Engineers are like Robin...
Paragon was one of my favourite classes in GW1, I’m glad they brought it back.
We’re like improvised hard mode, want a challenge? Take more engineers in the party!
Maybe that’s our new role.
Totally agree. OP gets it.
Regarding what the class should become, because Grenades and Bombs are half way there anyway, Engineers should be the big risk / big reward class: they could very well miss, but if they hit, BOOM!
I think this is true to real life engineers anyway. The US Army Corps of Engineers has a lot of grand successes and phenomenal failures.
Stinky Garbage, Engineer. Meatbag, Guardian. Dum Dums, Elementalist.
(edited by Destroyer.1306)
Totally agree. OP gets it.
Regarding what the class should become, because Grenades are half way there anyway, Engineers should be the big risk / big reward class: they could very well miss, but if they hit, BOOM!
I think this is true to real life engineers anyway. The US Army Corps of Engineers has a lot of grand successes and phenomenal failures.
Real engineers worth the title don’t cause catastophic failures, they cause situations in which their redundancy measures kick in. Upper management typically leads to catastrophy by completely dismissing engineer concerns and/or not allowing said redundancy.
Real-life engineers by and large are not in their profession because they’re experimental scientists, but rather practical implementators of physical law. They know how things are supposed to work and try to make them work in the ways they want, but random results are never an intended outcome of any engineering project anywhere (though in retrospect this might be more a criticism for RNG than anything else).
You’re using the word “real” when you should be using the word “ideal.”
Just off the first Google page…
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/a/army_corps_of_engineers/index.html
http://www.downsizinggovernment.org/usace#4
http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-news/army-corps-acknowledges-may-flood-communication-failures
Stinky Garbage, Engineer. Meatbag, Guardian. Dum Dums, Elementalist.
I feel like this class was the hardest nerf this patch, i can’t believe this is the only class that still has to suffer a stat decrease when switching weapon in our case being kits. Speaking strictly as a wvw player I would rather have this kits turn into weapon n being limited to two sets and keep all stats bonus. I hate losing almost 400 attack when I switch to any kits. First we have to use our utility slot to equip what other class have free as a weapon switch mechanic and now that we can finally use sigils we get 30% damage reduction on grenades.
Real engineers worth the title don’t cause catastophic failures, they cause situations in which their redundancy measures kick in. Upper management typically leads to catastrophy by completely dismissing engineer concerns and/or not allowing said redundancy.
Man I gotta find more real engineers to work with in the software world. Silicon Valley is full of folks who love to live life on the edge of technical competence (“Would. You. Please. Just. Aggregate. Logging,” I say through clenched teeth, a vein in my forehead throbbing.) Small-scale engineering is about dedication. Large-scale engineering is about pessimism.
But I think one of the biggest thematic letdowns for me with Engineers is how there is nothing of “engineering” in them. I was hoping for a hopelessly fiddly class where a near infinite and absurd amount of customization was possible. Like point allocation into turret stats and stuff. Didn’t get it. I hoped for some idea of like customizing equipment. Didn’t get it. I hoped for some idea of repairing siege gear. You can repair turrets but it’s sort of foolish to do so, so I didn’t get it.
There’s no trace of the Maker Culture in engineers except some vague steampunk overtones, and even those are sort of underplayed. And I sort of could deal with that, because the kit play allowed you to have styles. But then I’m told a high-difficult high-apm class is deliberately underpowered for versatility, and the promised features in the future will hurt versatility by increasing the importance of itemization. Bummer
Oh well, Elementalist has been really fun to level, as has Mesmer and Thief.
But I think one of the biggest thematic letdowns for me with Engineers is how there is nothing of “engineering” in them. I was hoping for a hopelessly fiddly class where a near infinite and absurd amount of customization was possible. Like point allocation into turret stats and stuff. Didn’t get it. I hoped for some idea of like customizing equipment. Didn’t get it.
Now that is a damn fine idea – I wonder if it’ll maybe be possible to convince the devs to make Engineer the Customize Everything class? I’m not even being sarcastic, I love the idea of being able to switch which barrels/ammunition/armor/powersupply/everything my turrets use, just because it would make me feel like an Engineer.
Now that you mention it, though, I find myself wondering how much farther that could be applied – most of the other classes don’t really have a lot of explanation for reasons their character did things in ways that others did not, or a lack of a place to shine. The Engineer’s one ‘unique’ mechanic is really just a reskinned Elementalist gimmick – so why not give them another one?
An Engineery one. One that involves customizing things to maximize the desired effects, minimize the others, and generally squeeze every little drop of potential out like blood from a stone.
How I can kinda see that working: Introduce a new value for Engineers, gained at the same rate as Trait points – one per level, starting at level 11 (or, you know, one every other level, if this turns out to seem too unbalancing. It’s six-forty in the morning, I’m tired and just running with this idea before it chokes and dies). I’ll call this hypothetical value “Engineer Points,” because I just don’t feel like being clever about naming things, okay? Okay.
You’d use Engineer Points to buy Upgrades for your different skill types – Gadgets, Turrets, Kits and Elixirs, probably most easily imagined as basically having a secondary set of Traits. Points in each traitline would improve the effects of that particular type of skill, without affecting the Engineer themselves – just their skills. At each 5 points, choose a trait that affects a particular kit/turret/gadget/elixir in a particular way, with the traits otherwise acting like they do usually (Grandmaster traits can be used to use Master traits can be used to use Adept traits, except now it involves six nodes instead of three).
For example: Turrets would have Cooldown Reduction and Turret Vitality as the stats they increased, Elixirs would have Area of Effect and Chance of Concurrency (chance of giving more than one boon at a time when thrown, and spread effects of elixirs drunk onto nearby allies in accordance with AoE), Kits would have…uh…I have no idea what kits could really use, same with Gadgets.
I’m gonna arbitrarily decide that the 5-point trait for the Turret line is Ammunition, in this particular case, just to be clear:
Now let’s say, going by this system, I put five points into Turrets, and decide my Rifle Turret needs to cause a different Condition than Bleed – so I trait it to deal Poison instead. Or I decide to change Net Turret into a Bleed+Cripple instead of an Immobilize by giving it a Razorwire Net or something.
How stupid is that thing I just said? If by some miracle it turns out to not be stupid, I’ll try cleaning it up and posting it to the Suggestions forum.
(edited by Anymras.5729)
Actually it sounds quite similar to WoW’s pet talent system for the Hunter class. So not stupid at all. That being said, speaking from a purely personal point of view, I’d much rather they fixed the profession’s basic state before they start adding additional mechanics to it.
Glad to be [Grey] – http://thegrey.enjin.com/home
Piken Square
Piken Square
Yeah, me too. Too difficult to tell if things actually need rebalancing or if they just need to fix the bugs until they do. As it stands, though, that’d be a way to increase the Engineer-y feel of the Engineer.
Kinda wish they’d let us wear Heavy armor, too, like they originally meant to.
Agree with the op 100%. I’m sure most people don’t want to play “Robin”. But considering any time we get a build that comes remotely close to being able to pull off something other classes do by rolling their face over the key board, said build gets nerfed (and btw, this isn’t just about grenades, but juggernaut, mine field, p/p condition damage, smoke bomb, and a host of other things like having only 1 elite) its just not worth it anymore.
Personally, I’m re-rolling a mesmer. I’ll still use my engineer to bunker in spvp, and tankcat/static discharge in wvw, but honestly odds are bunker and tank cat will be “rebalanced” with the upcoming survivability changes mentioned in the logs, so yeah….
Am I the only one here who thinks Robin is kind of awesome?
I mean… Grayson is trained by Batman, becomes a Teen Titan, becomes Nightwing, joins JLA… Has no issue getting just about any woman.
Jason Todd? Survives being beaten with a crowbar (TANKCAT will respect this), and winds up a gun-toting vigilante.
Tim Drake: Rises from a tragic beginning to become Red Robin (Yum!), and manages to foil a convoluted plot from the League of Assassins, earning him the respect of Ras Al Ghul (no small feat). Then helps make Batman Incorporated.
So yeah… Robin doesn’t seem so bad right now. Robin’s always been sort of a transitory phase. Something with great potential, trained by the best, eventually becoming something great. Maybe being Robin is just what Engineer needs right now: to learn, grow, and realize it’s full potential. All that will take is time and patience.
I was also thinking of the Robin to Nightwing evolution. I just started playing GW2 and my engineer is only level 3. I admit, I rolled it for the steampunk feel of the character, and to do something different from swinging swords or casting spells. I am enjoying it and realize I have a long way to go before worrying about end game issues. Maybe they’ll be balanced by then.
Cheers.
This thread made me think of Robin from the latest youtube “Epic Rap Battles of History – Batman vs Sherlock Holmes”.
I’ll have that in my head every time I log into my character.
I can’t respect Tim Drake as the only reason he survived his murder was because Superboy Prime punched reality. It seriously doesn’t matter what they do with Drake, or even if they rebooted the universe, but I simply can’t get past that.
I kind of see engineers more as Spoiler, contanstly trying unorthodox plans in efforts of proving ourselves as valid as our predecessors (ie, the other classes), but eventually getting scolded and then fired (ie. nerfed) for not playing by the mentor’s rules. Then many of us fake our death (ie. quit playing engineers) until the class is fixed at a later date, at which point we will all come back and take on the role of Batgirl (because we feel pretty).
(edited by LegoTechnic.5910)
You’re just jealous of my green short shorts.
That’s the thing. There are several Robins, each with their own unique and different way of growing up. Everyone who plays Engineer will have to pick their own path. Some will choose to stick with it, though even darkest times, like Tim Drake. Some will work with what they got and keep doing more and more great things, like Dick Grayson. Some will fall out of grace and antagonize the other Engineers, like Jason Todd. Some might quit and come back later, like Batgirl.
And still others might be a belligerent jerk, but still work to make the state of Engineer better… Like Damian!
In short, we ARE Robin. But that’s okay, because we’re free to choose our own futures. And if things get too messed up, we’ll just have Superboy (Warriors) go punch reality for us and see what happens. Experimentation! Excelsior!
I can’t respect Tim Drake as the only reason he survived his murder was because Superboy Prime punched reality. It seriously doesn’t matter what they do with Drake, or even if they rebooted the universe, but I simply can’t get past that.
That reality punch covered up more plot holes than that though.
I kinda liked the idea from “Under the Red Hood” where Ras used the Lazarus pits to resurrect Jason because he felt guilty for being involved in getting Jason killed.
(edited by Wasdclick.1764)
But I think one of the biggest thematic letdowns for me with Engineers is how there is nothing of “engineering” in them. I was hoping for a hopelessly fiddly class where a near infinite and absurd amount of customization was possible. Like point allocation into turret stats and stuff. Didn’t get it. I hoped for some idea of like customizing equipment. Didn’t get it.
Now that is a damn fine idea – I wonder if it’ll maybe be possible to convince the devs to make Engineer the Customize Everything class? I’m not even being sarcastic, I love the idea of being able to switch which barrels/ammunition/armor/powersupply/everything my turrets use, just because it would make me feel like an Engineer.
Now that you mention it, though, I find myself wondering how much farther that could be applied – most of the other classes don’t really have a lot of explanation for reasons their character did things in ways that others did not, or a lack of a place to shine. The Engineer’s one ‘unique’ mechanic is really just a reskinned Elementalist gimmick – so why not give them another one?
An Engineery one. One that involves customizing things to maximize the desired effects, minimize the others, and generally squeeze every little drop of potential out like blood from a stone.
How I can kinda see that working: Introduce a new value for Engineers, gained at the same rate as Trait points – one per level, starting at level 11 (or, you know, one every other level, if this turns out to seem too unbalancing. It’s six-forty in the morning, I’m tired and just running with this idea before it chokes and dies). I’ll call this hypothetical value “Engineer Points,” because I just don’t feel like being clever about naming things, okay? Okay.
You’d use Engineer Points to buy Upgrades for your different skill types – Gadgets, Turrets, Kits and Elixirs, probably most easily imagined as basically having a secondary set of Traits. Points in each traitline would improve the effects of that particular type of skill, without affecting the Engineer themselves – just their skills. At each 5 points, choose a trait that affects a particular kit/turret/gadget/elixir in a particular way, with the traits otherwise acting like they do usually (Grandmaster traits can be used to use Master traits can be used to use Adept traits, except now it involves six nodes instead of three).
For example: Turrets would have Cooldown Reduction and Turret Vitality as the stats they increased, Elixirs would have Area of Effect and Chance of Concurrency (chance of giving more than one boon at a time when thrown, and spread effects of elixirs drunk onto nearby allies in accordance with AoE), Kits would have…uh…I have no idea what kits could really use, same with Gadgets.
I’m gonna arbitrarily decide that the 5-point trait for the Turret line is Ammunition, in this particular case, just to be clear:
Now let’s say, going by this system, I put five points into Turrets, and decide my Rifle Turret needs to cause a different Condition than Bleed – so I trait it to deal Poison instead. Or I decide to change Net Turret into a Bleed+Cripple instead of an Immobilize by giving it a Razorwire Net or something.How stupid is that thing I just said? If by some miracle it turns out to not be stupid, I’ll try cleaning it up and posting it to the Suggestions forum.
I like the idea, but…
I like it more, if instead of “Engineer Points” you have a crafting profession like “Engineer mechanic”.
The “Engineer mechanic” can design new turrets by combining materials, weapons, armors…
With an interface similar to other crafting professions.
And maybe… It would be “more real” if this turrets need materials to place them. Or maybe you can have a stock of constructed turrets. If you pick up the turret before it explodes you don’t lose the stock, but if it gets destroyed you can recover just some materials you used to made it.
I think the idea is understandable. Sorry for my english.
I like the idea, but…
I like it more, if instead of “Engineer Points” you have a crafting profession like “Engineer mechanic”.
The “Engineer mechanic” can design new turrets by combining materials, weapons, armors…
With an interface similar to other crafting professions.
And maybe… It would be “more real” if this turrets need materials to place them. Or maybe you can have a stock of constructed turrets. If you pick up the turret before it explodes you don’t lose the stock, but if it gets destroyed you can recover just some materials you used to made it.
I think the idea is understandable. Sorry for my english.
If it took up actual resources, it’d put an unfair economic tax on engineers, which would more than likely turn people off of the idea of playing one.
How about something silly and simple? Each trait line as it is now gives three stats? The two normal ones, and then one related to your tools, kits, and turrets?
Example:
Explosives gives: +10 Power, +1% Condition Duration, and +1% Explosive Radius
Firearms: +10 Precision, +10 Condition Damage, +1% Turret Damage
Inventions: +10 Toughness, +10 Compassion, +1% Turret Health
Alchemy: +10 Vitality, +1% Boon Duration, +2% Elixir Radius (and a new trait to give Elixirs you drink an AoE effect centered on you that gives your allies the effect of the Elixir as well.)
Tools: +1% Toolbelt Recharge, +1% Critical Damage, +1% Gadget and Toolbelt Damage
You ask why no Kit booster? Well, Kits are going to be benefiting from stats and sigils, so, in a way, you can customize them by virtue of what gear you’ve got.
Sounds nice. I like it.
Totally agree. OP gets it.
Regarding what the class should become, because Grenades and Bombs are half way there anyway, Engineers should be the big risk / big reward class: they could very well miss, but if they hit, BOOM!
I think this is true to real life engineers anyway. The US Army Corps of Engineers has a lot of grand successes and phenomenal failures.
The thing that gets me the most is they aren’t even using real physics or anything close to that. Sure I get that explosives would be very bad if they hit us while we were using them but what I’m specifically talking about is the explosion radius. Since when does a grenade not explode larger then the radius they gave to my thief’s sword or my warriors 2 hander? How does that even make sense? It’s like they WANT us to miss. We already have that problem with FT/EG/Torch thanks we don’t need to miss with everything.
/facepalm
They seriously need to hire a prior military munitions officer so they can get some real answers on how this class should behave. Then maybe we’ll get some justice.
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
I like the idea, but…
I like it more, if instead of “Engineer Points” you have a crafting profession like “Engineer mechanic”.
The “Engineer mechanic” can design new turrets by combining materials, weapons, armors…
With an interface similar to other crafting professions.
And maybe… It would be “more real” if this turrets need materials to place them. Or maybe you can have a stock of constructed turrets. If you pick up the turret before it explodes you don’t lose the stock, but if it gets destroyed you can recover just some materials you used to made it.
I think the idea is understandable. Sorry for my english.
If it took up actual resources, it’d put an unfair economic tax on engineers, which would more than likely turn people off of the idea of playing one.
How about something silly and simple? Each trait line as it is now gives three stats? The two normal ones, and then one related to your tools, kits, and turrets?
Example:
Explosives gives: +10 Power, +1% Condition Duration, and +1% Explosive Radius
Firearms: +10 Precision, +10 Condition Damage, +1% Turret Damage
Inventions: +10 Toughness, +10 Compassion, +1% Turret Health
Alchemy: +10 Vitality, +1% Boon Duration, +2% Elixir Radius (and a new trait to give Elixirs you drink an AoE effect centered on you that gives your allies the effect of the Elixir as well.)
Tools: +1% Toolbelt Recharge, +1% Critical Damage, +1% Gadget and Toolbelt DamageYou ask why no Kit booster? Well, Kits are going to be benefiting from stats and sigils, so, in a way, you can customize them by virtue of what gear you’ve got.
Sounds good. I remember another game promising me that cogs would be the next big thing for engineers and that we could put cogs into anything allowing for better stats then most classes. Never happened. I can only imagine what would happen with this title considering the 4 month history thus far.
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
I like the three stats-per-traitline thing, but my only issue is basically that we’d still be using the same sets of traits, thus defeating the original ‘customize the kitten out of everything to make the Engineer the master of preparation’ intent.
However, this seems to have been well-received enough to not get people going “That’s stupid, you’re stupid,” so I’mma maybe clean it up a little and put the better version on the Suggestion forums.
Totally agree. OP gets it.
Regarding what the class should become, because Grenades and Bombs are half way there anyway, Engineers should be the big risk / big reward class: they could very well miss, but if they hit, BOOM!
I think this is true to real life engineers anyway. The US Army Corps of Engineers has a lot of grand successes and phenomenal failures.
The thing that gets me the most is they aren’t even using real physics or anything close to that. Sure I get that explosives would be very bad if they hit us while we were using them but what I’m specifically talking about is the explosion radius. Since when does a grenade not explode larger then the radius they gave to my thief’s sword or my warriors 2 hander? How does that even make sense? It’s like they WANT us to miss. We already have that problem with FT/EG/Torch thanks we don’t need to miss with everything.
/facepalm
They seriously need to hire a prior military munitions officer so they can get some real answers on how this class should behave. Then maybe we’ll get some justice.
To be fair, when was the last time you saw a rifle or pistol fire infinite rounds without reloading? Or a crate not only fall out of thin air but break apart and self-deploy unharmed autonomous robots on impact?
Flash grenade ought to be your indication; they’re not as much grenades as they are very powerful fireworks. Hell, they’re all IMPACT grenades for crying out loud! Do you know how impact grenades are delivered in reality? They’re fired from a grenade laucher or rifle attachment, or propelled via firing systems like an RPG rocket. You don’t “throw” impact grenades because of the dangers that occur when handling them as they’re armed; you throw time-delayed ones instead!
So yeah, if you’re looking for any analogue to actual military hardware, you might as well walk out the door. Rifles here can be shotguns, bomb explosions have friendly-fire options turned off and can even make you feel better, and drinking chemical mixtures can temporarily shrink you or turn you into a tornado. But isn’t that the joy of a fantasy setting? Engineers in game are a modern theme with a completely magical twist, not unlike the Asura golems, and that’s kind of a part of their charm.
Okay, uh, there’s what I got. I couldn’t come up with stuff for a couple of the things, though.
I thought Engineers were like Aquaman since they’re best at water.
I thought Engineers were like Aquaman since they’re best at water.
After the underwater nerfs they’re just average/above average there, nothing special.
I, personally, rather liken the Engineer to a battlefield decoy, considering the amount of aggro gained versus danger represented.