Guild Wars 2

Saw this in another thread for DPS tiers:

Top tier (15k+): Elementalist
High tier (13-15k): Engineer, Thief
Mid tier (11-13k): Warrior
Low tier (<11k): Necromancer, Guardian, Ranger
Situationally anywhere tier: Mesmer

And I think that’s a pretty fair way to break it down. I don’t think it really changes the ultimate conclusion I originally stated which was “necro is 2nd worst, maybe third” which is perfectly supported by data.

Engineer is 2nd highest DPS? Anyone care to explain, please? Thanks!

I’d like to believe we are first DPS.
I’ve been playing engineer since beta.
we have a beautiful “JUMP KILL COMBO”
and it’s still working regardless of this old video.
And try playing with Rocket

Static Discharge
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YFU2i3BJoE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEt_a77_hfo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMyN3hclRjk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl6z-RjPUGg

^_^

My guess would be the might stack/bombs or nades one.

PvE or WvW or PvP? I guess if someone is making a dps thread it’s all about PvE and yea, I pretty much beleve we are top tier. Why? Well – WE are the reason the party has 25 stacks vulnerability ON EVERY enemy. Even if it’s a single one, it’s obviously a boss fight where vuln stacks run out faster and we shine aswell. The damage dealt by the whole team wich is increased by our vulnerability is OUR dps. Also the damage dealt by bomb 1 is only a bit weaker than 100b, however at even 4 and especially 5 enemies our damage is higher than everyone. Only FGS can outdamage us then. But well, I probably gotta be quiet otherwise anet pulls out the Nerf-Guns …

There’s not much to explain. Engineer sustained DPS is very high and that’s before you count DPS contribution through party-wide buffs. They also have very good personal buff stacking but I wasn’t counting that in the numbers you quote.

In case you were wondering what the build I reference is, it’s a 6/6/0/0/2 Grenade/Rifle build with relevant DPS traits (Shrapnel, Explosive Powder, Modified Ammunition, etc.) and Static Discharge. Your utilities should be Grenade Kit (obviously), Bomb Kit, and Throw Mine. You can replace Bomb Kit with Elixir Gun for slightly more DPS, or replace Throw Mine with it if you don’t mind losing the extra vuln stacks and the E-Gun’s defensive skills are helpful for you.

In general the engineer’s biggest issues mostly have to do with the fact that most people either just don’t know how to DPS with them or they don’t really know how to measure DPS. I just saw some guy tell me I was wrong about necromancer DPS (I think it’s from the thread you just quoted actually) because his Ghastly Claws hits for 12k, never mind that it’s a 3-second channel and on a 8-second cooldown and you do next to nothing with your autoattack. By comparison Grenade usually hits about 2.5k-3k per so people like that will see it and think “oh engineer DPS is only around that much, my Ghastly Claws hits way more” never mind that you can throw something like 40 grenades in the time it takes for him to do one Ghastly Claws.

Ele is best dps because of FGS and that skill is on edge of exploiting. But personaly agree we are 2nd:-)

Anyone have videos of our second highest DPS in action? I wanna learn this.

Also, if we’re second highest DPS, why is it we’re still relatively middle on the class tier? (Below Warriors, Guardian, Elementalist, and Thief?)

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

There’s not much to explain. Engineer sustained DPS is very high and that’s before you count DPS contribution through party-wide buffs. They also have very good personal buff stacking but I wasn’t counting that in the numbers you quote.

In case you were wondering what the build I reference is, it’s a 6/6/0/0/2 Grenade/Rifle build with relevant DPS traits (Shrapnel, Explosive Powder, Modified Ammunition, etc.) and Static Discharge. Your utilities should be Grenade Kit (obviously), Bomb Kit, and Throw Mine. You can replace Bomb Kit with Elixir Gun for slightly more DPS, or replace Throw Mine with it if you don’t mind losing the extra vuln stacks and the E-Gun’s defensive skills are helpful for you.

In general the engineer’s biggest issues mostly have to do with the fact that most people either just don’t know how to DPS with them or they don’t really know how to measure DPS. I just saw some guy tell me I was wrong about necromancer DPS (I think it’s from the thread you just quoted actually) because his Ghastly Claws hits for 12k, never mind that it’s a 3-second channel and on a 8-second cooldown and you do next to nothing with your autoattack. By comparison Grenade usually hits about 2.5k-3k per so people like that will see it and think “oh engineer DPS is only around that much, my Ghastly Claws hits way more” never mind that you can throw something like 40 grenades in the time it takes for him to do one Ghastly Claws.

If we replace Bomb Kit, what happens to our fire field? GASP You can’t honestly expect others to use a fire field, can they?

Understandably, it can be difficult for players to fathom that engineers can have higher dps than both warriors and guardians. Even with the modest bursts attainable with #3 and #5 skill on the rifle or bob, you will never see any engineer build capable of producing such high numbers as with 100b or eviscerate. With a proper rotation engineers using a rifle/nade/bomb 6/6/0/0/2 build can maintain, 9 stacks of might, 18-25 stacks of vuln on elite foes and below, and ~1k bleeding ticks allowing them to have significantly more sustained dps than any warrior. However, in dungeons warrior burst dmg will still be more valuable (not sure if this is the same case for guards) for clearing mobs , but on champs/bosses (longer fights) engis shine.

So if we’re only considering sustained dps, it is accurate that engis are above guards and warriors. Why don’t the “top spreed clearing” guilds utilize engis in their dungeon runs? That is because the bulk of time in dungeons is spent on clearing trash mobs where quick bursts of dmg are more practical. Additionally, everything else that engis bring to a party can be achieved by other professions (might stacks, vuln, stacks, party-wide condi removal, etc).

Kain Francois.4328:

Anyone have videos of our second highest DPS in action? I wanna learn this.

Also, if we’re second highest DPS, why is it we’re still relatively middle on the class tier? (Below Warriors, Guardian, Elementalist, and Thief?)

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

There’s not much to explain. Engineer sustained DPS is very high and that’s before you count DPS contribution through party-wide buffs. They also have very good personal buff stacking but I wasn’t counting that in the numbers you quote.

In case you were wondering what the build I reference is, it’s a 6/6/0/0/2 Grenade/Rifle build with relevant DPS traits (Shrapnel, Explosive Powder, Modified Ammunition, etc.) and Static Discharge. Your utilities should be Grenade Kit (obviously), Bomb Kit, and Throw Mine. You can replace Bomb Kit with Elixir Gun for slightly more DPS, or replace Throw Mine with it if you don’t mind losing the extra vuln stacks and the E-Gun’s defensive skills are helpful for you.

In general the engineer’s biggest issues mostly have to do with the fact that most people either just don’t know how to DPS with them or they don’t really know how to measure DPS. I just saw some guy tell me I was wrong about necromancer DPS (I think it’s from the thread you just quoted actually) because his Ghastly Claws hits for 12k, never mind that it’s a 3-second channel and on a 8-second cooldown and you do next to nothing with your autoattack. By comparison Grenade usually hits about 2.5k-3k per so people like that will see it and think “oh engineer DPS is only around that much, my Ghastly Claws hits way more” never mind that you can throw something like 40 grenades in the time it takes for him to do one Ghastly Claws.

If we replace Bomb Kit, what happens to our fire field? GASP You can’t honestly expect others to use a fire field, can they?

There’s a few reasons why engies are considered “middle tier”, as you call it:

1) When it comes to straight DPS, there’s no reason to take anything other than an ele.

2) When it comes to support, banners and EA plus might blasting tend to be sufficient.

3) The engineer’s sustained vuln stacking is amazing but most bosses can be bursted down quickly with FGS before it becomes an issue and most people can deal with losing 10-15% DPS against the ones that can’t.

4) There are very few competent engie players even in the pro speedclear guilds (see: rT_tries_run_engie_in_arah_and_wipes_repeatedly.flv) and even the good ones have to admit that while it’s fun for setting a record, when you’re running 5-6 paths a day, you really don’t want to put a ton of effort into a risky class with a high margin for error when you can AFK with a hammer guardian.

5) Even the speedrun “meta” takes a long time to catch onto things. It’s one thing to theorycraft a good build but another to practice it enough to make it work. See also #4.

That said I don’t think anyone seriously disputes that engie is extremely strong, a lot of the “engie is bad for speedruns” thing is more of a “an ele would still be 1-2% more overall DPS here” thing. In any comp that’s not being strictly minmaxed to perfection the engie will be a significant buff due to high competitive DPS and massive vuln stacking.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

you really don’t want to put a ton of effort into a risky class with a high margin for error when you can AFK with a hammer guardian.

And this is whole class chosing problem in nutshell. While other classes spam one button we play on piano to achieve same results. High risk needs high reward. Engi has high risk but no high reward.

I’d say the risk is plenty proportional to the reward.

Rozbuska.5263:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

you really don’t want to put a ton of effort into a risky class with a high margin for error when you can AFK with a hammer guardian.

And this is whole class chosing problem in nutshell. While other classes spam one button we play on piano to achieve same results. High risk needs high reward. Engi has high risk but no high reward.

This, I find myself just flying around my hotkeys trying to get things done…I am not complaining because I LOVE this class but after playing this class nothing else is even fun? (ele is just as bad).

Love the pic btw, that pretty much sums it up! It does feel like we are playing a piano, and you have to have a lot of situation awareness just so you dont blast yourself off things too hehe.

FGS only has high DPS situationally. You use it against a mobile and normal sized boss with no nearby walls and watch DPS plummet drastically. For that matter any other ele skill.

I don’t know about you guys but I think the “high risk high reward” is pretty ok at the engi. The damage we deal is great, nothing like a necro or mesmer, we have like the best auto attack ingame (bomb / grenade). It’s not the damage wich is rewarding us for playing piano, it’s the flexibility that we are able to do what every class can do too, like condi cleanse, reflect, stack might, stack vuln, stack stealth. We only lack in stability and that we only have a few reflecion skills, however if I had to choose one class for the whole game to play, it’s the engineer. If you say “other classes are better at X or Y” it’s just means they are easier to play (except for the flaws i mentioned) or about FGS.

just a few reflects you say?
Elixir U and shield work quite nicely in dungeons.
Yes, I’m running 6/6/0/x/x p/s in dungeons, but on a berserk build. elixir U gives me the stunbreaker + quickness I need and dropping it either perma blinds and blocks projectiles or clears condis and reflects. From p/s I get a 3sec reflect, an additional blind, a chain-cc for destacking defiance and a blast finisher. And cycling in #2 and #3 from pistol is quite awesome for getting a stable dmg-buff from mod.ammo.
The rest of the build is the usual nades / BK spaming.

2 reflects with such a high cd ARE just a few reflects. compare it with the mesmer or guard, we lack there. shield is a must in dungeons, there is almost no big adventage to take the rifle over the shield in a dungeon. pistol 3 is awesome too, however bomb1 is almost the same dmg than the rifle burst, also blunderbuss only hits 3 targets afaik.

i wouldn’t suggest to use elixier U mainly, it’s more a situational pick. elixier gun offers more, especially a stunbreak and blast finisher, not to forget the condi cleanse. or simply mine for dmg, vuln stacks and finisher.

I don’t like EG in dungeons. It is great for pvp or wvw, but otherwise… meh. #2 usually hits the boss once and then bounces around in the stack and gives useless swiftness. #3 gives 5 vuln-stacks, but the long channel time makes it inferior to simply spamming nades auto during that time. #4 is a nice short burst, but its channel time and the potential to break the stack unjustifies it. #5 CAN be a live-saver but when you meet a situation where it could be, it’s mostly not.
Taking elixir U instead for dungeons just feels natural, especially since its “situational” for almost all encounters you can think of.

Arantheal.7396:

I don’t like EG in dungeons. (…) #4 is a nice short burst, but its channel time and the potential to break the stack unjustifies it.

You can cancel the self-push back of EG #4 (if that’s what you mean by channel time) by swapping weapons/dropping bundles.

Arantheal.7396:

I don’t like EG in dungeons. It is great for pvp or wvw, but otherwise… meh. #2 usually hits the boss once and then bounces around in the stack and gives useless swiftness. #3 gives 5 vuln-stacks, but the long channel time makes it inferior to simply spamming nades auto during that time. #4 is a nice short burst, but its channel time and the potential to break the stack unjustifies it. #5 CAN be a live-saver but when you meet a situation where it could be, it’s mostly not.
Taking elixir U instead for dungeons just feels natural, especially since its “situational” for almost all encounters you can think of.

This post reads like the pure essence of hating the EG or simple never used it or just don’t understand it.

2 is rarely good, yet at places where you face sometimes an enemy alone it’s a good damage spike. But in general useless.

3 is a condi cleanse. You are not supposed to attack the enemy with it, rather using it on your alles to cure them from like mai thrins 10 stacks of bleeding or the surely coming up mortem torment stackers etc. There are enough places where conditions bother you and your allies, especially guards, eles and thiefs suffer from even a few stacks of damaging conditions.

4 is a combo finisher and suposed to use when there is a fire field, likely your own one. As already mentioned just cancel the jump. The skill hits for up to 25k full buffed 5 enemies and stacks vulnerability well too.

5 initial heal can still become quite handy, especially in fotm at dangerious enemies like the grawlboss.

Elixir U’s toolbelt skill works fine as a block but it is unreliable for when you want the reflect for actual damage, i.e. agaisnt Lupicus or Stargazer. It’s fine for when you’re just using it to negate attacks that don’t really add that much DPS though, like COE Golem or Alphard. It really depends on the situation, a bomb engie with reflecting turrets and Elixir U can swap on the fly to fill in for a guardian or a mesmer in some cases and give better DPS, but it’s situational.

And yes, Elixir Gun is good, it gives a stunbreak and a strong burst damage skill that also doubles as a blast finisher. Mine Field is a bit better for minmaxing DPS is practice since you can actually see the recharge on it at all times, but Acid Bomb/Elixir Gun just offers more overall utility. Don’t use the cripple shot or the Fumigate obviously.

Xyonon.3987:

Arantheal.7396:

I don’t like EG in dungeons. It is great for pvp or wvw, but otherwise… meh. #2 usually hits the boss once and then bounces around in the stack and gives useless swiftness. #3 gives 5 vuln-stacks, but the long channel time makes it inferior to simply spamming nades auto during that time. #4 is a nice short burst, but its channel time and the potential to break the stack unjustifies it. #5 CAN be a live-saver but when you meet a situation where it could be, it’s mostly not.
Taking elixir U instead for dungeons just feels natural, especially since its “situational” for almost all encounters you can think of.

This post reads like the pure essence of hating the EG or simple never used it or just don’t understand it.

2 is rarely good, yet at places where you face sometimes an enemy alone it’s a good damage spike. But in general useless.

3 is a condi cleanse. You are not supposed to attack the enemy with it, rather using it on your alles to cure them from like mai thrins 10 stacks of bleeding or the surely coming up mortem torment stackers etc. There are enough places where conditions bother you and your allies, especially guards, eles and thiefs suffer from even a few stacks of damaging conditions.

4 is a combo finisher and suposed to use when there is a fire field, likely your own one. As already mentioned just cancel the jump. The skill hits for up to 25k full buffed 5 enemies and stacks vulnerability well too.

5 initial heal can still become quite handy, especially in fotm at dangerious enemies like the grawlboss.

Welp, maybe it reads in that way, but I actually love EG in wvw or pvp. But since I run fractals only with my guild-group that is golden on the overall utility part already I rather switch to toolkit or Mines than to EG.

Quite honestly they should fix the FGS exploit. Dungeon running used to be so much more fun without the “must have Ele” mindset.

They fixed it with blink so I think they know the issue and are about to fix the wallstacking FGS too. However I beleve that it’s hard to find a fix wich makes it not completly useless. Its the same as the warrior GS whirl or the mesmer iZerker. They need a cap how many hits they can take max.

Engie has the hardest DPS rotation in the game so any of the Axe warriors won’t switch to the engineer. To remember and do perfect rotation you need TONS and TONS of practice. As people say we are on 6/6/0/0/2 MA spec. Rotation is:

BoB -> Fire Bomb -> Granade Barrage -> Throw minex2 -> Minefieldx2 -> Blundersbuss -> Jumpshot -> Shrapnel Granade -> Freeze Granade -> 4x Granade -> Shrapnel -> 2x Granade -> Blundersbuss -> 2x Granade -> Shapnel Granage -> 3x Granade -> Mine Field x2 -> Blunderbuss -> Jump Shot -> Repeat

If S/D hammer ele thought their rotation is hard they will quickly change their mind.
Peace!

If you don’t get to have conflicts on conditions with one of your teammates, a near full celestial engineer specced in 6/6/x/x/x will cause massive damage with a proper rotation, you get to deal very good condition damage and you get a huge direct damage boost to the targets you spam the conditions on. It also has a funny DPS rotation against large mobs:

Spray conditions with grenades > Jump Shot > Acid Spray back to safety. Free to you to add anything in there to spice the rotation.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

3) The engineer’s sustained vuln stacking is amazing but most bosses can be bursted down quickly with FGS before it becomes an issue and most people can deal with losing 10-15% DPS against the ones that can’t.

…

That said I don’t think anyone seriously disputes that engie is extremely strong, a lot of the “engie is bad for speedruns” thing is more of a “an ele would still be 1-2% more overall DPS here” thing. In any comp that’s not being strictly minmaxed to perfection the engie will be a significant buff due to high competitive DPS and massive vuln stacking.

Can you explain this to me? These two statements seem like they contradict each other.

Why would a “strictly minmaxing” dungeon group be okay with 10-15% less damage because they don’t have an Engineer against certain bosses, but not want to take one in the first place at the risk of a 1-2% DPS loss?

Adamantium.3682:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

3) The engineer’s sustained vuln stacking is amazing but most bosses can be bursted down quickly with FGS before it becomes an issue and most people can deal with losing 10-15% DPS against the ones that can’t.

…

That said I don’t think anyone seriously disputes that engie is extremely strong, a lot of the “engie is bad for speedruns” thing is more of a “an ele would still be 1-2% more overall DPS here” thing. In any comp that’s not being strictly minmaxed to perfection the engie will be a significant buff due to high competitive DPS and massive vuln stacking.

Can you explain this to me? These two statements seem like they contradict each other.

Why would a “strictly minmaxing” dungeon group be okay with 10-15% less damage because they don’t have an Engineer against certain bosses, but not want to take one in the first place at the risk of a 1-2% DPS loss?

It’s primarily a strict numbers game. For example, a lot of the bosses in Arah have a fair bit of health and take a while to burn through. Engie COULD burn through them slightly faster thanks to having more vuln but having an extra ele makes the run through much more flexible as to the ones that can be Fiery Rushed in exchange for taking slightly longer on the maybe one or two bosses that can’t and the trash mobs that will die in 5 seconds anyway.

Makes sense. I’ve never understood the minmax speed clearing crowd, but to each their own!