Engineer and post-patch - A retrospect.

Engineer and post-patch - A retrospect.

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

I think few defended the cause of angry Engineers feeling pushed down to the bottom of viable classes as fervently as I did. But now, after trying both one and two things, I have had to revise my stance and feel the time is ripe to look back at how things ultimately have panned out.

My biggest gripe was the elixir gun. But after changing my build, I can say this thing is as reliable as ever.

I have healing power and toughness on pretty much all my gear, and 30 points in toughness. I output about 300 hp per sec per circle – For ten seconds.
That’s 300×20=6000. Let’s assume healing mist (toolbelt skill) does 370. That’s 370×10. So far 9700. Add in an impact heal of 680 per super elixir and that’s 1360. That’s 11060 hp over 10 secs. If you have elixir infused bombs and spam those as well that’s pretty much like a third super elixir. But since the time intervall between bombs seem less than a second it might even bumb us up to the 15k mark. Pop elixir U and it’s easy to go above 20k.

Now this is outstanding in it’s own right. But it also requires that you have time to stand around for ten seconds, which is rarely the case both in PvE and PvP. But overall, this adds to Engineers survivability and makes him a VERY competent healer in explorable paths and in some situations, PvP.
The big thing was though that these numbers could well be achieved without pooling healing stats into your gear, like you should have to if you want to be a godly healer. In retrospect I can’t deny that it was bugged and needed a fix.

Next for the grenades. I never used these a lot as I consider them too easy to dodge. From a PvE standpoint though they definetly have the potential to shine – Especially since Engineers can stack might and fury forever now.
But is it enough? From what I gather, any damage focused Engineer can easily keep 10-15 might stacks running in a fight with constant fury – Is that a buff in damage that compensates or overcompensates for the 30% damage reduction since the patch? I don’t know. Maybe someone with a number cruncher mind can dish out a good response.

About no weapon stats with the kits… Let’s place the cards on the tabls, who uses kits over the regular weapons to spam attacks anyways? And personally I feel Engineer might be considered OP with the addition of this, considering how much our might stacking has grown, and I’d rather keep things as they are than having them nerfed to “compensate” for kits with weapon stats.

Finally to what the Engineer can bring both to himself and the team. I feel, that as now is, Engineer can be a bunker or a healer or a straight out crit and condition damager – And do a very good job at any of those – Not to talk about the aoe buffs – , or a decent job at all three, focusing on shoring up where there’s lacking from “expert” classes in either department and defend himself in a pinch with a varied and unpredictable arsenal. It really is a skill based class though. There’s also interesting new builds surfacing, such as the “Chain lightning Engineer” build and before that we had the “Tankcat Build”. I’d say that this class has enormous potential and is by no means out of the game yet – It’s just not a class that you can pick up and do very well with when you don’t play against skillfull enemies.
Get good at it though, and jebus.

But one thing can’t be denied. For the love of god, FIX the bugs with the skills. PLEASE. Backpack generator does NOTHING, and turrets STILL fire at whatever they feel like.

Keep gaming on fellow engies.

(edited by Oxstar.7643)

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Posted by: insanemaniac.2456

insanemaniac.2456

2 things

first, spamming grenades is worth it. the vuln stacks make anything go down wayyyyy faster. any grenadier worth anything would still spam 1.

second, static discharge build thread is a month old

JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions

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Posted by: Kardiamond.6952

Kardiamond.6952

In spvp our bunker spec is the only viable spec we have. Even the its out matched by other fotm bunker class. Try your build vs a guardian.

Also, thevstatic discharge build have been public since release. We had a video on the forum and i used it since then. It was useful back then in wvw since you could burst down outgeated/outleveled player.

But in spvp and now more geared pkayer in wvw, its subpart

I tried it in spvp, and most other class dps build while outshine you. You sacrifice too much. And if you used grenade barrage, its not worth anymore.

Engineer is fun and can still be efficient in wvw and low level pvp. But like someone said, you have to play at 100% to kill a player at 80%.

When i do pug tpvp, I often get yelled at for being an engineer. Once we were 2 engi in the same team, others just gave up ahah.

Maybe in your experience its seems ok, but try every asset before saying that engi are fine.

Have a good day! Typed on my phonecsorry for mistype.

Rotthen (Necro) / Zhyx (Engineer) /Inglorious Beasterd (Ranger)
Server : Anvil Rock (Since Release!) [SOLO]

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

I’m not saying the grenade damage is not good. Just that they seem very easy to dodge.

And I HAVE fought guardians with this – It was a kinda boring fight, none of us were dying. I was healing more and the other guy simply had better defense.

Kardiamond, you say discharge builds is not worth it, yet when I look at the thread about it the response is very positive. I might try it in the future, if I can do that without having to buy a new set.
And I think the 100% vs 80% thing is a lot due to traits and skills being bugged. Fixing these and maybe a gew tweaks could mean so much for Engineer.

Yes, of course I can’t say for certain. I’m just sharing what I can deduce so far and I definetly have more testing to do.

(edited by Oxstar.7643)

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Posted by: Daigle.8497

Daigle.8497

“That’s 11060 hp over 10 secs.”

And then the GS warrior pushes the “Hundred Blades” button, and then you lose it all again in a short amount of time.

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Posted by: Monkey Fritz.9052

Monkey Fritz.9052

“That’s 11060 hp over 10 secs.”

And then the GS warrior pushes the “Hundred Blades” button, and then you lose it all again in a short amount of time.

Every single class has an anti-burst button.
It’s called DODGE.

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Posted by: Daigle.8497

Daigle.8497

the fact that the same class can still swing in that same confined space for 2k+ per swing kinda negates that healing.

Also: a listing for the group heals for the other classes:

Water Blast:Ele staff 1
370+.1 scaling:
470 HP AOE heals at range every 1.3 seconds.

Geyser: Ele staff 3
808 base +.25 scaling with 3 second duration: (3 ticks)
3204 HP over 3 seconds.

Cleansing wave: Ele Dagger 5
1302 base + 1 scaling
2342 HP burst heal with 40s cd AND/OR after dodge (if traited) with a 10s cd

Vigorous shouts: Warrior Trait:
40+((Level^2) x 0.18) + (Healing x 0.8)
1984 burst per shout. (Shout with lowest untraited cooldown is 25s, 20s if traited)

Shadow Refuge: Thief Utility:
355+.18 scaling over 5 ticks
2711 HP over 4 seconds.

Now…

’’SuperBroken’’ elixir:
380+.2 scaling over 10 seconds:
5880 HP over 10 seconds.

Sure, Super Elixir LOOKS good over 10 seconds, but…
A: you’re restricted to one area for 10 seconds
B: this kind of healing is still only in line with the other classes’ healing per second at that level.
C: Other classes get weapon stats with their weapons

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

Yes, for 10 seconds Engineer can heal better than any other class, assuming his teammates stand near him. Not a problem, every class got ranged weapons, and every healer need team co-ordination. This ain’t WoW.

Elxir infused bomb can likely compete with water blast, just that it’s short ranged – Something that can partly be remedied with forceful explosives. But in it’s defense it offers very good damage output (assuming you can hit) plus smoke screen, JUST IN CASE somebody charges in on you and does whatever. Gear shield helps a lot vs hundred blades etc, and if you’re a healer then blocks and control (survivability) is in your best interests.

And as Monkey Fritz has said, you CAN dodge. The area of super elixir is not so confined so you don’t have room to dodge. And there’s several ways to stop melee chargers or lessen the damage taken to you. Just that it’s a godsend for anti-condition helps a LOT.

Show me ANY other class that can output 15k AoE over 10 secs. And if your team has quickness skills the healing becomes pretty buff – From the bombs alone.

Also, the healing from super elixir is not scaling but consistent. Consistent impact heal consistent second heal. Same for the bombs.

I encourage you to try it yourself and make your own experiences. We all have our way to go about things.

PS: You have to remember, all the other classes can’t blaze through skills like Engineer can – Elementalist has a CD on each attunment after switching from it and the other classes have at least 10 secs at all times on their weapon switch.

Engineer have a CD of 2 sec on a kit switch and that goes for ALL of them.

(edited by Oxstar.7643)

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Posted by: Monkey Fritz.9052

Monkey Fritz.9052

It’s not like we don’t have enough CC to keep them busy while we are healing. I’ve wanted to try out a CC/heal build for a while, probably next on my list of “This week’s fun new build!”
It just requires actual cooperation and coordination with your teammates to be effective. As powerful as individual builds can be, the room for true coordination in this game is exponentially powerful. If I had four decent players to play with on a regular basis I expect we could be quite the force.

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

It’s not like we don’t have enough CC to keep them busy while we are healing. I’ve wanted to try out a CC/heal build for a while, probably next on my list of “This week’s fun new build!”
It just requires actual cooperation and coordination with your teammates to be effective. As powerful as individual builds can be, the room for true coordination in this game is exponentially powerful. If I had four decent players to play with on a regular basis I expect we could be quite the force.

Absolutely. I have noticed that since I started to caretake my team instead of focusing on rad damage (lol 9k jump shot) there’s more overall success.

I think the problem is that many only look at the individual aspect of Engineers one by one instead of how they sync with each other from trait to kit and kit to kit.

Hey, healing, blah. hey, damage, blah. Hey, this and that blah.

When it should be; Hmmm, if I put these together and learn how to be flexible with it I can create a multitude of contributions and strong sides that is quite the fantastic mix when put together.

Basically, an all around expert will always beat a singular master.

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

And really, think about it. Engineers may not be as diverse as elementalists, but elementalists depend on attunements while Engineers can switch to whatever is needed most on the fly. It may be a less powerful diversity… But it sure is a much more reliable one.

Besides, what would happem if you mixed a bunch of spices and salts and swallowed it? A terrible mix, right? BUT, apply these mixes to something that’s already working great and your result will increase a lot.

Really, isn’t the most important thing to never fall short, especially in teamwork? As an Engineer I feel that a lot of the times I provide that extra bit of heals, cc, damage, whatever, that is lacking so the team can work as intended. Is there a more important job, really? See Engineers as that missing fuse that’s needed to make the wheel spin around. You’re needed – More than you think. And personally, I’d take a reliable and constant diversity over the contrary anyday. Diversity on a 15 sec CD? Have fun, eles. Mine is on 2.

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Posted by: Sylosi.6503

Sylosi.6503

About no weapon stats with the kits… Let’s place the cards on the tabls, who uses kits over the regular weapons to spam attacks anyways? And personally I feel Engineer might be considered OP with the addition of this, considering how much our might stacking has grown, and I’d rather keep things as they are than having them nerfed to “compensate” for kits with weapon stats.

There is nothing to “compensate” for, in sPvP there are no stats on weapons, kits don’t do less damage in sPvP than WvW or PvE, engineers have simply been playing at a disadvanatge outside of sPvP, because this is yet another feature that was not put in before release.

I’d say that this class has enormous potential and is by no means out of the game yet – It’s just not a class that you can pick up and do very well with when you don’t play against skillfull enemies.
Get good at it though, and jebus.

It is a class that is not tier one for anything in tPvP, it has had its best role – bunker/point holder, gradually nerfed with the removal of stability from flamethrower trait, nerf to smoke bomb, etc, to the point it is clearly not as good as certain other classes in this role anymore.

Yes it is a more difficult class to play , but that isn’t relevant, unless you are under the delusion it is only bad or average players that think the Engineer class has issues, I was watching a stream of a very good engineer today, he described the state of the class as “currently weak”.

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

lol “currently weak”.
My experience say otherwise.
I stomp thieves and ridicule warriors for example. Eles run from me. What, were they bad players? Well so am I.
Yes, Engineer is not top tier for anything. And he’s not supposed to! Engineers provide something of everything instead of more from just something. In many cases this is much more important and useful than being pure into just ONE area, coz this ain’t WoW and you have to think more here.
I mean, what are you gonna do when your precious burst or defense that you worked so hard on just don’t quite cut it? Have an Engineer! They got something to help in every situation, and they can access them much more rapidly than the other classes.

In a nutshell, I’d say Engineer who go for being good at one thing only are weak.
Engineers who know how to combine the best parts from a wide array at the right time (I.E multitasking) are strong.

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Posted by: Sylosi.6503

Sylosi.6503

lol “currently weak”.
My experience say otherwise.

LoL, I’ll take the guy who was the top rated engi before he took he break, over some guy who thinks static discharge is a new build or that stats that are already balanced as shown by sPvP need to be “compensated” for.

Yes, Engineer is not top tier for anything. And he’s not supposed to! Engineers provide something of everything instead of more from just something. In many cases this is much more important and useful than being pure into just ONE area, coz this ain’t WoW and you have to think more here. .

Not really, all classes in this game are hybrids, they’ve got range, melee, heals, CC, etc, the most versatile class is Ele, the trait system smply does not work for all round builds.

As for WoW, I’ve never played it, I did however have to think, multitask and show more awareness on my loremaster in LOTRO though, than what passes for PvE (instances/Orr temples, etc, not the actual world/quests which are very nice) in this game.

In a nutshell, I’d say Engineer who go for being good at one thing only are weak.
Engineers who know how to combine the best parts from a wide array at the right time (I.E multitasking) are strong.

Other classes are considered ahead of them when it comes to team composition in tPvP, if they were as brilliant as you claim they would be mandatory not guardians, mesmers, etc, the reality does not reflect your perception.

(edited by Sylosi.6503)

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Posted by: WithoutAssumption.7936

WithoutAssumption.7936

We might be able to swap kits as we please, but the skill cooldowns are still there (as they should be). There’s only so much extra utility you gain from being able to swap into and out of a kit two-three times in 10 seconds, especially since we’re somewhat lacking in the finisher department.

You also gain your versatility purely through carrying these extra kits, many of which have abilities that are close enough to overlapping that it’s nigh pointless to carry some kits together. Our traits specialize and improve our kits individually, barring the elixir gun/flamethrower traits, both of which still require a large investment for either a damage boost or a cooldown reduction on the kits.

Since you can no longer swap utilities in tpvp, we can’t even claim we have the right tool for the job waiting in reserve. While that’s not a problem in pve, wvw, or spvp, it will limit the usefulness of engineers in the “competitive scene” of tpvp, where everyone has a job and there are other professions who can multitask better than us.

As far as healing goes, I’m more interested in the base heal and scaling coefficient, since it’s easier to compare those than it is to find a player of another profession diving heavily into healing power to compare healing output.

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Posted by: tigirius.9014

tigirius.9014

the fact that the same class can still swing in that same confined space for 2k+ per swing kinda negates that healing.

Also: a listing for the group heals for the other classes:

Water Blast:Ele staff 1
370+.1 scaling:
470 HP AOE heals at range every 1.3 seconds.

Geyser: Ele staff 3
808 base +.25 scaling with 3 second duration: (3 ticks)
3204 HP over 3 seconds.

Cleansing wave: Ele Dagger 5
1302 base + 1 scaling
2342 HP burst heal with 40s cd AND/OR after dodge (if traited) with a 10s cd

Vigorous shouts: Warrior Trait:
40+((Level^2) x 0.18) + (Healing x 0.8)
1984 burst per shout. (Shout with lowest untraited cooldown is 25s, 20s if traited)

Shadow Refuge: Thief Utility:
355+.18 scaling over 5 ticks
2711 HP over 4 seconds.

Now…

’’SuperBroken’’ elixir:
380+.2 scaling over 10 seconds:
5880 HP over 10 seconds.

Sure, Super Elixir LOOKS good over 10 seconds, but…
A: you’re restricted to one area for 10 seconds
B: this kind of healing is still only in line with the other classes’ healing per second at that level.
C: Other classes get weapon stats with their weapons

This exactly! and this doesn’t include all that’s wrong with his analysis of the bombs/grenades explosion radius that causes even MORE miss then what normally occurs from enemies moving.

My explosive radius is smaller then a dagger splash range. It gets even smaller when i trait it to be bigger. So yeah as soon as it works properly come back and tell me how good it is and this is on top of the global kit nerfs they imposed “for balance” HA balance…sigh. (that last part was for the guy who said it was fine)

Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!

(edited by tigirius.9014)

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

Sylosi, when exactly did this “top rated” stop playing? Pre-patch?
And lol at the rest, yeah right. Warrior, aoe heal on 15 sec CD. bluh? Doesn’t even heal as much as ONE super elixir. On a ten second CD.
A lot of players have agreed that Shadow refuge is not a reliable heal skill due to it’s long CD.
Yes, all classes can do every role in some degree. But what matters is how fast you can deliver what is needed most and if you can do on demand or not. Remember, RELIABLE versatility.
Yeah right. Other classes that have how many jobs to do? Warrior for damage and knockdowns and heals, eles for heals conditions and… part healing? Thieves for damage and emergency res, etc. It would be nice if I only had three things to keep in mind during a fight.

WithoutAssumption, I agree that some combinations are just pointless – To me at least. But, not pointess enough to become streamlined. And again, how do you define multitask capability? Honestly, I don’t care if another class can perform a hundred and one different tasks every minute to 100% – It’s still not gonna be as reliable as 80% every 15 seconds – Numbers are just a fictional example here.

Also, to me it sounds like this tpvp restriction only really hits engineers, which is just silly. Now I never said I know what TPvP is like – I don’t. I don’t consider myself a skilled engineer. I speak from pure field experience though – I can still hold my own by exploiting the flaws in the “pure” builds and give a group what they need pretty kitten fast.

Tell ya what. Tomorrow I’ll strip off all my gear and see what the pure base heal is – With resetted traits as well. I’ll post the numbers here and then people can number crunch to their hearts content.

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Posted by: WithoutAssumption.7936

WithoutAssumption.7936

Could you also get the coefficient and range of elixir infused bombs? The wiki is somewhat lacking in information, and when I tried it it seemed to work well, but that was before the SE nerf and I haven’t touched SPVP since (I have a horrible computer, it makes my blood boil).

I don’t think that our ability to multitask is worse than other professions (though our performance in the role we’re attempting to fill may or may not be), however I also don’t think it’s particularly better just because our swap cooldowns are almost nothing. I was swapping quite a bit when I was running 4 kits, where I might drop the confusion bomb, prybar the enemy, drop a super elixir, and then go back to bomb kit to finish them off (or net, use that sticky elixir, and pull enemies). It was fun even with the extra work, which is why I still post on these forums, but I’m sure I could have similar control over the fight with the right two weapons and good utility choices on any other profession once I learn it. While I was swapping back to kits well within the 10 second window, it was usually just to do the last bit of damage (since my heals and/or control skills were on cooldown), which, specifically comparing to Ele, I could do easily in 3/4 of the attunements.

Long story short, while I really enjoy being able to move almost freely between kits, what we gain from the much shorter cooldown is not that significant. I might feel otherwise if we had more finishers sprinkled in our kits. If anything, the faster swaps just make life a little easier, since we have a small tolerance toward being unobservant during a fight (say I prybar, start to bomb, and realize immediately that was really dumb and I need to block an incoming attack, when a better player would prybar, notice the attack starting, and block before kit/weapon swapping).

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

Well, if nothing else they are better because we can technically have 5 weapon sets avaible at any time. As to how useful these are really depends on you.

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Posted by: Lightsbane.9012

Lightsbane.9012

“That’s 11060 hp over 10 secs.”

And then the GS warrior pushes the “Hundred Blades” button, and then you lose it all again in a short amount of time.

>warrior uses shield stun
>warrior switches to GS and uses 100bautowin
>engineer with 3200 armor is bursted down to 2k.

As quick as the Valkyries ride,
As true as Odin’s spear flies,
There is nowhere to hide.

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Posted by: Kardiamond.6952

Kardiamond.6952

Oxstar, I will let you do one thing : Go try tPvP.

Go try your OP engineer build in tPvP please

I also wonder where your “engineer are balanced” experience come from? sPvP? WvW?PvE?

Like I said, I kill a lot of people in WvW. I also kill a lot of mobs in PvE. Doesn’t mean the class is on par with others.

Static discharge build have been there since release. You wonder why it’s not FotM? Because it lacing any kind of defence. People at first are amazed how much burst they have. Then as soon as they fight a good player, they get stomped.

It’s still one of our best build, but you could make a thief, push 3 button, and do the same thing, without the lack of survivability.

See no offence intended in this reply. But I’m playing this class since release, and we have receive nerf after nerf after nerf. Now I have a hard time joining a premade tPvP team because of that. I have to switch to my necro. After that I go on the forum and I see someone who might be a new engineer (not knowing the static discharge build?) say that those nerf didn’t effect us? Not fun man

Rotthen (Necro) / Zhyx (Engineer) /Inglorious Beasterd (Ranger)
Server : Anvil Rock (Since Release!) [SOLO]

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Posted by: Zero Angel.9715

Zero Angel.9715

Regarding Super Elixir, in practice:

I’ve noticed that it only benefits static tanking vs mobs. What i’ve noticed is that teammates will ignore the field about 80% of the time, so over half the time they will run out of it simply by trying to gain additional distance from whatever is hurting them (because hurt teammates tend to like to run to heal up). In essence, SE will only work when the group is bunkering down statically vs a mob. So SE has a good chance to heal when your tanks are tanking, but doesnt work vs classes with mobility because they just run out of the field! You get one, maybe 2 heal pulse offs and the SE is otherwise wasted.

That said, how does it stack up against Healing Rain (Ele/Water Staff 5) which has similar mechanics?

What is the base healing stat on a Lvl.80 engie? And are the heals you cite based on the basic healing stat? full heal gear w/o heal bonuses from runes? or full heal gear with a specific rune set?

(edited by Zero Angel.9715)

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Posted by: Bargaw.4832

Bargaw.4832

Super elixir is kitten, noone stands in this small aoe. GL catching 5people with it. It more a self heal + bonus if somone decides to stand in it.

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Posted by: Snafoo.2869

Snafoo.2869

Yes, all classes can do every role in some degree. But what matters is how fast you can deliver what is needed most and if you can do on demand or not. Remember, RELIABLE versatility.

Versatility is first and foremost about the choices you make in combat (because no one retraits between matches, and how many people retrait in W3 because they see there’s a lot of burst thieves today or something?) and engineers simply do not live up to that design philosophy.

Elementalists have a trait line devoted almost entirely to versatility (which comes in a large part from their attunement switching) in arcane power; for engineers this would supposedly be the tools traitline I assume but it adds little to nothing to ‘multi-kitting’ and what it adds to the toolbelt tends to force us into even more specific builds (i.e: static discharge) instead of more versatile ones.

The fact is it is a team game and balanced in part around that so saying an engineer can bring 2-3 kits and do a sub-par job in multiple areas is pointless because: What is the rest of the team doing then?
Versatility isn’t: “I push out almost as much straight healing as an elementalist, but if I do a bit of damage as well I’m up to par!”
It’s about choosing to give the team stability or regeneration, choosing to remove conditions or CC the enemy, considering if it’s time to save others or save yourself.

The idea that kits somehow magically give us versatility because “hey, you can take 3 if you want to! Think of all the skills you’ll have!” is ridiculous.

I get the impression a lot of people (A-net included) wish to make the point that we should look at classes as a whole, but I would like to point out it can be useful to look at skills on their own. Look at the details and the bigger picture becomes clear.
Compare elixirs for instance to shouts; why do we have to aim tiny AoE’s to give our teammates buffs and they just have to click a button? Why do ours only give a single RNG boon and theirs reliable, multiple boons?

Examples aplenty where they tried to make engineers different and quirky, but in reality it’s unreliable and sub-par and what is the trade off? Because it isn’t our phantom versatility.

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Posted by: Sabyne.6329

Sabyne.6329

Regarding Super Elixir, in practice:

I’ve noticed that it only benefits static tanking vs mobs. What i’ve noticed is that teammates will ignore the field about 80% of the time, so over half the time they will run out of it simply by trying to gain additional distance from whatever is hurting them (because hurt teammates tend to like to run to heal up). In essence, SE will only work when the group is bunkering down statically vs a mob. So SE has a good chance to heal when your tanks are tanking, but doesnt work vs classes with mobility because they just run out of the field! You get one, maybe 2 heal pulse offs and the SE is otherwise wasted.

That said, how does it stack up against Healing Rain (Ele/Water Staff 5) which has similar mechanics?

What is the base healing stat on a Lvl.80 engie? And are the heals you cite based on the basic healing stat? full heal gear w/o heal bonuses from runes? or full heal gear with a specific rune set?

I agree with this but most people don’t necessarily know what an engineer can do or classes they don’t play for that matter. When they know, they’re more than happy to stand in said field and even ask for them (had this happen in TA last time as one noticed I was a healingbomber with EG and kitrefinement).

I have the same problem with my guardian tbh. My empower/shouts have 600 range. I can remove conditions with the shouts, give aegis/protection/regen/stability, give 12 stacks of might and heal with empower but try to give that to 4 other people that don’t know how to play with your class? Good luck. Even the spirit shield which is kind of obvious, some people don’t stay under the bubble.
Even saw people dodge rolling away from the vines in TA when they have stability or aegis on them. xD
So if people don’t know how to play with a guardian, class which is known for its support abilities, it’s sure you can have a hard time supporting your team with an engineer. Your best bet is to tell people what you can do or not or play with friends which knows your build a bit.
There is a thread about that on reddit.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/15elu0/what_is_something_you_wish_more_people_knew/

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Posted by: Sporadicus.1028

Sporadicus.1028

ANet needs to do several things to fix the engineer:

1) Fix the bugs
2) AT LEAST fix the randomness with Elixirs, especially tosses. Elixir B I would rather have Fury or 2 stacks Might added with its bonus. Elixir S I would rather have Stability over Stealth (some would argue). The other elixirs are so screwed up that I don’t know where to begin to make their tosses viable.

Malkin Rawl – Charr Engineer, Tarnished Coast
Loudmouth, lousy PvPer, and mediocre PvEer.
I don’t own, I just play

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Posted by: NeryK.5301

NeryK.5301

But one thing can’t be denied. For the love of god, FIX the bugs with the skills. PLEASE. Backpack generator does NOTHING, and turrets STILL fire at whatever they feel like.

You might want to pick other examples. Backpack regenerator does work, and it always did. It grants you passive health regeneration (NOT the regeneration boon, so it stacks with it for even greater healing), you just do not see the regeneration ticking until you take damage.

As for turrets… Pet AI in general is perfectible (ask rangers and necros), but turrets have serious design issues regarding use outside of sPvP, but I would not call these bugs.

Also, not using kits auto-attack ? Grenadier and Flamethrower builds would like a word with you I think. Hell, since you seem to like providing support and use elixir gun, you could spam Tranquilizer Dart for perma-weakness on hard-hitting targets (also our best single-target bleed application).

I like this job. I like it !

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Posted by: Isslair.4908

Isslair.4908

About Super Elixir:

Try it in AC exp and watch whole party die to aoe because they’re forced to stay in one place in front of Kholer\Howler\Colossus.

Try it in cof p2 where whole party needs to be separated for the last boss.

Try it in arah to see how Lupicus kills whole party with one skill.

Try it in fire shaman fractal and get a fire rain on top of you all.

Try it in cliffside fractal and die from agony cause you can’t evade the wells.

I think you get my meaning.

EU Aurora Glade

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

As have been said already it’s not that hard to get a team to stay where you can heal them with a bit of communication.
And of course there’s bosses where standing around is a bad idea.
What some people seem to think however is that I’m trying to put forth SE as some sort of camping circle where you can just stand and be okay all the time.
Absurd. Timing is VERY important. Putting them down when the boss is likely to just aoe the whole effect to smithereens equals a waste effort.
And sometimes it’s very good at also keeping yourself alive so you can keep whatever it is occupied when teammates need help
And Kardiamond, I’ve never said it’s OP. I wonder why ya ever felt that I did? I haven’t even said it’s the best or anything. It’s simply very competent healing that let’s you stay alive longer. If that’s a benefit or not depends on what you do with that extra time. Just standing around without fighting back and trying to exploit the situation makes it useless, of course.

Have tried it in cof P2. Worked.
Have tried it vs Lupicus. Worked, although not in phase 2 where you can’t stand still.
Tried it vs the fire shaman. Worked, assuming you don’t place it right before a fire rain.
Tried it in cliffside, and ironically what got us was not the wells at all, rather those aoe flashes that you really get no time to avoid.
Tried it vs Colossus and Howler, put them BEHIND the dang thing. As for Kholer he’s a never stand still fight – Unless of course I just choose to root him for 15 secs, woooh.

As for PvP it has it’s uses, makes defending a point a lot easier or let’s people attack a gate in wvwvw longer before they have to heal.
And since both impacts heal a condition it’s also very good at countering that.
And contrary to what some people seem to think, I can confirm that condition removal finishers work with it, as do blast skills for retaliation.
That’s actually offering a LOT for a skill that you can use every 10th second.
Neryk, tranqualizer dart it absolutely useful, but it’s a matter of what I’m there to do. Remember, my spammable heal comes from my bombs, so if I’m in complete heal mode I can’t even use elixir gun.
If it’s a fight where people are not staying in circles (oh woe) or they do fine with just tripple instead of quadruple heals I whip out that gun and start weakening.
But some bosses have such ridiculous resistence so that weakness just goes away before I can even apply it again.

(edited by Oxstar.7643)

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Posted by: nofo.8469

nofo.8469

This coming from a stubborn tourney engineer.

Engineer is only ok in SPvP because of the amount of knockbacks he has, nothing else.

Knockbacks are borderline useless in PvE, as such saying engineers are sub-par in PvE would be the understatement of the year. Those healing numbers you listed are not big, just saying. If healing power scaled better engineers would be fine healers, but as it stands at the moment stacking healing power is a terrible idea for any class, engineer included. Actually on tourney condition thieves its ok, but nothing else.

Engineer as a class is flawed, effective range is close to melee range yet our class strength is being able to knock targets away from us?

Troll class design right there. Still fun to play though.

(edited by nofo.8469)

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Posted by: Isslair.4908

Isslair.4908

Have tried it in cof P2. Worked.

How?
You need to have 4 party members standing all around the chamber to kill acolytes. So at max you could’ve gotten 2 people in se. We’re talking about support, not self-healing, right?

Have tried it vs Lupicus. Worked, although not in phase 2 where you can’t stand still.

Well, duh. Phase 1 is faceroll without any dificulties. Phase 2 is what this boss is all about.

Tried it vs the fire shaman. Worked, assuming you don’t place it right before a fire rain.

Do you have some kind of boss-cd addon? How do you know if it is “right before”. And he uses his fire rain or PBAOE more often then once per 10 seconds.
I dunno, maybe if you drop se, make it heal 500 health on 2 people and call it “support” then it works. But why take useless no-damage support engi for this if dps guardian can do this on whole party with every other crit.

Tried it in cliffside, and ironically what got us was not the wells at all, rather those aoe flashes that you really get no time to avoid.

Yeah, that’s why you need to be spread out. Not clamped together. Trying your team to stand in one spot is just an unnecessary risk with very little returns.

Tried it vs Colossus and Howler, put them BEHIND the dang thing.

So that means that at least one player is facetanking the boss AND taking damage, while whole team stands behind and out of harms way to get healed? Can you see the flawed logic?

You can continue to dream about outstanding engi support. But it’s just not designed to work with GW2 dungeons.

EU Aurora Glade

(edited by Isslair.4908)

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

And since it has been requested, here are the healing numbers from elixir gun, completely without healing power and augumented only by ten points into tools for kit refinement.
403 impact heal
148 second tick
138 second tick healing mist
As for bombs, I’m sorry, but it’s IMPOSSIBLE to deduce base heal since you need 30 points into tools (300+ healing power) to make them heal you.
It might help to know though that I get 458 healing power from my gear, 179 from my rifle, then 445 from my accessories. That’s 1082 then 300 from traits. 1382.

As for toughness that’s 224 from gear, 128 from rifle, and 316 from accessories. And 300 from trait. That’s 668.

Well, that should cover up all my healing stats. Have fun.

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

Isslair. 1. It helped when everybody started fosucing the eternal flame, because the thing DOES defend itself.
2. Worked well in phase 3 as well.
3. Anyone with a decent sense of timing can do it. Before or after, really. I didn’t say it’s what I do – I go more for healing my entire team up AFTER they roll out of the aoe because some always wound up taking heavy damage anyways, and you have enough time to get the full effect from it.
4. Yes, standing in one spot is not good. In this particular case it was chiefly for keeping myself alive and keeping others alive when they tried to res fallen party members.
5. I never said anyone stood in the face of that spirit scream, that would be plain dumb.
However, melee teammates will attack the backside if they know what they’re doing, but they still end up taking damage from the minions or falling rocks, and in some cases, even that scream because the hitboxes might be somewhat bugged, lag, etc. So it’s very handy because it lessens the danger they face in melee, plus retaliation, so they don’t have to switch to ranged where they do less damage.
And of course if a teammate desperately need healing and the boss is occupied with someone else it’s useful.

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Posted by: Daigle.8497

Daigle.8497

And since it has been requested, here are the healing numbers from elixir gun, completely without healing power and augumented only by ten points into tools for kit refinement.
403 impact heal
148 second tick
138 second tick healing mist
As for bombs, I’m sorry, but it’s IMPOSSIBLE to deduce base heal since you need 30 points into tools (300+ healing power) to make them heal you.
It might help to know though that I get 458 healing power from my gear, 179 from my rifle, then 445 from my accessories. That’s 1082 then 300 from traits. 1382.

As for toughness that’s 224 from gear, 128 from rifle, and 316 from accessories. And 300 from trait. That’s 668.

Well, that should cover up all my healing stats. Have fun.

We don’t get stats from weapons while using the Elixir gun kit, by the way.

Grand total for the Super Elixir is 1203.

Also, it’s not entirely impossible to deduce base heal for the elixir bombs:

Figure out how much Healing power you get without armor, then put the armor on and figure out how much the bombs heal you with the armor.

It should be a linear scaling, so you should GENERALLY be able to figure out the rate of the scaling as well as its base.

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

And since it has been requested, here are the healing numbers from elixir gun, completely without healing power and augumented only by ten points into tools for kit refinement.
403 impact heal
148 second tick
138 second tick healing mist
As for bombs, I’m sorry, but it’s IMPOSSIBLE to deduce base heal since you need 30 points into tools (300+ healing power) to make them heal you.
It might help to know though that I get 458 healing power from my gear, 179 from my rifle, then 445 from my accessories. That’s 1082 then 300 from traits. 1382.

As for toughness that’s 224 from gear, 128 from rifle, and 316 from accessories. And 300 from trait. That’s 668.

Well, that should cover up all my healing stats. Have fun.

We don’t get stats from weapons while using the Elixir gun kit, by the way.

Grand total for the Super Elixir is 1203.

Also, it’s not entirely impossible to deduce base heal for the elixir bombs:

Figure out how much Healing power you get without armor, then put the armor on and figure out how much the bombs heal you with the armor.

It should be a linear scaling, so you should GENERALLY be able to figure out the rate of the scaling as well as its base.

Have fun. And you can swap back to your weapon as soon as the circles are down.

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Posted by: Daigle.8497

Daigle.8497

Bomb healing is 146 base with a .1 scaling.

They have a .5s cast time, as well as a .5s fuse, making them around 1/second.

With quickness, that’s only around 4 bombs every 3 seconds. (Fuse timer is unaffected)

This means that Ele Water staff 1 is still superior.

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Posted by: Lightsbane.9012

Lightsbane.9012

i have 10 points in the tools tree, yet not seeing any cool down reduction. is this already in the bug list?

As quick as the Valkyries ride,
As true as Odin’s spear flies,
There is nowhere to hide.

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

Bomb healing is 146 base with a .1 scaling.

They have a .5s cast time, as well as a .5s fuse, making them around 1/second.

With quickness, that’s only around 4 bombs every 3 seconds. (Fuse timer is unaffected)

This means that Ele Water staff 1 is still superior.

Not by a lot though, and that’s still a worthy addition to the three other aoe heals. And like I said, bombs does a lot more damage and offer some cc as well.

Lightsbane, yes.

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Posted by: Oxstar.7643

Oxstar.7643

This coming from a stubborn tourney engineer.

Engineer is only ok in SPvP because of the amount of knockbacks he has, nothing else.

Knockbacks are borderline useless in PvE, as such saying engineers are sub-par in PvE would be the understatement of the year. Those healing numbers you listed are not big, just saying. If healing power scaled better engineers would be fine healers, but as it stands at the moment stacking healing power is a terrible idea for any class, engineer included. Actually on tourney condition thieves its ok, but nothing else.

Engineer as a class is flawed, effective range is close to melee range yet our class strength is being able to knock targets away from us?

Troll class design right there. Still fun to play though.

Despite what you say I’m STILL doing pretty good both PvE and PvP wise.
Instead of crunching numbers I suggest you try it yourself, because really, there don’t see to be any other way to make people think beyond the fotm and anti-fotm.

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Posted by: tigirius.9014

tigirius.9014

But one thing can’t be denied. For the love of god, FIX the bugs with the skills. PLEASE. Backpack generator does NOTHING, and turrets STILL fire at whatever they feel like.

You might want to pick other examples. Backpack regenerator does work, and it always did. It grants you passive health regeneration (NOT the regeneration boon, so it stacks with it for even greater healing), you just do not see the regeneration ticking until you take damage.

As for turrets… Pet AI in general is perfectible (ask rangers and necros), but turrets have serious design issues regarding use outside of sPvP, but I would not call these bugs.

Also, not using kits auto-attack ? Grenadier and Flamethrower builds would like a word with you I think. Hell, since you seem to like providing support and use elixir gun, you could spam Tranquilizer Dart for perma-weakness on hard-hitting targets (also our best single-target bleed application).

backpack regen doesn’t even get a buff from the +healing on your gear, it ticks 120 hitpoints per second, trust me I know, I used it and all of the other heal skills until I got tired of not being effective at healing.

I have all tier 6 karma healing gear on with 1300 healing rating, you would think that would actually make a difference right? nope, I put on my gear for DPS (condi damage) and my heals are almost exactly the same on EG as when I am wearing the other stuff. So yeah we definitely have room for fixes because these abilities suck in their current state, they need to scale with our gear in “every” aspect of the game, not just dps.

The only thing that was remotely a saving grace they just nerfed as well, the AOE zone heal. Now it barely does anything to keep up with the damage output of mobs much less veterans and champs.

Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!

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Posted by: Brinson.7289

Brinson.7289

You have no idea how balanced the engineer is if you do not play tPVP. [Most Of]The best players of each class show off their skills there. There is less zerg than wvw and everyone is on an even playing field stats wise.

WvW will tell you NOTHING about balance. Do not watch a video someone made in WvW and say “way engineers do have viable builds”.
1. No one ever makes videos when they lose a fight against a good player.
2. WvW uses PvE gear [some people do not have the optimal build they want yet.]
3. Players are upleveled. Killing players who do not have all their skills/traits/gear is not classy.
4. Any and everyone joins WvW whether they are good or not. [Try playing a couple paid PVP tournaments then come and speak about the engineer. Bad players don’t waste their time in this corner of the game.]
5. If you say engineers are fine: Tell us what your experience is. Do you play WvW, sPVP, tPVP, Paid PVP, FoTM (aka PvE).

I play my engineer in all avenues. I play my Engi using heal\condi\tough gear. Elixir gun, Infused Bombs and toolkit are my choices. Pistol\Shield for my real weapons.

WvW: I don’t have to die if I don’t want to. I can block for 7s while moving with perma swiftness. There is no fun when most people run away or zerg. I like to showcase my skill against good opponents and there aren’t many to find here.
tPVP: [I dont do sPvP] Start of the match I go straighter to the other teams’ point and take it. Bunker down and have my roamers support me. Other team is always caught off guard but if there is a mesmer with roaming theif on their end; Engi is always toast. Other combinations of two players and I can survive for a few seconds waiting for backup. [A player’s skill using the class\skills\traits available make THE most difference in this game mode.]
FoTM: Mostly pugged up to Lv14. It is starting to get REALLY dangerous. You can’t sit in your precious SubparElixir for 10s to heal up…Trash pulls are crazy stupid for my build. You Need To Move At All Times Or Die. Boss fights are easy and never have a problem staying alive. Run in > drop both SEs and regen from the tool kit > drop smoke bomb > Confuse combo from Bomb+Toolkit+Pistol [2k confusion damage per attack]> drop fire bomb and throw wrench through it > drop as many bombs as you can before getting to half health > retreat + medkit heals.

In my experience the Engineer is not completely destroyed. They need to not be nerf’d next patch and instead have their bugs fixed. They need to have their traits reworked so that the whole thing makes sense. They need turrets to be mobile or remove the CD when picking them up. They need to not be nerf’d when we get weapon stats on kits. They need to not be nerf’d. Seriously.

\-\ Poquito (Engineer) /-/ Tarnished Coast
Not Sure If Serious [BZNZ] ||| Cynical [CYN]