Guild Wars 2

Hi all

So do you guys think we will get a re-evaluation of the engineer traitline?

We all know that there are some really cool traits but synergy inside some traits are extremely limited. Looking at explosives not running nades for example and the lack of damage when not running nades and/or explosives.

I REALLY think that some of the lines need rearranging and removal of stuff like Explosive decent, adding of condition traits in Fireams and/or explosives for example.

In short do you guys think ANET will at least consider looking at the traits again with the feedback we provided to improve some things?

Things I want :
I want condi engi back,
i want bomb engi back in all its forms, condi, hybrid and power options(none seem worth it)
I want Over Shield to MEAN something.
I want adept Firearms to feel impactful, not some arbitrary numbers.
I don’t want Adrenal implant to dominate Tools GMs and still not stack with vigor on Tools minors.
I want Thermobaric Discharge to actually see use! Such a cool idea.
I want Siege Rounds to not just be for one single Elite and the other two pointless for most builds.

What are you do you want?
Lets be realistic, I don’t want complaints about how weak engi is or how stuck we are in a tanky/support situation, nor should this be a thread demanding flat buffs to bring us back into meta.
All I ask is what do you want from traits to not be as obvious as to what is the stronger pick with more variety in some lines.

dude, there is a thread on the frontpage where we celebrate our 8k burning ticks…
Also S/D got buffed beyond recognition…

And nades are -almost- as strong as before, they just lack in vuln-stacking now.
Bombs didn’t got weakened, they are just bugged currently (something a-net hopefully fixes). And if you speak about EIB, yes I’d love it back, but bunker down is a even better replacement.
Overshield is actually extremely strong for defensive builds IF you spec for protection-duration, like runes of earth or forgeman…
Adept firearms is totally fine. 10% more crit-chance where we really need it (close-range) OR more vuln-stacking OR increased condi-duration for pistols… you know what that does to blowtorch, right?^^
And adrenal implant is not really dominating it… tried out moa or IA with kinetic battery? Or double-surprise shot in s/d builds? This is clearly a subjective issue.
+1 to the last two points, tho. Explosives grandmaster-traits are lackluster for various reasons. (unless you go down the route of 4x orbital strike)

Anyways, if you don’t want a complaints-thread about how weak/stuck we are to some specs, don’t open one, because we clearly aren’t…

OP your asking for things in a vague and unconstructive manner.

What you want, in all honestly, is much much less relevant then discussing the path to get there. Unless you offer reasonable solution to discuss, or reasonable ideas about how to make changes or adjustments, your not having a very fruitful discussion.

Your much better off, opening discussions about specific and detailed ideas for how to add or change specific traits, weapon skills, and utility skills.

I’d like condi Engi to come back too but the problem lies with the Engi kit design! The only kits that are capable of dealing offensive pressure are its explosive kits! Unfortunately the explosive specialization is purely power oriented! That right there just kills all condi builds! Gimmicky 8k burn ticks are a result of taking bad utilities like Flamethrower and blowing all your cooldowns to reach that kind of damage and then praying to Lord Gaben they don’t have condi cleanse (which they probably will and then you’re left mashing pistol or Elixir Gun autos for the next 20 seconds)! Useless in a teamfight, outclassed in 1v1s, pointless! RIP condi Engi!

Bomb Kit hasn’t been viable in a long time and I personally don’t think it will be viable ever again! In this meta, it’s partly because of the explosives line being so power oriented! You’re forced to take an explosive kit without the accompanying trait line! It’s also because of the power creep! A bomb build is forced to be at close range to make use of its AoE! Being at close range and eating a million cleave damage as a fragile Engi is bad! It could make for a decent 1v1/home point defender but is heavily outclassed by other better and more popular 1v1 builds like DD Ele and cele Necro! If you like Bomb Kit, just hope the other team is bad or you won’t have a good time!

I don’t care much for the Inventions line because even though they buffed it, it’s still not worth taking over Alchemy as a defensive specialization! I wish they would make Inventions a viable choice over Alchemy and not just something to take alongside Alchemy for a defensive boost!

Thermobaric Detonation should just make the next explosive attack a blast finisher with a 10 second cooldown! It would work with any explosion skill and can proc out of combat for might or stealth stacking!

Do I think Anet will look at our whining? Nope!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Just because you don’t know how to set it up properly, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t work.

But hey, to each his own opinion, and you have a history of letting yours appear as fact anyways.^^

Yes even though burn spiking is easily removed, has an extremely long cooldown in comparison to Eles and Guardians, is very, very useless in teamfights, is heavily outclassed in a 1v1 scenario by numerous much better and more popular 1v1 builds, is very hazardous to you and your team with the increasing popularity of Plague Signet Necros, and you’re forced to take low pressure and overall bad utilities like Flamethrower, it still works and I just don’t know how to set it up! My bad!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

8 Burn stacks. It’s cool and all that, but well. Doesn’t work. And if you take the time to set it up (Come on, I mean, Flamethrower, and perhaps Rocket Kick for the more courageous ones?), you’re simply dead. Everyone will slice you to pieces even with both Inventions and Alchemy mixed in and if you’ve invested most of your ressources to survive, there are great chances that you didn’t have much of an impact, if not at all.

MrForz.1953:

8 Burn stacks. It’s cool and all that, but well. Doesn’t work. And if you take the time to set it up (Come on, I mean, Flamethrower, and perhaps Rocket Kick for the more courageous ones?), you’re simply dead. Everyone will slice you to pieces even with both Inventions and Alchemy mixed in and if you’ve invested most of your ressources to survive, there are great chances that you didn’t have much of an impact, if not at all.

Inventions is a crutch, and does nothing for condi builds.

Run Tools and get Kinetic Battery for double Incendiary Ammo. You will not be displeased.

The only thing helping condi engi right now s the fact that its relying on a single high CD ability to try and emulate a condition “burst” that some other Classes are capable of.
The only reason it works is because burning is obscene at the moment.

ellesee.8297:

it still works and I just don’t know how to set it up! My bad!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Correct, and if you weren’t trying so hard to be sarcastic, and spending your time with trying out builds, you already could know how^^

Anyways, this is the build I’m running in PvP:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqalcThatY7Ww+KQ+FLsF1YOOG/I4HeiBgYHVFPBA-TJhAwAw2fgzDAgcZAAnAAA
Pinpoint distribution or no-scope are a matter of taste.
Rampager or Rabid are a matter of taste.

How does it work?
Bait their condi-clear. Then overload them with condis and moa them.
Optionally you have double moa or double IA, or double stunbreakers.
You bring stealth & safe-stomps, frequent burn re-appliance (2x every 40sec form IA alone), and if you can’t stomp safely, putting napalm on downed opponents is a safe kill, unless their allies are kittened enough to sit in there and rezz, or you are kittened enough to put it on a class which can move in downstate.
You also can set up napalm offensively, by proccing EG’s glue-trail and putting napalm on caught opponents. Ranged opponents may try to kite you, so just stealth, acid bomb towards them and follow up glue-shot with elixir F.
You only bring little cc, but it’s enough to interrupt rezzes/stomps, decap a point (with glueshot) and interrupt enemies.

And about plague-signet necros:
It has a huge cast-time. Learn to dodge it, or simply put them into moa, with followed up condi-bomb. They usually melt faster from this than they could recover.

In a organized party, this build excels in effectivity.

In my opinion playing condi with nades and toolkit as before works quite well , probably it is not the best setup for high lvl pvp but for casual gaming i find it quite viable.
The only different from prepatch is that if you chose inventions for IP you have to take Elixir Gun instead of elixir S … the vuln stacking of eg help you a lot to increment your damage. In your build , i tried something similar , losing toolkit now is really (for me ) a huge problem . Box of nail , for the fact that is unblockable is really important when you 1vs 1 with guardians and warriors … it let you put distance within them and you

I think inventions ( for me at least ) is better than alchemy ( i don’t use hgh) for a simple reason : rabid has no vitality now and no healing power. Inventions gives medkit with bunker down and it permits you to have 250 of healing power . I tried with alchemy but i last more fighting with inventions cause of the healing power. Now backpack regenerator is less strong than before so i prefer inventions for the minor traits that give me more hp. sorry for the bad english but it is not my native language .

PierPiero.9142:

I think inventions ( for me at least ) is better than alchemy ( i don’t use hgh) for a simple reason : rabid has no vitality now and no healing power. Inventions gives medkit with bunker down and it permits you to have 250 of healing power . I tried with alchemy but i last more fighting with inventions cause of the healing power. Now backpack regenerator is less strong than before so i prefer inventions for the minor traits that give me more hp. sorry for the bad english but it is not my native language .

Rabid never had vitality, and really doesn’t need it. 900 toughness is more than enough to survive most 1v1 spikes. You’re obviously going to get leveled if you have three people on you, but that’s where Toss Elixir S and Gear Shield come in. It also depends on the awareness of your team mates. Maybe Inventions is more pug-friendly, but I think Alchemy+Tools has a significantly higher ceiling and will probably be the meta combo with Explosives for Grenade Kit or Firearms for Flamethrower.

That all being said, in WvW I do mix some Dire into my Rabid when condition roaming.

I do agree about Backpack Regenerator; in most builds I use Self-Regulating Defenses over it. It’s an extra condi cleanse with Alchemical Tincture, and prevents getting bursted down in one go by mesmers.

But Bunker Down is really good only if you don’t really plan on using Elixir S; there’s nothing more annoying than getting revealed from stealth because someone walked over one of your mines. So it’s like, you have to choose between stealth and med packs. And I personally will always opt for damage avoidance (and the safe spike from consumed S).

I really think you’re dismissing how strong HGH is, especially when Toss Elixir S is lowered to a 32 second cooldown with Tools. It’s really significant how much better Toss Elixir X is as well.

The only place I see Inventions being huge is for the Bomb Kit, and I’ve been seeing Teldo do some serious work with his build, but that’s because he doesn’t use Elixir S or Elixir X. He uses Rocket Boots or Elixir Gun with Supply Crate as his elite.

rabid had never had vitality but the classic build 6xx4x. took stats from trait setup and now you have no more this . I agree with you about hgh builds . I usually don’t take explosive but i prefer firearms for IP . Explosive for me is better with power based build .
If you don’t take explosive but playing with nades, in my opinion ( only in that case ) elixir gun helps you a lot. If you play with tool, explosive and alchemy then i prefer to take celestial and rifle for a power build, it works great. With pistol pistol i prefer rabid and in that case i prefer to take fire arms. In this case, for me, eg works better than elixir S ( i use supply crate too as elite with rabid )

this is what i am playing now . I don’t tell you it will be the new meta. I only tell you that playing pvp every evening with pugs ( i usually play alone ) it seems to me that it works quite well. I think now power rifle based build are better but i prefer to play with pistol pistol and i find this a viable solution . I tried the power based celestial build copied by TGC engineer and it is really strong ( inventions explosive, alchemy ) but for playing with pistol pistol in a normal ranked match i find this build that i paste quite strong .
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-ZRR;2cPVg0l6gTFx0;9;4jkm;0038157247;9;15NV05NV02o
As sigil i use geomancy and doom usually or torment and doom ( i forgot to select them )

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rabid never had vitality, and really doesn’t need it. 900 toughness is more than enough to survive most 1v1 spikes.

The problem with this, is that it is barely half true. As in my experience, more then half the players are spiking with conditions now. So more then half of them, completely ignore the toughness all together, with their damage spikes.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rabid never had vitality, and really doesn’t need it. 900 toughness is more than enough to survive most 1v1 spikes.

The problem with this, is that it is barely half true. As in my experience, more then half the players are spiking with conditions now. So more then half of them, completely ignore the toughness all together, with their damage spikes.

There is no 1200 vitality amulet that has condition damage, so you’re really looking at going between Carrion or Celestial if you want more survivability against conditions with a condition build.

Carrion is decent, and definitely caters well to the Bomb Kit a lot better than Rabid does, but with baseline toughness your armor averages out to a little over 2,000; this is not good, and will easily result in you getting 100-0’d in a team fight. You also won’t really make very good use out of half the traits in Firearms either, as Firearms is still a precision-centric tree.

Serrated Steel and Sharpshooter both lend very well to having a Sigil of Geomancy in your build, as the Flamethrower and Bomb Kit don’t have native bleed stacking. But if you run Carrion, you need Intelligence to proc Incendiary Powder … so you’re forced to either go without Sigil of Energy—another massive survivability loss—or running the Grenade Kit.

As far as I’m concerned, the Flamethrower is our premiere condition weapon right now, and playing musical chairs with sigils is not really all that fun when Rabid obviously works a lot better in general. In the end, Carrion just isn’t as good as Rabid.

You could go the Celestial route, but the difference between 560 condition damage and 1200 condition damage is massive, and this difference only further widens when Pinpoint Distribution is included.

I’ve tested both Celestial and Carrion over the past couple weeks, but due to the above reasons, Rabid not only killed people faster than either of them, I also survived a lot longer.

I can actually 1v1 most classes with my Rabid FT/TK build, and have won against mesmers, elementalists, and guardians despite them having significantly stronger spikes and condition cleanse. With Celestial I kinda slapped these classes like a wet fish and didn’t have the sustained burn pressure enough to put them on the defensive. With Rabid a good situational burn burst will send them reeling, and with Toss Elixir S they don’t have anyone to throw the burning back onto with a Generosity sigil.

Conditions will always be a problem for engineers. Learn to stick the periphery of team fights, stagger your burns (don’t open with both IA and Blowtorch), and keep Streamlined Kits active as much as you can to Tool Kit-swap and sprint out of trouble if you’re badly positioned.

I only use Toss Elixir S with Kinetic Battery, which doubles as both stealth and a condi cleanse. I will also not be afraid to pop Elixir S early just for a condition cleanse, as there’s no point in saving it for a stomp if you’re not sure you’re going to survive a guardian’s burn ticks.

The key thing I think a lot of people don’t understand is that ranging with the pistol and letting Incendiary Powder do its work is a lot better than trying to kill people with Flame Jet or Pry Bar. Don’t force yourself into melee range if you don’t have to be. That’s why you’re taking the Flamethrower for Incendiary Ammo and Napalm.

Probably it is a problem of mine but i find flame thrower terrible , the worst engi kit. I really really love tk and eg… and i like also nades…. bombs now have the problem of the radius but for me ft is quite difficult to use. I can not explain you why but it seems to me to be weaker and to have less mobility … no idea why i have this feeling . Eg helps you quite a lot for managing condition. You use EG5 and then autoattack. Autoattack of eg is really really strong. I use to stack weakness with autoattack and then i pass to nades and i can ensure that they hurt a lot in a condi build used togegher . Probably it is a problem of mine using ft … but with it i feel really weak .

celestial works really well with rifle in power based builds .

PierPiero.9142:

Probably it is a problem of mine but i find flame thrower terrible , the worst engi kit. I really really love tk and eg… and i like also nades…. bombs now have the problem of the radius but for me ft is quite difficult to use. I can not explain you why but it seems to me to be weaker and to have less mobility … no idea why i have this feeling . Eg helps you quite a lot for managing condition. You use EG5 and then autoattack. Autoattack of eg is really really strong. I use to stack weakness with autoattack and then i pass to nades and i can ensure that they hurt a lot in a condi build used togegher . Probably it is a problem of mine using ft … but with it i feel really weak .

The Flamethrower should be used just like the Tool Kit: you use a couple skills, maybe Flame Jet to get quick Incendiary Ammo stacks, and then swap out of it. I only really use Flame Blast if there’s a combo field on the ground that’s worth blasting, and save Napalm, Air Blast, and Smoke Vent for situational circumstances.

I spend the majority of my time wielding my pistols, leaning up a bit into the team fight to drop a Pry Bar or Blowtorch.

Phineas Poe.3018:

PierPiero.9142:

Probably it is a problem of mine but i find flame thrower terrible , the worst engi kit. I really really love tk and eg… and i like also nades…. bombs now have the problem of the radius but for me ft is quite difficult to use. I can not explain you why but it seems to me to be weaker and to have less mobility … no idea why i have this feeling . Eg helps you quite a lot for managing condition. You use EG5 and then autoattack. Autoattack of eg is really really strong. I use to stack weakness with autoattack and then i pass to nades and i can ensure that they hurt a lot in a condi build used togegher . Probably it is a problem of mine using ft … but with it i feel really weak .

The Flamethrower should be used just like the Tool Kit: you use a couple skills, maybe Flame Jet to get quick Incendiary Ammo stacks, and then swap out of it. I only really use Flame Blast if there’s a combo field on the ground that’s worth blasting, and save Napalm, Air Blast, and Smoke Vent for situational circumstances.

I spend the majority of my time wielding my pistols, leaning up a bit into the team fight to drop a Pry Bar or Blowtorch.

I use toolkit a lot. I don’t camp in toolkit but for example box of nails is really strong and every 10 seconds, when i fight against a melee profession (guardian ,warr, thief) i usually switch to toolkit and drop it around myself . I have problem in fight with ft becouse with autoattack i have to stay close, i have problems in blasting skill 2 into skill 4 and the knock back is not that good for me. If i play with rifle and i use skill 4 and you have stability , in any case i make to you a huge damage, with ft i do quite nothing. I go quite often 1vs 1 roaming between points and i tried with ft but i failed bad. Probably it is a personal probem of skill .I would not trade eg , toolkit or nades for ft but perhaps it is becouse i use them since near 3 years

PierPiero.9142:

celestial works really well with rifle in power based builds .

You are living in the past man.

Novuake.2691:

PierPiero.9142:

celestial works really well with rifle in power based builds .

You are living in the past man.

Look at the last tournament in EU for example , TGC for example used a very strong build with celestial rifle. Try it and tell me. ( the credit is of their engi , not mine )

TCG ran double ele thief mes war in this past Go4 cup. Or is this another tournament you’re thinking of?

i don’t remember, i arrived there throught a post here in any case it was a build based on explosive, alchemy and inventions , with rifle nades, toolkit , eg and mortar. It is quite strong . I tried also maradeur which can be really strong but it depends on what you do. If you go 1 vs 1 maradeur is really strong … for staying in teamfight , in my opinion celestial is better. Celestial is viable in 1 vs 1 too so it is a better compromise

Arantheal.7396:

snip

This post is pretty funny! “Bait out their condi clear”? With what! EG autos? Pistol attacks? That’s just silly! Maybe if you fight someone who shouldn’t be 1v1ing you, you might pull off a win! But against actual 1v1 classes like the insanely popular DD Ele or cele signet Necro you are just going to get doodied on! Your burn spikes will be cleansed or transferred back to you and you will be stuck using weak pistol and EG attacks and die! In teamfights, your burns will be AoE cleansed or your target will simply reposition themselves and again you’re stuck with weak pistol and EG attacks! This is the problem of being a condi burst build! Condi Necro suffers from the same issue and it’s really not in a good place! This is also the problem of having to tailor your build with weak utilities! Other burn spike builds like Guardians and Eles do not have to change much to get their burns off but the Engi has to take bad utilities like Flamethrower! But hey, if you are having success with it in solo queues, by all means play what you enjoy! But there is a reason no good Engis are using this method in high level PvP!

Also Plague Signet is an instant cast condi transfer! It’s also a passive proc! These Necros excel at absolutely demolishing condi builds, specifically burn spikers, 1v1! They can even hold their own against the way stronger DD Ele! To think that you could “melt” this build is amusing! You should at least learn what skills do before you make these assumptions!

PierPiero.9142:

i don’t remember, i arrived there throught a post here in any case it was a build based on explosive, alchemy and inventions , with rifle nades, toolkit , eg and mortar. It is quite strong . I tried also maradeur which can be really strong but it depends on what you do. If you go 1 vs 1 maradeur is really strong … for staying in teamfight , in my opinion celestial is better. Celestial is viable in 1 vs 1 too so it is a better compromise

Cele Engis are not in a good spot! Celestial Amulet requires good condi and power pressure and the cele Engi doesn’t have that anymore! Thanks specializations! Plus Backpack Regenerator was nerfed! A bunch of EU Engis are running Soldier’s Amulet because it makes for a decent 1v1/1v2 build! But again the problem is that it’s simply outclassed by other better more popular 1v1 builds! Marauder Engis aren’t that great in 1v1s! They lose to a lot of different classes and builds! They excel in teamfights because of their ability to negate Rampage or a difficult class and deal heavy AoE pressure and cleave!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

I like how you constantly try to let builds appear bad that you personally don’t like, yet I (and many others) win match after match with this and similar builds.

As always, you’re just good for a laugh.

Dealing with eles?
pump them up right after they switched out of water and moa them. literally works every time. and the pressure also comes from the power-dmg. Remember that I personally prefer the rampager version, where poison dart, static bolt, Flameblast & acid-bomb actually receive decent direct dmg output that’s more than enough to pressure eles into water, and right when they want to retaliate, you pop IA +blowtorch and drop them.
Necros? moa them and blow them up with IA. plague-form / deathshroud doesn’t save them. As soon as they have survived the first moa, you can always send the 2nd right after. And yes, you can dodge the trait plague-signet quite easily. they can clear exactly once with plague-signet, cause they’ll need successful crits & 3 condis on them for the trait to proc. So, what do you do? Only apply blowtorch + IA and pistol autos to them. or you blow your cd’s to load them up and then keep them blinded / dodge. If they can’t crit, their 2nd signet never pops, so they have nothing but staff 4 to cleanse. Usually less is more when it comes to fighting necros, but I thought you’d know that. Misjudged that, I guess.

Seems that you still have a hard time to adjust to the new balancing, so here some tips for you:
Nades are just bad for condi-builds.
Bleed does barely any dmg in a meta that decides fights in mere seconds, they’d need to spec into explosives for shrapnel (or siege rounds) & firearms for IP, leaving them with either low condi-clears, low mobility or low endurance regen.
Toolkit is still an awesome utility, so if you can not deal with EG, got for it instead of nades. You’ll miss out on a lot of might, but hey, now you can bring people close to you (smart idea on guardians), and block unblockable marks…

You know what, stop whining and post some viable builds instead.
So far, the only viable builds I’ve seen are S/D, FT burn stacking or tanky jugg FT builds, even tho the latter only is useful in WvW…
And none of these were coming from you.

Oh lord… lol I am not gonna bother nitpicking all the silly in this facepalm of a post but if you are looking for a build from me then here! This is what I currently run:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlUUh6rYJXwELQ+FLvF14M2FZh4F1EJx3QFhBAA-TJBFABC8AAEvMQN7PAwFAAA

Some of the best Engis in the world run variants of this build! Zero Engis run burn spike builds because of the reasons that I already posted but I guess I was just whining! If you like your burn build, then run it! If it works in solo queues then run it! But when you’re playing against good people and/or an organized team… good luck!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

I mean he’s right that ele and necro are pretty strong counters to condi engis. Good ones should beat you.

Other builds do burn spikes better so people have found counters. Not surprising that Engi suffers from splash hate.

P/P condi is neat to play until you are against evenly skilled players, then you just die.

Seriously!?
No wonder that everyone “up there” is feeling nothing but salt towards the engi if they run crap like this.
I don’t even know where to start with, since this is literally having no synergy in itself whatsoever…

I guess I start with the gear and get trough it from there.
Marauder in itself is fine, but why the heck would you choose shrapnel as grandmaster then when you have next to zero mightstacking, nor any condi-dmg!?
With nades you need to go close-range anyways, so why pick the pointless explosives line, instead of going rifle-arms? With nades, even the first minor is better than shrapnel, and the additional crit-chance you’d get out of it would increase your dmg output way beyond your current trait-setup.
Powder keg has a 10sec icd, as well as rockets, so pick a whole line for exactly 2 procs!?
the only long-range snare you have is the rifle AA anyways, so why not running skilled marksman instead?
Sure, the 10% extra dmg on the 3rd minor is nice, but modified ammunition would give you even more dmg…
And then you take reactive lenses, the worst stunbreaker trait ever, since it procs off of blind as well…
why not power-wrench for the more frequent magnet pull & block?
And then we have self-regulating defense, the fastest way into downstate if your opponent happens to run condis… what many builds these days do.
But hey, you run moa. Seems this build really needs that carry…

I mean, you think my post is worth of a facepalm, and then post this… garbage!?
I really don’t care who’s running that, all I KNOW for certain is that they can’t deal with the idea of giving up the old cele rifle and try so hard to keep it alive that it borders on comedy.
Whatever “organized” group is struck with such an engi, I feel sorry for them. I will not deny that i lack the reaction-times to compete with tournament players, but if that’s what they commonly agreed on to run as engi, they severely sabotage themselves…

That build is what Five Gauge runs and its just for mashing damage in team fights and countering with Toss Elixer X. Engi is just worse 1v1 than the other commonly played classes at the moment and has no way to beat a good Mes/Ele.

displacedTitan.6897:

P/P condi is neat to play until you are against evenly skilled players, then you just die.

I think it would be helpful if we would stop looking at everything from the perspective where builds are only good against bad players. What I think you’re trying to argue here is that with an organized team, condition cleanse will be abundant, making it a less effective build.

And while this is true, I think these builds are being ran and evaluated by players that aren’t actually managing their skills appropriately and are refusing to acknowledge that Marauder Grenadier has its own counters and disadvantages. The only class that can fully negate my burning is a bunker guardian. And even then: if I alone force a guardian to use all of his shouts to stay alive, then aren’t I doing my job?

As it stands, I don’t think either build is superior to the other and I don’t think either build gets engineers any closer to being “meta” because several classes simply need to be shaved down a bit.

I think engineers should continue running what they find fun and effective, as I don’t see elementalists or mesmers remaining as strong as they are. As someone that spent literally years waiting for a flamethrower build to be viable somewhere in this game I am applauding ArenaNet for making it finally work—and without being crippled by restrictive camping traits like Juggernaut.

Is it the best build to counter elementalists or necromancers in a 1v1? Probably not. But I’ve had a heck of a lot more success running a condi build over the past couple weeks than I have traiting for power. Instead of getting frustrated watching mesmers stealth up to replenish their HP over and over I see them reveal themselves in downed state. That alone has made my PvP experiences a lot more satisfying, and I find myself a lot less likely to want to break my keyboard in half trying to make the engineer work without crutch/band-aid abilities like praying for Rampage.

It’s a cohesive build that actually works without any gimmicks, and isn’t relying on a skill that’s liable to being nerfed in the near future.

Well this thread nosedived…

I find it odd that two posters rather rudely demand everyone has to run what the so called best engies in the world, run, or they are berated and brow beaten out of the conversation. Particularly when the brow beaters are certainly not in the “best in the world” catagory.

Those best engies" are not currently succeeding, and are repeatedly complaining about how hard of a time they are having, in cideos, blgs, and post, so this notion of blindly using thier builds strikes me as illogical. Not to mention, what sense does it make for the common player to be so abrasively left out of the conversation?

This game isn’t balanced around the common player though. It’s balanced around high tier because ANet wants to be #esports.

Prisoner.2419:

This game isn’t balanced around the common player though. It’s balanced around high tier because ANet wants to be #esports.

All of the complaints of the Esports playing engineers, strongly suggest the engineer itself is actually not balanced around their skill level, so that concept falls a little flat.

As well, that does not justify abrasively shouting down every player who desires to discuss the engineer, on its designated forums.

dancingmonkey.4902:

All of the complaints of the Esports playing engineers, strongly suggest the engineer itself is actually not balanced around their skill level, so that concept falls a little flat.

Precisely. The only reason Engi feels fine on “lower” tiers of play is due to burning abuse of Incendiary Ammo, once burning is brought in line, Engis won’t even see play in lower tiers or higher.

ANet’s balancing isn’t perfect, and even they know it. If it was, we wouldn’t see so many people complaining about d/d eles and mantra shatter lockdown mesmers everywhere. The last changes they made completely shifted the meta, from team compositions to individual builds, and a lot of the previous balance was thrown out the window.

You’re free to suggest whatever you want considering balance around the average player, but ANet isn’t going to consider it seriously unless it also makes sense from a high tier perspective. If you want to change that, you’ll have to show them why it would be worth it to balance around the average player instead.

Prisoner.2419:

ANet’s balancing isn’t perfect, and even they know it. If it was, we wouldn’t see so many people complaining about d/d eles and mantra shatter lockdown mesmers everywhere. The last changes they made completely shifted the meta, from team compositions to individual builds, and a lot of the previous balance was thrown out the window.

You’re free to suggest whatever you want considering balance around the average player, but ANet isn’t going to consider it seriously unless it also makes sense from a high tier perspective. If you want to change that, you’ll have to show them why it would be worth it to balance around the average player instead.

Now you are just deflecting… But I guess that is better than confrontational.

ellesee.8297:

This post is pretty funny! “Bait out their condi clear”? With what! EG autos? Pistol attacks? That’s just silly! Maybe if you fight someone who shouldn’t be 1v1ing you, you might pull off a win! But against actual 1v1 classes like the insanely popular DD Ele or cele signet Necro you are just going to get doodied on! Your burn spikes will be cleansed or transferred back to you and you will be stuck using weak pistol and EG attacks and die! In teamfights, your burns will be AoE cleansed or your target will simply reposition themselves and again you’re stuck with weak pistol and EG attacks! This is the problem of being a condi burst build! Condi Necro suffers from the same issue and it’s really not in a good place! This is also the problem of having to tailor your build with weak utilities! Other burn spike builds like Guardians and Eles do not have to change much to get their burns off but the Engi has to take bad utilities like Flamethrower! But hey, if you are having success with it in solo queues, by all means play what you enjoy! But there is a reason no good Engis are using this method in high level PvP!

Also Plague Signet is an instant cast condi transfer! It’s also a passive proc! These Necros excel at absolutely demolishing condi builds, specifically burn spikers, 1v1! They can even hold their own against the way stronger DD Ele! To think that you could “melt” this build is amusing! You should at least learn what skills do before you make these assumptions!

Condi Necros beat DD Eles. Engies can beat DD Eles but you need to seriously be on your A-game.

I and Djooce (Necro) have been running condi together. We’ve won quite a few matches because we literally cannot be out-cleansed.

dancingmonkey.4902:

I find it odd that two posters rather rudely demand everyone has to run what the so called best engies in the world, run, or they are berated and brow beaten out of the conversation. Particularly when the brow beaters are certainly not in the “best in the world” catagory.

Those best engies" are not currently succeeding, and are repeatedly complaining about how hard of a time they are having, in cideos, blgs, and post, so this notion of blindly using thier builds strikes me as illogical. Not to mention, what sense does it make for the common player to be so abrasively left out of the conversation?

If you could point out where I berated anyone for running a build and where I demanded everyone run the power meta build, that would be neat! I am pretty sure I specifically stated multiple times here and hundreds of times in other threads that people should run whatever build makes them happy! I even wrote numerous guides on builds that were very far from the meta for the sole reason of running a build using underused utilities that some people may enjoy! But how can you even deny that certain builds work better than others! The fact of the matter is you absolutely need a good build to be viable against anyone competent at this game! I was asked to link my build and I did, and it happens to be similar to the builds that top tier Engis are running because there is zero build diversity in this game! I imagine the common player would like to know what a meta build looks like and why traits and utilities are chosen to help them become better players! I know I did way back when!

Anyway no one is denying that the Engi has dropped significantly in ranking! The power build or a similar variant (which is actually a very old build and was the undisputed best power build) is the best we have with the explosive specialization trait shuffle! The Engi’s best offensive weapons are its explosive kits and with the explosive trait line now so power oriented, it’s very obvious that the Engi meta has shifted to power! You could figure this out even without watching any of the tournaments, where every single goshdarn Engi on a team worth watching runs Marauder or Soldier! I figured it out real quick when I tried many builds, including a burn spike build, with little success against organized teams!

But despite that I feel the power Engi is very balanced and that other classes should be brought down or up to its level! It has its roles as a teamfighter and roamer and it does them really well! The build has its weaknesses like its inability to 1v1 designated 1v1 builds but it may win 1v1s against other builds with similar roles if you were good enough! It’s also very fragile and requires very good positioning to be effective! This is in contrast to what the cele Engi was prepatch where it was one of the best 1v1 builds in the game in addition to being an excellent team fighter and roamer! It was both durable and hard hitting! It could just do everything along with most builds and classes that people stacked on a team!

Novuake.2691:

Precisely. The only reason Engi feels fine on “lower” tiers of play is due to burning abuse of Incendiary Ammo, once burning is brought in line, Engis won’t even see play in lower tiers or higher.

I hesitate to get back to the burn spike build topic because trying to reason with inane ramblings will lead to more inane ramblings! I take the blame for derailing the thread! I should’ve known better! Anyway I think burn Engis are incredibly strong at the low levels because very few people know how to rotate or even use their builds properly! They also don’t know when to cleanse conditions! I have seen ridiculous usage of cleanse skills while playing on my frand’s account in the lower brackets! Rotating someone with little condi clear to fight a sustain-y burn spiker is very foolish but it happens! But there is a reason you never see a build solely dedicated to bursting someone with burning at high level play, especially not a burn build with such high cooldowns and weak utilities like the Engi has to take! The amount of counters it has in organized play is staggering and it simply cannot compete with other classes in both 1v1s and teamfights rendering it extremely lackluster overall! Burning is best used in conjunction with hard hitting abilities like from a Guardian or Elementalist, or with numerous other conditions like from a Ranger or explosives condi Engi! This is where burning shines! The Engi just doesn’t have a good source of burning from a viable kit! Flamethrower and Bomb Kit are just too darn weak! I don’t think burning damage should be nerfed, but rather the scaling damage since most condi builds are in the gutter atm and Guardians and Eles are hitting incredibly hard while not even built for conditions!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Arantheal.7396:

Seriously!?
No wonder that everyone “up there” is feeling nothing but salt towards the engi if they run crap like this.
I don’t even know where to start with, since this is literally having no synergy in itself whatsoever…

I guess I start with the gear and get trough it from there.
Marauder in itself is fine, but why the heck would you choose shrapnel as grandmaster then when you have next to zero mightstacking, nor any condi-dmg!?
With nades you need to go close-range anyways, so why pick the pointless explosives line, instead of going rifle-arms? With nades, even the first minor is better than shrapnel, and the additional crit-chance you’d get out of it would increase your dmg output way beyond your current trait-setup.
Powder keg has a 10sec icd, as well as rockets, so pick a whole line for exactly 2 procs!?
the only long-range snare you have is the rifle AA anyways, so why not running skilled marksman instead?
Sure, the 10% extra dmg on the 3rd minor is nice, but modified ammunition would give you even more dmg…
And then you take reactive lenses, the worst stunbreaker trait ever, since it procs off of blind as well…
why not power-wrench for the more frequent magnet pull & block?
And then we have self-regulating defense, the fastest way into downstate if your opponent happens to run condis… what many builds these days do.
But hey, you run moa. Seems this build really needs that carry…

I mean, you think my post is worth of a facepalm, and then post this… garbage!?
I really don’t care who’s running that, all I KNOW for certain is that they can’t deal with the idea of giving up the old cele rifle and try so hard to keep it alive that it borders on comedy.
Whatever “organized” group is struck with such an engi, I feel sorry for them. I will not deny that i lack the reaction-times to compete with tournament players, but if that’s what they commonly agreed on to run as engi, they severely sabotage themselves…

Thanks for the critique.

When I run this build in an organized team setting, not only do I or my teammates not feel salt toward Engineer’s poor performance, but with proper cooldown usage, and a little luck, you can massively impact fights.

This is for 3 reasons:

• Ability to totally strip and flip people’s big abilities, often long cooldowns such as Plague/Death Shroud, Rampage by using Moa Morph.

• Downed cleave. Simply rolling my Elixir X in the moments before an enemy goes down, that’s resulted in more quadra kills than I can highlight reel. A Marauder profession Rampage, firing Air/Fire Sigils, Dodge Bombs, and Aim-Assisted Rockets, it’s really hard to revive against this. This is the big synergy that most people just don’t understand. No Soldiers, Rabid, or Cele can Rampage half as well.

• It’s survivable vs. top tier picks (Enemy Cele Eles are the highest condition output in which you have to deal with.) High invulnerability, block & stealth uptime. Get healed and cleansed by friendly Eles when you’re on the defensive. I don’t expect a competitive team to field even a single rabid/carrion profession, and even so, the extra 4-7 condition removals a minute from the Elixir procs make it just about as good as you’ll get vs. conditions, anyway.

Your individual trait comments:

• Why Shrapnel: Shrapnel’s cripple is more useful than traiting a non-existant Mortar, I would consider Thermobaric Detonation to be occasionally useful, just difficult to milk given the user’s positioning, normally. I advise against running Firearms over Explosives. Grenadier Radius & Speed, 2 damage Procs, raw percentage of team damage increased through vulnerability, 10 percent explosion damage, Turret Knockback, and crippling grenades, this is better than the two conditional crit chance boosts, 20 percent CDR to Rifle, and Modified Ammunition. Just remember, this is a teamfighting build, it’s really about chucking the nades there.

• Power Wrench over Reactive Lenses: Wrench is a great trait, use both Power Wrench and Reactive Lenses as you see fit. I do.

• Self-Regulating Defenses being a free ticket into the downed state: Again, nobody runs conditions in top tier, but Self-Regulating Defenses is pure gold when getting focus in teamfights, which I purposefully put myself in those situations now.

• Clinging on to old Cele Rifle functionality: far from m8, if I was doing that, I’d be using Soldier’s Amulet with Slick Shoes to 1v1 hero on side points like I was doing pre-patch. Giving up all 1v1 focus in order to swing teamfights is the most aggressive adaptation that I’ve ever done in a while.

Arantheal.7396:

Whatever “organized” group is struck with such an engi, I feel sorry for them.

I’ll pass the message along

Chaith.8256:

• Downed cleave. Simply rolling my Elixir X in the moments before an enemy goes down, that’s resulted in more quadra kills than I can highlight reel. A Marauder profession Rampage, firing Air/Fire Sigils, Dodge Bombs, and Aim-Assisted Rockets, it’s really hard to revive against this. This is the big synergy that most people just don’t understand. No Soldiers, Rabid, or Cele can Rampage half as well.

Yeah, I really have to agree. Tornado is pretty bad in most situations, but it’s very effective at disrupting resurrects. I’m still fooling around with FT/TK since it’s just refreshing to play, but any time I’m in Marauder with Grenade Kit I’ve been trying to save my Elixir X more for those types of situations.

I found it especially huge in Stronghold as well, though I’m not sure how much you played of that.

ellesee.8297:

The power Engi doesn’t rely on Rampage! It does perfectly fine even without it as long as you know your limits! Also isn’t burning going to be nerfed in the near future?

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Elixir X is the staple elite skill of all power engineer builds now and without it we’re just not anywhere near as useful. I would take Mortar Kit over it for WvW now that Grenade Kit only has 900 range, but in small-scale fighting Tornado and Rampage aren’t just situationally useful: they’re serious effing tide-turners. Tornado is incredible at decapping points and Rampage hits like a Mack truck. And then there’s Toss Elixir X, which not only has a shorter cooldown than Rampage and Lich Form—it’s also AoE. Just my own personal assessment: without Elixir X, I wouldn’t even bother with power builds in sPvP.

As I said earlier, I think burn engi is a more cohesive build and doesn’t rely on one or two situational skills to be effective. It’s just a matter of play style, though I totally understand why Chaith prefers power. If it suits him and his teammates that’s great, and I appreciate that he is as public as he is about what he runs—and does so with a sobering assessment of our status quo. I think you could do us all a favor and take notes and try to avoid being so polarizing.

As for burning being nerfed: I think like with all things they’re waiting until after the WTS to see how things go. They’ve lately balanced the game around high-level tournament play and not arenas. I think turret engineer is the only major nerf they handed out to a build in recent history that was never popular in tournaments. And I’m not going to deny that while I and my guildies have had a great time running FT/TK builds, I would be blown away if an engineer was running condi in the WTS given how important team fighting is at that level.

Condi is better played as a duelist or in 2v2 situations; in four man fights it definitely is less effective. That makes it incredibly strong in arenas and in open world WvW, but in tournaments less so. It really just comes down to what you want to be, and what modes you’re generally playing. Both power and condi are incredibly viable right now and have situational advantages over the other.

I meant even if you don’t get Rampage a single time, it wouldn’t be the end of the worldl! It wouldn’t be ideal but you can still do work! If you are banking on getting Rampage to win a teamfight, then you are doing it wrong or are very desperate! Tornado is just a terrible! A marauder amulet wearing build should probably not stay in tornado because without defensive cooldowns, you’ll probably get demolished instantly! It’s better to just leave tornado and cleave the downed body and anyone reviving with your grenades and rifle assuming that’s what you used Elixir X for! You can get a stability powered Overcharged Shot when leaving tornado and that’s extremely potent!

I also have a huge issue with Elixir X being a boring, luck based skill! Elixir X really needs to have its own unique effect and not copy other elites with one of them being absolutely awful!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Novuake.2691:

Things I want :
I want condi engi back,
i want bomb engi back in all its forms, condi, hybrid and power options(none seem worth it)
I want Over Shield to MEAN something.
I want adept Firearms to feel impactful, not some arbitrary numbers.
I don’t want Adrenal implant to dominate Tools GMs and still not stack with vigor on Tools minors.
I want Thermobaric Discharge to actually see use! Such a cool idea.
I want Siege Rounds to not just be for one single Elite and the other two pointless for most builds.

What are you do you want?

That’s a pretty good wishlist.

My wants:

• Bombs Radius bugfixed to be 240 again.

• Rifled Barrels baseline, as outlined in the specialization reveal.

• Coated Bullets baseline, as outlined in the specialization reveal.

• Pistol’s Explosive Shot and Rifle’s Jump Shot considered an explosion, as outlined in the specialization reveal.

• Glass Cannon: What the hell. The name, the 5% bonus, the 90% health threshold, every text and number on this is silly. How about either fix this so it’s useful for ‘Glass Cannon’ builds: “Gain 300 power. Lose power based on your Toughness stat increases. (25% of Toughness over base.) Or convert it into a non-grenade based Condition trait.

• Shaped Charge: 5% Damage to Vulnerable Foes, it should be more all purpose. Shaped Charge: Vulnerability you cause is 25% more potent. Now Non-Bomb Condi builds can have something in this tier, and it’s still a great PvE trait.

• Thermobaric Detonation: Currently, there’s no Grandmaster power trait in the power traitline, unless you’re running Mortar. Thermobaric Detonation should be useful to all builds, especially non-mortar power builds. If it upgraded the Dodge bomb in a useful way to more power builds, that’d be a positive change.

• Modified Ammunition: Currently, Modified Ammunition is a great PvE trait, but there really needs to be a Rifle Grandmaster trait. Firearms has three purposes, to provide a path for Rifle users, Flamethrower Users, and Pistol users. The Flamethrower and Condi Grandmasters are there, but Modified Ammunition is too PvE specific, and pretty much impossible for most Power Engineers to even activate it. Needs tweaking to have synergy with Rifle builds.

• Gadgeteer: Did absolutely nothing to change Gadgets. . Just make Gadgeteer add 20% CDR to all gadgets permanently, and all gadgets activate the overcharged effect. The charges could be accumulated when a Gadget is used instead, and each charge could make your next attack unblockable, or another unique effect.

• Juggernaut: This trait has always been super user unfriendly. Can this now be an on-swap, with a 10s ICD? Adjust the boons accordingly.

That’s my synergy wishlist.

ellesee.8297:

I also have a huge issue with Elixir X being a boring, luck based skill! Elixir X really needs to have its own unique effect and not copy other elites with one of them being absolutely awful!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

I think you’re wrong about Tornado, but I’m not interested in getting involved in that. I do agree that Elixir X needs to be its own thing rather than simply copying over elites from other classes. I keep calling the burn build cohesive precisely because there’s no randomness involved with it. You either land your Blowtorch and Pry Bar or you don’t; there’s no RNG involved. It makes Marauder Grenadier feel very gimmicky, and where my results greatly vary compared to just playing my warrior and always having Rampage.

I guess what I’m trying to say is I’d rather be consistently “good” than situationally “great,” and I think FT/TK brings engineer closer spiritually to what it was designed to be rather than borrowing elites of other classes and doing them half as well.