Guild Wars 2

ellesee.8297:

Terrahero.9358:

ellesee.8297:

you’re level 20 crying for buffs.
next thread.

The issue of blatantly underpowered, and useless traits is well known. And not suddenly, magically, fixed at lv80.
Turrets dont suddenly magically unbreak the moment you ding lv80 either.

A lot of Engineers issues become apparent before you even leave the first zone.

yes because engineers are the only class with bad traits traits. i always see gaggles of elementalists in the starting zones exclaiming how they can’t wait to hit 80 to trait diamond skin.

So because there is another profession with maybe as many poor traits as us (which i’d argue Ele certainly is not) its okay for Engineer to have crap traits?

Instead of something being good, it should be bad because something else is?

Terrahero.9358:

ellesee.8297:

Terrahero.9358:

ellesee.8297:

you’re level 20 crying for buffs.
next thread.

The issue of blatantly underpowered, and useless traits is well known. And not suddenly, magically, fixed at lv80.
Turrets dont suddenly magically unbreak the moment you ding lv80 either.

A lot of Engineers issues become apparent before you even leave the first zone.

yes because engineers are the only class with bad traits traits. i always see gaggles of elementalists in the starting zones exclaiming how they can’t wait to hit 80 to trait diamond skin.

So because there is another profession with maybe as many poor traits as us (which i’d argue Ele certainly is not) its okay for Engineer to have crap traits?

Instead of something being good, it should be bad because something else is?

This thread was started by a new Engineer meant for comparing us to other professions, and questioning if we are weak in that comparison. To ask if traits “should be bad” is a strawman argument of that poster’s point, but comparing to the other professions is kind of the point of the thread.

OP: Engineer traits suck
Thread: All professions have traits that suck

That is on topic.

Anymras.5729:

Funny story, this was actually posted a couple days ago on the Game Discussion boards, as it’s a Guardian’s view of the Engineer.

Then they deleted the post and infracted the poster, who proceeded to appeal it and get “Yeah, that was a mistake. Sorry about that.”

Nice to see they A ) didn’t uninfract the OP despite saying the infraction was a mistake and B ) didn’t even put it back where it was to begin with, instead doing what they should have done and moved it.

I know this because OP is my girlfriend, and posted this from approximately two feet to my left.

Tell her I say hi and sorry for the hijinks of some mod.

Seriously though what eng lacks in terms of raw stats/damage they make up for in flexibility. HgH with boon duration can provide you with a TON of boons and condition removal. Eng’s are also an amazing aoe class. Like others have said many traits need a revamp, but eng is hardly unique in this.

VIVorcha.7853:

ellesee.8297:

you’re level 20 crying for buffs.
next thread.

You say the same thing when a level 80 asks for buffs.

Why are you on these forums if you have nothing to contribute to discussion?

Our traitlines DO suck.

-One of our MAJOR GRANDMASTER traits is a MINOR ADEPT TRAIT for Rangers. 50% faster endurance regen IS NOT GRANDMASTER MATERIAL.
-Infused Precision is the same as Furious Speed (Warrior), but triggers half as often and lasts half as long.

All of our Grandmasters are pretty bad, but there are also many other traits (like Scope) that are even more useless.

i say the same thing when a level 80 cries for unnecessary buffs. if someone made a thread about how engineer turrets are bad, then i’d fully agree. the fact of the matter is, engineers are in a great place. if we weren’t, then top tier tourney teams wouldn’t risk prize money utilizing our class. we will probably be the new tpvp fotm with the upcoming elixir changes. seriously 3 additional aoe condition removals and might stacks and people complain about the rng on toss elixir. if these changes come to pass we will be nerfed right after mark my words.

like i have explained before, comparing traits between classes is moronic. traits are tailored to their specific class. the reason dhuumfire is a grandmaster trait is because necros already have access to many conditions, including fear burst. adding burn on top of fear and high bleed stacks is grandmaster worthy. don’t come in here and go OMG DHUUMFIRE IS WORSE THAN INCENDIARYPOWDER OMFG NECRO TRAITS SUCK. it makes you look idiotic.

yes you have made the argument already about the ranger 5 point endurance regen trait. and yes again you have ignored what i said earlier about how engineers have permanent vigor in the same trait tier. the reason furious speed is better than infused precision is that warriors are melee and swiftness is pretty important on a melee class, though i don’t know of any warrior that uses furious speed because SURPRISE! every class has its bad traits. it’s the same reason why you argued dogged march is an adept while leg mods is master. being crippled, chilled, or immobilized is infinitely worse for melee. please take the class into consideration before you come here crying about traits.

tldr: traits are fine. please take the class into consideration before you come here crying about traits.

Lots of bombs and stubbornness…

I just seen this thread and I was like the op this class suck because this this and this.

So I rolled about 10 different classes trying different things. But I came back to my engi. And now my engi is my main ans I love it.

I don’t care about broken traits of if this could be better or that could do this. The fact is it’s a game and I find this class fun.

My hybrid build that I feel I made myself dishes out great damage from conditions and crits. Has a good toughness to boot with strong healing.

It’s a class I am very proud to play. Flamethrower for show my pistols for doh

It’s about having fun that’s all.

And yet guardians are so easy to get rid off lol

foundling fox.9054:

Engineers: How do you get ANYTHING done?!

Simple – We make the best of it. We are absolutely wracked with bugs, and believed mediocrity compared to the other classes. You can roll a bad thief and still do okay. Likewise, a bad warrior could probably still get a few kills in. You cannot survive as a bad engineer.

Because of this, I almost see our believed mediocrity as a blessing. I KNOW my class.

Probably makes no sense, but that is just my opinion.

I can’t help but feel dirty playing anything else, it’s too mindnumbing and easy.

OptimistPrime.9283:

foundling fox.9054:

Engineers: How do you get ANYTHING done?!

Simple – We make the best of it. We are absolutely wracked with bugs, and believed mediocrity compared to the other classes. You can roll a bad thief and still do okay. Likewise, a bad warrior could probably still get a few kills in. You cannot survive as a bad engineer.

Because of this, I almost see our believed mediocrity as a blessing. I KNOW my class.

Probably makes no sense, but that is just my opinion.

Pretty much how I feel, I am perfectly content with people not understanding engineer. Once people go to other classes it keeps our secrets safe heh.

Adamantium.3682:

Terrahero.9358:

ellesee.8297:

Terrahero.9358:

ellesee.8297:

you’re level 20 crying for buffs.
next thread.

The issue of blatantly underpowered, and useless traits is well known. And not suddenly, magically, fixed at lv80.
Turrets dont suddenly magically unbreak the moment you ding lv80 either.

A lot of Engineers issues become apparent before you even leave the first zone.

yes because engineers are the only class with bad traits traits. i always see gaggles of elementalists in the starting zones exclaiming how they can’t wait to hit 80 to trait diamond skin.

So because there is another profession with maybe as many poor traits as us (which i’d argue Ele certainly is not) its okay for Engineer to have crap traits?

Instead of something being good, it should be bad because something else is?

This thread was started by a new Engineer meant for comparing us to other professions, and questioning if we are weak in that comparison. To ask if traits “should be bad” is a strawman argument of that poster’s point, but comparing to the other professions is kind of the point of the thread.

OP: Engineer traits suck
Thread: All professions have traits that suck

That is on topic.

The OP isnt comparing traits, he is merely remarking that traits we have are bad in the context of the game itself. 1% per boon at 25points isnt very good, especially not on a profession that doesnt have a massive range of boons nor a big upkeep.
Or how Full Endurance makes little sense on a Medium armor profession because part of medium armors defense in particular comes from those extra dodges, as soaking hits isnt as much of an option. Making such a trait rather meager.
Opinion sure, but he doesnt actually draw any direct comparisons to other professions.
It is however just the opinion-thread of a person that feels Engineer traits are bad, and not just traits by the way.

The person i quoted on the otherhand did make a comparison to Elementalist. Saying they have bad traits aswell. Other professions have bad traits is no argument for Engineers having bad traits (or visa versa), infact it has no bearing on this discussion at all.
One profession being poorly designed is no excuse for another to be poorly designed aswell. And thats not a strawman argument.

When I was leveling my engineer back in the day, I ran rifle and turrets I think. I’m trying to remember fully, but I know I ran Healing, Rocket and Rifle turrets and it wasn’t that bad. That was when using the Healing Turret skill healed the most out of all the skills and did so much more than what the elixir did, but all that’s gone now. What you really need to do with the turrets is get Metal Plating, because it reduces damage to turrets by 33%. An engineer, in my honest opinion, is a condition damage class because you can apply so many debuffs so quickly, and have access to multiple ways to apply conditions other than Torment. Once you figure that out, things get much easier.

As for beginning traits that are good; Self Regulating Defenses, Rifled Barrels, Hair Trigger, Metal Plating, Precise Sights, and Incendiary Powder are excellent choices.

Your weapon also greatly matters. Whether you want the long range, piercing effect of the rifle or the sheer condition application of pistol/pistol. I’ve never, ever used the shield and I doubt I ever will. Remember, the rifle also automatically pierces targets, so you’ll tag a group of enemies if you position yourself correctly.

The engi is a finicky class but once you get used to it, you realize that it is one of the most versatile classes ever. Once you get about level 30 or so, things will become a lot easier.

Also, the 1% to damage per boon may suck initially, but if you’re running Elixirs, that’s an additional 4% damage whenever you pop Elixir B, and that lasts for 14 seconds. Team up with anyone who’s a boon factory and that’s easily 5-6% more damage for however long, plus Might. An engineer can get crazy just by might stacking alone.

Xhyros.1340:

Turrets are for pvp (rifle and healing work for pve though). Flamethrower auto sucks. It’s horrible. Don’t use it, ever. Grenades don’t do damage till level 60. Don’t autoattack with flamethrower. Bomb autos are strong if you like being all in your face, just make sure to use explosives III so they can hit. Stop using flamethrower autos, it may look cool, but it is not good for dealing damage. Rocket boots are like, awesome mobility. Make sure you have swiftness when using them for a further jump. I can tell you’re using flamethrower autos. What did I say about flamethrower autos?

But the cone of damage, fireforge trigger and getting Juggernaut at 20 in Firearms…+200 toughness…Just build condi damage and toughness…

VIVorcha.7853:

ellesee.8297:

you’re level 20 crying for buffs.
next thread.

You say the same thing when a level 80 asks for buffs.

Why are you on these forums if you have nothing to contribute to discussion?

Our traitlines DO suck.

-One of our MAJOR GRANDMASTER traits is a MINOR ADEPT TRAIT for Rangers. 50% faster endurance regen IS NOT GRANDMASTER MATERIAL.
-Infused Precision is the same as Furious Speed (Warrior), but triggers half as often and lasts half as long.

All of our Grandmasters are pretty bad, but there are also many other traits (like Scope) that are even more useless.

Not all of our Grandmasters are bad, I think the good ones outweigh the bad.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

It was a figurative example. Of course it does not on every mob in the game, but I am not wrong about drawing the comparison. I know you like the ft Phin, and more power to you. But you yourself even state in your guides that the ft is not a dps weapon right? At least not compared to other options available to the engineer.

That’s a bit more of a sweeping dismissal of the kit than I intended with my post.

My FT/EG build is designed around a balanced playstyle offering good DPS with good support through condition removal, area healing, and group boon stacking (Might and Fury primarily). But you could very easily swap out Altruism runes for Scholar runes and dish out over 3.5K direct damage a second with the FT/EG combo (2K from Flame Jet, 1.5K from Acid Bomb).

My post is more so a response to the claim that the Flamethrower’s auto-attack, Flame Jet, does “terrible” damage—something several users, including you, have claimed in this thread.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

No seriously FT AA is terrible for damage.

Xhyros.1340:

Flamethrower auto sucks. It’s horrible. Don’t use it, ever.

Do you really think my assertion of promoting a balanced setup with the FT/EG is even remotely close to the claim that Flame Jet is not worth using in any capacity or by definition does “terrible” damage?

ShadowPuppet.3746:

The general point (actual numbers aside because it is too late to start breaking out skill coefficients) is that the ft auto really does not perform a function that another setup could not do better.

People always say this, but I don’t see any builds posted that come close to the strength of the natural hybrid of an FT/EG Engineer.

You can pretend putting an Elixir Gun on your bar without Fireforged Trigger means you’re offering as strong support as my build does, or that you’re offering the same boons with zero points in Alchemy, but in reality: you’re not.

There are offsets to everything, and you cannot continually lambast the Flamethrower for its loss of 300 Power not speccing into Explosives while pretending at the same time that 20% Boon Duration or 20% cooldown reduction on Super Elixir doesn’t matter at all.

It’s selective reasoning/confirmation bias at its finest, which…

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Now listen I admit, my view is based entirely on doing as much damage as possible while still providing support through group might and vuln and clearing conditions through the eg if need be, but I don’t need to trait for the condi clear part to work.

…Is something you admit yourself, in more or less words. You found a build that works to the playstyle that you desire. And that’s great. I’m glad for you. Keep running what you think is the optimal setup for what you want out of your Engineer.

Just please stop insulting my build at the same time. Thanks.

I cringe at the thought of Turrets becoming the new ‘FOTM’, and seeing kits and elixirs nerfed into the ground.

That’ll be the day I retire my engineer.

Phineas Poe.3018:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

It was a figurative example. Of course it does not on every mob in the game, but I am not wrong about drawing the comparison. I know you like the ft Phin, and more power to you. But you yourself even state in your guides that the ft is not a dps weapon right? At least not compared to other options available to the engineer.

That’s a bit more of a sweeping dismissal of the kit than I intended with my post.

My FT/EG build is designed around a balanced playstyle offering good DPS with good support through condition removal, area healing, and group boon stacking (Might and Fury primarily). But you could very easily swap out Altruism runes for Scholar runes and dish out over 3.5K direct damage a second with the FT/EG combo (2K from Flame Jet, 1.5K from Acid Bomb).

My post is more so a response to the claim that the Flamethrower’s auto-attack, Flame Jet, does “terrible” damage—something several users, including you, have claimed in this thread.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

No seriously FT AA is terrible for damage.

Xhyros.1340:

Flamethrower auto sucks. It’s horrible. Don’t use it, ever.

Do you really think my assertion of promoting a balanced setup with the FT/EG is even remotely close to the claim that Flame Jet is not worth using in any capacity or by definition does “terrible” damage?

ShadowPuppet.3746:

The general point (actual numbers aside because it is too late to start breaking out skill coefficients) is that the ft auto really does not perform a function that another setup could not do better.

People always say this, but I don’t see any builds posted that come close to the strength of the natural hybrid of an FT/EG Engineer.

You can pretend putting an Elixir Gun on your bar without Fireforged Trigger means you’re offering as strong support as my build does, or that you’re offering the same boons with zero points in Alchemy, but in reality: you’re not.

There are offsets to everything, and you cannot continually lambast the Flamethrower for its loss of 300 Power not speccing into Explosives while pretending at the same time that 20% Boon Duration or 20% cooldown reduction on Super Elixir doesn’t matter at all.

It’s selective reasoning/confirmation bias at its finest, which…

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Now listen I admit, my view is based entirely on doing as much damage as possible while still providing support through group might and vuln and clearing conditions through the eg if need be, but I don’t need to trait for the condi clear part to work.

…Is something you admit yourself, in more or less words. You found a build that works to the playstyle that you desire. And that’s great. I’m glad for you. Keep running what you think is the optimal setup for what you want out of your Engineer.

Just please stop insulting my build at the same time. Thanks.

Phin, it is not an insult to your build. It is a criticism of the flamethrower auto attack in terms of doing damage. The skill coefficient of ft auto is 1.5 total for a 2.5 second channel, compare that to grenade kit at .33 per grenade, or bomb auto at 1.25 both on .5 second cast times. That means that even if it were to take 1 full second because of aftercast for each of those attacks, you can still get 2 full attacks off in the same amount of time. Your build works perfectly for what it is intended to do, but it is not competitive dps compared to our other kits or other classes, ft auto does not keep up. The qualifier for this is if you are concerned with doing as much damage as possible or not. Can you complete content in any build you want? Absolutely, heck you can run dungeons or do other content naked half the time if you know the encounter well enough. But in terms of doing damage, I will state it again FT auto is terrible full stop.

We’re way too dependent on kit switching. We need more traits like Juggernaut that reward the use of a single kit.

@OP: If you just used the birthday scroll to level up your toon to 20, and then realize the traits were missing… and after that, you don’t really understand those traits, maybe you should been reading/analizing that before jumping into the profession. The engy has not a straight forward playstyle by any means, so if you are interested in a easy to grasp, in your face, tanky feel and easy to level, in top of that… maybe you want to give a try a signet warrior: easy comes, easy goes.

If you don’t want to give up your engy by now, I suggest you go to the mists and get used to the profession mechanics and utilities, and the synergy between trait lines. Then, pick up your rifle, your bombkit and go to PVE to level like a boss. :P

Tip: The best 10 initial trait points for leveling imo, are those to get speedy kits, which makes you get perma swiftness.

Welcome to the board and enjoy!

The engineer profession is not weak, it’s just incredibly difficult to play. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that it is one of the strongest roamers in WvW while still offering a very competitive zerk dps option (bomb kit) for dungeons. The problem lies in that it is very difficult to accomplish these tasks.

Anything one class can do with one button press you are going to have to do with three. That’s just the design of the class, and is the reason why it can’t be buffed, or else it will just become a god mode profession for good players. If you don’t get it, and it doesn’t appeal to you, then I highly suggest playing another profession that you do enjoy, because I will warn you, a bad engineer is basically one of the most useless professions in the game, more so than any other player playing their respective profession poorly.

If you are a good player, and can master the engineer, then go for it. You will literally be at the wheel of the strongest profession in the game. If you can’t though, then I highly recommend one of the other seven professions.

Decklan.7540:

The engineer profession is not weak, it’s just incredibly difficult to play. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that it is one of the strongest roamers in WvW while still offering a very competitive zerk dps option (bomb kit) for dungeons. The problem lies in that it is very difficult to accomplish these tasks.

Anything one class can do with one button press you are going to have to do with three. That’s just the design of the class, and is the reason why it can’t be buffed, or else it will just become a god mode profession for good players. If you don’t get it, and it doesn’t appeal to you, then I highly suggest playing another profession that you do enjoy, because I will warn you, a bad engineer is basically one of the most useless professions in the game, more so than any other player playing their respective profession poorly.

If you are a good player, and can master the engineer, then go for it. You will literally be at the wheel of the strongest profession in the game. If you can’t though, then I highly recommend one of the other seven professions.

This.

Engineer is not an alt friendly class. You need to dedicate countless hours to learning it’s intricacies, and hours more to gain the experience to apply that knowledge in real time.

Don’t like +1% damage per boon? Try using Lyssa runes, slot Elixir X, and use Fast Acting Elixirs to get an 84 second cool down for a condition clear and every boon.

Don’t like that? Want more damage? Pick up a Rifle, throw 30 points in Firearms to take Sitting Duck, Rifle Mod, and Mod Ammunition. Use a Sigil of Force, and toss 10 points in the Explosives line to snag 5% more damage when endurance isn’t full. Drop a supply crate on your foe and proc that Lyssa rune to gain every boon and +9% damage more damage from Energy Conversion Matrix as you roll into Blunderbus to inflict bleeding to get 7% more damage against a bleeding target (5% grand master minor, +2% Mod Ammo). The net turret in supply crate will immobilize causing cripple and vulnerability from Sitting Duck granting +6% damage (Mod Ammo).

All in all thats:
+10% Rifle Mod
+5% Sigil of Force
+5% Empowering Adrenaline
+8% Mod Ammo
+5% Target the Maimed
+9% Energy Conversion Matrix

+42% direct damage total.

And I haven’t even gotten into what happens when you stack on more conditions or factored in damage increases for inflicting vulnerability and gaining might, nor mentioned that using ECM < Static Discharge as my fight opener easily exceeds 10k damage just with tool belt skills…3.5k of which bounces to multiple targets, and 5.5k of it hits everything in a straight line.

I can’t argue that there’s a lot of bugs and just flat out poor skills, I.E. turrets, that needed some serious work. Oh and that atrocity they call an Elite named “Mortar” is total dog $&#!…actually little worse since dog $&#! at least has the decency not to pretend it doesn’t stink. But the fact remains that unlike a few other class designs (ex: Thief) the Engineer class is only as good as you are at playing it, depending heavily on player knowledge, experience, and skill.

If you don’t like complex combos nor advanced theory crafting, then Engineer is not the class for you.

Decklan.7540:

The engineer profession is not weak, it’s just incredibly difficult to play. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that it is one of the strongest roamers in WvW while still offering a very competitive zerk dps option (bomb kit) for dungeons. The problem lies in that it is very difficult to accomplish these tasks.

Anything one class can do with one button press you are going to have to do with three. That’s just the design of the class, and is the reason why it can’t be buffed, or else it will just become a god mode profession for good players. If you don’t get it, and it doesn’t appeal to you, then I highly suggest playing another profession that you do enjoy, because I will warn you, a bad engineer is basically one of the most useless professions in the game, more so than any other player playing their respective profession poorly.

If you are a good player, and can master the engineer, then go for it. You will literally be at the wheel of the strongest profession in the game. If you can’t though, then I highly recommend one of the other seven professions.

I wonder if we could offset the “god mode” by having Kit Refinement or similar produce effects similar to Juggernaut for sitting in a kit for longer than it takes to pop off the spiky skills and move on.

Elementalists have something similar, but ANet may not have taken it far enough. Meaning that the effects gained are not powerful enough to be a worthwhile tradeoff for the constant switching. Also, they have a trait that make the effects linger. Something that counteracts the value of sitting there.

VIVorcha.7853:

We’re way too dependent on kit switching. We need more traits like Juggernaut that reward the use of a single kit.

Why would you want to encourage people to stay in a single kit more? I mean there is already incentive in the way builds are made that you will favor certain kits over others but I don’t understand why anyone would want to sit in one kit. I can make assumptions to why, but I would rather not do that.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

VIVorcha.7853:

We’re way too dependent on kit switching. We need more traits like Juggernaut that reward the use of a single kit.

Why would you want to encourage people to stay in a single kit more? I mean there is already incentive in the way builds are made that you will favor certain kits over others but I don’t understand why anyone would want to sit in one kit. I can make assumptions to why, but I would rather not do that.

Perhaps so you don’t feel like you’re gimping yourself by picking a gadget or elixir over a second or third kit?

digiowl.9620:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

VIVorcha.7853:

We’re way too dependent on kit switching. We need more traits like Juggernaut that reward the use of a single kit.

Why would you want to encourage people to stay in a single kit more? I mean there is already incentive in the way builds are made that you will favor certain kits over others but I don’t understand why anyone would want to sit in one kit. I can make assumptions to why, but I would rather not do that.

Perhaps so you don’t feel like you’re gimping yourself by picking a gadget or elixir over a second or third kit?

In most cases you would still be “gimping” yourself by reducing the amount of variety of skills you have available to you. Buffing staying in one kit won’t ever fix that problem, and some cases would make the other kits far too strong depending on what incentive they provide.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

digiowl.9620:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

VIVorcha.7853:

We’re way too dependent on kit switching. We need more traits like Juggernaut that reward the use of a single kit.

Why would you want to encourage people to stay in a single kit more? I mean there is already incentive in the way builds are made that you will favor certain kits over others but I don’t understand why anyone would want to sit in one kit. I can make assumptions to why, but I would rather not do that.

Perhaps so you don’t feel like you’re gimping yourself by picking a gadget or elixir over a second or third kit?

In most cases you would still be “gimping” yourself by reducing the amount of variety of skills you have available to you. Buffing staying in one kit won’t ever fix that problem, and some cases would make the other kits far too strong depending on what incentive they provide.

What about making the main weapons more meaningful that would provide a substantial alternative to remaining in kits the majority of time?

Deacon.9725:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

digiowl.9620:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

VIVorcha.7853:

We’re way too dependent on kit switching. We need more traits like Juggernaut that reward the use of a single kit.

Why would you want to encourage people to stay in a single kit more? I mean there is already incentive in the way builds are made that you will favor certain kits over others but I don’t understand why anyone would want to sit in one kit. I can make assumptions to why, but I would rather not do that.

Perhaps so you don’t feel like you’re gimping yourself by picking a gadget or elixir over a second or third kit?

In most cases you would still be “gimping” yourself by reducing the amount of variety of skills you have available to you. Buffing staying in one kit won’t ever fix that problem, and some cases would make the other kits far too strong depending on what incentive they provide.

What about making the main weapons more meaningful that would provide a substantial alternative to remaining in kits the majority of time?

Basically if I am understanding correctly the argument is that people want alternatives to having to be so active with their kit management. I will say this and someone will probably jump on me for it but understand I mean no malice, but why play a engineer then? What I mean is, if someone wants to basically limit themselves to using two weapon skill bars, why not play another class that is already strong in such a scenario? Part of what makes the engineer strong is the ability to have a large range of skills available to them, it’s fairly evident if you look at the traits that gadgets are meant to be supplemental and not have a build based on them. Turrets have trait support (although turrets are a mess), elixirs have trait support, kits have trait support…gadgets have one cd reduction trait

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Deacon.9725:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

digiowl.9620:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

VIVorcha.7853:

We’re way too dependent on kit switching. We need more traits like Juggernaut that reward the use of a single kit.

Why would you want to encourage people to stay in a single kit more? I mean there is already incentive in the way builds are made that you will favor certain kits over others but I don’t understand why anyone would want to sit in one kit. I can make assumptions to why, but I would rather not do that.

Perhaps so you don’t feel like you’re gimping yourself by picking a gadget or elixir over a second or third kit?

In most cases you would still be “gimping” yourself by reducing the amount of variety of skills you have available to you. Buffing staying in one kit won’t ever fix that problem, and some cases would make the other kits far too strong depending on what incentive they provide.

What about making the main weapons more meaningful that would provide a substantial alternative to remaining in kits the majority of time?

Basically if I am understanding correctly the argument is that people want alternatives to having to be so active with their kit management. I will say this and someone will probably jump on me for it but understand I mean no malice, but why play a engineer then? What I mean is, if someone wants to basically limit themselves to using two weapon skill bars, why not play another class that is already strong in such a scenario? Part of what makes the engineer strong is the ability to have a large range of skills available to them, it’s fairly evident if you look at the traits that gadgets are meant to be supplemental and not have a build based on them. Turrets have trait support (although turrets are a mess), elixirs have trait support, kits have trait support…gadgets have one cd reduction trait

I agree with you that kits are the primary mechanic of the class. However, I see them also as something distinct from the Elementalist attunement state. By this, I mean that kits are situational skill-sets rather than innate overlays onto everything we do. Otherwise, why have slotted weapons at all?

Now personally I view my p/p or p/s setup as its own kit and try to fit a playstyle accordingly. However, this leaves a bit to be desired on the variety of options there. Maybe I’m asking for a bit more flexibility and creativity in our Firearms trait line. Right now, I feel like the options for main weapon playstyle are “increase dps.” This isn’t to say that main weapons should be replacements for kits (no more than saying that sitting in a single kit should be meaningful either a la previous posts).

indeed. What i am looking for is a middle group between no kits and spinning through the kits constantly to maximize DPS.

Then again, i also run a melee set and a ranged set on my other characters. Meaning i prefer situational flexibility over maximized DPS. So that if things becomes too intense in melee i can drop back to a ranged set and keep fighting while gaining some distance.

Juggernaut is interesting in this sense as it benefits me to have flamethrower active as much as possible rather than one second being in flamethrower for one skill, the next in another kit for another skill, the next in weapons and so on. I can understand that ANet wanted that play style as a valid one, but i am not sure if they wanted it to be the only one that seemingly mattered when it came to kit usage.

digiowl.9620:

indeed. What i am looking for is a middle group between no kits and spinning through the kits constantly to maximize DPS.

Then again, i also run a melee set and a ranged set on my other characters. Meaning i prefer situational flexibility over maximized DPS. So that if things becomes too intense in melee i can drop back to a ranged set and keep fighting while gaining some distance.

Juggernaut is interesting in this sense as it benefits me to have flamethrower active as much as possible rather than one second being in flamethrower for one skill, the next in another kit for another skill, the next in weapons and so on. I can understand that ANet wanted that play style as a valid one, but i am not sure if they wanted it to be the only one that seemingly mattered when it came to kit usage.

Well, I for one, do not mind spinning through the range of options. I simply want the main weaponset options to have some more flexibility in build-out options that we have for kits, and can become a more meaningful part of a flurried swap-out for skills.

I would like main weapons to be more powerful as well. I enjoy managing kits and maximizing my effectiveness by switching through them as needed, but I also really enjoy pistol and shield skills and I would like an option to use those and still be just as effective without any kits to do the heavy lifting.

Maybe a trait that buffs you somehow when no kits are being used, just something that offers another option.

Deacon.9725:

I agree with you that kits are the primary mechanic of the class.

Except of course that they’re not. If they were they would be like the other profession mechanics and either A; occupy the F-bar, or B; work as some form of passive effect of our weapon skills (see: mesmer illusions), or finally C; act as an overall passive effect or gauge (see: thief initiative and guardian passive virtues). The simple fact is that the way the game is designed you can’t go into combat without your “primary mechanic,” yet engineers are fully able to enter combat without a single kit on your skill bar. Likewise all other profession mechanics are available in some fashion from level one, providing an opportunity to learn how said mechanic works. Oh, and let’s not forget that every profession’s final trait line has a passive statistical buff specifically relating to said mechanic such as the guardian’s Virtues trait line buffing Virtue recharge rate, the ranger’s Beastmastery buffing pet attributes, the mesmer’s Illusions line reducing the recharge of Shatter skills, and the warrior’s Discipline reducing the recharge of Burst skills.

So let’s review…

Do engineer kits occupy the F-bar? No.

Are engineer kits an aspect of weapon skills? No.

Are engineer kits some form of passive effect? No.

Are engineer kits available right from level one? No.

Are engineer kits an “always-on” or otherwise always-available aspect of the profession regardless of build? No.

Does the engineer’s fifth trait line, Tools, provide a passive statistical buff to kits? No.

In summation; engineer kits are not our primary profession mechanic, the Tool Belt is. This is an objective fact regardless of how much people may want to say otherwise. The only reason we are so dependent on them is poor balance and profession design, making an optional utility skill type so vastly superior to our actual profession mechanic (something undeniably underwhelming) as well as all other utility skill types and our baseline weapon skills that feel compelled to use them in much the same way as other professions are designed to use their profession mechanic.

Anymras and I speculated during my failed protest rally that at some point early in development kits were supposed to be our primary mechanic, just as the engineer was originally supposed to be a heavy armor class. But things changed, and apparently too late for all of our skills and traits to be adequately reworked to suit our new design. This pretty much explains everything wrong with the way our traits and skills work, and the way they seem to have been meant to be used. We speculated that kits were reworked as utility because of the similarity F-bar kit swapping would have to elementalist attunement swapping, but even if that is not the case I believe that we were on the right track, and pretty close with our speculation. Either way, taking into account the above it is pretty clear that kits are not our primary mechanic and our compulsion to use them and dependency on them is the product of poor profession design.

Uh… my Engineer feels much more meaty than my Mesmer, oddly enough. :S

Sadly I feel like I should repost here what I posted in Arkham’s new thread, as it directly contributes to the thought progression I was going for in this thread:

Perhaps my verbage is what struck a chord, as “mechanic” seems to be taken literally. Rather, I would re-suggest that kits are still a core functionality of Engineers. This seems to be something that is not directly translatable to all other professions, however I would posit that it is akin to the idea that clones/phantasms are a core functionality of Mesmers (even though it seems that using Arkham’s literal semantics-baed logic, that Shattering is the core mechanic and that clones/phantasms are merely utilities?).

The point here is that Engineers are seen both inside and outside the playing community as a thoroughly unique profession. In that vein, we cannot do apples-to-apples comparisons on weapon-to-utility-to-F# skills. It is incorrect to relegate kits as something that acts as “just another utility skill” ala other professions. Quite simply, the way that kits work belies that comparison: kits function as the response to other professions’ weapon-swaps. Therefore, not discussing kits interaction with each other and the main weapon-set as a core function of how the profession plays would be similar to Elementalists talking about just sitting in one attunement, or how other professions deal with weapon swaps.

What I was trying to tease out in this thread is the ability to see a bit more synergy between weaponsets and kits. Considering that we are expected to have a high degree of contextual/situational awareness in our profession, I would love to see some more cross-love between kits and weaponsets.

And I thought this is a question thread from a frustrated guardian main who is facing some issues with her levelling engineer… You know guardians, the class where you run all zerker gear, grab every DPS traits available, and you are still tankier than most other classes (at least I am on my 80 guardian).

Agreed, Henry. And I was trying to get to one of the issues with a frustration of leveling an engineer: how can I get more playstyle options out of my equipped weaponset?

Considering that the Engineer is so much harder to play, it should be noticeably more powerful than other professions. I’m not getting that.

Mesmers are that way. A good Mesmer is properly rewarded by roflstomping entire parties.

VIVorcha.7853:

Mesmers are that way. A good Mesmer is properly rewarded by roflstomping entire parties.

This bring tears to my eyes..

VIVorcha.7853:

Considering that the Engineer is so much harder to play, it should be noticeably more powerful than other professions. I’m not getting that.

Mesmers are that way. A good Mesmer is properly rewarded by roflstomping entire parties.

It was a cold and blistery day, as we setup camp when I noticed upon the ridge what at first appearance could only be described as a man with intent in his eyes. That man lunged into our group bereft of consideration for his own safety, it seemed he was everywhere and nowhere at the same time. Shouts and cries of my comrades filled the air as they were stricken down one by one and for every one there were three more. Some shouted “He moves in unnatural ways”, others shouted “there are three of them!” but I quickly recognized the vile chaos that was being visited upon us. I ran quickly for the nearest cover since obviously there was no stopping this demon even with far superior numbers, better to run and live to fight another day! I watched the horror being visited upon the brave men from my sanctuary, they never had a chance…for they were against no ordinary man, but a mesmer!

VIVorcha.7853:

Considering that the Engineer is so much harder to play, it should be noticeably more powerful than other professions. I’m not getting that.

Mesmers are that way. A good Mesmer is properly rewarded by roflstomping entire parties.

And a good engineer can do the same, it’s just far more difficult to execute.

Here’s a perfect example. A poor ranger can apply excellent group support by pressing one button, Healing Spring. It’s a large waterfield, and it’s fire and forget. They can then easily blast finish said healing spring with the press of warhorn 5 while simultaneously granting swiftness/fury/might to their allies. That’s two button presses.

Now, let’s see how many button presses and cooldown management that takes for an engineer. First they have to drop their Healing Turret. One button press. Then they have to overcharge their healing turret. Two button presses. Then they have to wait a few seconds and time it correctly before detonating their healing turret as the water field does not appear instantly on overcharge. Three button presses. So, already you are adding one more action to a combo that a ranger can pull off with two.

Now, let’s see how easy it is for the engineer to screw this combo up. One, they could accidentally detonate the turret before the water field appears. Their finger could slip and they could “interact” with the healing turret before detonating it, causing it to despawn. The turret could be insta-gibbed in an enemy aoe chain. If they do manage to detonate it correctly, then the water field is gone, whereas the rangers immune Healing Spring is invunerable and lasts for another 15 seconds. This is why a bad engineer is seen kitten ineffectual and why a lot of people complain about the class. What’s even crazier is this is probably the simplest situation in where an engineer can screw up.

The point is, is that when an engineer makes a mistake they are punished SEVERELY, whereas other professions have a wider margin for error.

This is not a problem though as let’s take a look at what a well played engineer can do in comparison to the ranger.

When the ranger drops his water field and blast finishes it with warhorn, that’s it, they are out moves. A good engineer however has far more options.

Let’s take a look at what a good engineer can do with his healing turret water field.

They can drop their healing turret, overcharge it, then SWAP to elixir gun and acid bomb out granting one blast finisher. They can then utilize rocket books to jump right back in and apply ANOTHER blast finisher. They can then switch back to pistol/shield and use shield 4 for a THIRD blast finisher. To top it all off they can then detonate the turret for a FOURTH blast finisher. This is above and beyond far more powerful than what the ranger player just accomplished with healing spring and warhorn, but the catch is that it’s also FAR more difficult to accomplish.

This is also why most people would rather run with a poorly played ranger than a poorly played engineer. A poorly played engineer will not completely understand the intricacies of the class and if they make a mistake during any of their extremely precise rotations then they might as well just be free food for the enemy.

You are not going to be able to stack might as easily as a warrior, but if you master a blast rotation you can stack just as much might, if not more, to the entire team. You are not going to be easily granting the entire team regen/swiftness like a ranger can with “Guard” and “Nature’s Voice” but if you equip the proper runes and master the correct rotation, you can grant a lot more team wide boons it’s just harder to pull off.

This is the main reason people complain about this class. It is extremely difficult and not very intuitive.

Should it receive buffs? In it’s current state no. Could it receive more quality of life changes? Absolutely, but those would come at a great cost and severely effect the engineers versatility.

In my opinion, a buff to turrets would go a long way in opening up a simpler and effective play style for the engineer.

For example, if their was a grandmaster trait that made turrets mobile and more powerful BUT removed their ability to be detonated, then you would have a strong option for players who want a simpler play style while simultaneously preventing good engineers easy access to a mobile blast finisher. Good engineers will still stick with two/three kit and avoid turrets, as removing their detonate would be horrible to them, while bad/average engineers could still be effective on the battlefield.

Decklan.7540:

The engineer profession is not weak, it’s just incredibly difficult to play. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that it is one of the strongest roamers in WvW while still offering a very competitive zerk dps option (bomb kit) for dungeons. The problem lies in that it is very difficult to accomplish these tasks.

Anything one class can do with one button press you are going to have to do with three. That’s just the design of the class, and is the reason why it can’t be buffed, or else it will just become a god mode profession for good players. If you don’t get it, and it doesn’t appeal to you, then I highly suggest playing another profession that you do enjoy, because I will warn you, a bad engineer is basically one of the most useless professions in the game, more so than any other player playing their respective profession poorly.

If you are a good player, and can master the engineer, then go for it. You will literally be at the wheel of the strongest profession in the game. If you can’t though, then I highly recommend one of the other seven professions.

Very much so. For example, we can have 10 sec of stealth (possibly more though I’ve yet to get higher than that). However, this requires a rather complex skill rotation performed in less than 5 sec, whereas a thief can stealth with just one skill. The same applies with Healing Turret (as has been stated above).\
When I started playing engineer back in Nov. 2012, I knew nothing about how the class worked, what traits even were, etc. In the past 3-4 months though, I have begun to understand these things, and though I know so little in comparison to Phineas, Koroshi, and these other good engineer players, I apparently know enough to give thieves (for example) a bad time, as a number of thieves have complained about my use of Supply Crate, etc.
This is a fun class, and I hope OP has the experience of using Prybar, or flaming Risen mobs in Orr with Flamethrower, etc. Engineer is what you make of it.

Decklan.7540:

If they do manage to detonate it correctly, then the water field is gone, whereas the rangers immune Healing Spring is invunerable and lasts for another 15 seconds.

While I don’t necessarily disagree with anything you’ve said, I just want to clear this up. When Cleansing Burst activates (near instantly after dropping the turret if you press it fast enough), the water field is up for the full duration of 3? seconds whether the turret is there or not. I almost always detonate my Healing Turret first just because it’s easiest in the way my keys are bound, and I want it to go on cooldown first, then I lay down my other blast finishers in rapid succession.

Honestly every time I see one of these threads on any class I play I think the same thing. If you are not 80 yet there is no need to comment. PvE content can be done by any class once your geared. It is not more complex than that. I usually won’t comment on a class and its balance til I am 100 hours in on it. You literally need to have played a class for a good while before you know what is right and wrong about it.

When it comes to Engineer i feel as though 100 is a slap in the face , i’d say around 500ish-1k

To be honest Engineer really isn’t that hard to pick up and level, even with Flamethrower. In fact I recommend that everyone level with Engineer because it actually teaches you mechanics: Skillshots, dodging, spacing, timing cooldowns, getting your rotations and combos down, animation cancelling. Even theorycrafting for Engineer is deeper than any other class because a single utility can change your playstyle – your traiting is then predicated on what kit or weapon you want to boost.

The class is literally a tutorial for nearly all aspects of the game except for Z-Axis teleports (we don’t have any). And for that, you have Thief or Mesmer. I’m surprised by my friends always falling down first in dungeons and WvW when I’m usually the one tanking the damage (I only build 1300 of each of Toughness and Vitality).

I would go so far as to say that Engineer is almost the best designed in the game as well, aside from those RNG traits that were obviously put in at the last minute. Lots of skillshots, lots of manual timing and aiming of abilities. Really, the only time you can truly automate your damage is when you’re running Turrets, and even then, you’re scrambling to keep them alive, time their Overcharges, deciding whether to detonate or pick up. The class is so manual and so active it’s great. The only other class that is as manual is probably Warrior, but recent changes have lowered its skill floor massively (having the best armour and HP in the game didn’t hurt either).

Really the only thing that is problematic for Engineers is actually the automated stuff. Turrets, Flamethrower 1 (I refuse to slot it, I have to detarget to hit anything with it; but then I can’t see their HP or condis or boons) all have their problems that have been enumerated time and time again.

With regards to the OP, my only advice is; use more skillshots. All of them. All the time.

Xhyros.1340:

Turrets are for pvp (rifle and healing work for pve though). Flamethrower auto sucks. It’s horrible. Don’t use it, ever. Grenades don’t do damage till level 60. Don’t autoattack with flamethrower. Bomb autos are strong if you like being all in your face, just make sure to use explosives III so they can hit. Stop using flamethrower autos, it may look cool, but it is not good for dealing damage. Rocket boots are like, awesome mobility. Make sure you have swiftness when using them for a further jump. I can tell you’re using flamethrower autos. What did I say about flamethrower autos?

I don’t know. I stopped listening after you said its auto sucked. Flamethrower Auto is godly, if you use it right. You probably aren’t.

I run my main as a Flamegineer with turrets in PVE. The problem here is too many people trying to square peg when the hole is round. It’s a total L2P issue. Turrets don’t target bosses. But then as a Flamegineer, I’m not targeting the boss, either. Why? Flamethrower is a condition build. You light things up and keep them lit until they die. This just in: Fire still hot! Burn it up! But you only need one fire source on a boss, and none if it’s immune to Burning. Know your place and your targets.

Boss encounters, like Teq the Funless, are group efforts. Not everyone should be focused on the boss. In fact, in any boss encounter, if it has been properly constructed, you only need about half the people on the boss, and the rest need to be working mop-up of the adds. That’s where a full 90 degree front cone AOE is awesome. If they can work on the stupidity of the “MISS! MISS! MISS!” problem when moving, we’re in business. Otherwise, just stand in one place and rotate. Damage stacks fast. Burning does the rest. Burn down adds quickly and keep them off the guys killing the boss.

A note on turrets: They are great, if you can keep the mobs from destroying them. It isn’t hard. My turrets have stood for an entire Teq encounter, which is impressive, since most of the players didn’t. I put them down, move away from them so I don’t bring AOE down on them, and let them do their thing. A healing turret overlapping two of the cannons, and if the idiots manning the cannons are even half awake, they should be standing in the effect to get the heal. The rest is just aggro management, which is hard, but with so many people out there, it can be done.

Support builds and classes, like the Engineer, need to know where they are best. Engineers, Guardians, Necros, etc, all belong on the adds, not the boss. Thieves, Warriors, Mesmers, Elementalists… They fight the boss directly.

Understand your class and you’ll do a lot more good in a boss battle than you are now.

Drakkon.4782:

Flamethrower is a condition build.

/headdesk

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Phin, it is not an insult to your build. It is a criticism of the flamethrower auto attack in terms of doing damage. The skill coefficient of ft auto is 1.5 total for a 2.5 second channel, compare that to grenade kit at .33 per grenade, or bomb auto at 1.25 both on .5 second cast times. That means that even if it were to take 1 full second because of aftercast for each of those attacks, you can still get 2 full attacks off in the same amount of time.

I don’t think you can look at skill coefficients alone. There’s a lot of stuff that goes into the damage equation, including +% damage traits, Bleeding, Burning, and Vulnerability.

But really, what is the benefit of comparing auto-attacks? Obviously the Bomb Kit’s is superior—it’s the only real damage the kit has. Fire Bomb and Concussion Bomb deal almost zilch direct damage. Heck, Smoke Bomb and Glue Bomb actually deal no damage at all.

Dealing damage as a Bombineer is essentially spamming your auto-attack, using Big Ol’ Bomb when it’s available for a Blast finisher in Fire Bomb, and dropping Glue Bomb to proc Sitting Duck.

Compare that to the Flamethrower, which utilizes Flame Blast as its primary damage. Obviously looking at just auto-attacks and their skill coefficients will give an unfair tilt to the Bomb Kit.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Your build works perfectly for what it is intended to do, but it is not competitive dps compared to our other kits or other classes, ft auto does not keep up.

Well thanks but the end result of my build is not doing “terrible” damage simply to help others. There is a minor offset in damage lost when taking into consideration the philosophy behind the build, but you could very easily put on Berserker/Scholar runes—as I often do depending on the dungeon and group composition—and dish out more than respectable DPS.

I don’t disagree with your assertion that the Bomb Kit is overall better. I’m just so tired of this absurd rhetoric that the Flamethrower is by definition “terrible” as a DPS option because it doesn’t deal 4K+ DPS a second. If you actually sat down and objectively looked at most classes, the reality of the situation is that the FT/EG build sits nicely in the middle of the pack and not at the bottom as many would suggest.

TheOneNOnlyGeneralBama.9586:

VIVorcha.7853:

Mesmers are that way. A good Mesmer is properly rewarded by roflstomping entire parties.

This bring tears to my eyes..

’tis a sight to behold.

VIVorcha.7853:

TheOneNOnlyGeneralBama.9586:

VIVorcha.7853:

Mesmers are that way. A good Mesmer is properly rewarded by roflstomping entire parties.

This bring tears to my eyes..

’tis a sight to behold.

Engi + Mes duo.

Yes, it’s a thing. Imagine