Engineeers...what to do with them
Last time I checked p/p kit engi is one of the highest dps specs in the game if played properly.
Sanity is for the weak minded.
YouTube
YouTube
I feel like my Engineer is very effective and it’s game play is flawless.
Sounds like the Engineer class is not for you.
It would be nice if the Engineers were improved. They aren’t very effective, and their game-play is a bit dull. The only time I had a use for mine was the engi-farm in Lake Doric. That was short-lived, not surprising, but at least I had a use for mine.
For long range, turrets were the only useful weapon, but they are short-lived. Rifle doesn’t do much. Grenades, etc and such only work for relatively stationary targets – they take too long to recharge, like the Ele scepter skill #2, Dragon’s Tooth. Only useful if you can anticipate where the target is moving. Very limited application.
Even the elite skills are: mortars (same issues as grenades). Elixir…funny but not overly useful. More turrets. Charzooka….only if knockback is “good idea” – fairly limited considering its an elite.
What I liked about the engi-farm? I had an application for my engineer. Well, in engineer parlance…back to the drawing board.
The most complaints I’ve heard is the engie doesn’t feel much like s power house or a awesome character that gunswings rifle or dw. I have tried one myself and to be honest it was unimpressive. I’ve also never seen snow engine using the hammer.
Engineer has problems but turrets aren’t it.
The real problem engineer has is the fact that kits are better in every situation because they are the generalist tool for the generalist class.
Also, you’ll never see hammer after it got gutted due to PvP. For some reason 3 leaps and 3sec Block was too much. Then they had to nerf the hammer specific scrapper trait because ???? Yeah, i have no idea either.
Of all the professions played, I see few engi’s. And, I don’t remember the last p/p engi – most of the engi’s I see r turrets. But then, I don’t see many engi’s. I don’t think they are that popular because of their limitations.
Engineer has problems but turrets aren’t it.
The real problem engineer has is the fact that kits are better in every situation because they are the generalist tool for the generalist class.
This.
We’re still severely hamstrung by kits. Our core weapons are underwhelming without assistance from kits (protip to ANet: Reverse the trend, and buff the hell out of our core weapons and reduce kit effectiveness). This limits our builds massively (practically requiring kits), making them significantly more complicated and less fun.
Last time I checked p/p kit engi is one of the highest dps specs in the game if played properly.
Don’t mistake benchmark tests for reality. Watch those benchmark tests and tell me you can reproduce them in a real gameplay scenario.
The other thing I would point out is to not miss the forest for the trees. Most other classes have options with build design on the high end (particularly warriors), while we’re mostly limited to 2 builds in high-end PvE and 1 build in PvP.
The great god Lagki demands sacrifice.
(edited by Vagrant.7206)
Engineer has problems but turrets aren’t it.
The real problem engineer has is the fact that kits are better in every situation because they are the generalist tool for the generalist class.
This.
We’re still severely hamstrung by kits. Our core weapons are underwhelming without assistance from kits (protip to ANet: Reverse the trend, and buff the hell out of our core weapons and reduce kit effectiveness). This limits our builds massively (practically requiring kits), making them significantly more complicated and less fun.
Last time I checked p/p kit engi is one of the highest dps specs in the game if played properly.
Don’t mistake benchmark tests for reality. Watch those benchmark tests and tell me you can reproduce them in a real gameplay scenario.
The other thing I would point out is to not miss the forest for the trees. Most other classes have options with build design on the high end (particularly warriors), while we’re mostly limited to 2 builds in high-end PvE and 1 build in PvP.
Well if benchmark isn’t reality, then this applies to all classes. And Engineer would still be one of the top dps.
Engineer has problems but turrets aren’t it.
The real problem engineer has is the fact that kits are better in every situation because they are the generalist tool for the generalist class.
This.
We’re still severely hamstrung by kits. Our core weapons are underwhelming without assistance from kits (protip to ANet: Reverse the trend, and buff the hell out of our core weapons and reduce kit effectiveness). This limits our builds massively (practically requiring kits), making them significantly more complicated and less fun.
Last time I checked p/p kit engi is one of the highest dps specs in the game if played properly.
Don’t mistake benchmark tests for reality. Watch those benchmark tests and tell me you can reproduce them in a real gameplay scenario.
The other thing I would point out is to not miss the forest for the trees. Most other classes have options with build design on the high end (particularly warriors), while we’re mostly limited to 2 builds in high-end PvE and 1 build in PvP.
Well if benchmark isn’t reality, then this applies to all classes. And Engineer would still be one of the top dps.
That’s not what i think he means though.
Take class A with 5% more dps than class B in static large target benchmark.
Class A depends on a 20 skill rotation with situational combos, narrow persistent aoes with long cooldowns and few stunbreaks/blocks and little mobility
Class B depends on a autoattack chain with a heavy hit every now and then and got higher mobility and more blocks/stunbreaks than class A.
Against a target that moves around, spawns aoes you need to get in/out off and with large attacks that can be blocked it is very much possible for class B to realistically and reliably be ahead of class B because there is only so much you are loosing out if you miss an auto attack, while the target might just waltz out of a key aoe of A.
The more complex and situational the bigger the difference between benchmark and actual result as a rule.
Engineer has problems but turrets aren’t it.
The real problem engineer has is the fact that kits are better in every situation because they are the generalist tool for the generalist class.
This.
We’re still severely hamstrung by kits. Our core weapons are underwhelming without assistance from kits (protip to ANet: Reverse the trend, and buff the hell out of our core weapons and reduce kit effectiveness). This limits our builds massively (practically requiring kits), making them significantly more complicated and less fun.
Last time I checked p/p kit engi is one of the highest dps specs in the game if played properly.
Don’t mistake benchmark tests for reality. Watch those benchmark tests and tell me you can reproduce them in a real gameplay scenario.
The other thing I would point out is to not miss the forest for the trees. Most other classes have options with build design on the high end (particularly warriors), while we’re mostly limited to 2 builds in high-end PvE and 1 build in PvP.
Well if benchmark isn’t reality, then this applies to all classes. And Engineer would still be one of the top dps.
As Mirifrost pointed out, we have one of the most complicated DPS rotations of any class (at least condi does). Several of our core damage-dealing skills have long cooldowns and static placements. Add in projectile flight times (IE Grenades) and we’ll miss a significant chunk of our DPS if the target is moving or fighting back.
Contrast this with, say, a thief, which can land almost all of its DPS pretty consistently, and it becomes clear that we will be outmatched in DPS in most real world scenarios.
This is why I run a modified condi build — not because it’s better DPS-wise (in benchmarks, it’s considerably worse than the ideal benchmark), but because it accounts for reality (I get DPS above most other people I’m playing with).
The great god Lagki demands sacrifice.
(edited by Vagrant.7206)
Engineer has problems but turrets aren’t it.
The real problem engineer has is the fact that kits are better in every situation because they are the generalist tool for the generalist class.
This.
We’re still severely hamstrung by kits. Our core weapons are underwhelming without assistance from kits (protip to ANet: Reverse the trend, and buff the hell out of our core weapons and reduce kit effectiveness). This limits our builds massively (practically requiring kits), making them significantly more complicated and less fun.
Last time I checked p/p kit engi is one of the highest dps specs in the game if played properly.
Don’t mistake benchmark tests for reality. Watch those benchmark tests and tell me you can reproduce them in a real gameplay scenario.
The other thing I would point out is to not miss the forest for the trees. Most other classes have options with build design on the high end (particularly warriors), while we’re mostly limited to 2 builds in high-end PvE and 1 build in PvP.
Well if benchmark isn’t reality, then this applies to all classes. And Engineer would still be one of the top dps.
That’s not what i think he means though.
Take class A with 5% more dps than class B in static large target benchmark.
Class A depends on a 20 skill rotation with situational combos, narrow persistent aoes with long cooldowns and few stunbreaks/blocks and little mobility
Class B depends on a autoattack chain with a heavy hit every now and then and got higher mobility and more blocks/stunbreaks than class A.
Against a target that moves around, spawns aoes you need to get in/out off and with large attacks that can be blocked it is very much possible for class B to realistically and reliably be ahead of class B because there is only so much you are loosing out if you miss an auto attack, while the target might just waltz out of a key aoe of A.
The more complex and situational the bigger the difference between benchmark and actual result as a rule.
Sorry but you miscount skillfloor.
Classes have MAX dps as well as dps.
Easier classes can achieve max dps easier.
Meaning the skillfloors are lower.
MEaning the max dps for Engi is higher.
The average dps for Engi is higher per skill floor.
The average dps for most classes with lower skill floor is lower.
The average dps for classes with higher skill floor and higher skill floor dps is higher.
Meaning auto attack classes who can only auto attack and do “X” damage every “X” seconds based on skill is lower, if the auto attack damage per second is lower.
Meaning the skill floor for Engi being a class which is dependant on rotation for high skill floor for high dps, is very high, and the max dps for the skill floor is high, and the max dps for the average player is low.
So an average player with an average rotation with Engi is low dps.
SO an above average Engi player with an above average DPS rotation is equal to the average DPS of the classes with the lower skill floor who auto attack.
So the Engi with the superb dps rotation has much more wiggle room for higher DPS than the classes that can only achieve limited max results with their auto attack.
Meaning the average Engi = below average dps.
The above average Engi = slightly above average dps (compared to max auto attack specs)
The great rotation spec Engi = above all specs.
Sorry you cannot “group” players into classes. Many players are above average. Which is slightly above the average of average auto attackers.
But the auto attackers with cooldowns have a maximum dps which limits them.
Engineers are also limited but these limitations are harder to hit, meaning Engi’s can get to higher dps, albeit harder. Even-so harder doesn’t mean impossible. Many people grind the rotations and a majority of the playerbase can reach the “above average” meta for Raids and fractals. IF they do not, it’s a kick. SO they must or be replaced. It isn’t hard to reach this.
It can be challenging and time consuming but nowhere near impossible, and achievable by the average player.
(edited by Martym.6971)
Benchmarks are as perfect and ideal as it gets if im not mistaken. Its the top guilds providing the absolute most optimized rotation in an ideal environment. Thus, leaving interactions through things like epidemic (EDIT: and if relying on large amounts of confusion or torment vs certain targets) aside you will never beat that unless there is a special burnphase or similar mechanic (or once again non buff teammate interactions such as epidemic if you count your spread condis as your dps). That’s just how the benchmark works and why i find it silly to stare oneself blind on them. Even the “realistic” buffset is highly idealistic.
Its the idea of the roof, not the floor. Its not realistic and to be frank if it was then the raids and similar content are probably way to easy given that you play like it was a static passive golem with perfect boon up-time (meaning no dodging attacks, no play mechanic, nada, zilch).
This is just discussing the concept of what a benchmark is, and also what that means for different kinds of builds (depending on persistent aoes, combos etc).
Believe me i do like the nature of the condi engineer, and i find power bomb engi to be an embarrassment (A and B where left blank for a reason btw). But i will also be realistic.
(edited by miriforst.1290)
It can be challenging and time consuming but nowhere near impossible, and achievable by the average player.
Compare this:
to this:
And tell me you can achieve the same DPS reasonably. Even if you’re somehow perfect in your rotation and placement and have no lag (which is a lot of assumptions), the fight relies on movement. Our high DPS builds rely on targets being stationary (or mostly stationary).
This isn’t about making assumptions about player skill level. This is about the very mechanics of the combat — DPS reliant on stationary enemies will drop significantly if those enemies move. And that’s ignoring perfectly timing your rotation, your placement of AoE’s, projectile flight times, etc.
As mirifrost said: Benchmarks are the roof, not the floor. And the floor for most of the other classes is a lot higher than ours, just by their combat mechanics. We have to put in a lot more skill to even reach the same level of DPS of a much simpler class. We have to be absolutely perfect (and I’m not being hyperbolic) to outperform them in the way benchmarks suggest we can.
This is why benchmark DPS comparisons are not useful. Benchmarks look at our upper bounds, not at the realm of normal playability.
The great god Lagki demands sacrifice.
(edited by Vagrant.7206)
It would be nice if the Engineers were improved. They aren’t very effective, and their game-play is a bit dull.
It might help the discussion if you qualified what you mean by ‘game-play is a bit dull’. If we ignore HoT for a moment and look at the engie and its playstyle/design concept from launch, engie is a very active playstyle and is more complex then other professions. Engie had access to nearly every combo field and numerous blast finisher options (google up a vid of engie might stacking or stealthing for old dungeon and fractal vids). Most of engie’s skill fall more towards the skill shot end of the spectrum versus just hit button and get result. Some examples here would be nades (original motor kit was an absolute piece of stationary garbage) and elixirs needing to be aimed to account for target movement and projectile flight time. Bigger hits from grenade barrage, pry bar or jump shot required set up to get them to connect (especially against human opponents). Engie also had a skill queuing and drop kit which lead to additional combos – the infamous ‘100-nades’ build relied of this mechanical interaction (magnet pull + queue grenade barrage partway through the pull channel + drop kit as the pull finishes to proc another grenade barrage from stream lined kits). Engie with kits plays a bit like an ele without the attunement swap cd. This allows for a very high flexibility for the player to pick the right skill for the situation, rather than other professions that are locked into or out of weapons or attunements after switching.
Granted all of the above matter much more when fighting human opponents in the pre-HoT landscape where there were significantly less brain dead passives and skills that were good at too many things at once.
For long range, turrets were the only useful weapon, but they are short-lived. Rifle doesn’t do much. Grenades, etc and such only work for relatively stationary targets – they take too long to recharge, like the Ele scepter skill #2, Dragon’s Tooth. Only useful if you can anticipate where the target is moving. Very limited application.
Engie is not and has never been a ‘long range class’. By design engineer was setup to play most effectively just outside of melee range. The flight time and spread of the projectiles made grenades much less effective out at their max range. Again going back to pre-HoT, look at the mechanical options at your disposal. There are loads of options for kiting (soft cc, blocks, knockbacks). Skills have baked in bonuses for being in close (blow torch, blunderbuss). These aspects all shine much more in the context of pvp (and pre-HoT). HoT added options to play fully in melee range (hammer is melee, gyros are just mobile defensive turrets, even rune of the Scrapper is a passive dmg reduction to attacks that are made in close proximity, etc etc).
Even the elite skills are: mortars (same issues as grenades). Elixir…funny but not overly useful. More turrets. Charzooka….only if knockback is “good idea” – fairly limited considering its an elite.
The motar kit was added to remove some pressure from running grenade kit. If you look at the dmg numbers between the two the motar kit is in the ball park but as its not multi-hit it is less damage than grenades due to on-crit procs (vuln, bleed). In exchange you get combo fields with a 100% projectile finisher on the auto attack and a blast and fairly big hit from the toolbelt. This was something that needed to happen and you’d really probably only understand if you played engie at that time in the game’s life. Engie nade kit was the only auto attack in the game that needed be ground target cast – and you threw a lot of grenades. I mean a whole lot of grenades.
The Supply Drop elite in the context of pre-HoT was such a strong elite that it was often a close second behind Moa for incurring massive amounts of rage from opponents. Even against experienced players it was effective as it could be cancelled during the drop animation thus baiting out dodges or defensive cds and making sure it hit when you did full cast it.
What I liked about the engi-farm? I had an application for my engineer. Well, in engineer parlance…back to the drawing board.
Engie’s problems aren’t in the design concept – they lie with having a massive amount of skills and traits that have been left behind with respect to the game’s evolution and power creep, or outright nerfed to make HoT choices/options more appealing.
If you are looking to be able to deliver near 30k dps by doing almost entirely auto attacks, engineer isn’t the profession for you. If you were looking for a profession with a very high skill ceiling, offered the highest amount of player flexibility/creativity, and demanded a high amount of player control/input and most importantly HoT (and the design philosophy that it was based on) was never released; then engie was the profession for you.
What I liked about the engi-farm? I had an application for my engineer. Well, in engineer parlance…back to the drawing board.
Engie’s problems aren’t in the design concept – they lie with having a massive amount of skills and traits that have been left behind with respect to the game’s evolution and power creep, or outright nerfed to make HoT choices/options more appealing.
If you are looking to be able to deliver near 30k dps by doing almost entirely auto attacks, engineer isn’t the profession for you. If you were looking for a profession with a very high skill ceiling, offered the highest amount of player flexibility/creativity, and demanded a high amount of player control/input and most importantly HoT (and the design philosophy that it was based on) was never released; then engie was the profession for you.
Except… we actually have a build for deal 30k with aa, power bomb engie, and you kittening know it.
What I liked about the engi-farm? I had an application for my engineer. Well, in engineer parlance…back to the drawing board.
Engie’s problems aren’t in the design concept – they lie with having a massive amount of skills and traits that have been left behind with respect to the game’s evolution and power creep, or outright nerfed to make HoT choices/options more appealing.
If you are looking to be able to deliver near 30k dps by doing almost entirely auto attacks, engineer isn’t the profession for you. If you were looking for a profession with a very high skill ceiling, offered the highest amount of player flexibility/creativity, and demanded a high amount of player control/input and most importantly HoT (and the design philosophy that it was based on) was never released; then engie was the profession for you.
Except… we actually have a build for deal 30k with aa, power bomb engie, and you kittening know it.
The difference between the two builds is really quite staggering.
One’s perhaps the simplest rotation in the world, and the other is so ludicrously complicated, I’ve never seen it performed in real world scenarios.
The great god Lagki demands sacrifice.
What I liked about the engi-farm? I had an application for my engineer. Well, in engineer parlance…back to the drawing board.
Engie’s problems aren’t in the design concept – they lie with having a massive amount of skills and traits that have been left behind with respect to the game’s evolution and power creep, or outright nerfed to make HoT choices/options more appealing.
If you are looking to be able to deliver near 30k dps by doing almost entirely auto attacks, engineer isn’t the profession for you. If you were looking for a profession with a very high skill ceiling, offered the highest amount of player flexibility/creativity, and demanded a high amount of player control/input and most importantly HoT (and the design philosophy that it was based on) was never released; then engie was the profession for you.
Except… we actually have a build for deal 30k with aa, power bomb engie, and you kittening know it.
The difference between the two builds is really quite staggering.
One’s perhaps the simplest rotation in the world, and the other is so ludicrously complicated, I’ve never seen it performed in real world scenarios.
Well i have.
My guild prefered me in power engi in Slothasor, as that way i wouldnt burn my teammates transformed in sublings (that said, its still totally doable in condi).
KC is other scenario where power engi is prefered, as the phases dont give you the time for ramp up your dps in condi.
Fractal 40 farming is another scenario where power is prefered, as your condi burn skills are negflected with the first boss, and ramps up more faster.
(edited by Ivantreil.3092)
rebuff grenade range plz anet
Buff black chick | Esportsmanship | pref my eggs kicked | big black glock | peekaboo stance
the original dab daddy
the original dab daddy
What I liked about the engi-farm? I had an application for my engineer. Well, in engineer parlance…back to the drawing board.
Engie’s problems aren’t in the design concept – they lie with having a massive amount of skills and traits that have been left behind with respect to the game’s evolution and power creep, or outright nerfed to make HoT choices/options more appealing.
If you are looking to be able to deliver near 30k dps by doing almost entirely auto attacks, engineer isn’t the profession for you. If you were looking for a profession with a very high skill ceiling, offered the highest amount of player flexibility/creativity, and demanded a high amount of player control/input and most importantly HoT (and the design philosophy that it was based on) was never released; then engie was the profession for you.
Except… we actually have a build for deal 30k with aa, power bomb engie, and you kittening know it.
The difference between the two builds is really quite staggering.
One’s perhaps the simplest rotation in the world, and the other is so ludicrously complicated, I’ve never seen it performed in real world scenarios.
Gonna keep sharing this until it gets the attention it deserves but, this much much simpler DPS rotation DOES break 30k on condi without the piano keys aspect:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5z1vtj/cnd_simplify_this_the_one_kit_condi_plebineer/
What I liked about the engi-farm? I had an application for my engineer. Well, in engineer parlance…back to the drawing board.
Engie’s problems aren’t in the design concept – they lie with having a massive amount of skills and traits that have been left behind with respect to the game’s evolution and power creep, or outright nerfed to make HoT choices/options more appealing.
If you are looking to be able to deliver near 30k dps by doing almost entirely auto attacks, engineer isn’t the profession for you. If you were looking for a profession with a very high skill ceiling, offered the highest amount of player flexibility/creativity, and demanded a high amount of player control/input and most importantly HoT (and the design philosophy that it was based on) was never released; then engie was the profession for you.
Except… we actually have a build for deal 30k with aa, power bomb engie, and you kittening know it.
Also, the largest issue with this is the fact that bombs are very stationary to cap out DPS and raid bosses are not necessarily. This can be run on some of them effectively and might even be preferred in a few of those cases where burns get reflected back, but for most is not ideal. You are so on the move in raids that maintaining an effective DPS of 30k is actually much much harder than the previously linked Plebineer.