Guild Wars 2

Just wondering… has there ever been any comment by a dev about the hands down worst downed state in the game?

Considering it is one of the middle to better downed stated, I do not see why they would. Only down states better then ours is Mesmer, Elementalist and Thief.

coglin.1867:

Considering it is one of the middle to better downed stated, I do not see why they would. Only down states better then ours is Mesmer, Elementalist and Thief.

How is it better than war/guard/ranger/necro? The pull can be blocked/blinded/bodyblocked/pulls them closer so they can stomp you faster. 3’s cd is so long you never get to use it due to the 2 being so horrid and even then it’s the equiv of guard 2 + damage.

Warrior can get up and use all his skills to try to rally or kill the opponent after his horrid 2 (at least doesn’t pull them closer).

Guard gets an aoe knockback + heal/damage symbol.

Ranger gets a aoe daze + pet res.

Necro gets a fear (at least it isn’t a projectile and moves the opponent away) + pois (ok that 3 sucks lol).

The 2 is SO bad that the rest doesn’t usually even matter for eng/war…

How is it worse?

Warriors have one single target CC and a temporary rally. The rally is easy to manipulate. We have a single target CC and an AoE CC.

Guardians an AoE heal/damage type symbol that I find near useless and an AoE cc. We have a single target CC and an AoE CC.

Rangers, well, they are too easy to spike. There pet can easily be made useless, and they have one AoE cc. We have a single target CC and an AoE CC.

necro, 1 single target fear. We have a single target CC and an AoE CC.

I feel the abilities we have to CC several opponents has much more value then then abilities that do not prevent you from being spiked.

Aberrant.6749:

How is it better than war/guard/ranger/necro? The pull can be blocked/blinded/bodyblocked/pulls them closer so they can stomp you faster.

This is always my favorite argument. SSo what that our pull can be blocked/blinded, you say that as if that is unique to us. Get real man, this can be an issue for all the professions.

As far as the pull that will interrupt and prevent a stomp. Your really going with the “OMG they got closer” argument. I was really under the impression that the engineer community matured beyond this one already. If you are at the point in which your using Grappling Line to interrupt a stop, you may have noticed they are already in range to um, already stomp you. If you pulled them closer needlessly so they can “stomp you faster” as you put it, then you deserve to be stomped.

coglin.1867:

How is it worse?

Warriors have one single target CC and a temporary rally. The rally is easy to manipulate. We have a single target CC and an AoE CC.

Guardians an AoE heal/damage type symbol that I find near useless and an AoE cc. We have a single target CC and an AoE CC.

Rangers, well, they are too easy to spike. There pet can easily be made useless, and they have one AoE cc. We have a single target CC and an AoE CC.

necro, 1 single target fear. We have a single target CC and an AoE CC.

The problem is that because our single target CC is so horrid the aoe CC hardly even comes into play.

If the rally on war is so easy to manipulate, how isn’t the downed aoe blast of eng even easier?

Guard gets the aoe CC on down and the healing symbol isn’t useless at all (saved my rump many times on my guard).

Ranger pet made useless? It’s another thing they need to deal with on top of you being downed. Again the aoe cc is on down.

As I said before… necro 2 moves them away and isn’t a projectile (agree the 3 sucks).

Vs. multiple opponents a single target projectile cc Vs. the classes that get an aoe cc on downed is better? I highly disagree.

I really don’t understand why there is such a disparity between class downed states when it’s only 3 skills (2,3 are the most important so you could even argue that it’s only 2) over a year into the game.

Well, it depends on which mode, imo. In group fights pvpwise it must be quite good, but it is abysmally bad in PvE. That said it feels like it can be low priority in the chsanges list.

Amethyst Lure.5624:

In group fights pvpwise it must be quite good

Ok this is what happens 99% of the time. You get downed on eng. Two guys come up to stomp, you CC one and get stomped by the other. Or… one guy comes up to the eng stands behind a pet/pebble/whatever and it doesn’t hit the intended target and you get stomped. Etc.

Low on the priority is fine, but after more than a year… come on… at the very least they could swap the 2&3 and reduce/remove the damage on 3 to compensate.

I don’t see why they couldn’t have changed this when they changed ele’s downed…

Thief/Mes/Ele are so far ahead of the others for downed state it’s not even funny. They aren’t even vulnerable to stability/blocks/blind stomps like the rest.

This is a defining feature for this game, I would think they would have taken some more time with making it balanced.

Aberrant.6749:

Ok this is what happens 99% of the time. You get downed on eng. Two guys come up to stomp, you CC one and get stomped by the other. Or… one guy comes up to the eng stands behind a pet/pebble/whatever and it doesn’t hit the intended target and you get stomped. Etc.

99% of the time eh? Hyperbole much? I almost never see the second one, and when 2 players come up to stomp a downed player, you very mistaken if you feel the other professions have a better chance. Well except as we mentioned before, mesmer, ele, and thief, because they can essentially teleport.

coglin.1867:

Aberrant.6749:

Ok this is what happens 99% of the time. You get downed on eng. Two guys come up to stomp, you CC one and get stomped by the other. Or… one guy comes up to the eng stands behind a pet/pebble/whatever and it doesn’t hit the intended target and you get stomped. Etc.

99% of the time eh? Hyperbole much? I almost never see the second one, and when 2 players come up to stomp a downed player, you very mistaken if you feel the other professions have a better chance. Well except as we mentioned before, mesmer, ele, and thief, because they can essentially teleport.

The aoe CC actually has a chance to delay them… at the least it’ll make them do something like pop a block/blind/stability.

Sorry for not saying “the vast majority of the time” instead. Although I don’t think 99% is that far off from how often the eng downed state fails so do anything to help.

I disagree with the Arguments in this thread saying that Engineer downed state is hands down ‘the worst’ in any select game mode. You have to look at the big picture.

It in the first 8 seconds of being downed, there’s really no difference between Engineer, Necro, Guardian, Warrior, Ranger. That’s why I consider the downed state differences to be largely unimportant. However, Thieves, Mesmers, and Eles have the edge by possessing movement abilities. Whether getting out from under a swinging boss, or into the arms of 3 allies waiting to revive, etc.

When you reach the 8 second mark and then there are of course many more imbalances that are introduced. Every 3 skill is highly situational.

• Are you about being revived and trying to overcome minor damage? Well, being a Guardian, or Ranger would really pay.

• Are you about to be stomped/die after exhausting the 2 skill? Well, being a Thief or Engi would really pay.

• Are you in a downed fight, or just want to obliterate a PvE mob to rally? Well, being a Ranger, Mesmer, Necro, or Warrior especially makes you pretty much auto-win.

It’s really complicated. Every profession is great at certain situations. I agree that Engineer and Necro are among the less likely overall to be useful – and the downed state damage of Engi needs to be buffed. (Ranger downed state damage is around 2k per second with pet, that’s only a minor decrease from the regular state.) Vengeance is extremely powerful too, the Pet Revive is near unstoppable, there are some that could use toning down, for sure. But I would be against any drastic changes.

Chaith.8256:

I disagree with the Arguments in this thread saying that Engineer downed state is hands down ‘the worst’ in any select game mode. You have to look at the big picture.

It in the first 8 seconds of being downed, there’s really no difference between Engineer, Necro, Guardian, Warrior, Ranger. That’s why I consider the downed state differences to be largely unimportant. However, Thieves, Mesmers, and Eles have the edge by possessing movement abilities. Whether getting out from under a swinging boss, or into the arms of 3 allies waiting to revive, etc.

When you reach the 8 second mark and then there are of course many more imbalances that are introduced. Every 3 skill is highly situational.

• Are you about being revived and trying to overcome minor damage? Well, being a Guardian, or Ranger would really pay.

• Are you about to be stomped/die after exhausting the 2 skill? Well, being a Thief or Engi would really pay.

• Are you in a downed fight, or just want to obliterate a PvE mob to rally? Well, being a Ranger, Mesmer, Necro, or Warrior especially makes you pretty much auto-win.

It’s really complicated. Every profession is great at certain situations. I agree that Engineer and Necro are among the less likely overall to be useful – and the downed state damage of Engi needs to be buffed. (Ranger downed state damage is around 2k per second with pet, that’s only a minor decrease from the regular state.) Vengeance is extremely powerful too, the Pet Revive is near unstoppable, there are some that could use toning down, for sure. But I would be against any drastic changes.

The big diff is between the aoe cc’s and the single target projectile pulls within the first 8s.

Even vs. the other single target 2’s… War at least knocks them down in place and doesn’t aid them if they are trying to get to you. Necro at least fears them away so they need to run back.

Tbh I could live with the eng 3 skill (although inferior to wars 3 after dealing with the same rubbish), but that single target pull is just pathetic.

It needs something either to improve the 2 or to help more if we do manage to get to 3 to be on par with the other non-mes/thief/ele classes.

Overall I find the downed state balance is horrid and inexcusable at this point in the game..

Aberrant.6749:

Chaith.8256:

I disagree with the Arguments in this thread saying that Engineer downed state is hands down ‘the worst’ in any select game mode. You have to look at the big picture.

It in the first 8 seconds of being downed, there’s really no difference between Engineer, Necro, Guardian, Warrior, Ranger. That’s why I consider the downed state differences to be largely unimportant. However, Thieves, Mesmers, and Eles have the edge by possessing movement abilities. Whether getting out from under a swinging boss, or into the arms of 3 allies waiting to revive, etc.

When you reach the 8 second mark and then there are of course many more imbalances that are introduced. Every 3 skill is highly situational.

• Are you about being revived and trying to overcome minor damage? Well, being a Guardian, or Ranger would really pay.

• Are you about to be stomped/die after exhausting the 2 skill? Well, being a Thief or Engi would really pay.

• Are you in a downed fight, or just want to obliterate a PvE mob to rally? Well, being a Ranger, Mesmer, Necro, or Warrior especially makes you pretty much auto-win.

It’s really complicated. Every profession is great at certain situations. I agree that Engineer and Necro are among the less likely overall to be useful – and the downed state damage of Engi needs to be buffed. (Ranger downed state damage is around 2k per second with pet, that’s only a minor decrease from the regular state.) Vengeance is extremely powerful too, the Pet Revive is near unstoppable, there are some that could use toning down, for sure. But I would be against any drastic changes.

The big diff is between the aoe cc’s and the single target projectile pulls within the first 8s.

Even vs. the other single target 2’s… War at least knocks them down in place and doesn’t aid them if they are trying to get to you. Necro at least fears them away so they need to run back.

Tbh I could live with the eng 3 skill (although inferior to wars 3 after dealing with the same rubbish), but that single target pull is just pathetic.

It needs something either to improve the 2 or to help more if we do manage to get to 3 to be on par with the other non-mes/thief/ele classes.

Overall I find the downed state balance is horrid and inexcusable at this point in the game..

The Engineer downed 2 has pros as well as cons. You only see the cons. I like pulling in foes that are ranged body beating me down so my allies can pound on them. You can pull enemies in, and hit them with the high damage knockback, so there’s synergy. I agree it’s slightly inferior in the first 8 seconds, but personally as long as it prevents my stomper from stomping me, I’m pretty satisfied.

If you’re already near allies and are just getting ranged by one guy within the range of the pull, then they will probably get you up anyways. It’s also very obvious and pretty slow moving at that kind of range (just like how scorp wire is easy to avoid).

It doesn’t stop the first stomp that the vast majority of the time and it’s situational for when the pull wouldn’t be potentially harmful. That’s the big problem with it.

Every class but engi can, by traits, pimp their downed state. Example: mesmer prismatic understanding, phantasm damage, 33% confusion. Guardian: symbols heal and damage plus two downed traits. War can rally on revenge trained to 100%. Necromimprove their blood thirst. The list goes on and on… But not for engi.

Engis get one bad trait where they drop med kits that don’t help while downed and a pitiful damage increase. Automated response? And nothing else. No other cool ways to improve downed. It’s so bad that if I go downed in pvp wvw I know I’m done if I’m alone. The only fun I’ve had is sigil of air lightning strikes. I better not say that too loud… Anet could take it away from me.

But bump Engi has the worst downed state.

Aberrant.6749:

If you’re already near allies and are just getting ranged by one guy within the range of the pull, then they will probably get you up anyways. It’s also very obvious and pretty slow moving at that kind of range (just like how scorp wire is easy to avoid).

It doesn’t stop the first stomp that the vast majority of the time and it’s situational for when the pull wouldn’t be potentially harmful. That’s the big problem with it.

I can sense that we will be shortly agreeing to disagree – but before let me just say that:

• 1) You say that it doesn’t stop the first stomp the vast majority of the time – I say it has the same success rate among most professions, with an exception to the special kids that play Ele/Mesmer/Thief, who have movement skills. Blind, Stability, Invuln, stealth, or don’t stomp at all. This is the general rule for a reason. That’s why the vast majority don’t work – because people don’t stomp when they know they can’t finish it, generally.

• 2) Using it on enemies from afar is a useful, but situational usage. It does suck that it’s slow from afar, but hey, it’s worked in my favor before. What ends up happening to Engineers is that they use it on an enemy stomping them (melee range.) You claim that it’s useless the majority of the time (gets negated) and you also claim that it is “situational when it wouldn’t be harmful” – IE, harmful most of the time by pulling enemies to you. You play both sides of the coin – “it doesn’t prevent stomps”, as well as “it is harmful most of the time”. It needs to hit to be harmful, haha.

Overall, I feel that there is a lot of over-analysis of the downed state 2 skill – Grappling Hook. Lots of Engineers are unhappy with it, but I think the reality of the situation is that most Engineers should just be like… “meh”.

Chaith.8256:

Aberrant.6749:

If you’re already near allies and are just getting ranged by one guy within the range of the pull, then they will probably get you up anyways. It’s also very obvious and pretty slow moving at that kind of range (just like how scorp wire is easy to avoid).

It doesn’t stop the first stomp that the vast majority of the time and it’s situational for when the pull wouldn’t be potentially harmful. That’s the big problem with it.

I can sense that we will be shortly agreeing to disagree – but before let me just say that:

• 1) You say that it doesn’t stop the first stomp the vast majority of the time – I say it has the same success rate among most professions, with an exception to the special kids that play Ele/Mesmer/Thief, who have movement skills. Blind, Stability, Invuln, stealth, or don’t stomp at all. This is the general rule for a reason. That’s why the vast majority don’t work – because people don’t stomp when they know they can’t finish it, generally.

• 2) Using it on enemies from afar is a useful, but situational usage. It does suck that it’s slow from afar, but hey, it’s worked in my favor before. What ends up happening to Engineers is that they use it on an enemy stomping them (melee range.) You claim that it’s useless the majority of the time (gets negated) and you also claim that it is “situational when it wouldn’t be harmful” – IE, harmful most of the time by pulling enemies to you. You play both sides of the coin – “it doesn’t prevent stomps”, as well as “it is harmful most of the time”. It needs to hit to be harmful, haha.

Overall, I feel that there is a lot of over-analysis of the downed state 2 skill – Grappling Hook. Lots of Engineers are unhappy with it, but I think the reality of the situation is that most Engineers should just be like… “meh”.

Nah I’m right and you’re wrong. This is the internet. :P

I don’t think it’s over analysis, just proper analysis.

As far as success rates vs a single stomper #2 between war/necro/eng yea probably similar and they are all rubbish, but eng is the worst out of the rubbish. Gee let me pull you closer with a long cast so you can deal more damage to me with mele and not give myself any more time to heal >.<

Vs. multiple stompers the classes with aoe 2 is at least as good as the single target and better Vs. multiple (obviously).

Then we have the top 3.

I don’t feel “meh” when I feel totally helpless on the ground on eng, but I’m like “Oh… idc” (vapor form into the keep or back to my group) when I’m on my ele. I’m upset about it both cases by how messed up this current situation is.

The disparity between these 3 sort of tiers is pretty large. A year into the game… why is it still like this? I had a glimmer of hope back when they redid the ele downed skills that they might balance the 3 tiers, but no… seems they just tossed it all aside

Chaith is right guys, it is not significantly different from the other four professions with interrupts on their downed 2. Yeah, guard (and ranger, kind of) have the AoE advantage. Warrior has vengeance which is extremely situational but can be good. Necros honestly have it pretty bad.

In a strict list of effectiveness in the most common PvP situations, engineer’s downed state would land near the bottom of the list, but would not be significantly different from other professions.

Sorry Aberrant, but as far as I am concerned you lost this debate the second you said “hands down the worst”……..that made it very clear you came in here with a very closed mind, and no manner of logical examples or reasoning will even sway your mind.

I mean your OP clearly was not looking for a discussion. It is clear you were here to make statements and rant, expecting everyone to agree with you.

I guess we can agree #2 is one of the bad ones.

What concerns me more though is #1 which is even a lot less usefull most of the time.

Aberrant.6749:

The problem is that because our single target CC is so horrid the aoe CC hardly even comes into play.

Not everyone does only 1v1 situations.

Engineer downed state is god aweful. Elementalist got buffed early after release, and now have some of the better downed states.

You see, a downed state has a single purpose. Try to survive, either by killing something thats low to rally or staying alive as long as possible for help to arrive.

Engineer sucks at both. Some people seem to think 3 is amazing, however the lengthy delay it has makes it rarely if ever available. Either you are dead, or already rallied. By comparison a Thief also has 2 interupts, and both of these are practically guarenteed.

Versus Engineer who has 2 and the first one is countered by everything that can counter an interupt, including standing behind your pet as the projectile needs los. And the 2nd, if you even get to that point which you rarely will, can still be countered by blind, stability, aegis.
Downed state damage is also pitifully weak and rng.

Making the engineers downed state the least suited downed state for the sake of either killing something thats low, or simply lasting as long as possible.

Our down stat damage is weak? I am certain you are making this inaccurate statement out of a complete lack of knowledge. We are actually in the top 3 in damage from downed state skills.

Booby trap is the highest damage down state out of all the professions.

I can agree that the RnG of throw junk is bad, RnG in skills is bad period, but The direct damage is solid and if you have condition damage it does more. But it is no worse then the other professions, and as I said, booby trap is the highest down skill there is.

Perhaps you should actually test this and make comparisons before making blanket statements.

^well i would argue that vengance is potentially the most damaging downed skill if you look at it like that. At least rangers (good rangers…) can petswap to a wolf for example and chain rupt you like a kitten (daze, knockdown,fear, daze is back and so is the rez). For example of damage done in a decent downed state, see mesmer and his decent auto, his hard hitting phantasm and an aoe “interrupt”.

But what determines a pvp fight is who gets stomped first, not who deals a bit more damage (the best damage is the one that gets done) than others in downed state unless you are very, very lucky (and then the engineer is hardly the one with the most dps, especially when you consider that berserker builds aren’t really a engi thing for spvp). And if you get stomped or not depends largely on what your number 2 skill is. And our skill 2 can be countered in so many ways its not even funny. And if it hits, its not like the warrior who at least got a knockdown. Its a short pull. With a long cast. With low damage. It can be blocked, invulned, blinded, reflected, stability ignored, telestomped, stealth stomped. It’s single target.

Hell i rage the most when someone going for the stomp does not even realize that his stupid pet/minion just blocked my chance of surviving that second longer to let the ele (or whatever) who got downed before me (but who gets to sprint like an Olympian while being immune to damage, cc and stomps) get stomped on the (required!) second try and allowing me to rally. Instead i get stomped by his pet taking that bloody toilet paper roll and i rally everyone who is in downed state and in worst case we lose that point. Because a random critter stood in my way.

But someone got to have the worst downed state, might as well be us. ;-P
(seriously though i think the necro downstate is worse, but well-.)

miriforst.1290:

But what determines a pvp fight is who gets stomped first, not who deals a bit more damage

I would argue that in many cases. I have encountered many many cases in which I was in a 1v2 where I downed one player, and had the other one low and they downed me. I spammed my throw junk to finish them off, then after they went down, pulled them to me and booby trap did great damage and allowed me to kill them and rally. I have had this happen even more often in good 1v1.

Now I am not disagreeing with you, preventing spikes is the key. I am just stating often occurring example, so that we do not write off damage value here.

coglin.1867:

I would argue that in many cases. I have encountered many many cases in which I was in a 1v2 where I downed one player, and had the other one low and they downed me. I spammed my throw junk to finish them off, then after they went down, pulled them to me and booby trap did great damage and allowed me to kill them and rally. I have had this happen even more often in good 1v1.

Pulls/knockbacks don’t move downed players, only the “launch” effect will move them.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Pulls/knockbacks don’t move downed players, only the “launch” effect will move them.

Your right. I wasn’t paying close attention to my point, and made a mistake in a rush. Thanks for the correction.

coglin.1867:

Sorry Aberrant, but as far as I am concerned you lost this debate the second you said “hands down the worst”……..that made it very clear you came in here with a very closed mind, and no manner of logical examples or reasoning will even sway your mind.

I mean your OP clearly was not looking for a discussion. It is clear you were here to make statements and rant, expecting everyone to agree with you.

Wait man it’s not like I put my fingers in my ears and went LA LA LA can’t hear you! I’ve given many solid reasons to back up why I think this… and have changed your mind a bit too judging by how you’ve changed your tune about some of it.

Chaith.8256:

It in the first 8 seconds of being downed, there’s really no difference between Engineer, Necro, Guardian, Warrior, Ranger. That’s why I consider the downed state differences to be largely unimportant.

Chaith.8256:

I agree it’s slightly inferior in the first 8 seconds

Slight enlightenment/progress seems to have occurred, but you’re still sticking to your preconceptions that eng downed isn’t the worst in the face of excellent reasoning.

If some one makes a valid point I’m always willing to give it to them. I just haven’t agreed with what you’ve said.

Aberrant.6749:

Wait man it’s not like I put my fingers in my ears and went LA LA LA can’t hear you! I’ve given many solid reasons to back up why I think this… and have changed your mind a bit too judging by how you’ve changed your tune about some of it.

If you say so. I find it interesting how the same poster who stated with absolute aver, that we have " hands down worst downed state in the game", then presume to tell me what my opinion is. I have had all professions to 80 for 9+ months, and 60+ levels of each was done in WvW, I spent plenty of time in each profession to have formed an educated and experienced opinion.

I never suggested you were going " LA LA LA can’t hear you!". I accurately stated that your OP in stating it as you did displayed a complete unwillingness to discuss it or learn from any discussion on it, but that you had an aggravated and angry perspective by stating it as if it were some how fact.

My point was that your original post didn’t appear to desire a discussion, but appeared to be only a rant. So, as I see it, you have no right to make presumptions as to attempt to represent my opinion for me.

I did discuss it and I would yield any points that I thought were valid… I just haven’t seen any. Tbh it seems like you agree with me that it’s the worst #2. It seems as if you think the #3 is so awesome that it makes up for that (which I disagree).

I’ve also plaid all classes in WvW and SPvP… but since the 3 day early release. Idk how that makes the logic behind either of our points inherently valid though? You seem kind of heated, I’ll give you some time to chill.

Aberrant.6749:

As far as success rates vs a single stomper #2 between war/necro/eng yea probably similar and they are all rubbish, but eng is the worst out of the rubbish.

Meh.

Aberrant.6749:

I don’t feel “meh” when I feel totally helpless on the ground on eng.

Meh.

Aberrant.6749:

The disparity between these 3 sort of tiers is pretty large. A year into the game… why is it still like this? I had a glimmer of hope back when they redid the ele downed skills that they might balance the 3 tiers, but no… seems they just tossed it all aside

Aberrant.6749:

Chaith.8256:

It in the first 8 seconds of being downed, there’s really no difference between Engineer, Necro, Guardian, Warrior, Ranger. That’s why I consider the downed state differences to be largely unimportant.

Chaith.8256:

I agree it’s slightly inferior in the first 8 seconds

Slight enlightenment/progress seems to have occurred, but you’re still sticking to your preconceptions that eng downed isn’t the worst in the face of excellent reasoning.

If some one makes a valid point I’m always willing to give it to them. I just haven’t agreed with what you’ve said.

Meh.

In all seriousness, I just worded the first quote wrong. I then believed the Engineer downed state to be .000000005% worse than Necro/War and similar professions in the first 8 seconds. If I had the choice of a telegraphed pull vs a telegraphed fear or telegraphed Knockdown, I think I would struggle and then realize that they are all situationally used, and around the same usefulness. So I didn’t become more ‘enlightened’ as a direct result of your Vulcan logic.

Why don’t you propose some changes to the Engineer downed state so it’s more equal instead of being insignificantly worse?

It’s that insignificant that I am starting to wonder if posting in this thread was worth the keystrokes. Haha.

Live long and prosper.

.000000005% hyperbole much? No hyperboles allowed! lol

IMO every class should have at least an aoe interrupt of some sort on downed. They should have an equal number of even-ish quality stomp escape/prevention mechanics. They could easily be done in different ways to keep the flavor within the class. Why do some get more which are better and others get less which are worse to where there are sort of 3 tiers of downed states? Idk. It doesn’t seem well thought out at all.

This is where the problem lies. You continue to presume your opinion of what skills fall under the more/better and less/worse should be everyone else’s opinion as well, and because you deem one better or worse then the other, that it is a fact.

You keep wanting things your way, and expect the game to adapt to you, when the very core of there design in writing contradicts what you want. For example, the devs have made it very clear that the game and its professions are absolutely not intended to have a 1 to 1 balance comparison between professions. The devs have been extremely open about the fact that they do not specifically or directly balance the professions directly compared to one another, so why would you assume they should all work on a lackluster system of repetitive re-use and re-skinning of the same skills for each profession, over and over, just to give you individually, a personal feel of congruency??

If you can give more reasons why eng is better than the others I wouldn’t mind reading them. I disagree with the ones you’ve listed already.

You misunderstand. I’m not saying everyone should have the same exact skills that behave in the same way or anything. You can have them do different things that have similar end results. I’m suggesting that the minimum effect should be for the #2 skill that it can stop multiple stompers on down. There are ways to achieve this without it all being the same and feeling homogenized (just look at the top 2 sort of tiers and how they differ).

I agree with the 1 to 1 balance comparisons when it comes to skills when alive, but when downed it’s 3 skills (4th is universal)… why is there such a large disparity? If it was slightly different between all classes and some were a little better than others then ok… but there is a huge gap between the 3 sort of tiers.

Aberrant.6749:

If you can give more reasons why eng is better than the others I wouldn’t mind reading them. I disagree with the ones you’ve listed already.

You misunderstand. I’m not saying everyone should have the same exact skills that behave in the same way or anything. You can have them do different things that have similar end results. I’m suggesting that the minimum effect should be for the #2 skill that it can stop multiple stompers on down. There are ways to achieve this without it all being the same and feeling homogenized (just look at the top 2 sort of tiers and how they differ).

I know you like Engineer, but, if you’re trying buffs on for size I think you should consider the Necromancer too. It’s actually arguably the weakest as well, despite you disagreeing.

Have you checked out the Necro downstate recently? The Engineer gets Chill or Weakness or Bleed on the 1-skill. Some hybrid damage. Some pretty good shutdown. Compared to the Necro’s Life Siphon, there are many situations where I would rather have chill, weakness, and bleed on my attacker than I would rather have ‘health siphoning’ lol.

The Necromancer 2-skill – same challenges as the Engineer downed state 2 ability, but reversed direction for affected enemies. Has bad synergy with the stationary 3 skill, which the enemy needs to sit in for full effect. On the other hand, the Engineer 2-skill can pull targets in and execute them with Booby Trap.

The Necromancer 3-skill – the AoE poison well. Poison damage is a factor. The well’s damage hits well (ho-ho). Overall, useless if you’re about to be stomped. Has very low impact on the fight. The Engineer’s 3-skill, Booby Trap, this thing acts as a second interrupt to often extend the Engineer’s chances of rallying while downed farther than the Necros on average. It’s bursty, a blast finisher, and I’d take it over the necromancer’s ‘Fetid Ground’ any day, for those reasons.

So, do you not agree that Engineer downed state is overall better than the Necromancer?

To be quite honest, none of these comparisons even matter. And that’s because they should not be of equal strength to begin with. Something you mentioned before, about how every profession should get equally potent, but unique, downed state abilities. A great idea in theory, but it doesn’t take into account the fact that the downed state strength of each profession are a part of the equation when balancing the profession as a whole/

My point is – you feel that equalizing/homogenizing downed state strength will improve balance across professions, but it would actually detract depth from the game. When stomping players, you need to select different tools for each profession. For example, stealth stomping is great vs. Warrior, Engineer, Necro, and occasionally Mesmer, but stealth stomping is garbage vs. Ranger, Guardian, Elementalist, or Thief. If every profession had an AoE interrupt that went about that in different ways, (daze, pull, knockback, whatever) what good would stealth stomping or body block stomping be?

I’d really prefer the status quo on this one. If I was to change anything about the game’s downed states, it’d be to suppress Ranger Pets, Phantasms, and any other kind of tools that players can’t use while downed.

Yes, the #2 skill feels very lackluster.
Not only does it pull the enemy towards you, it also has the shortest interrupt duration (compared with knockdown/fear/daze)

I mean I get that booby trap has a long cooldown because its an aoe knockdown but realistically if you got more than one person around you you are dead long before you ever get a chance to use it. On the times it used, its most likely because just one enemy was around, so its aoe potential is wasted. 20 seconds is too high as it stands, it should at least be lowered a bit.

Mind you, not everything is sPvP. Booby Trap isn’t a bad skill, especially in PvE situations.

Chaith.8256:

Aberrant.6749:

If you can give more reasons why eng is better than the others I wouldn’t mind reading them. I disagree with the ones you’ve listed already.

You misunderstand. I’m not saying everyone should have the same exact skills that behave in the same way or anything. You can have them do different things that have similar end results. I’m suggesting that the minimum effect should be for the #2 skill that it can stop multiple stompers on down. There are ways to achieve this without it all being the same and feeling homogenized (just look at the top 2 sort of tiers and how they differ).

I know you like Engineer, but, if you’re trying buffs on for size I think you should consider the Necromancer too. It’s actually arguably the weakest as well, despite you disagreeing.

Have you checked out the Necro downstate recently? The Engineer gets Chill or Weakness or Bleed on the 1-skill. Some hybrid damage. Some pretty good shutdown. Compared to the Necro’s Life Siphon, there are many situations where I would rather have chill, weakness, and bleed on my attacker than I would rather have ‘health siphoning’ lol.

The Necromancer 2-skill – same challenges as the Engineer downed state 2 ability, but reversed direction for affected enemies. Has bad synergy with the stationary 3 skill, which the enemy needs to sit in for full effect. On the other hand, the Engineer 2-skill can pull targets in and execute them with Booby Trap.

The Necromancer 3-skill – the AoE poison well. Poison damage is a factor. The well’s damage hits well (ho-ho). Overall, useless if you’re about to be stomped. Has very low impact on the fight. The Engineer’s 3-skill, Booby Trap, this thing acts as a second interrupt to often extend the Engineer’s chances of rallying while downed farther than the Necros on average. It’s bursty, a blast finisher, and I’d take it over the necromancer’s ‘Fetid Ground’ any day, for those reasons.

So, do you not agree that Engineer downed state is overall better than the Necromancer?

To be quite honest, none of these comparisons even matter. And that’s because they should not be of equal strength to begin with. Something you mentioned before, about how every profession should get equally potent, but unique, downed state abilities. A great idea in theory, but it doesn’t take into account the fact that the downed state strength of each profession are a part of the equation when balancing the profession as a whole/

My point is – you feel that equalizing/homogenizing downed state strength will improve balance across professions, but it would actually detract depth from the game. When stomping players, you need to select different tools for each profession. For example, stealth stomping is great vs. Warrior, Engineer, Necro, and occasionally Mesmer, but stealth stomping is garbage vs. Ranger, Guardian, Elementalist, or Thief. If every profession had an AoE interrupt that went about that in different ways, (daze, pull, knockback, whatever) what good would stealth stomping or body block stomping be?

I’d really prefer the status quo on this one. If I was to change anything about the game’s downed states, it’d be to suppress Ranger Pets, Phantasms, and any other kind of tools that players can’t use while downed.

I find it’s better just because it’s not a projectile and it gives your allies more time to get to you since it moves them away from the target. I totally agree the 3 sucks on necro, but it’s rare that the 3 comes into play with eng/war. I agree that it needs some love as well.

The overall strength of the classes have changed quite a bit, but the downed states have remained the same (save ele). It doesn’t really seem as if it’s taking into account the overall strength of the class.

As far as stealth stomping it has other benefits. Some downed skills need a target. That removes the target and the skill can’t be used. Body blocking wouldn’t useful anymore vs. eng/war though, you’re right.

I agree that phants etc. shouldn’t do anything while the player is downed.

coglin.1867:

Considering it is one of the middle to better downed stated, I do not see why they would. Only down states better then ours is Mesmer, Elementalist and Thief.

You’ve got to be kidding.

The 1 skill is an RNG condition attack, which makes it unreliable for getting the damage you need to rally.

The 2 skill invites enemies to beat on you or stomp you in PVP and WVW.

The 3 skill is roughly as good as the 2 skill of every other class.

Vivorcha,
1…..before you make claims about the damage of the skills. I would like to ask what the damage modifier is on our #1 skill? I see so many here make claims who I am certain do not even have a clue hoe much damage it actually does. As well the downed state is not completely RnG as the wiki says.

2…..How does a skill that interrupts invite stomps? that doesn’t make sense at all. Your logic is lacking there a bit. I still cannot figure out why so many posters jump to some illogical conclusion that when you use this the pull offers the enemy a better chance to stomp. If they are about to stomp you, you use it to interrupt. Clearly they are already in stomping range, the pull is irrelevant. If they are out of stomping range, you are either using your #1 or #4 skill. Either way the pull changes nothing.

3…..That doesn’t make sense. The highest damage downed skill in the game, that does the damage in an AoE, and does an AoE Blow out, and is a blast finisher, you compare you compare to skills that function exactly as are #2 skill

What is so amusing, is that this thread pops up regularly on every professional sub forums exclaiming that their profession (usually their current main, or current leveling character) downed skills are the worst and need to be revamped.

It’s even more amusing that every time this comes up on the Engineer forum, people need to continuously reduce the comparison space to make the Engineer skills seem “weakest”.

Like “#2 is bad because it’s single-target”. Then when you counter that plenty #2 are single target, the next one is “#2 pulls enemies closer”. When you then say that this is irrelevant (as you say, plus this can actually lead to a near-instant rally in a zerg situation!), “#2 can be blocked”.

And so on. Ofc, if I compare #2 to other blockable single target pulling #2 downed moves, I end up with none being weaker. By virtue of this being the only one. #3 is also the weakest AE blast finisher blowout downed move in the game, AFAIK. And the strongest! At the same time!

Oddly, no one ever seems to notice how powerful #2 is in PvE or in a zerg situation, how much raw damage you can do on the ground, or how useful a blast finisher can be. Doesn’t matter, compared #2 to Mesmer #2 and cried about sPvP inequality.

At some point Downed State posts need to become a bannable offence. -.-

I can only speak from experience so I don’t pretend to be an expert. I’m like an 85/15% pve/WvW player. In PvE I think we are one of the weaker ones. To me it all comes down to the chances of getting up.
I’ve played Warrior, Guardian, ranger, thief and ele and we seem to have the least chance of getting back up out of them. though thief isn’t that great either if I remember correctly. I don’t like the long charge time on our #2 and 3 skills. In WvW I’ve been stomped multiple times before I could even get the 2 skill off, though as I only play engi in WvW, maybe that’s a problem for most classes. The explosion skill is alright, and if I survive long enough it’s nice to have 2 interrupts in WvW but in PvE it doesn’t seem all that great. Maybe I’m just spoiled by ele downed and warrior. (vengeance traited to 100% chance to come back on kill is real nice)

It annoys me that elementalists got a revamp and engineers got left out to dry.

I think we’re the least-liked class by Anet. We’re not one of the original classes, and we aren’t a cool Dungeons and Dragons class type (Thieves are Thieves and Guardians are Clerics).

VIVorcha.7853:

It annoys me that elementalists got a revamp and engineers got left out to dry.

I think we’re the least-liked class by Anet. We’re not one of the original classes, and we aren’t a cool Dungeons and Dragons class type (Thieves are Thieves and Guardians are Clerics).

I can’t believe you’re saying ‘poor Engineers’ because they’re not covered under the 4 Dungeons and Dragons archetypes, lol. Yes, Anet clearly hates all Engineers. That’s like saying an Artist probably least likes his second painting, because if he really liked it, he would have painted that concept first. lolololol.

The Engineer is an awesome concept because it is pretty much every ‘rare’ and ‘oddball’ RPG role combined into one. The Engineer is: 1) The Inventor/Machinist. 2.) The Gunslinger/Demolitionist. 3) The Alchemist.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyCharacterClasses

If you remember correctly, Elementalists had no ways to prevent a stomp in the first 8 seconds. LOL. That is infinitely worse than any downed state that ever existed. Anet intervened for that – it was truly broken. I can see how Engineer downed state is not demanding of Anet to immediately buff it, if you can’t see that, then I think you’re blind to the fact that even much greater perceived inequalities are everywhere.

Chaith.8256:

VIVorcha.7853:

It annoys me that elementalists got a revamp and engineers got left out to dry.

I think we’re the least-liked class by Anet. We’re not one of the original classes, and we aren’t a cool Dungeons and Dragons class type (Thieves are Thieves and Guardians are Clerics).

I can’t believe you’re saying ‘poor Engineers’ because they’re not covered under the 4 Dungeons and Dragons archetypes, lol. Yes, Anet clearly hates all Engineers. That’s like saying an Artist probably least likes his second painting, because if he really liked it, he would have painted that concept first. lolololol.

I don’t see that comparison at all. He’s basing his opinion on the treatment of engineer, not on the time it was created.

ratche.6204:

Chaith.8256:

VIVorcha.7853:

It annoys me that elementalists got a revamp and engineers got left out to dry.

I think we’re the least-liked class by Anet. We’re not one of the original classes, and we aren’t a cool Dungeons and Dragons class type (Thieves are Thieves and Guardians are Clerics).

I can’t believe you’re saying ‘poor Engineers’ because they’re not covered under the 4 Dungeons and Dragons archetypes, lol. Yes, Anet clearly hates all Engineers. That’s like saying an Artist probably least likes his second painting, because if he really liked it, he would have painted that concept first. lolololol.

I don’t see that comparison at all. He’s basing his opinion on the treatment of engineer, not on the time it was created.

He just used ’We’re not one of the original classes’ as he elaborated on why Engineer is least liked. What? And even if he was basing his opinion on the treatment of Engineer… what bad treatment has Engineer received? It was just the Ele who was subpar and got buffed. It wasn’t the Engi alone who didn’t get a new toy, it was every profession other than Ele. Gawdam.

It’s more that not just eles that needed the downed revamp (although they needed it the most at the time) so I can understand other classes feeling left out.

I agree it’s funny when I see thieves complain about their downed skills. Some classes are wonderful as is.

Btw I had a thought… if they made them at least multi-projectiles (thus capable of stopping multiple stompers) you could still body block if they wanted to keep that in the game.