasonable.

You just described what Elixir S does in an HGH build. I know that you put a twist on the might stacking build by using FT, but that doesn’t eliminate the fact that what you’re saying highlights the lack of build diversity achievable within our profession—well, highlights it or is just accepting of it.

I’m in the middle here because while I think the OP is not being constructive, I do see a problem with accepting a skill as being okay within the context of a very specific build.