Guild Wars 2

I main mesmer, and my first thought seeing that we get the new condition was thakittens an added perk that I’d probably never notice. Thieves seem to be saying the same thing. It got me thinking about the intended use of the condition. To me, it sound like a condition that should be given to non-mobile classes to punish mobile ones..and yet they gave it to two of the most mobile classes. It also probably should have been given to classes that were designed with conditions in mind. Necromancer is perfect for this – they have some real mobility problems, and can make good use of condition damage. Engineers, I think are very similar in those respects.

I’d like to know what experience engineers think about this. Is there something I’m not considering? Because I think engineers once again got socks and sweaters for Christmas, while thieves and mesmers are just going to throw out that shiny new toy truck that engis would kill to have.

It would seem to me that Torment would benefit that classes that move the slowest or have the fewest gap closers so that it is easier to pin down your opponent, so yes, I think that Engineers and Necros (and necro more than engi) are, logically, the best candidates for Torment, along with Warriors.

Giving a mobility curse to highly mobile classes just seems wrong.

That said, if specced properly, the Engi is considerably mobile, so I can see points against Engi having torment as well.

nakoda.4213:

…
That said, if specced properly, the Engi is considerably mobile…

Please elaborate. We have a rifle leap and swiftness; no teleports, no gap closing attacks (with the exception of rocket kick which is buggy and painful to use), and painfully low access to skills that assist in escape, like stability and stealth.

So please explain the spec where we have the mobility/escape potential of a thief or a mesmer…

Sure, we got it all over a Necro, but they have a monster health pool (several, in fact) and have access to the new condition.

That’s true – just a 10 point investment will get you perma-swiftness, which is nothing to scoff at. But for me, its more a case of : thieves and mesmer don’t need it, and more to the point, probably wont make good use of it. I don’t think giving engineers torment would make them ridiculously op (though it would depend on how it was implemented), and we would actually make good use of the condition. Thieves and mesmers don’t need more ways to catch their opponents – we could use a few. We aren’t in desperate need of it like necros are, but I think thieves especially are about the worst class you could pick, and we are one of the better ones.

Lorewise, it wouldn’t make any sense with the current skills, imho.
If they made a skill where the engineer drops essays about physics and electronics, then yeah, it could be appropriate (torment and confusion, yay).
Anyway, as nakoda says, giving it to highly mobile classes is just wrong.
We’ve got a different type of mobility than mesmers and thieves – we can do jumps across the x axis, but nothing about vertical mobility and no teleport skills – so they should balance whether we really need that condition or not.

Considering (if the leaked patch notes are true) necros are getting burn, I don’t think the devs are taking lore much into consideration.

For me, teleport skills are what torment should be punishing, because teleports trump cc like cripples and even immobilizes. We can move fast, and it is good mobility, but theives and mesmers can do everything we can do and more. Giving us torment would be a way for us to deal with those hyper mobile classes.

I never really considered mesmers to be a very mobile class. At least in pvp, they’re usually slow. I mean, they’ve got blink and portal, but that’s it. I personally don’t think the thief should get the condi, I’m ok with mesmers & necro, though.

We don’t know for sure that we’re not getting torment since we haven’t seen the official patch notes.

In any case, we might not get it due to thematic reasons, or perhaps we can obtain it through a trait. If we had easy access to it, it could make our condition pressure builds even more powerful than they are already, which could easily be over-the-top.

Additionally, if the patch notes are true, it seems like it will be a more powerful version of bleed, so the damage will not be too insane. This likely also means it will require condition damage, whereas most thieves use power-based builds and most condition mesmers focus on confusion. In my experience, condition damage-based thief builds are of not as mobile as other builds, nor do they have the extreme burst potential. I haven’t had a lot of experience with condition mesmer builds, but the common glamour builds focus mostly on confusion and will probably just consider torment a side-benefit.

So perhaps it was given those those professions because they identified a need for more support in their condition builds whereas are condition builds are probably pretty good for now.

I guess we’ll have to see how it plays out. There was a lot of hubub over things like destruction of the empowered in the past and how it was going to destroy all engineers and guardians across the board, but I’m not sure most people even continue to run that trait anymore. Torment might have a similar level of hype.

Honestly a good place for Torment to be implemented, would be on Tool Kit. You swap out the Bleed on Box of Nails with Torment, and it matches perfectly.

Kawloon Fuathach.3807:

Honestly a good place for Torment to be implemented, would be on Tool Kit. You swap out the Bleed on Box of Nails with Torment, and it matches perfectly.

that and flame jet.

;)

Kawloon Fuathach.3807:

Honestly a good place for Torment to be implemented, would be on Tool Kit. You swap out the Bleed on Box of Nails with Torment, and it matches perfectly.

Eh, they’d give that to caltrops before they gave it to box of nails (AKA caltrops Jr.).

Still, I think that’s a good idea though, makes some good sense. They can either stay still to avoid torment damage, but even if they decide to run away they’ll be facing some cripple. Box of nails could use any help it can get right now.

lunyboy.8672:

nakoda.4213:

…
That said, if specced properly, the Engi is considerably mobile…

Please elaborate. We have a rifle leap and swiftness; no teleports, no gap closing attacks (with the exception of rocket kick which is buggy and painful to use), and painfully low access to skills that assist in escape, like stability and stealth.

So please explain the spec where we have the mobility/escape potential of a thief or a mesmer…

Sure, we got it all over a Necro, but they have a monster health pool (several, in fact) and have access to the new condition.

We have so many “OHKITTEN” buttons its not even funny , but what we do lack is gap closers , beside the magnet and leaving battle via Super Speed i dont know how i’d catch fleeing pray.

rfdarko.4639:

Considering (if the leaked patch notes are true) necros are getting burn, I don’t think the devs are taking lore much into consideration

They’ll be getting Burn from traits one way or another – dev said so a while back. As for lore reasons…well, I don’t know what the trait’s going to be called, and the name can often give insight as to how it’s possibly explained.

Aside from that, I’m not really sure why some of the things mentioned as possible candidates for Torment (Toolkit’s Box of Legos, for example) aren’t getting it – but, then, we’re actually not sure who’s getting what. We know Thieves, Mesmers and Necromancers are getting Torment, that Necromancers are getting Burn, but the ‘leaked’ notes are most likely bullkitten to begin with, and they might simply have not mentioned everything in the announcement. We won’t really know what’s going on until the 25th.

If your engi is specced for permaswift, you don’t need Torment.

^ That would mean a necro with speed signet or a thief with the same wouldn’t need it either.

I think the best candidate for implementing torment would be in the shrapnel trait, it would punish the ones kiting badly and would conceptually work good (kiting the rain of grenades makes torment deal double damage, trying to get out of the bombing runs deals more damage etc.

miriforst.1290:

^ That would mean a necro with speed signet or a thief with the same wouldn’t need it either.

I think the best candidate for implementing torment would be in the shrapnel trait, it would punish the ones kiting badly and would conceptually work good (kiting the rain of grenades makes torment deal double damage, trying to get out of the bombing runs deals more damage etc.

I run a build that allows for permaswift in combat. Permaswift outside of combat, for me, isn’t that important unless I’m running WvW. Don’t know about you, but Engineers don’t lose much in exchange for permaswift compared to Necromancers who have to give up an extra utility slot (assuming you use Speedy Kits with Med Kit and other).

That being said…

lunyboy.8672:

nakoda.4213:

…
That said, if specced properly, the Engi is considerably mobile…

Please elaborate. We have a rifle leap and swiftness; no teleports, no gap closing attacks (with the exception of rocket kick which is buggy and painful to use), and painfully low access to skills that assist in escape, like stability and stealth.

So please explain the spec where we have the mobility/escape potential of a thief or a mesmer…

Sure, we got it all over a Necro, but they have a monster health pool (several, in fact) and have access to the new condition.

mobility: speedy kits.
escapes: elixir s.

There seems to be a lot of focus on permanent swiftness, which yes, is good. But as I said above, it’s not a teleport, or a leap. A teleport to me is fundamentally different than just running faster. The ability to move instantaneously, without regard to cripple or chill or even immobility in some cases, is powerful, and its something thieves and mesmers have in abundance.

And in any case, I’m not try to argue that engis are slow. I’m arguing that thieves and mesmers are hyper mobile, and are the last two classes that I would give a mobility punishing condition to. With that in mind, I wondered, who would I give it to? Engis seem like the second best option after necromancers, since we are RELATIVELY less mobile, and we, like necromancers, were designed with conditions in mind.

Currently we have:

Perms swift/vigor via traits, rocket boots, rocket boots toolbelt, elixir r, elixir s, super speed, toolkit kit refinement, jump shot, acid bomb, … I think that’s all.

Keep in mind that those leaked notes are unlikely to be real.

Did I miss any?

I heard some myth of a charge on Elixer X nakoda, and if they were to put torment on engi, napalm looks like a nice candidate.

I’d wet my pants if the FT got torment.

In my little daydream world: Ticks 1 and 5 of Flame Jet would proc 1.5 sec burning, tick 10 proc 1.5 sec torment.

MwaHAhahHaAhHaAhHaHa. Go ahead and run!

But in the real fake world, it’d never happen.

Since engis are more prone to rely on conditions I think we should have been first on the list to use conditions. We need it the most honestly. The conditions we have aren’t balanced in the first place. did you know that the base damage for condi is different per class? if that wasn’t bad enough they don’t have a separate tick per condi per character which makes burns and poison pretty much useless. I understand that bleeds needed a solution for caps but a torment utility for poison, burning should have been considered for engis and engis should definitely have gotten torment

and of course that’s if this is real.

tries hard to get the image of nakoda’s toon wetting his pants out of his mind…. shivers

i wouldnt say we need it the most. at all. it would be a nice addition to the arsenal.

warriors NEED something like torment. necros NEED it too.

we dont.

I’d have to agree; Engineer would have been a far better choice than either Thief or Mesmer. The problem may be though that it’s some sort of dark magical condition, and simply didn’t fit thematically.

i think new condition dont fits too engis , like confusion to necros , isk why some ppl thinks diffrent. Right now engi can stack all codis from the game in few seconds , the presure from it is huge so giving them new condition will brake engis

You don’t think suppressing enemies with a hail of shrapnel grenades is tormenting them? You don’t think roasting the flesh from their bones with a flamethrower is tormenting?
Breaking bottles of acid on them or detonating an acid bomb melting away their feet isn’t tormenting? Spraying them with toxic gas isn’t? Firing a hail of venomous needles or firing darts with a “tranquilizing effect” that seems to prevent coagulation causing them to literally die from the bleeding (internal or external) caused by sometimes up to a hundred darts? Electrocuting an enemy bit by bit until they fall unconscious? Surviving the utter shock to your nerves after being shot point blank with a blunderbuss? Threading in caltrops from the mortar or toolkit don’t make it agonizing to move?

Balance wise i wont comment much but lore and stylewise i can’t see why not, pretty much anything can be explained style and lorewise. Just like necromancers and confusion, you don’t think fear and confusion go hand in hand?.

In the same way you can argue the opposite, “oh the mesmer blocked my attack, and now theres two to pick between, dear me no more of these tormenting pick-the-right -cup games! And for some reason it really hurts when i walk!”.

rfdarko.4639:

There seems to be a lot of focus on permanent swiftness, which yes, is good. But as I said above, it’s not a teleport, or a leap. A teleport to me is fundamentally different than just running faster. The ability to move instantaneously, without regard to cripple or chill or even immobility in some cases, is powerful, and its something thieves and mesmers have in abundance.

I’m of the opposite opinion actually. There seems to be alot of players thinking that mobility is only about teleports, leaps and passive signets. those do not make you escape or catch someone any more than things like permanent swiftness, box of nails, glue shot, glue bomb, chill nades, elixir S, toss S, gear shield, magnet, etc.

also, mesmers and thieves getting torment is because their condition builds are laughable right now. it has little to do with mobility and won’t change much in that regard either.

Maskaganda.2043:

also, mesmers and thieves getting torment is because their condition builds are laughable right now. it has little to do with mobility and won’t change much in that regard either.

That is the worst excuse.

There are 4 damaging conditions in the game already, these wouldnt suffice? They had to get a brand new mechanic? One that also doubles as a mobility inhibitor?
As if Mesmers and Thieves needed another conditions that combines both damage and restricting their targets movement.

If Torment is a mind condition, then Thematically it belongs to Necros (terror) and Mesmers.

But blindly following thematics is sure fire way to screw up balance in a game like Gw2.

‘Torment’ is just a label. Anet are introducing a new condition that punishes movement. This could be anything: terror that takes extra effort to overcome (Necro); swarms of insects that bite anything that moves (Range); hooks that dig in when you move (Eng); etc.

Who will be impacted the most?

• Classes that rely on movement for both inflicting and avoiding damage: i.e. Thieves and (non-grenade) Engs.

Who will be impacted the least?

• Classes with the least reliance on movement to both inflict and avoid damage: i.e. Guardians, Warriors, Eles, Necros.

Who needs it the most?

• Necros – they could use the help. But it won’t help them in PvE where they’re clearly the worst class.

Who needs it the least?

• Mesmers – they’re already a top class in all areas of the game.

Who’s getting it?

• Mesmers, Necros and Thieves.

Other impacts?

• Condition clearing reduced by dilution across more condition types

So Torments is a buff to Necros and Mesmers. Thieves get both its advantages and disadvantages. While worst impacted may be (non-grenade) Engs. Necros need the love – only time will tell if that will be enough to displace condition Engs (but you can bet no one will want both Necro and Eng in a dungeon run).

Sadly, Torment is looking like yet another buff to what is already a top class in the game, while also pushing more Engs from (the necessarily active) ‘mid-range’ builds into grenade builds and further undermining our desirability for dungeon groups.

Terrahero.9358:

Maskaganda.2043:

also, mesmers and thieves getting torment is because their condition builds are laughable right now. it has little to do with mobility and won’t change much in that regard either.

That is the worst excuse.

There are 4 damaging conditions in the game already, these wouldnt suffice? They had to get a brand new mechanic? One that also doubles as a mobility inhibitor?
As if Mesmers and Thieves needed another conditions that combines both damage and restricting their targets movement.

What condition do they currently have that can do that?

In terms of adding condition variety, the only other real options was to add poison to mesmers and burning to thieves. So there aren’t really as many options as you claim, unless you’re advocating they just get more of the same stuff on top of what they have already.

And what would you rather have? Removing torment from them and giving it to engineer? People would just give the same argument you just gave about using one of the other 4 damaging conditions instead of giving us torment.

I agree with Mask as far as thief condition builds are concerned. I’ve played around with them for awhile and just found them to be underwhelming, although I was mostly using it in WvW. Haven’t tried a mesmer one yet though, but it never seemed like an attractive option.

Zenguy.6421:

Who will be impacted the least?

• Classes with the least reliance on movement to both inflict and avoid damage: i.e. Guardians, Warriors, Eles, Necros.

What? How can you even say this? Have you never fought a d/d ele? Are you familiar with the concept of kiting?

There is no profession in the game that does not rely heavily on movement to both inflict and avoid damage. Just try sitting in one spot as one of the classes you mentioned and see if it works out for you.

Although if you were referring to PvE, then I would revert my statement.

My post are from a PvE and WvW perspective. Sorry if that doesn’t suit the passionate but small minority of players that PvP.

Watching players in PvE and WvW, it’s clear that Thieves and non-grenade Engs move around the most.
Why don’t the other classes move as much? My guess is it’s because: a) Guardians and Wariors have so much block/aegis to avoid damage without moving, b) Ranger’s, Mesmers and Necros have ‘pets’ that draw agro off them, and c) a lot of Ele’s stay out of combat and use range attacks.

And, yes d/d Eles will be affected by Torment.

nakoda.4213:

i wouldnt say we need it the most. at all. it would be a nice addition to the arsenal.

warriors NEED something like torment. necros NEED it too.

we dont.

Gasp not a single comment on my last sentence huh?! sigh….

Forsaker.9213:

i think new condition dont fits too engis , like confusion to necros , isk why some ppl thinks diffrent. Right now engi can stack all codis from the game in few seconds , the presure from it is huge so giving them new condition will brake engis

Actually no we can’t only guardians or thieves who’ve stolen plasma. can do that at once we have RNG to deal with.

Yamsandjams.3267:

Terrahero.9358:

Maskaganda.2043:

also, mesmers and thieves getting torment is because their condition builds are laughable right now. it has little to do with mobility and won’t change much in that regard either.

That is the worst excuse.

There are 4 damaging conditions in the game already, these wouldnt suffice? They had to get a brand new mechanic? One that also doubles as a mobility inhibitor?
As if Mesmers and Thieves needed another conditions that combines both damage and restricting their targets movement.

What condition do they currently have that can do that?

In terms of adding condition variety, the only other real options was to add poison to mesmers and burning to thieves. So there aren’t really as many options as you claim, unless you’re advocating they just get more of the same stuff on top of what they have already.

And what would you rather have? Removing torment from them and giving it to engineer? People would just give the same argument you just gave about using one of the other 4 damaging conditions instead of giving us torment.

I agree with Mask as far as thief condition builds are concerned. I’ve played around with them for awhile and just found them to be underwhelming, although I was mostly using it in WvW. Haven’t tried a mesmer one yet though, but it never seemed like an attractive option.

Id say no torment at all, we got to many mechanics already that punish you for just playing the game.

Secondly, the Engineer is a decent condition build. And it manages just fine without Torment.
Making a condition build viable doesnt require the introduction of a completely new condition. Especially not one that inflates an already bloated strength of these two professions.