Guild Wars 2

Hi guys. Now, while it’s true that I haven’t played engineer for much (only ~lv25) I feel very lacking, weapon wise. It’s true engi gets weapon kits, but why should I give up a utility skill for (essentially) a weapon swap, when other professions are just getting a weapon swap?
I really don’t want\need “play it if you enjoy it, don’t complain” comments, because this is a problem I see in engi that I’d like to see other people comment on and voice their opinions – I like engineer, but I feel wrong giving up a util slot.
Thanks!

Ahh, I remember the good old days when I discovered this.

Fact of the matter is, engineers do technically have 1 less weapon swap (assuming kits ever become weapons) than everyone else.

This is of course, due to the way kits take up utilities.

Engineer:
5 weapon skills, 1 heal, 3 utilities, 1 elite, toolbelt mechanic

Everyone else (and elementalist):
10(20)weapon skills, 1 utility, 1 elite and a class mechanic(attunements)

So in the end, giving up a utility slot, so that engineers have the same number of ‘weapon skills’ as everyone else, means that the engineer suddenly has 1 less utility.

And that’s it I suppose. A choice, you either have less utility, or less weapon skills.

Its not like its a balancing concern, its more of a design concern if you don’t appreciate it. Engineers are in theory equally balanced with 0 kits and 4 kits so… hopefully it isn’t an issue.

And don’t listen to anyone who will tell you “but you get a toolbelt”, its old nonsense. You do lose a utility slot. No getting around it.

Aiden.6483:

Hi guys. Now, while it’s true that I haven’t played engineer for much (only ~lv25) I feel very lacking, weapon wise. It’s true engi gets weapon kits, but why should I give up a utility skill for (essentially) a weapon swap, when other professions are just getting a weapon swap?
I really don’t want\need “play it if you enjoy it, don’t complain” comments, because this is a problem I see in engi that I’d like to see other people comment on and voice their opinions – I like engineer, but I feel wrong giving up a util slot.
Thanks!

I like the way it is now, generally. I feel the class mechanic off F keys gives them decent value as a utility.

Honestly though, I will tell people not to play it if they do not enjoy it. Nothing personal. This is just the 19 thread of this nature this week, they seem to pop up daily if not more, and it does get old, reading threads from players trying to rehash discussions of changing a class because they do not like the same issues you brought up.

Tobe totally honest, I believe that once the class gets some broken abilities and skills fixed, alot of bugs fixed, a good many opnions and views of the class will change to a serious degree.

Not even the worst part about kits. The worst being the fact that when you equip one and it replaces your 1-5 skills you lose the stat bonuses of the item/items you previously had equipped. When I use grenade kit I watch as my crit chance drops several percentage points, same for power and critical damage.

You can’t really do viable damage with a weapon, but when you use a kit, they reduce your stats… awesome! Also, any sigils you may have had equipped, also null and void. Here you go, lose 2 slots worth of stats and potentially 2 sigils, now go kill stuff!

i dont even use kits, why use kits if your main weapon does a better job (except for those noob people trying to trow grenades into groups of people… luckily people in spvp nowadays dont tend to stand in bombs and yust avoid grenades)

Aiden.6483:

Hi guys. Now, while it’s true that I haven’t played engineer for much (only ~lv25) I feel very lacking, weapon wise. It’s true engi gets weapon kits, but why should I give up a utility skill for (essentially) a weapon swap, when other professions are just getting a weapon swap?
I really don’t want\need “play it if you enjoy it, don’t complain” comments, because this is a problem I see in engi that I’d like to see other people comment on and voice their opinions – I like engineer, but I feel wrong giving up a util slot.
Thanks!

Eh you also get a toolbelt skill from your utility slot… You can pretend that your toolbelt is your utility bar, does that make you feel better?

Lyuben.2613:

Engineer:
5 weapon skills, 1 heal, 3 utilities, 1 elite, toolbelt mechanic

Everyone else (and elementalist):
10(20)weapon skills, 1 utility, 1 elite and a class mechanic(attunements)

lolwat. Attunements just put cooldowns on your current and previously used spells. Toolbelt means you get extra kitten skills. Are you claiming that eles have better utility than engis? Just..no.

But i guess class forums are always a bit whiny so whatevs.

Lyuben.2613:

And don’t listen to anyone who will tell you “but you get a toolbelt”, its old nonsense. You do lose a utility slot. No getting around it.

care to explain?
cause im quite sure this is pretty wrong.

when you hit orr, this becomes an issue, as you really do need your utility slots (you kinda must have condition removal/run speed/stun break) and having 1 taken up but your kit is just annoying. The toolbelt skill is is generally rubbish. The Flamethrower toolbelt doesn’t even work with the flamethrower only works with the rifle or pistol.

I think allowing us to add a kit to weapon swap would really go a long way to making turrent engineer possible

@Achmed

People often justify kits by saying ‘But you get a toolbelt! So you don’t lose a utility’

For example, when someone says “I don’t like that I lose a utility slot to get a flamethrower, when every other class has 10 or more weapon skills naturally at no cost to their utility slots”, someone might answer “you don’t lose a utility slot, you get incendiary ammo!”

Which is of course, false, but it is a common response.
Lets take a look at a few things to disprove it:

Engineer with 0 kits=
5 weapon skills, 1 heal skill, 3 utilities, 1 elite, 4 toolbelt skills
Engineer with 1 kit
10 weapon skills, 1 heal skill, 2 utilities, 1 elite, 4 toolbelt skills
Engineer with 2 kit
15 weapon skills, 1 heal skill, 1 utilities, 1 elite, 4 toolbelt skills
Engineer with 3 kit
20 weapon skills, 1 heal skill, 0 utilities, 1 elite, 4 toolbelt skills

So, as you can clearly see. The only thing that changes when you add a kit is loss of one utility, and gaining of 5 weapon skills. Now obviously, right now you never gain 5 weapon skills but for the sake of simplicity, lets assume that kits are not bundles, but weapons. As you can see, you always, in every build, get a toolbelt skill, no matter what you do, its present in every build. 0 kits, and 3 kits. So, taking a kit is basically a choice you make. Do I want access to 5 more weapon abilities than usual? And it comes at the cost of a utility slot.

Its a simple trade off. 5 weapon skills for 1 utility.

What OP has identified is that the engineers need to lose 1 utility, to reach the base number of weapon skills that every other class has. And it is true.

Whether or not that concept is one you like or dislike, depends on whether or not you like kits, and think its a worthwhile sacrifice.

GankSinatra.2653:

Lyuben.2613:

Engineer:
5 weapon skills, 1 heal, 3 utilities, 1 elite, toolbelt mechanic

Everyone else (and elementalist):
10(20)weapon skills, 1 utility, 1 elite and a class mechanic(attunements)

lolwat. Attunements just put cooldowns on your current and previously used spells. Toolbelt means you get extra kitten skills. Are you claiming that eles have better utility than engis? Just..no.

But i guess class forums are always a bit whiny so whatevs.

What are you talking about?

I’m saying that all elementalists have 20 weapon skills, 1 heal skill, 3 utilities and 1 elite skill.

I was only making a comment about the number of utilities, and weapon skills.

I’m not making a judgement, I am just comparing numbers.

I mean… honestly. The engineers utilities, in my opinion of course, are better than the elementalists. Literally in one case as I have found out.

Elixir S:
3s evade, instant stun break, can use utilities and heal while evading.
60s cooldown

Mist Form:
3s evade, instant stun break, can use utilities and heal while evading.
75s cooldown.

Lyuben.2613:

@Achmed

People often justify kits by saying ‘But you get a toolbelt! So you don’t lose a utility’

snip

Engineer with 0 kits=
5 weapon skills, 1 heal skill, 3 utilities, 1 elite, 4 toolbelt skills
Engineer with 1 kit
10 weapon skills, 1 heal skill, 2 utilities, 1 elite, 4 toolbelt skills
Engineer with 2 kit
15 weapon skills, 1 heal skill, 1 utilities, 1 elite, 4 toolbelt skills
Engineer with 3 kit
20 weapon skills, 1 heal skill, 0 utilities, 1 elite, 4 toolbelt skills

snip

Its a simple trade off. 5 weapon skills for 1 utility.

But somehow you seem to completly ignore that Kits usualy have utility skills as well
bomb kit – smoke and gluebomb
grenade kit – freeze and blind
Tool kit – shield, snare (and magnet?)
elixir gun – speedbuff, super elixir and acid bomb
Flamethrower – knockback and blind

thats plenty of utility skills. and all these kit have an addition free attack/skill if you choose the right trait. also, we are the only class that actualy has changeable toolbelt skills. This all leaves us more skills then any other class out there will ever have.
this makes up for the so called lost utility slots pretty well for me. especialy since their cooldowns are usualy rather low.

Im running arround with 4 kits BECAUSE it gives me more then double utility skills then i would gain from a normal utility skill.

achmed.6542:

Lyuben.2613:

@Achmed

People often justify kits by saying ‘But you get a toolbelt! So you don’t lose a utility’

snip

Engineer with 0 kits=
5 weapon skills, 1 heal skill, 3 utilities, 1 elite, 4 toolbelt skills
Engineer with 1 kit
10 weapon skills, 1 heal skill, 2 utilities, 1 elite, 4 toolbelt skills
Engineer with 2 kit
15 weapon skills, 1 heal skill, 1 utilities, 1 elite, 4 toolbelt skills
Engineer with 3 kit
20 weapon skills, 1 heal skill, 0 utilities, 1 elite, 4 toolbelt skills

snip

Its a simple trade off. 5 weapon skills for 1 utility.

But somehow you seem to completly ignore that Kits usualy have utility skills as well
bomb kit – smoke and gluebomb
grenade kit – freeze and blind
Tool kit – shield, snare (and magnet?)
elixir gun – speedbuff, super elixir and acid bomb
Flamethrower – knockback and blind

thats plenty of utility skills. and all these kit have an addition free attack/skill if you choose the right trait. also, we are the only class that actualy has changeable toolbelt skills. This all leaves us more skills then any other class out there will ever have.
this makes up for the so called lost utility slots pretty well for me. especialy since their cooldowns are usualy rather low.

Im running arround with 4 kits BECAUSE it gives me more then double utility skills then i would gain from a normal utility skill.

Those aren’t utility skills.

Those are weapon skills.

I don’t count jump shot as a utility… do you?

A utility is a very specific thing, and it is a skill that goes in slot 7-9

But by your own definition, Lyuben, kits are utility skills. Which they are.

And how do toolbelt skills not count for anything? There’s one for each utility slot, so even if you’re not counting a kit as a true utility skill for some reason, you still have extra skills on your bar that you were able to choose and make your build around.

arcdash.4039:

But by your own definition, Lyuben, kits are utility skills. Which they are.

And how do toolbelt skills not count for anything? There’s one for each utility slot, so even if you’re not counting a kit as a true utility skill for some reason, you still have extra skills on your bar that you were able to choose and make your build around.

No the toolbelt doesn’t count because you get a toolbelt regardless of whether or not you pick a kit. Did you not read anything I posted?

1 kit= 4 toolbelts
0 kit= 4 toolbelts

Therefore, the kit granting you a toolbelt is irrelevant.

And by my definition? No.. kits aren’t utilities. The kit is found there, but it is in reality, access to 5 weapon skills.

An engineer with 3 kits has the following:

5 weapon skills, 1 heal, elite, 4 toolbelts on his bar at any time.

With 0 kits he has:

5 weapon skills, 1 heal, 3 utilities, elite, 4 toolbelts on his bar.

The distinction is, that kits are a ‘dead slot’. The thing that goes on the utility bar, is simply “use kit” and “stow kit”, its not an ability. It simply changes your first 5 by equipping a bundle.

To call a kit a utility, is to call the “Equip Flamethrower” button, a utility. Which it isn’t. It is simply something that facilitates changing your weapon skills, nothing more.

Engineers lose a utility skill, when they add a kit, to gain access to 5 different weapon skills. Why is this concept so foreign and hard to understand?

No i did not read what you posted. Because you’re just trying to tell us how your favorite class is underpowered. There are people in each of the classes forums arguing about how their class is underpowered in one way or another.

Toolbelts are effectively extra utility skills, by choosing one utility skill, you get two skills with different effects. Other classes only get one skill per utility slot, while Engies get 2. Sure, if you pick a kit, you’d get 5 weapon skills and a toolbelt skill, but that’d be like a Thief having grenades in the secondary weapon slot and having grenade barrage as a utility, except you would’ve have nearly as much switching cooldown. Or you could take Rocket Boots and Rocket Kick for what is effectively extra utility, something another class would have. The reason Engies have toolbelt skills is so that they aren’t sacrificing a slot just for the weapon skills, they still get something to use when they’re not using the kit. So basically…the toolbelt skills act in place of the lost utlility skills.

Take for example the healing skill Med Kit. The kit itself is somewhat weak healing wise, and the main self heal, which for another class would be the skill in the utility slot, is actually the toolbelt skill. But the kit itself is still valuable in the healing slot because it also functions as a weapon slot like you’ve said.

So basically…Engies get 4 extra skills to use to their discretion. Most of them tend to stand on their own, especially the kit ones.

Lyuben.2613:

Those aren’t utility skills.
Those are weapon skills.
I don’t count jump shot as a utility… do you?
A utility is a very specific thing, and it is a skill that goes in slot 7-9

By my defintion a utility skill serves passive or defensive purposes or enable me to utilize its effect somehow. So yes, I do call jump shot a utility skill. it can help me closing or gaining a gap.

if you choose the nitpicky way of seeing things then yes, kits are not a utility skill.

But if you see Kits as an extention of utility skills, like i do, you got way more then any other class will ever get. Especialy with tools :IV which will give every kit an additional spell/attack.

achmed.6542:

Lyuben.2613:

Those aren’t utility skills.
Those are weapon skills.
I don’t count jump shot as a utility… do you?
A utility is a very specific thing, and it is a skill that goes in slot 7-9

By my defintion a utility skill serves passive or defensive purposes or enable me to utilize its effect somehow. So yes, I do call jump shot a utility skill. it can help me closing or gaining a gap.

if you choose the nitpicky way of seeing things then yes, kits are not a utility skill.

But if you see Kits as an extention of utility skills, like i do, you got way more then any other class will ever get.

Yours is the nitpicky way I’m afraid.

Having utility, does not make you a utility skill. You are mistaking one thing, that has a similar name, to something else that it has nothing to do with.

A utility skill, goes in the 7-9 slots.

Kits do go there, but they do not contribute to the number of utility skills, since all they do is change skill 1-5, rather than being used WITH your skills 1-5.

arcdash.4039:

No i did not read what you posted. Because you’re just trying to tell us how your favorite class is underpowered. There are people in each of the classes forums arguing about how their class is underpowered in one way or another.

Toolbelts are effectively extra utility skills, by choosing one utility skill, you get two skills with different effects. Other classes only get one skill per utility slot, while Engies get 2. Sure, if you pick a kit, you’d get 5 weapon skills and a toolbelt skill, but that’d be like a Thief having grenades in the secondary weapon slot and having grenade barrage as a utility, except you would’ve have nearly as much switching cooldown. Or you could take Rocket Boots and Rocket Kick for what is effectively extra utility, something another class would have. The reason Engies have toolbelt skills is so that they aren’t sacrificing a slot just for the weapon skills, they still get something to use when they’re not using the kit. So basically…the toolbelt skills act in place of the lost utlility skills.

Take for example the healing skill Med Kit. The kit itself is somewhat weak healing wise, and the main self heal, which for another class would be the skill in the utility slot, is actually the toolbelt skill. But the kit itself is still valuable in the healing slot because it also functions as a weapon slot like you’ve said.

So basically…Engies get 4 extra skills to use to their discretion. Most of them tend to stand on their own, especially the kit ones.

Hold on. Just think about this. You say I get 4 extra slots to make up for losing 1. So a net gain of three slots. But the problem I see is that Elementalist gets 20 weapon skills and 3 utility slots. More than all mine put together. Mesmer gets 10 weapon skills, 3 utility skills, and 4 F1-F4 keys that provide them with utility. The Thief gets the ability to have 0 CD on all 10 of their weapon skills for as long as they can keep Initiative up AND some of their BEST utilities and trait trees regen the stuff for them? And they still get 3 utilities. Guardians get 10 weapon slots, 3 utilities, and 3 constant buffs that can become party-wide for a CD providing utility. These other classes get the same or more utility on their bars than us and maintain 3 Utilities to do it. I have to drop one just to match that?

Don’t get me wrong. I like the IDEA of Weapon Kits, but I don’t want to slot them if they aren’t worth it. It’s not losing the slot that I complain about, it’s losing the slot to something that: doesn’t save auto attacks, doesn’t get weapon stats, doesn’t activate swap sigils, AND still has buggy abilities or bad synergy with the class/other skills in the kit. If they fix all that, then I’ll slot them happily. Until then, I will do so unhappily as my support/Condition build makes the most of EG as it is currently because that kit was MADE for builds like that.

SixSins.7610:

arcdash.4039:

No i did not read what you posted. Because you’re just trying to tell us how your favorite class is underpowered. There are people in each of the classes forums arguing about how their class is underpowered in one way or another.

Toolbelts are effectively extra utility skills, by choosing one utility skill, you get two skills with different effects. Other classes only get one skill per utility slot, while Engies get 2. Sure, if you pick a kit, you’d get 5 weapon skills and a toolbelt skill, but that’d be like a Thief having grenades in the secondary weapon slot and having grenade barrage as a utility, except you would’ve have nearly as much switching cooldown. Or you could take Rocket Boots and Rocket Kick for what is effectively extra utility, something another class would have. The reason Engies have toolbelt skills is so that they aren’t sacrificing a slot just for the weapon skills, they still get something to use when they’re not using the kit. So basically…the toolbelt skills act in place of the lost utlility skills.

Take for example the healing skill Med Kit. The kit itself is somewhat weak healing wise, and the main self heal, which for another class would be the skill in the utility slot, is actually the toolbelt skill. But the kit itself is still valuable in the healing slot because it also functions as a weapon slot like you’ve said.

So basically…Engies get 4 extra skills to use to their discretion. Most of them tend to stand on their own, especially the kit ones.

Hold on. Just think about this. You say I get 4 extra slots to make up for losing 1. So a net gain of three slots. But the problem I see is that Elementalist gets 20 weapon skills and 3 utility slots. More than all mine put together. Mesmer gets 10 weapon skills, 3 utility skills, and 4 F1-F4 keys that provide them with utility. The Thief gets the ability to have 0 CD on all 10 of their weapon skills for as long as they can keep Initiative up AND some of their BEST utilities and trait trees regen the stuff for them? And they still get 3 utilities. Guardians get 10 weapon slots, 3 utilities, and 3 constant buffs that can become party-wide for a CD providing utility. These other classes get the same or more utility on their bars than us and maintain 3 Utilities to do it. I have to drop one just to match that?

Don’t get me wrong. I like the IDEA of Weapon Kits, but I don’t want to slot them if they aren’t worth it. It’s not losing the slot that I complain about, it’s losing the slot to something that: doesn’t save auto attacks, doesn’t get weapon stats, doesn’t activate swap sigils, AND still has buggy abilities or bad synergy with the class/other skills in the kit. If they fix all that, then I’ll slot them happily. Until then, I will do so unhappily as my support/Condition build makes the most of EG as it is currently because that kit was MADE for builds like that.

That is indeed a fair point.

Kits are, by all means, inferior weapons.

They ought to be weapons. Like attunements for the elementalist.

They recently changed elementalists to use on swap sigils, so change kits to be like attunements, just with a 1s cooldown.

Lyuben.2613:

Having utility, does not make you a utility skill. You are mistaking one thing, that has a similar name, to something else that it has nothing to do with.

A utility skill, goes in the 7-9 slots.

Thats exactly what i ment with beeing a nitpicker. why care where its placed?

Kits do go there, but they do not contribute to the number of utility skills, since all they do is change skill 1-5, rather than being used WITH your skills 1-5.

With tools:IV they do contribute something and even if not, it usualy just requires a second keypress of the desired skill. Some skills of other classes require them to pre charge them before they can be used. does this disqualify them as utility skill?

And I actualy can use them WITH my 1-5 skills.
if you cant use them with your weapon then you probably just havent figured out how to switch weapons yet.

achmed.6542:

Lyuben.2613:

Having utility, does not make you a utility skill. You are mistaking one thing, that has a similar name, to something else that it has nothing to do with.

A utility skill, goes in the 7-9 slots.

Thats exactly what i ment with beeing a nitpicker. why care where its placed?

Kits do go there, but they do not contribute to the number of utility skills, since all they do is change skill 1-5, rather than being used WITH your skills 1-5.

With tools:IV they do contribute something and even if not, it usualy just requires a second keypress of the desired skill. Some skills of other classes require them to pre charge them before they can be used. does this disqualify them as utility skill?

And I actualy can use them WITH my 1-5 skills.
if you cant use them with your weapon then you probably just havent figured out how to switch weapons yet.

You can’t use kits with your 1-5 skills because kits are your 1-5 skills.

You have to swap to use both.

arcdash.4039:

Toolbelts are effectively extra utility skills, by choosing one utility skill, you get two skills with different effects. Other classes only get one skill per utility slot, while Engies get 2. Sure, if you pick a kit, you’d get 5 weapon skills and a toolbelt skill, but that’d be like a Thief having grenades in the secondary weapon slot and having grenade barrage as a utility, except you would’ve have nearly as much switching cooldown. Or you could take Rocket Boots and Rocket Kick for what is effectively extra utility, something another class would have. The reason Engies have toolbelt skills is so that they aren’t sacrificing a slot just for the weapon skills, they still get something to use when they’re not using the kit. So basically…the toolbelt skills act in place of the lost utlility skills.

So basically…Engies get 4 extra skills to use to their discretion. Most of them tend to stand on their own, especially the kit ones.

Here is the thing, tool belts are our class mechanic. Engineers are supposed to be more utility focused anyways. Rocket boots are a great example. They can be a great defensive ability, or, thanks to our utility, they can be a great offensive ability. It goes with the flavor of the skill. For the devs, those extra skills are equivalent to the elementalists attunements, a ranger’s pet, a mesmer’s illusions, etc. So yes, we have extra skills, but at a cost of not having a pet, or illusions, or whatever. That is balanced, and doesn’t fall into this conversation, because everyone else has the same skill bar, so yes, we get a tool belt, but we get that because we don’t get attunements, or pets, or illusions, or something else.

Now, the core issue at hand is, the weapon’s kits themselves, have no utility in them. If I have the FT slotted into my first util slot, and I hit 7, I don’t get utility; instead, I holster my weapon, and draw out of my backpack of hidden objects, a very large FT. There is no utility in that skill. What happens though, is my weapons skills change, and now I have 5 new weapon skills at a cost of one completely dead utility skill slot. Is that worth it?

That is like saying to a warrior, I am sorry, you can’t use a great sword unless you put it on your skill bar as a utility skill. When you hit that utility skill, you pull out a great sword. They didn’t do this for any other class, but the opted for this route on the engineer. Whether it is OP or UP, I am not saying, but the argument that is being made that as engineers, kits kill a utility slot is utterly valid, and ignoring the tool belt as a utility is likewise utterly valid, because it is our class mechanic, unique to the engi class, and balanced by other unique class mechanics.

Well said, Brutus and Lyuben.

We have to sacrifice a utility slot in order to have an extra weapon, so we are hindered from the start with attack and utility options.

A good example of this hindering us very much is PvP.

Many players use a variety of stunlock and conditions to defeat other players. Usually a player will stack a utility effect to remove stuns, a utility effect to remove conditions, and still have a free utility slot to do something else. Yes, some of their healing skills remove conditions, but there are drawbacks.

If an engineer wants a second weapon set, he has to spend a utility slot to get it. This means he doesn’t have an extra utility to use. So if he wants a special effect, he now has to sacrifice either a condition-removal or a stun-removal utility.

We have lose a utility slot in order to have more weapon flexibility.

Sporadicus.1028:

Well said, Brutus and Lyuben.

We have to sacrifice a utility slot in order to have an extra weapon, so we are hindered from the start with attack and utility options.

A good example of this hindering us very much is PvP.

Many players use a variety of stunlock and conditions to defeat other players. Usually a player will stack a utility effect to remove stuns, a utility effect to remove conditions, and still have a free utility slot to do something else. Yes, some of their healing skills remove conditions, but there are drawbacks.

If an engineer wants a second weapon set, he has to spend a utility slot to get it. This means he doesn’t have an extra utility to use. So if he wants a special effect, he now has to sacrifice either a condition-removal or a stun-removal utility.

We have lose a utility slot in order to have more weapon flexibility.

To be fair, I am fine with this system.

But it is as you described.

Whether it is one that you like or don’t like is down to you really.

Sporadicus.1028:

Well said, Brutus and Lyuben.

We have to sacrifice a utility slot in order to have an extra weapon, so we are hindered from the start with attack and utility options.

A good example of this hindering us very much is PvP.

Many players use a variety of stunlock and conditions to defeat other players. Usually a player will stack a utility effect to remove stuns, a utility effect to remove conditions, and still have a free utility slot to do something else. Yes, some of their healing skills remove conditions, but there are drawbacks.

If an engineer wants a second weapon set, he has to spend a utility slot to get it. This means he doesn’t have an extra utility to use. So if he wants a special effect, he now has to sacrifice either a condition-removal or a stun-removal utility.

We have lose a utility slot in order to have more weapon flexibility.

I’m fine with that system because, as stated, we get abilities with our abilities. No, they are not utilities. No, they aren’t independent and therefore choices of themselves. But they DO give us some added flexibility. I’d say it’s comparable to blowing up clones. The only problem I have is that Kits currently aren’t on par with normal weapons and it is only because of that fact that I feel this system is currently a drawback.

It depends on how you use it honestly.

I use kit refinement, which gives me an super elixir AoE removal of 1 condition and a heal tick. Gives me an extra AoE cripple and bleed stack (i am a condition build P/S user). It doesn’t help with my bomb kit much though, but I find BoB too handy most of the time, and I like the physical damage on doors and what not of the bomb kit. As well I will do a quick swap for bomb fire field and confusion.

You figure in a trait like kit refinement on top of the tool belt, and it adds up to a great value.

I also swap to kits often for just one skill, like tool kits block, bomb kits fire fields, or elixir guns super elixir or #4 skill to leave an acid pool and clear myself away from the mob. I am finding kits very handy in Orr at the moment.

I don’t see why people have to argue about this so much, my 4 month old can see that u lose a utility slot with a weapon kit

I have 3 utility skills = FT – PBR – Elixir S
I equip FT now a have 2 utility skills = PBR – Elixir S
Swap out of FT is not a valid uitility skill

I think the way to fix it is to add an extra utility type skill to all kits (ie remove stun/remove condition add boon w/e)
This skill would take up the slot where the kit used to be ( ie FT = 7 – 6th skill =7 )
We can just use the swap kit keybind like everyone else to switch back to our weapon.

No reason to use up a utility slot just to have an extra weapon/kit swap button

just mho

Due note – that we get free weapon slot cooldowns (basically) for swapping in between kits while other classes have 5 seconds. That is something that shouldn’t be ignored in this conversation.

^ What AndrewWaltfeld said; this can be a major advantage if you don’t mind quick and nervous combat (and isn’t that what GW2 is all about?).

I run with the flamethrower or elixir gun and being able to jump in and out of them quickitteno get that knockback, AoE blind, cripple, healing-field, etc. can be a big advantage.

The only real fix needed is sigils/auto-attack imo, but that’s been mentioned plenty and I’m sure it’ll be fixed Soon™.

[edit] Why in the world is the word “quick-ly” being censored to “quickitteno”?

Due note – that we get free weapon slot cooldowns (basically) for swapping in between kits while other classes have 5 seconds. That is something that shouldn’t be ignored in this conversation.

While ele get FIFTEEN seconds cooldown on attunes. My engi gets has a 0.5 cooldown and six new abilities from slotting 1 utility skill with a weapon kit. You can use rifle skills, switch to a weapon kit, and then your rifle skills are back up. An ele cant do this. And then i can pick a true utility skill on my utility bar, and i get an extra utility in my toolbelt even. No more 75 second cd mist forms, i get a 45 second mist form PLUS a throwable stability/stealth instead, from 1 utility slot.

Despite weapon and med kit feeling really unresponsive at times i think engis got a really good deal. Thats from playing both eles and engi who are somewhat similar in respects.

arcdash.4039:

No i did not read what you posted. Because you’re just trying to tell us how your favorite class is underpowered. There are people in each of the classes forums arguing about how their class is underpowered in one way or another.

Toolbelts are effectively extra utility skills, by choosing one utility skill, you get two skills with different effects. Other classes only get one skill per utility slot, while Engies get 2. Sure, if you pick a kit, you’d get 5 weapon skills and a toolbelt skill, but that’d be like a Thief having grenades in the secondary weapon slot and having grenade barrage as a utility, except you would’ve have nearly as much switching cooldown. Or you could take Rocket Boots and Rocket Kick for what is effectively extra utility, something another class would have. The reason Engies have toolbelt skills is so that they aren’t sacrificing a slot just for the weapon skills, they still get something to use when they’re not using the kit. So basically…the toolbelt skills act in place of the lost utlility skills.

Take for example the healing skill Med Kit. The kit itself is somewhat weak healing wise, and the main self heal, which for another class would be the skill in the utility slot, is actually the toolbelt skill. But the kit itself is still valuable in the healing slot because it also functions as a weapon slot like you’ve said.

So basically…Engies get 4 extra skills to use to their discretion. Most of them tend to stand on their own, especially the kit ones.

If you didn’t read the post, don’t comment.
Engi is not my favorite class, I’ve not implied it in any way, don’t bullkitten before you read. Educate yourself.
And toolbelt skills do not “justify” losing a utility slot seeing as you get toolbelt skills REGARDLESS of anything. So basically (i’m just repeating what was said before me)
Engi with 0 kits: 5 weapon, 1 heal, 3 util, 1 elite, 4 toolbelt
Engi with 3 kits: 20 weapon, 1 heal, 1 elite, 4 toolbelt.
Since every util has a toolbelt skill, each util is kind of “worth” 2 util skills, and when you use kits you only get the toolbelt skill, and LOSE a util slot.