Guild Wars 2

Hi all,

I was a long term sceptic of the class, but I’ve recently started an engineer and so far I’m loving it.

A thought has occurred, though. How does an engineer fare in high end PvE? What sort of build is viable, and what are some important gameplay tips?

I’ve tried googling, but no specific answers yet.

Engineers are in a very good place. Ice bow is still ice bow, so you tend to prefer having an elementalist over an engineer, but there’s absolutely nothing wrong with running guard/mesmer/war/engi/ele in high-end fractals and dungeons.

Really our usefulness comes in the form of sustained DPS. In a lot of dungeons where bosses are downed in 20 seconds or less, this isn’t quite so obvious. But against bosses like Grawl Shaman or Mai Trin, where fights last quite a bit longer—and especially in Shaman’s case where cleave is a huge aspect of successful runs—engineers are supreme.

The condi engineer currently has the highest DPS in the game.

Knox.8962:

The condi engineer currently has the highest DPS in the game.

Four ice bows will still drop most bosses faster than the time it takes for a condi engi to ramp up his damage.

Just something to keep in mind.

Condi engy passes the icebow ele around 20s into the fight. Obviously the combination of 2 icebows will surpass the engy DPS.

Knox.8962:

The condi engineer currently has the highest DPS in the game.

Would like to see build and rotation for that:-)

Rozbuska.5263:

Knox.8962:

The condi engineer currently has the highest DPS in the game.

Would like to see build and rotation for that:-)

prolly this with slight variations, ie maybe inventions over tools, maybe reactive lenses over sd cuz sd is painful, either balth rune + choice of flat damage sigils or aristocracy + smoldering and bursting/malice/corruption.

but the general idea is that fire bomb + IA + napalm + nades 2 + pistol 4 left unchecked are prolly something like 10k dps by themselves with no buffs. hell you could be in dire gear and those would be like 10k dps.

insanemaniac.2456:

Rozbuska.5263:

Knox.8962:

The condi engineer currently has the highest DPS in the game.

Would like to see build and rotation for that:-)

prolly this with slight variations, ie maybe inventions over tools, maybe reactive lenses over sd cuz sd is painful, either balth rune + choice of flat damage sigils or aristocracy + smoldering and bursting/malice/corruption.

but the general idea is that fire bomb + IA + napalm + nades 2 + pistol 4 left unchecked are prolly something like 10k dps by themselves with no buffs. hell you could be in dire gear and those would be like 10k dps.

Problem is its not sustain dps

Hmm…lots of speculation on condi engineer without much of any proof to back it up. Would be nice to see someone flesh out that argument better.

I would say, however, that yes, Engineer is great at high end PvE, but you’ll have to bear in mind that doing well in this content often involves a greater array of your skills. If your group doesn’t have much in the way of projectile destruction/reflects, break out Elixir U for the toolbelt skill. Just be aware that you have the potential to get Smoke Screen instead of Wall of Reflection, which only blocks projectiles instead of reflecting them. Because of this, you’re better off letting a guardian or mesmer reflect projectiles when possible.

Might stacking is something that engineers do well. Whether you run a condi or power build, you’ll help your group a lot by dropping fire fields and blasting them.

Also, you should learn how to effectively combo blasts into a smoke bomb to stealth a group. This takes a bit of practice in order to get a decent duration without wasting cooldowns.

Finally, engis are also great in content such as fractals for bringing blinds. An ele with sandstorm is probably ideal since they can bring a large pulsing AoE blind that doesn’t leave a combo field (which could obstruct a fire field), but if your group doesn’t have this or if it’s on cooldown, you can use Mortar 4 to provide a large blind field as well.

Dahkeus.8243:

Hmm…lots of speculation on condi engineer without much of any proof to back it up. Would be nice to see someone flesh out that argument better.

Nike did some numbers for condi engineer a couple weeks back, it was the highest condi spec but it fell short to buffed zerk parties, including a zerk engineer. In terms of solo play, or group play where your party is failing to adequately provide group buffing, condi engineer is the best choice for an engineer if burst is not required. It has very good self buffing if you bring aristocracy and a strength sigil, as well as easy blast finishers for 15+ might depending on fire fields sources.

SlyDevil.3952:

Dahkeus.8243:

Hmm…lots of speculation on condi engineer without much of any proof to back it up. Would be nice to see someone flesh out that argument better.

Nike did some numbers for condi engineer a couple weeks back, it was the highest condi spec but it fell short to buffed zerk parties, including a zerk engineer. In terms of solo play, or group play where your party is failing to adequately provide group buffing, condi engineer is the best choice for an engineer if burst is not required. It has very good self buffing if you bring aristocracy and a strength sigil, as well as easy blast finishers for 15+ might depending on fire fields sources.

Ahh, yea, very true. He does seem to believe that it’s not better than power, but it seems to be a pretty good option.

@topic: Engineers are in a very good spot. Even though, we are better in Fractals than in dungeons.

In fractals most bossfights are not just 100-0 things where you can burst with frostbow etc. Most bosses become invulnerable and do some weird stuff :P That’s why engineer shines there more than in dungeons. Blind, stealth and aoe dmg are very important aswell and thiefs just don’t bring as much party dps as the engineer does (say hi to my friend “vulnerability”) while also being able to blind veteran trash. The engineer is a mix of an elementalist and a thief, but also is able to bring enough utility to backup condicleanse, heal, reflection and mightstack. If you ask your party “does anyone have”, you can end the sentence with “ye, the engi has” (unless it’s about stability :< that’s a guard only thing :’D).

In dungeons, another ele will almost always be better. But this statement only matters if you want to do record runs. In every dungeon some other professions are required for record runs, most of the time 3 eles + two others. Yet for speedruns, engineers are perfectly fine.

@condi vs power engi:

I’ve been playing cond sinister and power zerker engi since the patch and condi just has the common problems in dungeons and fractals:

• the initial burst of condi engi is bad, wich makes him obsolete in almost any dungeon already
• a few seconds after the initial burst, the condi dmg shines, but until then, power engi already has a huge dps lead
• when a mob dies, the condis it had and it’s damage are wasted
• condi engi is less flexible (!) when it comes to fractals and swapping skills for lets say elixier U, EG, toolkit, mine etc. most of those skills won’t scale pretty well with conditions either – this leads to be unable to use those skills efficient being unable to boonstrip for example
• power engi can use the full kitten nal of skills, sharpnel for example is no good reason to use grenades, power engi will always deal more damage with any grenade skill – this makes it more worth to attack with nades as a power engi as as a condi engi, wich results into a huge vulnerability stack lead for the power engi, giving it more group dps

Condi engi is a fun thing and it’s something different than the meta. But except for the husks against vine wrath or the grawl shaman in the grawl fractals when he’s blocking, condi engi is just much weaker than power engi. You can post some “sick” 25k bruning on blowtorch to impress the mass, but after playing it for a longer time you realize it’s just 2nd class when it comes to group play. Usining it for soloing dungeons is a different story

I also have a feeling burning damage is getting toned down in the next balance patch, so I’m not sure Sinister is here to stay. Craft an exotic set and leave it at that.

Personally, I just think the rifle offers too much utility to look at things strictly from a damage perspective. Rifle engi is a godsend during Mai Trin with the immobilization on a short CD, and Jump Shot is a more reliable AoE damage skill during Grawl Shaman than Blowtorch is. And then Overcharged Shot is always situationally useful whenever a knockback is called for, like the golems during the final Harpy boss … and Jump Shot can offer that little extra mobility during Snowblind fractal if stealth doesn’t carry the whole way during the final leg run.

I guess it comes down to play style, but I just think the rifle is a better designed weapon overall for utility than dual pistols, which really just offer strictly damage.

Rozbuska.5263:

insanemaniac.2456:

Rozbuska.5263:

Knox.8962:

The condi engineer currently has the highest DPS in the game.

Would like to see build and rotation for that:-)

prolly this with slight variations, ie maybe inventions over tools, maybe reactive lenses over sd cuz sd is painful, either balth rune + choice of flat damage sigils or aristocracy + smoldering and bursting/malice/corruption.

but the general idea is that fire bomb + IA + napalm + nades 2 + pistol 4 left unchecked are prolly something like 10k dps by themselves with no buffs. hell you could be in dire gear and those would be like 10k dps.

Problem is its not sustain dps

err have you played bomb/ft/nades? idk how else to respond to this comment…

Engie is good in PvE.

Power Engies have insane burst damage by cycling through kits constantly which translates into solid sustained damage. The vulnerability stacking from explosions is top-tier as well, easily holding 15 stacks individually.

Not to mention all the other utility we have through CC, buffing, condition removal, blast finishers, combo fields and various skill effects.

Well, never thought I’d say that one Day: Right now dungeons and PvE is the only branch where engineer actually feels viable and useful…oh and fun!

Over the last month I completed an excessive amount of dungeons and fractals running the Sinister+Balthasar burnstacker and the current “Power Grenadier” meta with zerk+Scholar.

Sinister is definately viable for most dungeons but my experience is Power Grenadier still is a lot better and Xyonon summarized it perfectly.
Additionally i gotta say power feels far more rewarding to play. To me its far mor fun to see the huge drop of hp when going through the rota instead just watching burnstacks and keeping burn abilities on cooldown.

Ye Staff ele is still somewhat better (Icebow..lol) but IMO is the most boring class to play in dungeons out of all!

Phineas Poe.3018:

And then Overcharged Shot is always situationally useful whenever a knockback is called for, like the golems during the final Harpy boss

Don’t forget that it also removes movement imparing conditions, wich is pretty useful aswell when you like have to deactivate anything in the thaumanova fractal or have chill / cripple / immo in general. It also get even better when you have stability, negating the knockback

Some condition engy material for reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UeNcqdSJI8

Knox.8962:

Some condition engy material for reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UeNcqdSJI8

DNT’s Nike! knows his stuff, been following his guides for a long time. Never thought I’d hear a condi build out dps’ing power. LOL Note that this guide is for fights lasting 14s or longer. Looking forward to trying this out.

The 14s fight thing basically covers most fights, even in speed clear groups.

Knox.8962:

Some condition engy material for reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UeNcqdSJI8

I like this! I played this myself pretty much the same way, but I felt like it wasn’t that much dmg.

I guess the most deciving part of running a sinister condi build is that we (or I) often forget that we also deal power damage.

The average clear time of bosses in record runs is ~14s or less, in lvl 80 dungeons it’s around 24secs. Ramp up time in pug groups is basically never an issue as condi engineer as long as you’re getting your rotation out. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xpVWsJ9riOC5mqB2LcrZdXCPHIj23vjJUX7RbVPCOpY/edit#gid=0 Nike’s list of kill times.

Xyonon.3987:

Knox.8962:

Some condition engy material for reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UeNcqdSJI8

I like this! I played this myself pretty much the same way, but I felt like it wasn’t that much dmg.

I guess the most deciving part of running a sinister condi build is that we (or I) often forget that we also deal power damage.

Same here on the not thinking it was THAT high, I thought it would be competitive but not 20(almost 21k) potential!

The kicker though, is can you maintain the rotation to perfection? Personally… not even close yet I’m getting there, I’m not bad, but I’d say probably like 70%+ where Power I have down well enough to be confident of 80%+ np. Napkin math on a less optimized setup (what I was working on the first week) had me doing about 10-12k dps taking numbers from the combat log. Gonna be fun working on a new rotation to get down.

Of course, there’s always the intangibles, the things you simply would be insane to try and account for while doing math. The dodges, the blocks, rotating FT Air blast for a reflect, or dropping an Orbital/BoB into a Mortar Water field when heal is down, etc. So gameplay is not paper and all that.

I will say I was pretty impressed/happy when I saw that the ultra defensive P/S w/Toolkit rotation was still coming in as close-ish to the zerker setup if played well. So if you feel the need to play defensive, condi is certainly the way to go it seems.

Not regretting my condi engi at all… until/unless they decide to be dopes and nerf burning.

Jerus.4350:

Not regretting my condi engi at all… until/unless they decide to be dopes and nerf burning.

That’s why I didn’t crafted a condi gear for my guardian. But condi engineer have so much dps than it will certainly be really good even if they nerf burn.

This pic is at the beginning of my engineer’s damage cycle. He often passes 50K damage to boss monsters in dungeons.

Derenek.8931:

This pic is at the beginning of my engineer’s damage cycle. He often passes 50K damage to boss monsters in dungeons.

please take ft 1 off of autoattack :/

Derenek.8931:

This pic is at the beginning of my engineer’s damage cycle. He often passes 50K damage to boss monsters in dungeons.

This will be most accurate reaction:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZxzJGgox_E

lmao, I gotta drink all my potions too…

You condi guys want 20k damage potential? I just hit 60k in one atakck!

Now go to arah and you can get 260k reflects on other classes. Remember to show your combat log when displaying damage potential, bosses have much higher coefficients/power for reflectable skills.

Ignoring the troll for now – what I’m not sure about is what DNT meant with the following sentence:

“after 14 sec, condi engi has higher dps than power engi” – does this mean after 14 sec, it will start to deal more damage per second or is the total dmg higher?

what i mean with this:
lets say power engi does 15k per sec and condi 20k per sec after 14sec:
1. sec = power 15k | condi 1k
2. sec = power 15k | condi 3k
3. sec = power 15k | condi 5k etc.
14. sec = power 15k | condi 16k <- condi deals now more than power
20. sec = power 15k | condi 20k

This is what I understand by the sentence “after 14 sec, condi engi has higher dps than power engi”. But by then the power engi has an insane lead of dps and the fight has to take about another 14 seconds until condi outdamaged power in total dmg.

Or I just misunderstand the sentence. I’ll ask this question to dnt on youtube aswell

Xyonon.3987:

Ignoring the troll for now – what I’m not sure about is what DNT meant with the following sentence:

“after 14 sec, condi engi has higher dps than power engi” – does this mean after 14 sec, it will start to deal more damage per second or is the total dmg higher?

what i mean with this:
lets say power engi does 15k per sec and condi 20k per sec after 14sec:
1. sec = power 15k | condi 1k
2. sec = power 15k | condi 3k
3. sec = power 15k | condi 5k etc.
14. sec = power 15k | condi 16k <- condi deals now more than power
20. sec = power 15k | condi 20k

This is what I understand by the sentence “after 14 sec, condi engi has higher dps than power engi”. But by then the power engi has an insane lead of dps and the fight has to take about another 14 seconds until condi outdamaged power in total dmg.

Or I just misunderstand the sentence. I’ll ask this question to dnt on youtube aswell

Nope but stack bleeding from shrapnel take some time same with burning from fields because it stack up from 1s pulses right?

Xyonon.3987:

Ignoring the troll for now – what I’m not sure about is what DNT meant with the following sentence:

“after 14 sec, condi engi has higher dps than power engi” – does this mean after 14 sec, it will start to deal more damage per second or is the total dmg higher?

….

This is what I understand by the sentence “after 14 sec, condi engi has higher dps than power engi”. But by then the power engi has an insane lead of dps and the fight has to take about another 14 seconds until condi outdamaged power in total dmg.

Or I just misunderstand the sentence. I’ll ask this question to dnt on youtube aswell

The graph shows total damage done/total elapsed time. At any point in the graph, whichever one is higher will have done more total damage up to that point.

The instantaneous DPS for the condi build ramps up quickly, but because the zerker builds open with a massive grenade barrage, it takes roughly 14 seconds for the condi build to catch up in total damage done.

After the 14 second mark, the condi build will continue to do more damage and the lead widens the longer the fight goes.

Got the following answer from DNT:

“At 14 seconds condi will have done equal damage to berserker. And will do more and more damage than berserker each second afterwards to infinity.

A closer to reality breakdown would be looking at total damage done rather than DPS…

1 sec = power 35k condi 7k
5 sec power 100k condi 60k
10 sec power 200k condi 175k
14 sec power 268k condi 268k
20 sec power 340k condi 400k"

So after 14 sec the TOTAL dmg is higher, as Knox said. Then condi might really be a viable option after all!

It is a viable option. Even in record run, on average uplevel boss die in 10-15sec and level 80 bosses die in 20-30sec. And that’s for record run, in pugs run almost all the bosses die after 14second with some exception. The main weakness of a condi engineer would be the Icebow. But againt, in most pug you rarely have 4 icebow and even when you do half the team left them on the ground.

When you have an engi, you probably won’t have a 3rd ele anyways.

Or even a second one. Since most groups run PS warrior that leaves only two slots left for thief and mesmer/guardian. Three slots taken up between engineers and elementalists would be not so great for a lot of dungeons; you’d really only be getting away with that in AC and a couple fractals.

I’ve crafted my exotic Sinister set and I’ll run some fractals with it, but I am wary of investing more than that into it; I’m keeping my ascended gear Berserker.

Derenek.8931:

This pic is at the beginning of my engineer’s damage cycle. He often passes 50K damage to boss monsters in dungeons.

Derenek.8931:

lmao, I gotta drink all my potions too…

You condi guys want 20k damage potential? I just hit 60k in one atakck!

Plz guise l2p.

Taku.6352:

Derenek.8931:

This pic is at the beginning of my engineer’s damage cycle. He often passes 50K damage to boss monsters in dungeons.

Derenek.8931:

lmao, I gotta drink all my potions too…

You condi guys want 20k damage potential? I just hit 60k in one atakck!

Plz guise l2p.

And only with 17 stacks of might! One could only imagine…

Phineas Poe.3018:

Or even a second one. Since most groups run PS warrior that leaves only two slots left for thief and mesmer/guardian. Three slots taken up between engineers and elementalists would be not so great for a lot of dungeons; you’d really only be getting away with that in AC and a couple fractals.

I’ve crafted my exotic Sinister set and I’ll run some fractals with it, but I am wary of investing more than that into it; I’m keeping my ascended gear Berserker.

Engi can take place of the thief quite often and effectively. And, you don’t need a guard/mes for a lot of stuff. Talking optimal, sure, engi is going to be hard pressed to find a spot, but if you only play optimally the content gets pretty boring quick.

Mes, PS War, 2X Staff Ele, 1 Engi could do all the arah paths just fine. Maybe a few less seconds on p1/2 but p3 I could see being just as fast. Fractal wise Thief would have an advantage on Ascalon by a couple seconds if you’re unlucky with the longer paths to the center. Harpy it’d also have an advantage but with some consumables engi is still just fine, without them you might have to play well or kill some stuff… big whoop.

Jerus.4350:

Talking optimal, sure, engi is going to be hard pressed to find a spot, but if you only play optimally the content gets pretty boring quick.

And completing stuff slower or killing trash is more entertaining for you? Engineers don’t have trouble finding a spot. It’s just not their role to replace a thief.

The purpose of this thread is to establish where engineer lies in the current meta. I don’t think it does anyone any benefit by sugar coating it; thieves are preferential to engineers for stealth access in most dungeon paths, and if I had to choose between a thief and an engineer for fractals I would take the thief. That being said, if I had to choose between 2x ele or 1 ele and 1 engi, I’d take the engi.

Unless you enjoy killing trash, you want a thief for Snowblind, Ascalon, Harpy, and Dredge fractals. And when fractals get unlocked beyond 50 and FOTM actually is difficult again, you will see thieves becoming more and more demanded also because of their spammable blinds.

A lot of the higher-end speed run strategies just require a thief. For example, in Dredge the thief stealths the warrior (or whomever) to tank the first button. While the warrior is halfway up the stairs the thief restealths everyone and they move through the door. An engineer just can’t do this because Smoke Bomb is the only smoke field we have outside of combat; it’s not that engineer can’t stealth everybody, it’s just that thief just does it so much more easily and effortlessly.

Phineas Poe.3018:

And completing stuff slower or killing trash is more entertaining for you? Engineers don’t have trouble finding a spot. It’s just not their role to replace a thief.

The purpose of this thread is to establish where engineer lies in the current meta..

WTF lol. Ya taking an engineer make stuff so much slower. Keep stuff in perceptive man. No the purpose of this thread is to answer to the OP, which was which engineer build are good.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Jerus.4350:

Talking optimal, sure, engi is going to be hard pressed to find a spot, but if you only play optimally the content gets pretty boring quick.

And completing stuff slower or killing trash is more entertaining for you? Engineers don’t have trouble finding a spot. It’s just not their role to replace a thief.

The purpose of this thread is to establish where engineer lies in the current meta. I don’t think it does anyone any benefit by sugar coating it; thieves are preferential to engineers for stealth access in most dungeon paths, and if I had to choose between a thief and an engineer for fractals I would take the thief. That being said, if I had to choose between 2x ele or 1 ele and 1 engi, I’d take the engi.

Unless you enjoy killing trash, you want a thief for Snowblind, Ascalon, Harpy, and Dredge fractals. And when fractals get unlocked beyond 50 and FOTM actually is difficult again, you will see thieves becoming more and more demanded also because of their spammable blinds.

A lot of the higher-end speed run strategies just require a thief. For example, in Dredge the thief stealths the warrior (or whomever) to tank the first button. While the warrior is halfway up the stairs the thief restealths everyone and they move through the door. An engineer just can’t do this because Smoke Bomb is the only smoke field we have outside of combat; it’s not that engineer can’t stealth everybody, it’s just that thief just does it so much more easily and effortlessly.

As Thad pointed out. Go reread the OP. He was asking how Engi’s are doing in high end PVE, and well, they’re doing fantastic. Sure we might not be meta, but only 5/8 profession are meta… someone’s going to be left out.

And who says I have to fight a bunch of trash? and is taking literally less than 10 extra seconds enough to whine about? Smoke bomb blasting will give 15s of stealth, follow up with a Toss Elixir S for 5s untraited. You’re at 20s, if you put on short fuse (which I often do) you’re coming out of stealth right as your smoke bomb is coming back up (personally I find it’s usually a second or two off, not sure why, that’s even with more than 5 blasts in the smoke which are wasted). You shouldn’t need more than the 2 but if you do, well you just wait 5s and you’re there. In the end you’re talking about like 10s.

For Harpy you can kill 1 or 2 (depending on spawn) on initial platforms, then stealth the rest of the way up easily if you stick together for use of elixir S, if not well, if we’re actually talking high end play you should have some harpy feathers and what not to stealth yourself or be prepared with blocks/dodging. Second set you can often stealth half way, kill maybe 1 harpy, then stealth the rest with elixer/consumables.

Speaking blinds, this is actually where condi build is nice, you already have your bombs out, the downside is you want shrapnel over siege rounds so less uptime on the Flash shell, but you also have pistol, flamethrower, and grenade blinds. You can cover just fine, if in power build just swap bomb for FT and with siege rounds you’re coverage is pretty fantastic. Not anything I’d complain about, and if you time a streamlined kits with bomb you can us it to pull say ice elementals closer together.

For speedruns, no engi will not likely make an optimal appearance (though aetherblade record has one for a recent record). But, they’re still a very very high quality profession for high end play. They just don’t fill any main niche for the content. They aren’t the best at stealth. They don’t provide the best might/vuln offensive support for most cases (sustained vuln vs burst). They don’t provide the best defensive support. They don’t have the best CC lockdown/burst damage. And, they don’t have portal or other tricks that others can’t do (thief/war mobility). But, we can do a hell of a lot to contribute in each area of this without drastic losses in damage for ones outside our general expertise.

There are some fractals I think an engineer is highly valuable and possibly optimal, I wouldn’t be surprised to see them in speed runs of those once we get the new system.

Either way, Engi can take a spot from a thief or Ele and you can run everything smoothly without much loss. And, it’s not that taking longer or killing a few trash mobs makes things more fun, it’s that if all you do is run the same team composition it becomes dull, and maybe it’s just me, but when I’m so used to running in that perfect setup being a machine that tears through content, when we hiccup and make a mistake it bugs the hell out of me. When I play with different compositions requiring slightly different strategies I feel it makes me a better player as well as a happier player as I’m open to the idea of screw ups because we’re not just grinding it out.

Thaddeus.4891:

WTF lol. Ya taking an engineer make stuff so much slower. Keep stuff in perceptive man.

As usual, people around here are just looking to lash out and not read carefully.

He asked:

Hermos.2389:

How does an engineer fare in high end PvE?

To which I responded, fairly thoroughly:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Engineers are in a very good place. Ice bow is still ice bow, so you tend to prefer having an elementalist over an engineer, but there’s absolutely nothing wrong with running guard/mesmer/war/engi/ele in high-end fractals and dungeons.

Really our usefulness comes in the form of sustained DPS. In a lot of dungeons where bosses are downed in 20 seconds or less, this isn’t quite so obvious. But against bosses like Grawl Shaman or Mai Trin, where fights last quite a bit longer—and especially in Shaman’s case where cleave is a huge aspect of successful runs—engineers are supreme.

I have never once implied that taking an engineer directly slows down a run. What I said was that taking an engineer over a thief means weaker stealth runs. Thieves can fully stealth parties from the entrance of Dredge all the way to the gate, stealth them from the steps all the way to the bomb run, and then Shadow Trap trigger the door, stealthing right up to the next boss. Engineers just simply cannot do this. The same instance I said before about the thief stealthing the warrior and then immediately after stealthing the rest of the party to crash the gate is another example. You can perma stealth with Smoke Bomb, but only every 20 seconds. If there’s anything that needs to be done at an interval shorter than that, like the keg run in CM with the subsequent run past the cannons to the final boss, engineers fall woefully short.

There’s a reason why the standard Metabattle setup has engineer replacing elementalist, not thief. And as I already said in my first post: there is absolutely nothing wrong with not taking a thief at all. But claiming that speed clearing with optimal results is “boring” seems weird when the alternative just means slower runs and killing trash.

This thread isn’t your soap box for talking about your bias toward speed clears; the guy asked a question and I don’t think anyone here is particularly emotional about the state of our profession except you.

Jerus.4350:

There are some fractals I think an engineer is highly valuable and possibly optimal, I wouldn’t be surprised to see them in speed runs of those once we get the new system.

Probably. The question is really how the new mistlock instabilities will work, and if any new fractals will be coming with the expansion. (I’m inclined to think there will be a good number if they’re upping it to 100.)

I will always want an engineer in a Mai Trin or Grawl fractal.

Jerus.4350:

Speaking blinds, this is actually where condi build is nice, you already have your bombs out, the downside is you want shrapnel over siege rounds so less uptime on the Flash shell, but you also have pistol, flamethrower, and grenade blinds. You can cover just fine, if in power build just swap bomb for FT and with siege rounds you’re coverage is pretty fantastic. Not anything I’d complain about, and if you time a streamlined kits with bomb you can us it to pull say ice elementals closer together.

i dunno i feel like id rather have an engi for the role of blind spam than a thief, bomb/nade/ft/mortar all have great blinds, whether condi or power, and condi even gets another one

you wont even notice the difference in field duration as condi over power in the heat of battle, a decent party wrecks trash too quickly everywhere — even in 50 fractals.

i only want a thief more than an engi when the stealth skips get super long.

(its so hard to make good use of magnetic bomb omg)

For fractals, thief is always a weaker option than an engi. Engi has the better dps, has all the blinds aswell and if the blind is not enough then the pt does something wrong anyways. When a thief is forced to spam blinds it’s a huge dps loss, an engi simply throws it in between and has by far the higher group dps (higher raw dps + vuln passive dps). All the stealth skips are easily done by engi aswell and I cannot say how much dmg you can safe by boonstripping protection from mobs. The thief can’t aoe boonstrip at all, only single target with steal on a fairly long cd.

Dungeons is a different story, where most of the time thief is better with the 0 cd smoke field for skips skips and more skips! This has nothing to do with the blind uptime though. Yet it’s not always thief OR engi, they are pretty good together aswell especially in long fights like arah.

It’s not an anti meta rant, just stating my opinion. One that I share with many players I play with. If you just keep doing the same stuff you fall into a slump and get burned out. Maybe it’s not the same for everyone but I’ve seen it often enough that I think fixating on meta is not the way to go. There is “High end PVE” and there is “Playing Meta” two different things. Some of your comments just made me feel the need to reply, no intention of attacking or lashing out.

No argument that Thief > Engi on stealthing. However Engi can get the job done just fine in most situations is all I’m saying. As an alternative to the Speed Run tactic in dredge you can stealth up and left, stealth again and split for button/passing the gate. Clear that and then kill a few dredge and have someone who can teleport go up top while you all move into the middle.

My whole point is just that you can do fine replacing a thief, it may not be optimal but you can do it in most situations just fine, in some not quite as well but still well enough to help a lot. And, grab 2 engis and you can do most everything, only a few SR tricks that can’t be replicated with double Elixir S. War, Guard/Mes, EngiX2, Ele!

Phineas Poe.3018:

As usual, people around here are just looking to lash out and not read carefully.

…

I have never once implied that taking an engineer directly slows down a run. What I said was that taking an engineer over a thief means weaker stealth runs.

Well you said :

And completing stuff slower or killing trash is more entertaining for you?

Maybe a bit of miscommunication here or maybe it’s me that didn’t understood well enough what you wanted to say. No biggie.

It all boils down to this:

A well-played Engineer is well worth having in any Fractal. A poorly-played Engineer is worse than useless, they are dangerous.

Engineers may not be top-end DPS, but they have their uses, and they have more tricks at their disposal at once than any other class I have seen. They can heal, melee, range, AoE or single-target. With the right skills slotted, catching and killing one is two steps from impossible.

Me, personally? I use Flamethrower, Rifle and Mortar with Slick Shoes and Rocket Boots. Works as well in PvE as it does in PvP/WvWvW and makes you very difficult to catch. I also use Bunker Down to help my groupmates without having to actually heal them manually (and those med packs add up FAST).

I do suggest that if you do not have a gaming mouse, though,you get one and learn to use it. Being able to swap kits with a twitch of my thumb is much easier than mucking with a keyboard, especially when dodging backwards while running from a boss because the rest of your group is dead.

Engi’s are top-end DPS, literally only Ele and Thief beat them, and even that’s not always. But, to get that you need the right setup and fingers that won’t tie in knots as you play Liszt on your keyboard.