Guild Wars 2

Hello, I have a concern about the new patch release, reducing the engineer’s healing turret’s healing ability. In the GW2Guru State of the Game developer video.
“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pn_t43Xd18”
Karl Mclain pointed out a very serious issue that engineers were abusing the healing turret by dropping it, and picking it up for the heal. He also stated that the healing turret’s passive heal was going to get buffed. But, instead both the passive and regular heal from the turret were reduced heavily. I have a solution to this problem while still balancing the game. You can balance out the time it takes to deploy the turret and the healing. For example, instead of 20 seconds for the recharge for the turret, you can make it 25 seconds, and buffing the heal back to normal, or close to it. This would promote people using the turret’s passive heal, instead of picking the turret up, and setting it down.

Now we drop it, overcharge it, explode it and move on.

Zenguy.6421:

Now we drop it, overcharge it, explode it and move on.

No, now we just use something else. Using the healing turret at this point is for aesthetic purposes only. You get a better use heal and passive heal just running the elixir. :-\

condition removal on a 15-20 second cooldown?

“on demand” ish water field?

purely aesthetic?

I agree with Nakoda on this. The 15 second CD gives you a small heal, condition removal, and a 3 second water field.

Also count in the fact that the CD on the toolbelt has been lowered too.

Even if they reduced the initial healing, this turret is better by far.

I agree that the CD is lower, but they lowered the heal it gives you by a lot, by doing this, the developers contradicted what their goal was. They wanted people to stop dropping their healing turret, using the Cleansing Burst, then removing their turret. Instead they wanted the engineers keeping their healing turret out for the regen it gives. The proof is in the video. If they want people to have their turrets out, they need to buff the regen.

Sporadicus.1028:

I agree with Nakoda on this. The 15 second CD gives you a small heal, condition removal, and a 3 second water field.

Also count in the fact that the CD on the toolbelt has been lowered too.

Even if they reduced the initial healing, this turret is better by far.

Miles better. I really wish people would TRY things before they complain about them, eh?

SAME heal, just now half of it goes to our group. Water field is still there (and easier to see!). AOE 2 condition removal with every heal.

Why are people so quick to complain? Oh yeah, we’re Engineers and this game sucks and the devs are morons and don’t know how to make a game.

People know a problem is exists, but do not bother looking at the evidence provided. They say that nothing changed, or it is not bad without looking at the proof. The Developer Karl Mclain said himself that the true problem with the healing turret is that people just drop it, use cleansing burst, then pick it up. By lowering the turret’s regen, this problem is only promoted.

I don’t have much faith in Karl based on his remarks in the “245 days” thread that is now closed. He did the exact opposite of what he wanted to with this change.

That’s good for us because the turret is better now than it was, but it was clearly not the intention.

I think it should just heal for ~1k every time it pulses, and make it pulse about every 5 seconds while it is out. Then it would be more beneficial to leave it out. Overcharge can stay the same or bump the cooldown up and give it stability too. I would rather it stay how it is now, but since it’s pretty clear it’s not done being fiddled with this isn’t a direction I would be upset to see the Healing Turret go.

I agree how the base heal is, and how the cleansing burst is, but it would be more balanced if they had the regen how it was before the update, or close to it. This update made the engineer’s healing turret’s regen a lot lower. I understand the direction the developers are going with it, but it is still not fixing the problem. If they fixed the regen on the healing turret, more people would keep their healing turret out. I understand some engineers do not use their healing turret’s regen for team support, but the ones that do, this cripples them. And Karl even says that he would want the turret as a team support, and to have it out for the team.

These changes only work on paper and sometimes in arena modes, the timings and requirements just don’t work well in WvW with the aoe splash damage and lag flying around. Also the idea of ‘trying to protect your turret’ is just hysterically out of touch. Stack problems and delayed to maybe never healing isn’t a good change.

If all turrets were aoe immune, then finally turrets could start to have any potential in WvW.

Phil.6123:

I agree how the base heal is, and how the cleansing burst is, but it would be more balanced if they had the regen how it was before the update, or close to it. This update made the engineer’s healing turret’s regen a lot lower. I understand the direction the developers are going with it, but it is still not fixing the problem. If they fixed the regen on the healing turret, more people would keep their healing turret out. I understand some engineers do not use their healing turret’s regen for team support, but the ones that do, this cripples them. And Karl even says that he would want the turret as a team support, and to have it out for the team.

I’m confused by this. The Regen healing did not change, it just won’t stack unless you keep the turret out. You can use cleansing burst if you leave it out more often as well compared to someone who detonates Healing Turret every 20s. Only slightly more, but still. This update helped BOTH kinds of turret users, but the “problem” is that it’s even better than ever to just blow it up each time you use it.

That doesn’t mean it’s bad to leave it out, it’s better both ways, it’s just overall more beneficial to blow it up for most people.

Yeah Adamantium, they lowered the regen and the healing for everything. Every healing aspect the turret had was lowered, they just lowered the time for cleansing burst. By lowering the regen, it promotes players picking up their turret after they use cleansing burst. That’s why they should make the regen back to the way it was or close to it.

Honestly, I have been loving the new healing turret. I found it lackluster before bc the condition removal was not reliable whatsoever.

Now by double dropping it so the overcharge triggers right away then blowing it up you have a nice size heal on a 20s cooldown that removes 2 conditions and leaves a 3s water field.

I have been working on tourny builds for a while that avoid elixirs bc I find the play style of elixir builds very boring and prefer a kit heavy build. Running med kit has always been the weakness and I have to compensate by using sigil of purity, etc

Today I ran my usual build but swapped med kit for healing turret and had great success with it, definitely felt like it strengthened my build, not weakened it.

In WvW…forget about it, all our Engis will probably be using this now. Coordinated blasting inside the huge water field has been amazing already.

In tPvP, it seems pretty good now… so much that I would say we can finally have some decent condition removal without having to take CF409.

I think this might actually open up a few more viable builds after people play with it for a few days.

aydenunited.5729:

In tPvP, it seems pretty good now… so much that I would say we can finally have some decent condition removal without having to take CF409.

I think this might actually open up a few more viable builds after people play with it for a few days.

Completely agree.

Another note is the water field being 3s is long enough to pull multiple blasts inside of it for more healing.

Cleansing burst always removed conditions, it just did not say it in the text. Actually it use to remove all conditions, now it only removes two conditions. Also if you want to remove conditions use Elixir C. People who are liking the healing turret for the condition removal did not know that cleansing burst use to remove all conditions.

Phil.6123:

Cleansing burst always removed conditions, it just did not say it in the text. Actually it use to remove all conditions, now it only removes two conditions. Also if you want to remove conditions use Elixir C. People who are liking the healing turret for the condition removal did not know that cleansing burst use to remove all conditions.

It was in the original tool-tip, and it works much differently now. People who are liking the turret now are realizing that we now have a decent way to remove conditions at a relatively moderate pace without having to sacrifice a single thing except the overall heal of the turret placement. It’s actually a pretty good tradeoff considering without CF409, conditions would destroy us in most builds since the nerfs to Kit Refinement on EG and FT.

I’m no pro but this feels “good”. I like it.

Phil.6123:

Cleansing burst always removed conditions, it just did not say it in the text. Actually it use to remove all conditions, now it only removes two conditions. Also if you want to remove conditions use Elixir C. People who are liking the healing turret for the condition removal did not know that cleansing burst use to remove all conditions.

It removed all conditions, was VERY unreliable, and had a 60s cooldown.

The water field also was so short that it was not possible to drop, cleanse, detonate, and get the water field explosion.

The new combo can be done every 20 seconds. You can even pull off 2-3 blasts inside the field before its over.

So the people who think this is a buff do not realize that they got nerfed even worse. The people who do drop their turret and pick it up after cleansing burst do not realize the turret is giving them 50% less healing and are only getting 2 conditions removed instead of all conditions removed. The people who have their turret out for their teammates, those teammates will also have 50% less healing on everything and will only have 2 of their conditions removed instead of all of them.

Phil.6123:

So the people who think this is a buff do not realize that they got nerfed even worse.

Pretty much sums up most of these QQ forums doesn’t it? If you don’t think the sky is falling you don’t know what you’re talking about!

I’ve already seen this break down but let’s try it again…

It is not healing less considering that before you could choose to either detonate it in water field for ~1k healing or use Cleansing Burst for ~1k healing. That was added onto your 5k self heal from dropping the turret. 5k self + 1k AOE = 6k total. If you chose to use Cleansing Wave instead you get to remove 2 conditions but this was only once per minute. You cannot add both the old Cleansing Wave and a water field burst because it did not work that way.

Now you get 2.5k from dropping it. Cleansing Burst (which you will always use now) adds another 2.5k but in AOE as well as 2 condition removal. Already better than before, but wait there’s more! The water field is still intact, giving another 1k AOE when you detonate it (oh and this water field persists after detonation allowing more time for other blast finishers). 2.5k self + 2.5k AOE + 1k AOE = 6k total, better effectively because you are giving more healing to everyone else. You get both the Cleansing Wave and the burst now. Add in the greatly reduced cooldown on the water field + regen from tool belt and it’s not even close.

Adamantium.3682:

Phil.6123:

So the people who think this is a buff do not realize that they got nerfed even worse.

Pretty much sums up most of these QQ forums doesn’t it? If you don’t think the sky is falling you don’t know what you’re talking about!

I’ve already seen this break down but let’s try it again…

It is not healing less considering that before you could choose to either detonate it in water field for ~1k healing or use Cleansing Burst for ~1k healing. That was added onto your 5k self heal from dropping the turret. 5k self + 1k AOE = 6k total. If you chose to use Cleansing Wave instead you get to remove 2 conditions but this was only once per minute. You cannot add both the old Cleansing Wave and a water field burst because it did not work that way.

Now you get 2.5k from dropping it. Cleansing Burst (which you will always use now) adds another 2.5k but in AOE as well as 2 condition removal. Already better than before, but wait there’s more! The water field is still intact, giving another 1k AOE when you detonate it (oh and this water field persists after detonation allowing more time for other blast finishers). 2.5k self + 2.5k AOE + 1k AOE = 6k total, better effectively because you are giving more healing to everyone else. You get both the Cleansing Wave and the burst now. Add in the greatly reduced cooldown on the water field + regen from tool belt and it’s not even close.

Stop talking logic, obviously Anet hates Engineers and wants to make us suffer with constant, menial nerfs before they delete the profession in it’s entirety.

Phil.6123:

Yeah Adamantium, they lowered the regen and the healing for everything. Every healing aspect the turret had was lowered, they just lowered the time for cleansing burst. By lowering the regen, it promotes players picking up their turret after they use cleansing burst. That’s why they should make the regen back to the way it was or close to it.

I see no patch notes of lowering the potency of regeneration across the board, and mine is still ticking at what it always did (~130).

Phil.6123:

Cleansing burst always removed conditions, it just did not say it in the text. Actually it use to remove all conditions, now it only removes two conditions. Also if you want to remove conditions use Elixir C. People who are liking the healing turret for the condition removal did not know that cleansing burst use to remove all conditions.

It always removed 2 conditions.

Adamantium, instead of looking at the hard numbers, you are just favoring the people who detonate their turrets. You are actually proving what the developer was trying to avoid. If you actually read what I wrote above and watched the actual proof. You wouldn’t be going on these topics and discriminate the people who has the hard facts. Yes your equation is correct, but what you are not adding is the regen was a constant heal, the heal you are talking about is only a one time heal. So your equation would be amazing if it would do more healing then a 20 second regen with the old equation.

??? Our conversation started from you replying to a post of mine explicitly stating it is better leaving the turret out now compared to what it was. Overall it is better to drop & detonate still, which I also agreed was not the intended outcome, but if you still prefer to leave it out it is also better in that respect purely from the huge Cleansing Wave buff.

Here it is if you missed it:

Adamantium.3682:

I’m confused by this. The Regen healing did not change, it just won’t stack unless you keep the turret out. You can use cleansing burst if you leave it out more often as well compared to someone who detonates Healing Turret every 20s. Only slightly more, but still. This update helped BOTH kinds of turret users, but the “problem” is that it’s even better than ever to just blow it up each time you use it.

That doesn’t mean it’s bad to leave it out, it’s better both ways, it’s just overall more beneficial to blow it up for most people.

You argue that the Healing Turret is worse. This is not true, whether you are evaluating it just by leaving it out or dropping and detonating. Both are improved, but most people prefer to drop and detonate (probably because the turret is going to die in a couple seconds anyways… THAT’S what they need to fix).

Adamantium, the regen of the turret is less. Look at the numbers for yourself. I am just talking about the regen. They lowered the regen.

Okay, I admit, cleansing burst once every 15 seconds is great, but the regular regen for the turret was lowered bad. Before the patch, my regen for the turret was a lot higher. I am actually getting less hp a second with this new patch with the turret, even without the cleansing burst. I have the same gear and everything. Because the regen is lowered by about 50% you are losing 50% more regen per second.

I honestly don’t know what to tell you, but I just logged in to make sure I wasn’t feeding you misinformation without checking it. My regeneration is the same as it always was. 138 health per tick.

The duration is shorter if you pick it up but that doesn’t even bother me since there’s just so many sources of regen you should have it permanently in a group. It sounds like you are unaffected by that change anyways if you’re leaving it out so I really don’t know why you’re seeing the regeneration heal for less. Are you in a level 80 zone? Are you poisoned? Do you have enough health lost to let it tick a few times without healing you to full? Do you have the exact same healing power (which shouldn’t really make that big of a difference anyways)?

Here is my proof on the wiki itself
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Healing_Turret&oldid=537306
The regen is nerfed and the healing is nerfed bad.

Phil.6123:

Adamantium, the regen of the turret is less. Look at the numbers for yourself. I am just talking about the regen. They lowered the regen.

The regen wasn’t lowered. Only the duration of it. This was to compensate for the current reality. You used to get around 10s of it pre-patch, but that was because the Turret triggered every 10s.
So now you have a 3s regen buff every 3s, because a 10s regen trigger every 3s would be silly. You could be in the far point in tPvP and just sit with that Turret for a full 30s. That would give you 100s of regen with 0% Boon Duration. For my build that focuses on healing, that would give me 25700.

Phil.6123:

Okay, I admit, cleansing burst once every 15 seconds is great, but the regular regen for the turret was lowered bad. Before the patch, my regen for the turret was a lot higher. I am actually getting less hp a second with this new patch with the turret, even without the cleansing burst. I have the same gear and everything. Because the regen is lowered by about 50% you are losing 50% more regen per second.

Double check your armor/amulet or something. For you to be regenerating less hp/s, either regeneration’s HP scaling would have had to change or you simply have less Healing Power than the last time you checked.

Also here is proof for how the nerfed cleansing burst, not by the CD, but the condition removal
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Cleansing_Burst&oldid=537307

For everyone that wants to see the proof. The before and after patch
Before: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Healing_Turret&oldid=537306
After: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Turret
The regen is lowered BAD

Phil.6123:

Also here is proof for how the nerfed cleansing burst, not by the CD, but the condition removal
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Cleansing_Burst&oldid=537307

According to people who have actually used the old version, it has only ever cleansed two conditions even prepatch. I can’t personally attest to this, but with multiple people saying this, you can simply consider this a tooltip fix rather than a nerf.

So the CR stays the same, is a lot more instant, had its heal effectively doubled to compensate the halved heal of the initial drop, and has a CD reduction.

Regeneration has not changed. The Wiki shows the total amount, which will of course be less because the duration is less. I’m starting to doubt if you’ve even logged into the game to try it, even though you hassled me for just “going with the numbers” it looks like all you’ve done is glanced at the wiki before making sweeping conclusions about the Regeneration boon being changed. I’ve tried to explain nicely that this is simply not true. I (and it looks like others) have logged into the game and seen that the Regeneration boon has not changed. You’ve been spreading this misinformation on many threads now, and it’s extremely detrimental to people who don’t have time to do the research themselves. You’re doing the profession and anyone who comes to these threads a disservice by continuing to spread this.

My goodness, and we wonder why the Engineer is misunderstood.

Adamantium, just accept your wrong. You got told, time to accept and move on.

Nilix, it is in the wiki itself and I know this from experience. If you do not want to accept it being on the wiki or from experience I do not know what to tell you. You can view the history of the wiki on cleansing burst, it has cured conditions ever since.

Adamantium it is on the wiki itself read the before and after. The proof is all there.

You have also been told in this thread and many others (by other people besides me) that it has always cured 2 conditions. I don’t care what the tooltip says, people who played the Engineer and used the Healing Turret know how it worked.

I really don’t know if you’re just trying to troll us now, but quoting the wiki as proof of anything is a red flag to me. Play the game and you’ll know what the skills do without the wiki.

So what you are trying to say is everyone who reads the wiki is misinformed. The wiki shows a history of the recorded skills on Guild Wars 2. It also shows the patch notes and updates. So if you are trying to say that all of these updates, patches, and skills are false, you are the one misinformed.

Phil.6123:

Nilix, it is in the wiki itself and I know this from experience. If you do not want to accept it being on the wiki or from experience I do not know what to tell you. You can view the history of the wiki on cleansing burst, it has cured conditions ever since.

I am listening to experience.

NickDollahZ.5348:

Chaba.5410:

Cleansing Burst tooltip always said it cures all conditions.

And Scopes tooltip says it gives 10% crit chance when you stand still.
It has always removed 2 condition from the 1800+ hrs I have played on my Engineer.

I don’t know WHO to believe. One of you is either lying or don’t know what you’re talking about. And I’d love to listen to the wiki, but it is often unused and unedited in numerous places that I just can’t bring myself to do so. Some of the information might just be there simply because that’s what tooltips say so that’s how it “should” work.

But arguing about what the truth of the past was really doesn’t matter because that’s not the game we live in now. What I want to ask you is why do you think improving the regen would actually make me want to leave the turret out, as opposed to deploy → Overcharge → Detonate

Dude… strawman much? I’m saying that tooltip was wrong, and nearly anyone who used the Healing Turret could confirm this. You clearly lean on the wiki for information more than actually playing the game, as evidenced by your claims of the “Regeneration nerf” as well as this incorrect Healing Turret tooltip.

Nilix.2170:

NickDollahZ.5348:

Chaba.5410:

Cleansing Burst tooltip always said it cures all conditions.

And Scopes tooltip says it gives 10% crit chance when you stand still.
It has always removed 2 condition from the 1800+ hrs I have played on my Engineer.

I don’t know WHO to believe. One of you is either lying or don’t know what you’re talking about.

I don’t believe they contradict each other. Chaba is simply saying that the Healing Turret tooltip said it cured all conditions, but Nick is saying tooltips don’t always reflect functionality, as evidenced by the Scope trait we all know to be bunked. It says one thing and does another (“another” being nothing lol…).

You’re right though, we can never prove how it used to work and the only provable fact here is that it doesn’t matter. You can complain about how it used to be or adapt and learn how to use the change to your advantage.

Adamantium and Nilix, the wiki shows every skill update in the game. When a skill is buffed, nerfed, or changed, it is updated at the wiki. I am very experienced with this class, I have proof and evidence to support me. And Nilix to answer your question, Karl the developer said that he wanted the turret to be a team support and to avoid people abusing dropping it, cleansing burst, and picking it up. The turret was also used for team regen support.

Sentences on the wiki do not always reflect functionality in-game. If you do not agree with this we have nothing left to discuss.

The new Healing Turret is good. Learn to love it, not complain about what used to be.

You don’t play well with others huh? want a hug cutie?

Well I guess we would have to agree to disagree about the wiki informing people with the game. Including the updates, the patches, and the skills on the wiki being updated. If me including these links with before the patch and after was not enough proof for you, I do not know what to tell you, I am not trying to prove something to you, I am proving an argument about the healing turret.

It was a known bug that Healing Turret’s Cleaning Burst did not cure all conditions, it was just two, just like it is now.

gkaare.8576:

snip

• Healing Turret’s Cleansing Burst says it will remove all conditions on use but it only removes 2 conditions. This is a description error. Additionally, Cleansing Burst will occasionally fail to remove any conditions even when you it has definitely activated (visual cue). This only happens in PvE/WvW.

This post was edited two months ago and is stickied at the top of this forum. Please read the stickys.

Adamantium.3682:

I don’t believe they contradict each other. Chaba is simply saying that the Healing Turret tooltip said it cured all conditions, but Nick is saying tooltips don’t always reflect functionality, as evidenced by the Scope trait we all know to be bunked. It says one thing and does another (“another” being nothing lol…).

I wasn’t really referring to Chaba and Nick. I was referring to Nick saying that it removes 2 and Phil saying it removes all. Two different people that swear by two different experiences of the same thing. Someone has to be wrong, but like I said, it really doesn’t matter.

Phil.6123:

1)Adamantium and Nilix, the wiki shows every skill update in the game. When a skill is buffed, nerfed, or changed, it is updated at the wiki. I am very experienced with this class, I have proof and evidence to support me.
2)And Nilix to answer your question, Karl the developer said that he wanted the turret to be a team support and to avoid people abusing dropping it, cleansing burst, and picking it up. The turret was also used for team regen support.

You’re right. It’s done whenever something gets changed. However, I believe this is the first patch-related change that Cleansing Mist has had. It is possible that ArenaNet never addressed the tooltip saying it cures only 2 conditions until just now. It is also possible that no one has ever gone into the Cleansing Mist page and recorded a ‘bug’ saying that it only cures 2 conditions. Probably because most Healing Turret users would detonate it anyway, myself included. There are very few among us equipped with that knowledge. And those who did have the knowledge may not have edited it.

But let’s let that aside.

2)This is what I want to get to. Because I personally disagree with your approach. Karl’s concept was changing the long regen boost (8s regen every 8s) into a shorter burst of regen (3s regen every 3s). Because it’s shorter, you don’t get as much of a benefit by picking it up. The longer it’s around, the longer you enjoy it’s benefits. People that stack boon duration would need to have it out longer because the amount of bonus regen they produce is lessened per wave.

For example: With 50% boon duration 8s of regen becomes 12s, but 3s of regen only because 4.5. That’s 1.5s(which can round down to 1s) as opposed to 4. Which is a base healing difference of 390.

With longer regen times, you’re actually less inclined to care about detonating/picking your turret up, because you have a good amount of regen stacked up. So in truth, lengthening the regen wouldn’t help at all. If anything, it’ll just promote it because 12s of regen is better than 4s. If you REALLY cared about regen, you could have gotten enough boon duration for it to last nearly 15s, which is the amount of time it would take for your turret to come off of cooldown, so you can drop it again. Voila, perma-regen.

I agree with Karl’s thinking: Shorter, swifter bursts promote keeping it out and keeping it alive because you get the bonus more often, and you lose it faster when it’s out of play. The real problem is the fact that they die so fast in the first place. This is why there’s no incentive to keep it out. You are better off practicing how to instant overcharge and detonate, than you are to wait even the three seconds it takes for the second pulse. Because those three seconds are all it takes for you to waste 3-4k HP worth of healing.

one of the reasons i chose NOT to take healing turret in the past is that it did NOT cleanse all conditions, topped off with a kittenty cool down, the medkit4 was a way better alternative.

the new turret is very cool.

I think the 50% reduction was a bug/balance fix, because it stacks, not increases duration, where regeneration was supposed to increase duration per application, not stack.