Engineer turrets... sigh...
yes, this describes it very well. I which they would replace them.
yes, this describes it very well. I which they would replace them.
Not realy, sinds he didn’t put any traits into his turrets. Its like trying to demonstrate something is wrong with grenades when you don’t put any trait points into the explosive traitline.
I can leave my fully traited turrets in Orr during defense events and even in low density areas of ennemies and they are able to take one or two ennemies on their own (and with auto-tool they actualy last their 5min) depending on what kind of ennemies they are fighting. (Brutes are the exception of course).
Finaly I rather see Turrets improved and fixed before I see any of the abilities beeing replaced by some other gadget like gimmick build.
yes, this describes it very well. I which they would replace them.
Not realy, sinds he didn’t put any traits into his turrets. Its like trying to demonstrate something is wrong with grenades when you don’t put any trait points into the explosive traitline.
I can leave my fully traited turrets in Orr during defense events and even in low density areas of ennemies and they are able to take one or two ennemies on their own (and with auto-tool they actualy last their 5min) depending on what kind of ennemies they are fighting. (Brutes are the exception of course).
Finaly I rather see Turrets improved and fixed before I see any of the abilities beeing replaced by some other gadget like gimmick build.
my wife plays a ranger. She didn’t skilled for pets. Sometimes she goes afk and her panther protects her even against 2 opponents very easy. try this with your engi.
If you take all the traits for the turrets place all turrets around you and go afk in a respawn area you are dead if you come back.
my wife plays a ranger. She didn’t skilled for pets. Sometimes she goes afk and her panther protects her even against 2 opponents very easy. try this with your engi.
If you take all the traits for the turrets place all turrets around you and go afk in a respawn area you are dead if you come back.
Any class aside from the engineer has their weapons/utilities balanced upon their baselines and that get better with traits. We are the only ones balanced upon traited versions (and thus having terrible base ones).
Still, as you can see, people just accept it as if it was the most natural thing in the world…
Wow..Like, wow..Condi-grenades all day, turrets no way..
Still, as you can see, people just accept it as if it was the most natural thing in the world…
because after over a year of complaining we gave up and simply ignore turrets out of existence.
…You really think it’ll work to go ‘I don’t have a Turret trait, look how bad they are?’ Don’t do that. Look at them when they should be good, and compare that – if you’re fully traited, and the results are the same…well, that’s a lot more striking.
On that note, I actually ran the numbers on how much damage Turrets deal vs how much damage our Autoattacks deal.
Here’s the results, quoted from another thread, which I intend to post onto the Profession Balance board once the Feature Patch is out:
Pistol: 5256 [438×12] + 3460 [(346×2)x5]
Rifle: 9306 [846×11]
Speargun: 4506 [751×6]
Bomb: 13740 [1145×12]
Grenade: 4908 [409×12; possibly x3]
Tranquilizer Dart: 5456 [496×11] + 10320 [(1032×4)x2.5]
Flame Jet: 7083 [1864×3.8] + 2655 [(557+328)x3]; proccing 10% damage boost not accounted for.
Smack-Whack-Thwack: 12468 [(992×2 + 2172)x3]; haven’t accounted for 4+ stacks of Vulnerability.Rifle Turret: 549 [183×3]
Harpoon Turret: 621 [207×3]
Flame Turret: 98 [49×2]+ 2426 [1213×2]
Rocket Turret: 1096 [548×2]
Thumper Turret: 488 [244×2]if they resolve the fire rate issue, Turrets may be dealing something like the following, presented here (again) for comparison’s sake:
Rifle Turret: 915 [183×5]
Harpoon Turret: 1035 [207×5]
Flame Turret: 147 [49×3]+3639 [1213×3]
Rocket Turret: 1096 [548×2]
Thumper Turret: 732 [244×3]
These numbers are for a theoretical naked, traitless level 80 with a Weapon Power 1 version of any weapon or kit they may be using, attacking over a period of ten seconds.
I didn’t add RTB bonuses to Turret damage because of this traitlessness, but in this case…I really don’t think there’s any reason to, given that the only Turret that even breaks 1k with direct damage (the only kind of damage RTB helps with) is Rocket Turret.
But, well. I did say to take a look when they’re supposed to be good, didn’t I? I guess it would be hypocritical not to give an example to show my point…so let’s take that naked, traitless level 80 with a Weapon Power 1 Speargun (worst AA in terms of damage), and give them Rifled Turret Barrels (and I’m not accounting for any minor traits gained on the way, such as 10% of Healing Power to Power).
They’ll be placing Rocket Turret, Flame Turret, and Rifle Turret, all with RTB. This is the most damaging combination of Turrets, going by the numbers above and personal experience.
3694 total damage (direct and condition) for Rifled Turret Barrel Rocket, Flame, and Rifle Turrets over a period of ten seconds.
4506 for Autoattacking with Speargun for the same time period.
Even breaking rules just to skew it toward Turrets doesn’t make them seem good. As far as I am aware, there are no Weapon Power 1 weapons, after all, and I’m not accounting for that Healing Power to Power buff from a minor trait…and the most powerful set of turrets available deals only 80% of our worst Autoattack.
Just to make it worse, i would add that we will basically have no toolbelts in such a case – as they would just destroy the turrets – and that we’ll have to rely on the autoattack most of the time due of having a single weapon (thus having often all the weapon skills beside the autoattack in cooldown).
And that’s what happens when you forcefully balance a class toward an optional utility type like they did with kits: all the rest gets broken.
my wife plays a ranger. She didn’t skilled for pets. Sometimes she goes afk and her panther protects her even against 2 opponents very easy. try this with your engi.
If you take all the traits for the turrets place all turrets around you and go afk in a respawn area you are dead if you come back.
Any class aside from the engineer has their weapons/utilities balanced upon their baselines and that get better with traits. We are the only ones balanced upon traited versions (and thus having terrible base ones).
Still, as you can see, people just accept it as if it was the most natural thing in the world…
Yep I saw it because I played all three a necro a ranger and an engineer pet heavy builds even with the traits it was stupid how quickly turrets die. Pets die sure and they really really die quick in this game but turrets seem to be the weakest. It’s like someone set it in the final beta and said (they’re fine just release the patch).
And yeah I know they increased their health but there are some serious problems when they can’t even defend themselves without a trait.
I’ll give you two examples of how this didn’t happen in other games. My Loremaster in LOTRO didn’t have this issue ever and he was never specced into pets, his bear could handle 1-2 enemies and be alright when I came back to the computer from an emergency heck even my glass cannon Lynx never had this issue with normal enemies. the max level 30 piglike pet on my Ranger in Rift could take out 1-2 enemies when I went AFK and he didn’t even reach the level that most pets do for high level content, I just summoned him because he was available when I went AFK. Heck even my companions in NWO work well at low levels compared to the mobs I’m fighting because they scale properly.
I think that might be the issue here, we have a scaling problem with engineer turrets. They don’t receive enough bonuses from the summoning player before any traits are applied.
And before someone comes on here and says every game is different let me just say no, just no, under the hood it is all a numbers game despite anything you see on screen and you can quantify similar issues between titles through observation and deduction.
I agree with Manuhell about kits, we deserve to have those restored. We also deserve to have our pets scale properly, and we deserve to have condition damage/healing improved overall in PVE of course.
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
(edited by tigirius.9014)
As far as I can tell, Turrets are pretty much the following:
Rifle – Damage, with a debuff to increase damage (to a particular target from every ) on Overcharge.
Damage with a damage OC.
Flame – AoE+condition damage, with a pulsing radial blind and Smoke Field on Overcharge.
Damage with a Utility (is this what utility is? I’m honestly unsure) OC.
Rocket – Damage, with a more damaging knockdown shot on Overcharge.
Damage, with a Damage/Control OC.
Net – Control, with more Control and slight damage on Overcharge.
Control, with a Control/Damage Overcharge.
Thumper – Damage and Cripple, with more damage and Blowout on Overcharge, which is also a Blast Finisher.
Damage/Control, with a Damage/Control/Utility Overcharge.
and then there’s Healing Turret, which is Healing, with a Water Field on Overcharge; as Water Fields are primarily Healing (be it removal of conditions or direct healing) -focused.
That makes three Damage regular attack elements, and two Control regular attack elements. Damage obviously a large part of non-Overcharged Turret operation, as it’s simply present more often than Control.
On the Overcharge side, there’s four Damage elements, three Control elements, and two Utility elements. Damage elements still outnumber Control and Utility individually.
All that aside, the Turrets used for the comparison are the most damaging Turrets available, and…They’re not even good enough, traited, at their _ only non-Overcharged function_ to deal more combined damage than an impossibly kitten variation of our worst-damage weapon. Are they capable of Control and/or Utility? Sure – but on a long cooldown. Between uses of Overcharge, however, they (and other Turrets) deal minimal damage, so there’s very little reason to leave them on the field, aside from Net and Thumper Turret’s Control aspects.
I consider this a flaw in the very idea of a Turret skillset; if they’d just add scaling, it might improve things quite a bit, giving Turrets some kind of use besides drop-overcharge-pop (or drop-overcharge-pop-benefit from boons/fortified shields).
As far as I can tell, Turrets are pretty much the following:
Rifle – Damage, with a debuff to increase damage (to a particular target from every ) on Overcharge.
Damage with a damage OC.Flame – AoE+condition damage, with a pulsing radial blind and Smoke Field on Overcharge.
Damage with a Utility (is this what utility is? I’m honestly unsure) OC.Rocket – Damage, with a more damaging knockdown shot on Overcharge.
Damage, with a Damage/Control OC.Net – Control, with more Control and slight damage on Overcharge.
Control, with a Control/Damage Overcharge.Thumper – Damage and Cripple, with more damage and Blowout on Overcharge, which is also a Blast Finisher.
Damage/Control, with a Damage/Control/Utility Overcharge.and then there’s Healing Turret, which is Healing, with a Water Field on Overcharge; as Water Fields are primarily Healing (be it removal of conditions or direct healing) -focused.
That makes three Damage regular attack elements, and two Control regular attack elements. Damage obviously a large part of non-Overcharged Turret operation, as it’s simply present more often than Control.
On the Overcharge side, there’s four Damage elements, three Control elements, and two Utility elements. Damage elements still outnumber Control and Utility individually.All that aside, the Turrets used for the comparison are the most damaging Turrets available, and…They’re not even good enough, traited, at their _ only non-Overcharged function_ to deal more combined damage than an impossibly kitten variation of our worst-damage weapon. Are they capable of Control and/or Utility? Sure – but on a long cooldown. Between uses of Overcharge, however, they (and other Turrets) deal minimal damage, so there’s very little reason to leave them on the field, aside from Net and Thumper Turret’s Control aspects.
I consider this a flaw in the very idea of a Turret skillset; if they’d just add scaling, it might improve things quite a bit, giving Turrets some kind of use besides drop-overcharge-pop (or drop-overcharge-pop-benefit from boons/fortified shields).
I think the devs intended turrets to be like that, and if you happen to leave them out its just extra damage.
Then the devs shouldn’t have called them Turrets, just different kinds of Mine. Turret implies fortification, not ‘drop-and-pop.’ Calling them Turrets, if they intended drop-and-pop to be the main playstyle, simply sends the wrong message.
(edited by Anymras.5729)
Then the devs shouldn’t have called them Turrets, just different kinds of Mine. Turret implies fortification, not ‘drop-and-pop.’ Calling them Turrets, if they intended drop-and-pop to be the main playstyle, simply sends the wrong message.
Matchstick fortification comes to mind. Toothpick stockpile.
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
If they made a trait allowing them to move like Ranger Spirits Trait, then I would use them. This shield trait coming out is just dumb.
If they made a trait allowing them to move like Ranger Spirits Trait, then I would use them. This shield trait coming out is just dumb.
Asked for that just after launch, we all saw what they did with those suggestions, /trashcan.
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
Heck. Even if not mobile, let them be trained dowb to a 10 sec CD. That way I could pick up and move and still be viable.
Heck. Even if not mobile, let them be trained dowb to a 10 sec CD. That way I could pick up and move and still be viable.
I’d suggest 5 seconds, how hard is it to plop one down and press on.
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
A really simple addition that would get me to use turrets and would add a lot of utility to them would to be to give them collision. From a PvP standpoint turrets can be pretty much ignored (other than net turret) because the damage is so bad. Giving them collision makes it so people have to take them out or deal with an obstacle, and it this would also be a huge boost for PvE.
Do you mean “collusion” as in collusion detection?
Do you mean “collusion” as in collusion detection?
I can’t tell if you’re joking…
Do you mean “collusion” as in collusion detection?
I can’t tell if you’re joking…
Not joking in the least. I am so used to the term I take for granted that it is not a common knowledge term.
Collision detection typically refers to the computational problem of detecting the intersection of two or more objects. The topic is most often associated with its use in video games
(edited by dancingmonkey.4902)
I think the ‘I can’t tell if you’re joking’ might have been a reference to ‘Do you mean ’*collusion*,’ as in ‘collusion’ detection?’ Probably just a typo.
Yeah collision detection as in making them into obstacles that have to be jumped or block forward movement?… I don’t know if the devs would add that without a great deal of thought. Forcing enemies to kill them triggers turrets’ traited “On Kill” effects, so an enemy would have to pack stability just to pursue an engi. The way it is now requires the engineer to kill the turrets manually or the enemy be really dumb and blow themselves up. Much more skill involved. I don’t even want to think about the glitches and exploits that will come from that as well.
We actually did have collision on turrets way back.
It was removed for various reasons.
Because they were too useful? Make warriors look bad? make too much sense?
“Only problem with the Engineer is
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks
Because they were too useful? Make warriors look bad? make too much sense?
Because they broke the game.
It caused people to get stuck (in which I think they had to re-log or waypoint, it wasn’t just a “oh I blocked your pathing” issue) , it was hella buggy, and sometimes you were able to access areas you normally shouldn’t.
Did people forget how buggy turrets were at the beginning?
Turrets are boring and weak and will never scale up to other classes. They have to keep trying to make something out of turrets for a while longer. Really buffs or reflecting projectiles is interesting but doesnt make a diffrence. You want to waste your grandmaster traits on that? Then again we really dont have much other grandmaster traits left. AR hit the nerfehammer big time, HGH is fun but thief need 1 skill to steal all boons and 1 hit you with them. For engineer our best traits are NOT our grandmaster trait, thats just pathetic.
You know what? Let’s try to brainstorm ways to make Turrets better, then we can go try to get it done by posting the results on the Profession Balance board. It’ll at least feel semiproductive, instead of just sitting around going “Turrets aren’t as good as they could be! Argh!”
First, we need to identify the issues. In my opinion, the following are problematic, though this may not be an opinion shared:
- Low uptime for long cooldown – drop-and-pop is probably the closest to an optimal system of Turret use given Turrets as they are, making Turrets effectively fancy landmines. There’s also a lack of incentive not to simply drop-and-pop them.
- Lack of Power scaling – Currently, Turrets only scale to Condition Damage/Duration, Healing Power, and Boon Duration, although the tooltips seem to indicate the following Power scaling at Power 1,922:
Rifle Turret – .104
Flame Turret – .027
Thumper Turret – .138 Normal/.272 Overcharge
Rocket Turret – .313 Normal/.379 Overcharge
Net Turret – .069 Overcharge
While some Turrets are very useful for their control aspect, others are almost entirely focused on damage-dealing, and don’t inflict damaging conditions, which leaves them feeling anemic in comparison to other means of dealing supplementary damage.
The following are my suggestions to handle these issues, and why:
- Start Turret placement cooldown on placement. This would alleviate the long cooldowns, as well as encourage freer use of Turrets; with the cooldowns less of an issue, both those who use Turrets and keep them up and those who drop-and-pop Turrets could use them more often, making both playstyles easier and more mobile.
- Give a reason to keep Turrets on the field – The Experimental Turrets trait is pretty obviously an attempt at this. Perhaps Turrets should always grant boons when Overcharging, or create Combo Fields? Maybe make Overcharges cool down faster when the Turret is still on the field?
- I’d also suggest implementing the power scaling listed above – I sincerely doubt that improving the damage by that margin would be overpowering, even in the hands of a Berserker. Control is very nice, but some Turrets just don’t do it. Even a bit more damage, I think, would also encourage keeping them on the field.
I don’t expect all of my opinions to be shared, and I’d welcome being able to present multiple options for the staff to examine regarding making Turrets a better choice, so – if you disagree, or have different ideas, it’d be appreciated to have them available for presentation.
What they dont seem to understand they are only destroying the engineer class. Nobody wants Turrets, nobody usses turrets, turrets will never be on equal base with other skills.
With AR nerfed there arent many choises left for us BUT turrets. Sad thing now im loosing to most meta builds and loose most matches and tourneys. Simply now what to do, just cant do it with this class.
I don’t know, I love the new experimental turret trait. In dungeons I already used healing turret and thumper turret (for its 3 blast finishers yay) now I’m using fire turret as well for the AoE might.
In spvp flame turret and this trait goes great with a condi build since with runes of Balthazar it can keep someone burned forever, and with the hitbox fix it doesn’t die randomly all the time. AND since I also used accelerant-packed turrets trait it’s even better. Also the toolbelt is a long burn/fire field.
Throw in supply crate in the mix and you get even more might/boons. The only downside is that I’m more vulnerable to boon-hate but whatever!
I wish they’d just change AR entirely though. I can see why they’d nerf it but now it’s not worth being a GM trait.
Turrets are not pets… plain and simple. Rangers are the only true “pet” class, even Necromancer (my main btw) isn’t a true pet class. Necromancers have minions and its a bit more like mobile turrets.
My point in saying this is simply that the idea that turrets should be able to “handle” stuff on there own is simply not in the design of the game.
Turrets are simply putt a “utility” skill, in the truest meaning of the word. Turrets are actually very useful and now with some minor buffs (i wont call them fixes, cuz there not) they operate quite well in certain situations.
Rifle Turret is great for SD builds as it has a quick cd toolbelt skill.
Flame Turret is pretty kitten in condi builds focusing on burn.
Thumper Turret is great for stability and it provides 2x blast finishers, now its a good source of protection as well.
Net Turret constant imob, and now swiftness/vigor as well (this skill is actually quite good)
Rocket Turret has a nice knockdown element adding control and now that means quickness as well.
Now they can all do those things at the same time as most of the effects i mentioned are traited but there are maybe ways turrets can fit into your build. No you cant just drop them all with supply crate for crazy burst damage, but you were never ment too. Thats just not how Engi works… sorry.
Meh, turrets are overcomplicated.
Scrap the overcharge, scrap the detonate, make the turrets have a built in “bleed” to limit their active time, make their attacks perform as if overcharged from the word go, and make the skill recharge start at use.
Their current incarnation belongs more in TF2 than in GW2, especially when one consider that the tool kit autoattack is supposed to repair them…
Meh, turrets are overcomplicated.
Scrap the overcharge, scrap the detonate, make the turrets have a built in “bleed” to limit their active time, make their attacks perform as if overcharged from the word go, and make the skill recharge start at use.
Their current incarnation belongs more in TF2 than in GW2, especially when one consider that the tool kit autoattack is supposed to repair them…
Couldn’t agree more.
They should last for maybe 10 seconds and automatically detonate after that.
Low uptime, moderate-high impact, short cooldown; scaling with Power or Condition Damage. Mesmer phantasms are already a tried and true model; Turret Detonate and strong Toolbelt skills would seem to point towards a design intention of such; it’s just that the cooldowns don’t reflect that kind of design.
Healing Turret’s drop and pop is already there; as is Rifle Turret, in a way. What remains is just bringing the rest of the turrets up to speed and making them scale. Trying to split the difference and making them just as viable at 100% uptime as they are at 10-20% uptime when under AOE pressure is an exercise in futility.
Iva Malthias – 80 Engineer
Marellune Malthias – 80 Elementalist
Devil’s Dominion [DD] – Yak’s Bend
Marellune Malthias – 80 Elementalist
Devil’s Dominion [DD] – Yak’s Bend
Sure a turret build is ok for pve, maybe wvw? If you want 0 loot but just help zerg.
Anyway to get the most out of these grandmaster traits you will at least need 2-3 turrets in your build. Because like you said all turrets work fine on their own, but thats about it, and for that you can pick better skills instead. Something that DOES actually synchornize with your build and traits. Or do you really want to pick grandmaster traits so you can bring rifle turret in your build.
Most fights are fast paced and moving.
Think of dungeon runs: you move from trash to next passage, to boss, move a lot on most bosses, move to more trash, next passage around the corner…
Turret cooldowns are not fitting any of this.
Rifle and Flame: yes, if picked up immediatly. not if left out for buffs and damage…
The rest: heck no, way too long before they are ready again.
You lose them for half the fights if not more, counting trash and not just the bosses.
And that’s not even counting the fact turrets simply get destroyed by almost every boss or pack of mobs…
WvW: that’s ALL about moving, all the time, be it roaming, zerging, skirmishing… whatever. Only at doors you move less. And whatever turrets add there, you lose by them being killed by guards, plain and simple.
Turrets are great for point fights, or something like WvW duels.
in point fights I assume they don’t last long if it’s more than one opponent either, too much cleave and aoe going on.
I really like the new turret traits.
But in their general use turrets are still too squishy on too long cooldowns.
I hope I’m wrong, but at least in WvW they seem to be destroyed way too fast for me.
If I spend 60 to 70 trait points on turrets to make them great group support, I expect the dam things to actually stay up for more than a few seconds in such a group fight!
Wiggely, wobbely and other wombaty wabbity creatures…