Guild Wars 2

The struggle on support in this game at the moment is great, I could talk about every profession, but I only really play Engi so I’ll keep it here. I know this is a long post but I believe it is very important.

One of the builds I’ve been trying to make viable for a long time is Engineer support, they have great support such as might stacking, regen, good heals and condition removers, but overall when I look at guardian they just don’t make the cut. I believe before the trait ‘kit refinement’ got nerfed, we did have a nice support build, dude to the healing field when switching to ‘elixir gun’. Also what I consider support may confusion some people, support to me can mean might stacking, water fields, condi removal, stacking vulnerability, boon removal etc.

Now Guild Wars2 was meant to be the game where every class can fit different roles depends on how they wanted to play, but support is general is out-shined by guardian on every profession, you’ll be every serious wvw party with a guardian, they’ll be needed in fractals and in TPvP.

This is an example build I’ve been using for support:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqelIq6ZX3SdF17IRoHF2wqFUh6K6h+tMlB-j0BBUDgE1A5RFRjtIsIas6jYqVER1eFER1SBYi0I-w (this build can be run with cleric, I have tested them both they are really nice, but I feel apothecary is better due to all the conditions you’ll have with this build which will add more pressure).

The add of stability to ‘throw Elixir B’ was great but when Guardians already have two stability skills it doesn’t match up to that standard. We do on one hand have two nice water fields from the ‘healing turret’ which guardians don’t and 4 blast finishers on this build, but to get that we can’t apply any protection to allies which is an amazing boon which guardians keep up almost all the time.

Another fact that our traits down support don’t really benefit each other, from adept to master to grandmaster hurts a lot, the only trait that benefits for support would be normal elixirs. Most times when running support, they’ll be one or two traits I’ll need which are in grandmaster, a prime example of this is ‘Elixir-Infused Bombs’. The traits before that do not help my team in anyway, the closes you can get is ‘Elite Supplies’, and few more med kits every 180 seconds doesn’t really help the team much, alone its fine.

The skill ‘fumigate’ (elixir gun no.3) is an amazing skill allowing us to remove 5 conditions from all our allies, but when you look at traits such as ‘pure of voice’, which converts a condition to a boon it makes me wonder why anyone would want them to only be removed.

I also have some suggestion on how to improve this, yet again only for Engi. I believe more traits that benefit your allies would be great, things like ‘Shielded Mind’ and ‘Indomitable Courage’, maybe a trait improve the trait HGH, as throwing elixirs only give one stack of might it isn’t really giving much to your allies. Using a fire field with your bomb and blasting finishers is a much better way of gaining might, so personally I believe that trait is useless.

I believe we should also get a trait like ‘Strength in Numbers’, maybe something that increases condition dmg, or turn ‘Energy conversion Matrix’ into an trait that events allies. That last suggestion maybe overpowered, but I believe these are ideas that can be taken and re-applied in a better manor. I believe ‘Backpack Regenerator’ could also be a skill that could affect your allies, but it should be similar to ‘Strength in Numbers’, in the fact you can’t stack the trait by having five engineers in one party.

The ‘Bomb Kit’ for support really works nicely, as it gives gd basic damage and condition damage, but I really believe that for no.2, no.4 and no.5 the pulse should healing also, and the Big Ol’ Bomb should heal for more. Besides that I am really happy that you increased the healing by 50% on the bombs, it makes for much better support now!

My last suggestion has to do with the ‘Elixir Gun’, it’s an amazing kit but the traits let it down big time. The fact ‘Elixir Gun’ skills don’t take effect from elixir traits really doesn’t make sense to me. I believe there should also combined ‘Deadly Mixture’ with the trait ‘Fireforge Trigger’, they work so well together but the positions they are in the trait line really do not help. I’m not too certain about this one so don’t attack me if I’m wrong but the ‘Super Elixir’ seemed to have had a reduce on its healing for both impact and pulse from how it was back in 2012 December time. If that is correct I honestly think that may have been a bad move since we cannot have two ‘Super Elixir’ fields down at once since the ‘Kit Refinement’ change.

If there is anything I’ve missed out please comment it down!

engineers can support without gimping their damage. this is what i use.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqelIqSYX3SiF17IyoCdGoH1FgNife8WtFEC-jwBBYfBksAgKAMzsIastBFRjVXDT5iIqGA-e

i’m not sure why you put the guardian on such a high pedestal. in my ideal party, i wouldn’t even bring a guardian. low damage, reflect walls that aren’t needed in any encounter whatsoever (and even if they were the mesmer can cover it), etc. also as a frequent ele player i can safely say i hate running with guardians. every time i try to stack might and fury, BAM AREA RETAL.

my ideal party would be ele, thief, warrior, mesmer, and engi. the engi could be swapped for ranger. but guardians… blegh gross.

There’s a few ways to play support, the two I’ve tried myself are:

• Bomb Healer
• Elixir + EG

I currently play the latter, and it’s a lot of fun because it’s so adaptable. The Elixirs actually cover most situation, you can deflect projectiles, clear conditions, provide lots of boons, give stealth, stability, rezz people, everything.
On top of that the Elixir Gun, which is great for a lot of things, Weakness, Poison, Healing, Retaliation, condition cleansing, cripple, swiftness.

Sure you do ~0 damage. But the raw amount of support is crazy. In dungeons I noticed it’s slower but quite significantly less unstable. It’s a good match for a group which doesn’t run full zerker in the first place (say because they take on randoms).

I appreciate your comment ellesee, at first I didn’t really care much about the differences between engineer and guardian support but lately in WvW and fractals Guardians in my case are a must need. In WvW without stability you just get destroyed by heavy CC, though I do admit engineer does have a nice stability skill now, but no were near as as much guardian’s dish out.

What you say about light field does make alot of sense, thank you for this.

Also yea Carighan I get what you mean on the bomb healer, I do love that, elixir gun + pitsol shield + bomb kit is why I go down condition/healing rather then power/healing lately, although I do have sets of armor for both.

well in wvwvw the guardian is miles better when you talk about big zerg fights. the engineer is a better roamer though, probably one of the best roamers in the game. i was strictly talking about pve. but anyway you have to remember how the game is designed. skills aren’t separated between pve/pvp. a skill change to better suit one area of the game can drastically change the class in other areas and alter future balance decisions. necro dhuumfire is a good example.

i’ve tried bomb heals. it wasn’t for me. i don’t think it’s a good build and that’s for pve and wvwvw. and tpvp.

Yea as a roamer engi are in a great position, and yea zergs were one of my reasons for believing all of this.
You are also right about the balance between pve/pvp, skills are very situational atm indeed.
Thank you for sharing with me what you think.

Black, I’m still a relatively new engi and I run a build similar to yours… only power-based instead of condition. I find it quite useful in both PvE and WvW, and in PvP even moreso. In WvW I don’t find I’m very good at solo roaming; the build works much better in a small group, which is my preference anyway.

I haven’t played guardian yet, probably should since I enjoy these sorts of defensive characters. But I think the support engi is quite viable, and I even do a decent amount of damage, if not a lot.

I see what the poster is saying about guardians and I agree with him/ her 100%. The problem is the “monster” Anet have created which does not lie with guardians alone but under several classes being allowed to be very OP without any cost to the class. The issue is a lack of knowledge by the development team in what is true battle warfare and how differing classes (light, medium and heavy), form in the world of battle tactic both in gaming and real life. The poster I think is making the point that it is the “ease” at which defense and how potent it is, lends the playstyle for guardians is whats being prompted here as being far too easy and far too generous for what should be a heavy class.
The examples – Good DPS, tremendous healing and very good condition into boon abilities and good stability, stuns etc – which enables them to venture into dungeons and versatile in wvw without much change to both build and armor costs.

In respects to Engineer condition removal (and related guardian defenses), much of it revolves round elixirs and there are far more valuable things to be had in slots. In contrast Guardians literally have to stand and do very little to proc defenses etc. It is hardly an even deal to the Engie, who has to manually proc everything to get the best out the class. The key word is engineering and as with engineering tech the basis of engineering is partly automation merged sequential ai to make daily life more efficient, safer and working at optimum efficiency. This is why we no longer battle with muskets and now use machine guns etc. I personally feel elixirs are more of a handicap as they are formed as a skill , since when was drinking a skill ?- (makes note for next time as an excuse for coming home drunk from the pub).

The issue is that medium classes often have to prod into 30 points to get anything meaningful for such defense and much of it is watered down as opposed to other classes . Elixir bombs 30 points in one skill line, gain Aegis when struck ( another 30 points in tools). It means that all the good things are not only denied from us because they need 30 points but also the good stuff is all over the place. The flip side to this is Guardians get all of this for free pretty much and in a very potent form and you kinda have to question why is this when they already have a decent health pool and already have heavy armor.

As a kid I used to love reading about warfare in particular tanks and aircraft. The differences and tech used between light, medium and heavy vehicles/ infantry is a very interesting subject. I save the tech info but read about the M-3 Grant/Lee tank and it should give you an insight into how medium class warfare works. The same examples should apply to GW in some essence in balancing classes.

If we were to consider proper battle format, it is the medium classes that should have the more potent forms of defense to counteract the weaker armor. But this is the problem Anet have constantly with medium classes. They have some very strange mindset that medium means medium damage/ medium armor is a balance. Not a bit of it- there needs to be a higher stat somewhere in the chain to balance the strengths and weaknesses of a class. In medium classes they really have no idea on what to do with them and anyone that says they are “in a great position” is not considering how the whole imbalance looks in the GW gaming point of view.
To be brutally honest , Anet should employ someone with at least an idea in how battle tactics and armor defenses work but that’s another story :P ( PS I am up for that task is you want – grins)

I digress… anyways , That being said I do carry an Elixir B for reflects but to carry another Elixir in an already limited slot amount would be suicide for me .
As opposed to a guardian who can have automated condition to boon converting (and very good it is too) , our engie has a watered down version of that in our Transmute. While a guardian can have very good regen on each hit of skill 3 on hammer, we are still relegated to manually activating our regen through a kit ( if indeed we take it). Bomb heals are a great idea on paper, but do not deliver enough healing for a 30 points in traits. Had they offered higher healing and a regen tick for allies I could understand the cost and the viability of infused bombs .
On paper though Engies and a few other medium classes need a rethink. The day Anet made Power Shoes as a static 25% speed boost was a step in the right direction. If they keep on this mode of thought they will be on the right track, no question about it.

I really need help guys. I have leveled my engi up to 57 and ele is 55, and i still cant decide, which class is mine.
I like to play a support role (guardian not my style), and i like to make a decisions in pve. Let me explaine, when you play as an ele it feels like you have to switch attunements even if you dont need it right now (for keeping up buffs), and when you play engie you swap tool kit depend on situations. So this playstyle fits me better, but i feel like engie support much weaker then ele.
Another question, i really like cleric and celestial armor, which class benefits from this stats?
Which class is more desireble in dungeons?

I feel that Apothecary, whilst strong in WvW, doesn’t work that well in PVE.

Similarly, Healing Bombs doesn’t help that much without Forceful Explosives. 180 radius means that you will only be able to heal your allies during Stack and Cleave in PVE. In WvW where combat is mobile, Healing bombs becomes utterly useless, even to yourself, as you will run out of the radius before it detonates with Swiftness.

At the same time, Condition damage is extremely weak in PVE, which necessitates either massive Might stacking to make up for the lack in damage, or praying that there’s no other Condition proccing attacks from other classes. Finally, the trait setup is extremely unfavourable towards Condition output. Without Incendiary Powder or Shrapnel or the direct damage support of Steel Packed Powder, your pressure will almost solely come from Fire Bomb, which is hardly sustainable by itself. Bleeds from Sharpshooter or Pistol 1 are also not very useful without the condition duration extension from the Explosives line. Overall your build has a lot of support, but not enough damage – which is in itself a form of support.

Therefore, you want spike healing and massive Boon output to even hold a candle to Guardian support , which is where Thumper Turret comes in with its Triple Blast.

Optionally you can choose to sacrifice some Boon uptime for 5 more points in Tools for Deployable Turrets to exploit a bug that lets you “detonate” turrets in mid-air to get another Blast finisher before it deploys. Then again, there’s going to be a lot of bug fixes in March 18 so I wouldn’t rely on it, which is why the setup is 25 Alchemy, 15 Tools.

However if you choose to exploit this bug with 20 Alchemy, 20 Tools and Deployable Turrets, you can potentially blast twice from Healing Turret per 20 seconds, and 4 times from Thumper Turret per 50 seconds. That’s a lot of spike healing. At 1060 Healing Power your Blast Finishers in Water Fields heal 1532 – and you can do this every 15 seconds when you combine Healing Turret with animation-canceled Acid Bomb.

Sigil of Renewal even with a lot of Healing Power behind it is so insignificant as to be a non-factor. At 0.1 scaling and 374 base with 1500 Healing Power (pretty much the maximum before Food) it’s 524 healing…per 10 seconds. That’s 52.4 HPS, or barely surpassing most standard Condition build’s single Bleed Stack. The Sigil of Water is similarly underpowered. Even in a party of 5 stacked together, that’s only 262 HPS across the party. Regeneration from Healing Turret and Healing Mist from Elixir Gun grants 187.5 HPS… per person. This is why I have chosen to replace the Renewal Sigil with Sigil of Battle instead.

Sigil of Battle at 60% Boon Duration (In truth, you only need 50% Duration to min-max it) will net you 9 Might stacks on its own 30 seconds into the fight. That’s 337.5 extra Power and Condition damage, excluding any Might Stacks you should obviously be giving the party through Blasting your Fire Bomb. Combined with Altruism Runes, you should be running with 25 Might stacks in combat, with Perma-Fury. With the stats as they are laid out, that’s pretty much a mid-tier Zerker build; except you have the EHP of a Bunker.

With the setup as is, you can blow your Regenerating Mist on cooldown with the assurance that once per 90 seconds it will be reset to stunbreak you with Inertial Converter. Protection Injection is there in case you don’t have your cooldowns.

This setup should also work well in WvW in the absence of Boon Hate. As a Support build that is quite tanky you could quite easily take on other melee setups. Unfortunately, the lack of pulls or ranged snares makes it difficult to zero in on kiting targets, and a lack of reliable Poison uptime makes the build at risk of losing to Healing Signet Warriors. If that is a concern, consider swapping out the Sigil of Battle with a Sigil of Doom and sacrificing Fireforged Trigger for Sitting Duck to cover the Poison.

On the other hand, strong PBAoE combined with overwhelming sustain and high EHP puts Stealth based Thieves in the dumpster. Prot Injection will ensure that Basilisk Venom cannot set you up to be spiked, for example. In addition, the build features overwhelming spike healing; which easily overcomes burst damage and prevents traits like Executioner or Bolt to the Heart from kicking in.

The only concern of note is condi Necromancers with Corrupt Boon or Power Necromancers with Well of Corruption, or PU Mesmers that can kite you forever (you are unlikely to die, but you cannot easily kill them either).