Guild Wars 2

First the good:

Elixirs do have it all!

Untraited even, they offer:
- boons
- applying conditions
- condition removals
- aoe projectile reflect or blocking
- several stunbreakers that all are usefull for other things as well
- (self) rez
- securing stomps or escapes
- support both offensive as defensive

Their traits:
- allow for might stacking
- are all in one logical line, not scattered
- offer great defenses as well as superb offense
- reduce the reasonable cooldowns to cooldowns that make a difference
- benefit from the line they are in for most elixirs
- work on ALL elixirs without exception, thrown or used (let’s call EG ‘elixirs’ not elixirs since they’re not…)

You can never use them all, so you always have to chose. Still they offer a lot of utility no matter what combo you make.

Elixirs are the most versatile and strongest skill set an engineer has acces too, and compared to the rest, their design is superb.
They’re not perfect, but they’re very good.

The bad:

the other sets of engineer skill do not have it all…

Untraited:
- kits still have no stunbreaker
- kits only have 1 ability that removes conditions
- kits have only a small ‘regeneration’ in EG, no other boons or buffs

- gadgets have only rocket boots removing a few immobilize conditions, not a single damage condition removal

- turrets have no stun breaker
- turrets have no condition removal aside healing turret itself
- turrets have still some unreasonable cooldown mechanics

Traited:
- only Flamethrower gets might
- gadget traits are non existant, aside the standard cooldown lowering
- kit traits are good, but hard to trait for mutliple kits seeing where the traits sit
- turret traits are mostly very weak AND also scattered all over the place.

Neither turrets, kits or worse of all gadgets, offer the utility elixirs give. Several are hardly used or totally gimmicky.
Some are quite good of course, but in general they aren’t as streamlined in design as elixirs… not by far.

I realise I’m generalising, this isn’t a totally objective presentation.
Still it shows the difference between elixirs on one side, and the other sets on the other side.
The spectrum of ‘well designed’ goes from elixirs… … … kits… … turrets… gadgets.

Multi-kit builds, multi-turret builds, and worse of all multi-gadget builds all lack in several departments.
While multi-elixir builds can give you everything you need.

Most important solution! Elixir design should be the standard to which the other sets are measured!

I’ve posted this on another thread but elixirs are only good because of their traits. We need better traits for gadgets, kits and turrets or they will never get even close to elixirs.

Kimbald.2697:

Multi-kit builds, multi-turret builds, and worse of all multi-gadget builds all lack in several departments. While multi-elixir builds can give you everything you need.

Don’t you think maybe this is intentional? A Guardian gives up a stunbreaker slotting consecrations on his bar. A Warrior gives up a stunbreaker slotting a banner on his bar.

We give up a stunbreaker slotting kits on our bar. Maybe Engineers need to start to accept that four-kit builds are really just a gimmick and not how the Engineer is intended to be played. Certainly you can do it, just like a Warrior could fill their bar with banners, but there are sacrifices; I run with the FT + EG all the time and still do just fine. If I need additional stunbreakers, I have to give up the Elixir Gun.

This is balance.

Elixirs and gadgets are our shouts and signets, essentially. If you look at them that way, things start to make a lot more sense. And I disagree that much work needs to be done on gadgets. Reducing their cooldowns is pretty much the extent of it.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Kimbald.2697:

Multi-kit builds, multi-turret builds, and worse of all multi-gadget builds all lack in several departments. While multi-elixir builds can give you everything you need.

Don’t you think maybe this is intentional? A Guardian gives up a stunbreaker slotting consecrations on his bar. A Warrior gives up a stunbreaker slotting a banner on his bar.

We give up a stunbreaker slotting kits on our bar. Maybe Engineers need to start to accept that four-kit builds are really just a gimmick and not how the Engineer is intended to be played. Certainly you can do it, just like a Warrior could fill their bar with banners, but there are sacrifices; I run with the FT + EG all the time and still do just fine. If I need additional stunbreakers, I have to give up the Elixir Gun.

This is balance.

Elixirs and gadgets are our shouts and signets, essentially. If you look at them that way, things start to make a lot more sense. And I disagree that much work needs to be done on gadgets. Reducing their cooldowns is pretty much the extent of it.

yet they made elixir U a stunbreaker in the same patch they destroyed the poor man’s stunbreaker that Kit Refinement was…

Kit refinement was a good compromise: the stun stays, but you’re not entirely helpless either.

I totally disagree on the gadgets: half of them is enver used, if even that much.
Mine is pretty good again, after a long recovery. Rocket boots are nice but they’re basically an escape where you self-stun after moving out of harm’s way. Compare it to elixir S or R and it’s rubbish…

As for their traits: why isn’t there a trait that removes conditions on gadget use? Their cooldowns are comparable to elixirs and their utility is LESS.
Gadgets would deserve such a trait before elixirs do, heck a few elixirs even remove conditions as it is.
Or a trait that gives might? Again: elixirs already offer better boons than gadgets, by a long margin…

I agree that slotting 1 or more elixirs is mandatory for a competitive tournament build.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Maybe Engineers need to start to accept that four-kit builds are really just a gimmick and not how the Engineer is intended to be played.

It’s possible that the devs are actively against letting 4-kit builds be our strongest, as they are ridiculously difficult to play. I’m a little confused about the word “gimmick” here. To my understanding, a gimmick is a cheap trick or loophole. That’s…pretty much the opposite of a 4-kit playstyle.

Ehh, Elixirs just follow the current straightforward meta. They’re simple to play, simple to trait for, easy to use and maintain, and have a lot of get out of jail free cards. I wouldn’t really call it the most versatile but it’s just the most survivable against human opponents when you stand alone. It’s a build that easily removes the most common threats while increasing damage with the least maintenance.

And it doesnt give you everything. They don’t give me any fields aside aside I take Elixir U. And they don’t have any options for control, which is probably my favorite part of the class.

Elixirs are wonderful, but they have a focused purpose. You can make the argument that they don’t have any elixirs that deal damage or cc like our kits do. I don’t have any problem with the functionality or theme of any of our utility types.

Gadgets need a cooldown reduction across the board. Things like Rocket Boots would be great if they had a shorter CD and a shorter self-cc. Their toolbelt skill rocks & I’ve really only every brought it for that skill, because the self-cc sucks. Goggles could be amazing…if I could use em more often. PBR? Same boat as RB. Slick shoes? Forever CD.

I take other utilities over gadgets because I can use the gadgets so infrequently.

Kimbald.2697:

yet they made elixir U a stunbreaker in the same patch they destroyed the poor man’s stunbreaker that Kit Refinement was…

Kit refinement was a good compromise: the stun stays, but you’re not entirely helpless either.

Kit Refinement wasn’t a “poor man’s” anything. It was the best 10-point trait we had, if not one of the best ones in the game. Slotting only the Elixir Gun on your bar allowed you to 100% sustain a Light field. Do you know how many other classes can do this with 10 trait points?

Nobody.

Not even Guardians. I don’t even think it’s possible at all. They can sustain Retaliation on themselves with Mighty Blow, but that requires giving up significant trait options because you’re tethered to Two-Handed Mastery and Writ of Persistence. That means giving up traits like Empowering Might (more suited for GS but still), Pure of Voice, and Writ of the Merciful. Even still, their Light field disappears in the middle of their Hammer chain.

Super Elixir already heals allies and removes a condition without traits. It is still arguably the best Light field in the entire game, especially since Super Elixir is way more massive with a significantly longer duration than any of their Symbols or Consecrations.

Kit Refinement was stupidly powerful as a 10-point trait. You just can’t argue around this. I think they went the wrong way about revising it, as I think it would have been better off leaving the Grenade Barrage and Super Elixir and just buffing the Med Kit, Tool Kit, and Bomb Kit procs and having it be our 30-point trait in Tools, but ArenaNet clearly prefers just nerfing stuff than shifting traits around as has been seen with their balancing of other classes.

If you want to talk about integrating condition removal into kits beyond Super Elixir, that’s fine. But I need you to recognize that all classes in Guild Wars 2 deal with entire subsets of skills not providing stunbreakers. Our kits are just one of many—i.e., consecrations, banners, conjures, spirits, traps, etc.

Not all skill subsets break stuns. Across any class. Certain setups are naturally tilted for breaking stuns and others aren’t.

Until you accept this, I don’t see the point in having this conversation.

Kimbald.2697:

I totally disagree on the gadgets: half of them is enver used, if even that much.
Mine is pretty good again, after a long recovery. Rocket boots are nice but they’re basically an escape where you self-stun after moving out of harm’s way. Compare it to elixir S or R and it’s rubbish…

Do Elixir S or R apply 10 stacks of Vulnerability to your target? Do they knock them back? Do they knock them down? Do they remove boons?

Gadgets are situationally useful by design, and some of them offer two interrupts in a single utility slot. How many other classes do you think have that advantage?

Spoiler alert: Nobody else.

Easiest fix to Kit refinemnt would have been: remove the too strong super elixir and grenade barrage, but leave the rest of the mechanic as it was… those were the 2 parts considered ‘too strong for a 10 point trait’.
Or your solution of course: stronger all around but as 30 GM trait.
My solution was more realistic, but they even didn’t want to do that…

Anyhow, gadgets are of course usefull.
But where i see elixirs in most of the builds (not all, just most) I only occasionaly see a gadget in there… big sign something is wrong.
And elixirs do not offers knockbacks or 10 stacks of vulnerability (on a waaaay too long cooldown by the way) but they offer a crapload of other good stuff. Don’t make it sound as if both have their equal uses. Elixirs are far more usefull to most builds and aspects of the game.
Do gadgets rezz, do they give mutliple boons, do they give invulnerability? Etc etc… it’s a silly discussion;: they both do cool things, only elixirs have the traits to back it up, where gadgets don’t…

There is no argument why gadgets shouldn’t get traits that remove conditions on use, or give might (or another boon, stability would be cool as trait for gadgets).

Elixirs are fine by the way.
It’s the rest I feel is lacking in the trait department mostly.
Gadgets have no real traits, and turret traits are weak and scattered.
Kits do fine in traits, but as soon as you use more than 2 kits, you can never trait for all of it. You say this is intended, I say I want to hear a dev say that first.
I personally think it is bad design, or sloppy design, or unfocused design mostly… just scrambled together bit by bit after launch because they didn’t finish it properly.

Just looking at the traits: there is a reason the most popular and best engineer build currently is working on elixir traits mostly you know… you can’t achieve that kind of strenght with turret or gadget traits, kit traits you can depending on the kit.

@Phineas Poe

I’m curious, What is the unknown gadget you are talking about that have two interrupt in a single utility slot?

Oh nice So Elixir S or R can’t apply 10 stack of vulnerability. Man the poor elixir. They are stuck with only being able to rez you from downed state or make you immune for 3 second + invis/stability. How bad are they!

Right now, Gadgets are not on the same level then Elixirs or Kits.

They have longer cooldown, they have only 1 trait affecting them, and like you said they are situationnal.

Why take something that might be handy, over something else that is always handy.

Personal Ram → Single target knock back, 900 range cripple with good damage.
Toolkit → Hard hitting prybar, 5 stack of confusion, AoE cripple, 3 sec Block, 1200 range pull, throw wrench hit harder then personal ram toolbelt.

Traited
Personal Ram → 20% cooldown reduction on the utility slot, not the toolbelt.
Toolkit → with one trait, you reduc cooldown of 5 skills, and you add cripple to both the auto attack and the throw wrench (making it superior to Perso ram in every aspect).

Why would you take Ram over Toolkit except if you already have it, and you are using an SD build.

by the way, I want to explain something about my recent posts (about turrets, Kit refinement, now elixirs and traits…)

The discussions on the engineer forum tend to go in ‘yay’ and ‘nay’ a lot as usual.
Even though i’m often on the ‘nay’ side, I still want to have open and constructive discussions.
So I pick a field where I think the design is lacking, or where I’m not sure what to think.
Than I write a post that is too long, and throw it out there for discussion.

I hope, when it adresses a more seperate mechanic, that the discussion will be about that aspect (as happens here for example).

So I welcome people disagreeing with me, else the discussion would be useless.
I’m not to keen on seeing opinions disguised as facts too much, but if that’s the worst the discussion brings than it’s still decent for forum standards

Just thought I would explain myself a bit here. I’m not writing hidden whine posts, i’m trying to point at what I think needs improvement. And always looking for different views to open up my horizon.

There is a merit to both sides of the argument here. While kits offer a larger variety of skills and utility, it is also harder to use several kits together and juggle between the skills. Gadget are in comparison easier to use but once you use one they go on a long CD that makes one of your utility slots useless for a rather long time.

Kardiamond.6952:

I’m curious, What is the unknown gadget you are talking about that have two interrupt in a single utility slot?

Oh nice So Elixir S or R can’t apply 10 stack of vulnerability. Man the poor elixir. They are stuck with only being able to rez you from downed state or make you immune for 3 second + invis/stability. How bad are they!

I’m confused. Are you suggesting that 10 stacks of Vulnerability isn’t worth using in any situation? That’s 10% additional damage for 8 seconds. For burst builds like Static Discharge, it makes a huge difference. Just because it doesn’t suit every build out there doesn’t mean there’s a problem.

Some skills are allowed to be situational and swapped out as needed. Does a Guardian bring Wall of Reflection to every boss encounter? Of course not. And neither should we believe that Elixir S is necessary for all content either. You’re arguing that gadgets are not on the same level as elixirs—I’m saying that gadgets suit an entirely different role. You might as well compare cantrips to conjures. Ice Bow has its uses; just because you don’t slot it all the time for your Elementalist doesn’t take away that point.

As for the double interrupt, that’s a mistake. I thought Launch PBR also knocked down foes, but it only cripples. Either way, having two CC abilities in a single slot is still very nice. We additionally can use Throw Mine granting us two different boon removal skills in one slot.

Certain skills are allowed to be situationally useful. Why is this a problem to you?

Phineas, just returning to the bigger picture here:

let’s say that gadgets are as usefull as elixirs, which you seem to be arguing.
A valid point, even I don’t think it holds for the ‘group of gadgets’ versus ‘the group of elixirs’.
Still: let’s say they are…

if they are equally usefull, than why do the elixirs have such strong traits, that define our strongest builds no less.
And gadgets have none?

Surely, if they are equal after all, they could have several traits buffing their use, just like elixirs have?

Condition removal on gadget use for example.
Some elixirs even remove conditions as it is! They get that on top of that.

Same for might: elixir B already gives might and other boons, and it has a minor trait giving one B for free at 75%!
Yet elixirs get the extremely powerfull and defining trait HGH and gadgets get nothing even remotely comparable to that.
Plenty of things to give, stability being the most fitting and missing in my view

So it’s about the traits, as much as it is about gadgets vs elixirs.

At the moment you seem to be saying that gadgets are about equal to fully traited elixirs.
Because that is the REAL comparison.
On that one I would have to disagree with you in the strongest way.

I love the utility of a multi kit build… but ya the lack of condition removal is just so painful.

There are a few small changes they could make to help make the multi kit builds a bit more viable… I would say in tools take something like IV Kit Refinement and swap it with X Leg Mods. Then Add to Kit Refinement a Wipe one Condition on kit swap (5s cool down). I think that would be a tempting add… and considering Power wrench is another option there it would make for a choice in build layout.

For turret builds they could add something simpler to either Inventions XII rifled barrels or better yet explosives IX Acclerent-packed turrets… something like a AOE condition clear when a turret explodes. (using it as a clear… would mean loosing its dps putting it on cool down ect)

I understand every class needs to have a weekness or two. Still I think adding solutions higher up in the trait lines is a good way to ensure the jack of all trades class, gets played multiple ways, as intended.

Seras.5702:

Things like Rocket Boots would be great if they had a shorter CD and a shorter self-cc. Their toolbelt skill rocks & I’ve really only every brought it for that skill, because the self-cc sucks. Goggles could be amazing…if I could use em more often. PBR? Same boat as RB. Slick shoes? Forever CD.

I take other utilities over gadgets because I can use the gadgets so infrequently.

I like the concept of them, but yeah they are more suicidal than not atm, ESPECIALLY if you get CC’d with your back to anything within 500~ units.
Might as well just take their stun over blowing a CD to stun yourself again.

That was somewhat expected. Elixir + HGH*409 is pretty much the core of our PvP gameplay, just like D/D + Cantrips to an Elementalist.

The only annoying thing is that Engi utility skills are potentially close to being perfectly balanced between themselves. I play a gadget / turret variant of most of popular builds, it includes:

Net Turret.
Rocket Turret.
Personnal Battery Ram.
Slick Shoes.
And sometimes Rocket Boots to compensate the lack of Burning damage when going P/S.

They add some extra oomph during combat, but they won’t grant you that godlike survivability + decent offense and the ability to handle outnumbering, oh, and the ability to shug off conditions.

Kimbald.2697:

At the moment you seem to be saying that gadgets are about equal to fully traited elixirs.
Because that is the REAL comparison.

I’ve already put it the best way I possibly could why I think gadgets are fine, aside from their lengthy cooldowns:

Phineas Poe.3018:

You’re arguing that gadgets are not on the same level as elixirs—I’m saying that gadgets suit an entirely different role. You might as well compare cantrips to conjures. Ice Bow has its uses; just because you don’t slot it all the time for your Elementalist doesn’t take away that point.

If you need the Might or condition removal, then use elixirs.

But if you need a knockback/snare, elixirs won’t help you.
If you need to widen or close a gap between you and your foe, elixirs—beyond Swiftness—won’t help you.
If you need boon removal, elixirs won’t help you.

Gadgets will.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Kimbald.2697:

At the moment you seem to be saying that gadgets are about equal to fully traited elixirs.
Because that is the REAL comparison.

I’ve already put it the best way I possibly could why I think gadgets are fine, aside from their lengthy cooldowns:

Phineas Poe.3018:

You’re arguing that gadgets are not on the same level as elixirs—I’m saying that gadgets suit an entirely different role. You might as well compare cantrips to conjures. Ice Bow has its uses; just because you don’t slot it all the time for your Elementalist doesn’t take away that point.

If you need the Might or condition removal, then use elixirs.

But if you need a knockback/snare, elixirs won’t help you.
If you need to widen or close a gap between you and your foe, elixirs—beyond Swiftness—won’t help you.
If you need boon removal, elixirs won’t help you.

Gadgets will.

Phineas Poe, I got a feeling that you are the kind of guy that will find good in anything. I feel like everytime I go in a thread about a skill being a bit lackluster, you are there to defend it.

Do you like to side with the poor?

Please give me an example as something that is lackluster, is there anything the engineer lacks?

Now on subject, I still fail to see how traited gadget are on par with traited elixir.

battering ram
So you got a single target melee knockdown on 36 sec CD.

Elixir B
Or you have 13 sec of swiftness, 13 sec of retaliation, 3 stack of might for about 20 sec, a stack of fury for 13 sec and one condition removal. On a 32 sec CD.

It might be a personal opinion, but the knockback isn’t worth it for me.

Kardiamond.6952:

Please give me an example as something that is lackluster, is there anything the engineer lacks?

I think our turrets need a lot of work. I think our elite skills—especially Mortar—need a lot of love too.

And as I already said, I think gadgets need their cooldowns reduced.

Yes gadgets need more love too. Not only are most mediocre/bad, they only have one trait. That reduces cd by 20%.

Its not wonder people rarely, if ever, use them.

I don’t understand how the number of traits has anything to do with how good a skill is.

Mine Field can potentially remove five boons on your target. How is that mediocre/bad?

Throw Mine is a bit different than the other gadgets as it has been the focus of many buffs and fixes. It also has four traits that support it because it counts as an explosion and a gadget (adds vulnerability, 10% explosion damage, lower cooldown, and larger blast radius). All the other gadgets can use some love like that.

@Phineas Poe

Did you try it?

I ran Throw mine for a week. What I found out :

- Mine field + Wider range on explosion = Big burst of damage.Wich is really good.

- Mine field cooldown is bugged and doesn’t go down with points in tool.

- Mine field Boon removal seems to be unreliable. I would use it and it would not always remove the boon, even if it’s hits. I woulod have to make more test to confirm it.

- Removing boon is good, but they seems to come back even faster. Especially since you had to be in melee range to use it.

Minefield impressed me with damage, but not with boon removal. It wasn’t as good as expected.

And I couldn’t use mine field without instant blowing it, because only blind player would run into those mines.

elixir U + ft 2 = PEW PEW!!

nakoda.4213:

elixir U + ft 2 = PEW PEW!!

Why would you use elixir U just to use ft 2 ..?

who said anything about using it just for ft 2?

all i said was elixir U + ft 2 = PEW PEW!! … cuz it’s true. that’s assonance for you too. hoo hoo!