Guild Wars 2

Ok I know Engineers have the bomb kit, grenade kit, flame thrower etc. But for the players who don’t want to use those they are stuck with; pistol/pistol, pistil/shield, rifle.

Kinda of seems underdeveloped when looking at the other classes weapon choices, spell casters can even use swords!
I was thinking maybe when the devs look at Engineers, they could add the Hammer.
It fits the class well and only a few other classes (not including ele lightning hammer) that can use it.

I’d like to see a change like this, I think it would make me want to play my Engineer past level 80.
Until then..

Though kits are only 25% of our utility choices, we’re balanced around using them. This means our weapons are inherently weaker and not meant to carry a build by themselves. Unless they give us a new weapon and forego this design philosophy, it’s always going to be very difficult to find a good build that doesn’t use kits.

Though the Engineer overall I feel is well balanced, this is a big issue to me. It’s not fair to players who want to use the other 75% of our skills to have the Engineer be balanced around using kits.

My thoughts exactly. I myself prefer sticking to my style of gameplay, which avoid switching between multiple skills bars like Ele and Engi.
Not that I can’t get the grasp of it and can be effective.
Rather I am more effective with options, and it pushes me away from Engineer despite how much I want to get involved with the class.

a warrior that refuses to use gs or axe doesnt have much damage

“but mommy i dont wanna use an axe or greatsword”

yawn…

insanemaniac.2456:

a warrior that refuses to use gs or axe doesnt have much damage

“but mommy i dont wanna use an axe or greatsword”

yawn…

Except that’s not at all what he was saying, so you can take your insulting oversimplification elsewhere.

yawn…

Kits are not an acceptable weapon replacement. They either need to give us some additional weapon choices, or allow us to customize our kit appearances somehow.

Adamantium.3682:

insanemaniac.2456:

a warrior that refuses to use gs or axe doesnt have much damage

“but mommy i dont wanna use an axe or greatsword”

yawn…

Except that’s not at all what he was saying, so you can take your insulting oversimplification elsewhere.

yawn…

idk man it sure sounded to me like my insulting oversimplification was apt.

if you cut out half the weapon sets you can access and dont really like the rest… well why even play the class?

sure the weapon animations are sub par
sure theres a tradeoff of utility slots vs immediate access to more than 2 weapon sets
sure our total weapon pool is split into 2 groups with mutually exclusive bins and varied utility/effectiveness

but meh, if you cant get over it theres 7 other classes… 1 is similar, and 6 arent. threatening to quit the class unless x condition is met wont get you anywhere and doesnt elicit an intelligent response from me.

Rynn.1324:

Kits are not an acceptable weapon replacement. They either need to give us some additional weapon choices, or allow us to customize our kit appearances somehow.

…AND stats…

i’m for more weapons but i don’t see how it wil change anything. having a hammer or mace won’t make that triple gadget build work. instead of including static shot in between grenade lobs, you’d just substitute it for a new hammer attack.

If you don’t want to swap kits, then maybe engineer is not the class for you. It’s like wanting to play an elementalist but only with firespells.

If you use 1 kit and 2 elixirs/turrets/etc you only have 1 swap to do, wich really is not that big of a deal.
The way i see it, the kits ARE the weapons of the engi, it’s an engineer, not a rifleman.

insanemaniac.2456:

Adamantium.3682:

insanemaniac.2456:

a warrior that refuses to use gs or axe doesnt have much damage

“but mommy i dont wanna use an axe or greatsword”

yawn…

Except that’s not at all what he was saying, so you can take your insulting oversimplification elsewhere.

yawn…

idk man it sure sounded to me like my insulting oversimplification was apt.

if you cut out half the weapon sets you can access and dont really like the rest… well why even play the class?

sure the weapon animations are sub par
sure theres a tradeoff of utility slots vs immediate access to more than 2 weapon sets
sure our total weapon pool is split into 2 groups with mutually exclusive bins and varied utility/effectiveness

but meh, if you cant get over it theres 7 other classes… 1 is similar, and 6 arent. threatening to quit the class unless x condition is met wont get you anywhere and doesnt elicit an intelligent response from me.

Someone who just started an Engineer may look at the utilities and not understand that they must use at least one type of kit. After all they’re the minority of our skills. Coming from any other profession this would be pretty confusing.

It’s a fact of Engineer life right now but that doesn’t mean it should be or that someone shouldn’t raise their concern with it. Why should he play another profession just because he doesn’t want to use kits? Kits are a minority of the Engineer class. Balance issues are the reason why every build has them, not because they’re some core mechanic of the profession that you can’t get away from.

Adamantium.3682:

insanemaniac.2456:

Adamantium.3682:

insanemaniac.2456:

a warrior that refuses to use gs or axe doesnt have much damage

“but mommy i dont wanna use an axe or greatsword”

yawn…

Except that’s not at all what he was saying, so you can take your insulting oversimplification elsewhere.

yawn…

idk man it sure sounded to me like my insulting oversimplification was apt.

if you cut out half the weapon sets you can access and dont really like the rest… well why even play the class?

sure the weapon animations are sub par
sure theres a tradeoff of utility slots vs immediate access to more than 2 weapon sets
sure our total weapon pool is split into 2 groups with mutually exclusive bins and varied utility/effectiveness

but meh, if you cant get over it theres 7 other classes… 1 is similar, and 6 arent. threatening to quit the class unless x condition is met wont get you anywhere and doesnt elicit an intelligent response from me.

Someone who just started an Engineer may look at the utilities and not understand that they must use at least one type of kit. After all they’re the minority of our skills. Coming from any other profession this would be pretty confusing.

It’s a fact of Engineer life right now but that doesn’t mean it should be or that someone shouldn’t raise their concern with it. Why should he play another profession just because he doesn’t want to use kits? Kits are a minority of the Engineer class. Balance issues are the reason why every build has them, not because they’re some core mechanic of the profession that you can’t get away from.

my point is just that if you eliminate everything thats good based on boredom/dislike… of course youre going to be left with the bad.

you can say… engi has speedy kits, power shoes, elixir B, or centaur or traveller runes to get swiftness. speedy kits gives me carpal tunnel and power shoes arent in a trait line i want… B isnt 100% uptime and i dont wanna give up my runes. so i think engi needs more movement speed options. anet pls?

its so pessimistic. like really? are you kidding?

idk, i think kits should be considered a core mechanic. like on the level of toolbelt, deathshroud, clones, pet, burst. they really define a playstyle different from anything else. maybe they need recognition for that in the game tutorials. maybe they should be more tied in to the weapon swapping paradigm, so you really get the sense that its just a no-cd swap. i feel like the toolbelt is less important anyways… and that it exists more because giving up a whole utility slot for just a weapon set truly is too high a price. and because other utilities pale in comparison to kits when they can only do 1 thing, especially when that 1 thing is often duplicated in a kits skill bar.

Gonna preface this with: I love my engineer. Best class in the game, most blah blah, etc etc etc.

However, I would like to see more non-kit weapon options. Not because I think our kits are lacking or I dislike the mechanic. I actually love the mechanic. But the kit system just doesn’t synergize with aesthetics. Drop 2k gold on a Legendary rifle and you’ll see it maybe 1/2 the time. Grind out a sweet, limited availability backpiece and you’ll see it maybe 1/2 the time or clipped horribly. More weapon options would potentially give us less time in kits. BUT I’d rather see some sort of aesthetic fix for kits.

insanemaniac.2456:

idk, i think kits should be considered a core mechanic. like on the level of toolbelt, deathshroud, clones, pet, burst. they really define a playstyle different from anything else. maybe they need recognition for that in the game tutorials. maybe they should be more tied in to the weapon swapping paradigm, so you really get the sense that its just a no-cd swap. i feel like the toolbelt is less important anyways… and that it exists more because giving up a whole utility slot for just a weapon set truly is too high a price. and because other utilities pale in comparison to kits when they can only do 1 thing, especially when that 1 thing is often duplicated in a kits skill bar.

They cannot be a profession mechanic. There was a thread about this awhile back which was ridiculously bogged down in semantics, but the core point that I agree with is that you have to make meaningful sacrifices to use kits. At least 1 utility slot. When you only have 3 to choose from, that is significant even though it’s “only one”.

A profession mechanic cannot be something that covers only 1/4 of the utility skills. It must be something inherent to the profession. The problem with Engineers is that kits are balanced as though they are our inherent mechanic_ even though they are no different than any other type of utility.

The designers have put themselves between a rock and a hard place with this design choice. It’s not something easily fixed by “buff weapons” or “nerf kits”. Nerfing kits would upset a great deal of Engineer balance, as we are balanced around using them. Buffing weapons would cause Engineer builds to potentially be quite OP as we would have powerful weapons as well as kits.

Seras.5702:

Gonna preface this with: I love my engineer. Best class in the game, most blah blah, etc etc etc.

However, I would like to see more non-kit weapon options. Not because I think our kits are lacking or I dislike the mechanic. I actually love the mechanic. But the kit system just doesn’t synergize with aesthetics. Drop 2k gold on a Legendary rifle and you’ll see it maybe 1/2 the time. Grind out a sweet, limited availability backpiece and you’ll see it maybe 1/2 the time or clipped horribly. More weapon options would potentially give us less time in kits. BUT I’d rather see some sort of aesthetic fix for kits.

Well said. I love the Engineer, have loved it since it was first previewed. I would also love to see more options that didn’t involve kits. I also love the mechanic but hate the aesthetics that come with it. More than that though I just want to play different builds ya know? After a year+ of throwing grenades and blowing stuff up maybe I just want to be a pistolier ya know? Maybe just use a rifle without bring the obligatory kit with it?

Giving us more weapon choice…I really don’t see why people argue against more options. It doesn’t make any sense to me. What is lost by adding options?
It would increase build variety, because we’d at least be able to choose different weapons, which might make given kits more or less vital for different builds.
Arguing against it and suggesting supporters of more weapon choices seems to me like going “There really doesn’t need to be a Red Velvet option for cake. We have Vanilla, and Chocolate! Be happy with those, or get a different dessert!”

Also: As an Engineer who actually really dislikes using Kits: I think they should focus on making our Non-Kit Utility skills good enough to be competitive, rather than improving our Weapon Skills. I think this would increase build variety, reduce reliance on Kits, and keep the Engineer particularly Utility-centric, which could prevent the issues powerful weapons might cause.
In essence, I suggest updating the Class Balance Philosophy to focus on Utility Skills as a whole rather than Kits.

Because somebody always asks: “Why do you play an Engineer if you don’t like Kits?”
I pretty much bought the game to play a Turret-using Engineer, not speed-piano my way through weapon skills. If I wanted to, after all, the Elementalist is right there.
I like Turrets and Gadgets, I don’t like Kits and Elixirs.

On a side-note, I find it hilarious that the guy who went ‘No, giving Engineers weapon-swapping would be homogenizing’ is supporting the idea that Kits are the Engineer’s core mechanic, when Kits are pretty similar to Attunements, the core mechanic of the only other class without weapon-swap.

Anymras.5729:

On a side-note, I find it hilarious that the guy who went ‘No, giving Engineers weapon-swapping would be homogenizing’ is supporting the idea that Kits are the Engineer’s core mechanic, when Kits are pretty similar to Attunements, the core mechanic of the only other class without weapon-swap.

ive defended kits all along… >.>

insanemaniac.2456:

Anymras.5729:

On a side-note, I find it hilarious that the guy who went ‘No, giving Engineers weapon-swapping would be homogenizing’ is supporting the idea that Kits are the Engineer’s core mechanic, when Kits are pretty similar to Attunements, the core mechanic of the only other class without weapon-swap.

ive defended kits all along… >.>

Kits have never needed defending. Every time somebody goes “It’s kind of, uh, awkward and build-limiting how we only have three choices of weapon,” a very common response is “Just use Kits or change class.”

Not wanting to use Kits in a build and be competitive is what’s far more in need of defending, at least going by the response these boards tend to have when somebody is so audacious, so impertinent, as to make a post about how it’d be nice to have more non-Kit weapon choices or generally be less reliant on Kits.

But that’s all aside from the ’Don’t give Engineers weapon swap, it’ll homogenize the classes’/’Engineer’s class mechanic is really the set of Utility skills most similar to the Elementalist’s Attunement mechanic’ juxtaposition I was pointing out, where it seems that two classes having effectively almost the same class mechanic doesn’t qualify as homogeneity.

Edit: Swear filter triggered. Of and Awkward can’t be right next to each other, apparently.

I think kits are awesome and all, but in a sense they are also like equipping a weapon in place of your utility slot. If the balance becomes such that using kits the majority of the time is the one path, then why do many of the utility skills even exist? That’s the problem I see with the lack of options to kits.

Honestly I don’t even think a weapon swap is needed since even without kits you do have the toolbelt and other considerations as an Engi, I think they should just give a few more options like Hammer, or Torch.

Renn.8241:

My thoughts exactly. I myself prefer sticking to my style of gameplay, which avoid switching between multiple skills bars like Ele and Engi.
Not that I can’t get the grasp of it and can be effective.
Rather I am more effective with options, and it pushes me away from Engineer despite how much I want to get involved with the class.

Unfortunately this is kind of just how things are for every class.

As a guardian, if you don’t run consecrations you’re just not really that helpful in dungeons. As a ranger, if you don’t run spirits, you’re not providing the best of what the class offers. And if you’re a warrior, you are certainly expected to take a banner or two. At least War Banner.

Each class is designed around a particular subset of utility skills that, when used properly, set them apart from other classes both in role differentiation and in overall playstyle.

So for warriors, for guardians, for rangers: it’s their banners, their consecrations, their spirits. For us: it’s our kits. Running without a kit or two as an engineer would be similar to running a mesmer without glamour skills: Feedback and Null Field are just what you take mesmers for.

I’m not necessarily defending ArenaNet’s design philosophy behind the engineer or our reliance of kits to be balanced, but this is what every class deals with. A triple meditation guardian build just has no place in FOTM 50 despite how fun it is.

Is there an argument against axing toolbelt skills and replacing them with a selection of four kits?

F1 – Flamethrower
F2 – Elixir Gun
F3 – Bomb Kit
F4 – Grenade Kit

The last trait line would lower the amount of time it takes to switch to another kit, and Tool Kit would replace Flamethrower at the F1 position if you spec so far into that same trait line.

Rynn.1324:

Is there an argument against axing toolbelt skills and replacing them with a selection of four kits?

F1 – Flamethrower
F2 – Elixir Gun
F3 – Bomb Kit
F4 – Grenade Kit

The last trait line would lower the amount of time it takes to switch to another kit, and Tool Kit would replace Flamethrower at the F1 position if you spec so far into that same trait line.

basically…“Eleneer” then. Meh.. i think it wouldnt be good…id rather be able to pick my toolbelt skills independent of the stuff i put into the skill slots and so pick what i need and when i need it.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Renn.8241:

My thoughts exactly. I myself prefer sticking to my style of gameplay, which avoid switching between multiple skills bars like Ele and Engi.
Not that I can’t get the grasp of it and can be effective.
Rather I am more effective with options, and it pushes me away from Engineer despite how much I want to get involved with the class.

Unfortunately this is kind of just how things are for every class.

As a guardian, if you don’t run consecrations you’re just not really that helpful in dungeons. As a ranger, if you don’t run spirits, you’re not providing the best of what the class offers. And if you’re a warrior, you are certainly expected to take a banner or two. At least War Banner.

Each class is designed around a particular subset of utility skills that, when used properly, set them apart from other classes both in role differentiation and in overall playstyle.

So for warriors, for guardians, for rangers: it’s their banners, their consecrations, their spirits. For us: it’s our kits. Running without a kit or two as an engineer would be similar to running a mesmer without glamour skills: Feedback and Null Field are just what you take mesmers for.

I’m not necessarily defending ArenaNet’s design philosophy behind the engineer or our reliance of kits to be balanced, but this is what every class deals with. A triple meditation guardian build just has no place in FOTM 50 despite how fun it is.

No it’s not. You’ve quoted specific areas of the game where certain professions need certain utilities to stay competitive. That’s sort of what the point of utilities is after all. Aside from the examples themselves not being true (a Guard even in fotm 50 does not need to use a consecration) you’ve cherry picked certain areas where this is the case. With the Warrior that’s not even a good comparison at all. Banners make groups better and they’re great for buffing. Warriors are not even close to being balanced around the use of banners…

With the Engineer it’s everywhere in the game where they need to have a kit. It’s not the same as what you’ve described. Guardians are not balanced with at least 1 consecration slotted. Rangers are not balanced with a spirit as a given. Engineers are balanced with kits assumed to be in play.

Rynn.1324:

Is there an argument against axing toolbelt skills and replacing them with a selection of four kits?

F1 – Flamethrower
F2 – Elixir Gun
F3 – Bomb Kit
F4 – Grenade Kit

The last trait line would lower the amount of time it takes to switch to another kit, and Tool Kit would replace Flamethrower at the F1 position if you spec so far into that same trait line.

The argument against putting Kits where they seem to have been intended to be, given that we’re balanced around them, pretty much goes as follows: It would be too close to the Elementalist’s class mechanic.
If we want to play Elementalists, not only do we have an entire set of skills that allow us to mimic Attunements, but we can just go play Elementalists.

No two classes have the same mechanic, because not only would that make the classes less unique individually, it would also rankle for players of both classes – the first class might go “Look at them, they can do just about what we can do. Our class identity is being infringed upon!” and the second might respond with “Our class mechanic is an imitation of another class. What gives? Should we just reroll to that class?”

Instead, I think they should do what at least one other in this thread has suggested about the Toolbelt – allow us to choose the skills that go onto it independently of our Utility slots. That, and more weapon choices, could make for some very, very interesting builds; if nothing else, there’d be a massive amount of build variety, at least for a while.

Adamantium.3682:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Renn.8241:

My thoughts exactly. I myself prefer sticking to my style of gameplay, which avoid switching between multiple skills bars like Ele and Engi.
Not that I can’t get the grasp of it and can be effective.
Rather I am more effective with options, and it pushes me away from Engineer despite how much I want to get involved with the class.

Unfortunately this is kind of just how things are for every class.

As a guardian, if you don’t run consecrations you’re just not really that helpful in dungeons. As a ranger, if you don’t run spirits, you’re not providing the best of what the class offers. And if you’re a warrior, you are certainly expected to take a banner or two. At least War Banner.

Each class is designed around a particular subset of utility skills that, when used properly, set them apart from other classes both in role differentiation and in overall playstyle.

So for warriors, for guardians, for rangers: it’s their banners, their consecrations, their spirits. For us: it’s our kits. Running without a kit or two as an engineer would be similar to running a mesmer without glamour skills: Feedback and Null Field are just what you take mesmers for.

I’m not necessarily defending ArenaNet’s design philosophy behind the engineer or our reliance of kits to be balanced, but this is what every class deals with. A triple meditation guardian build just has no place in FOTM 50 despite how fun it is.

No it’s not. You’ve quoted specific areas of the game where certain professions need certain utilities to stay competitive. That’s sort of what the point of utilities is after all. Aside from the examples themselves not being true (a Guard even in fotm 50 does not need to use a consecration) you’ve cherry picked certain areas where this is the case. With the Warrior that’s not even a good comparison at all. Banners make groups better and they’re great for buffing. Warriors are not even close to being balanced around the use of banners…

With the Engineer it’s everywhere in the game where they need to have a kit. It’s not the same as what you’ve described. Guardians are not balanced with at least 1 consecration slotted. Rangers are not balanced with a spirit as a given. Engineers are balanced with kits assumed to be in play.

There are expectations for each class. You are expected to use consecrations as a guardian. You are expected to use banners as a warrior.

You are expected to use kits as an engineer. If I were to pug a FOTM 50, I certainly would expect a warrior to bring War Banner over Signet of Rage. I expect a warrior to use the axe/whaever and a greatsword. I do not want to see them wielding a mainhand mace or a hammer. I similarly expect an engineer to be wielding a kit of some kind, not auto-attack with his pistol and chugging elixirs.

There are not only utility skill expectations for each class, but weapon expectations for each class. If a mesmer joined your party running scepter/torch, he would be looked down upon. If someone deliberately chooses not to wield kits, they’re essentially gimping themselves just as a warrior would wielding a mace.

While I understand the OP’s desire for more weapon choice, one that I too stand behind and look forward to seeing, the engineer as a class will always be mechanically balanced around the assumption of wielding kits. It’s why we only have one weapon set.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Adamantium.3682:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Renn.8241:

My thoughts exactly. I myself prefer sticking to my style of gameplay, which avoid switching between multiple skills bars like Ele and Engi.
Not that I can’t get the grasp of it and can be effective.
Rather I am more effective with options, and it pushes me away from Engineer despite how much I want to get involved with the class.

Unfortunately this is kind of just how things are for every class.

As a guardian, if you don’t run consecrations you’re just not really that helpful in dungeons. As a ranger, if you don’t run spirits, you’re not providing the best of what the class offers. And if you’re a warrior, you are certainly expected to take a banner or two. At least War Banner.

Each class is designed around a particular subset of utility skills that, when used properly, set them apart from other classes both in role differentiation and in overall playstyle.

So for warriors, for guardians, for rangers: it’s their banners, their consecrations, their spirits. For us: it’s our kits. Running without a kit or two as an engineer would be similar to running a mesmer without glamour skills: Feedback and Null Field are just what you take mesmers for.

I’m not necessarily defending ArenaNet’s design philosophy behind the engineer or our reliance of kits to be balanced, but this is what every class deals with. A triple meditation guardian build just has no place in FOTM 50 despite how fun it is.

No it’s not. You’ve quoted specific areas of the game where certain professions need certain utilities to stay competitive. That’s sort of what the point of utilities is after all. Aside from the examples themselves not being true (a Guard even in fotm 50 does not need to use a consecration) you’ve cherry picked certain areas where this is the case. With the Warrior that’s not even a good comparison at all. Banners make groups better and they’re great for buffing. Warriors are not even close to being balanced around the use of banners…

With the Engineer it’s everywhere in the game where they need to have a kit. It’s not the same as what you’ve described. Guardians are not balanced with at least 1 consecration slotted. Rangers are not balanced with a spirit as a given. Engineers are balanced with kits assumed to be in play.

There are expectations for each class. You are expected to use consecrations as a guardian. You are expected to use banners as a warrior.

You are expected to use kits as an engineer. If I were to pug a FOTM 50, I certainly would expect a warrior to bring War Banner over Signet of Rage. I expect a warrior to use the axe/whaever and a greatsword. I do not want to see them wielding a mainhand mace or a hammer. I similarly expect an engineer to be wielding a kit of some kind, not auto-attack with his pistol and chugging elixirs.

There are not only utility skill expectations for each class, but weapon expectations for each class. If a mesmer joined your party running scepter/torch, he would be looked down upon. If someone deliberately chooses not to wield kits, they’re essentially gimping themselves just as a warrior would wielding a mace.

While I understand the OP’s desire for more weapon choice, one that I too stand behind and look forward to seeing, the engineer as a class will always be mechanically balanced around the assumption of wielding kits. It’s why we only have one weapon set.

Expected to use a certain type of utility or even a specific skill is one thing. Balanced around said utilities is another story entirely. No other profession has this conundrum.

I agree with you that if I am doing FOTM 50 and see a Warrior I fully expect them to have War Banner. I expect a Guardian to have Wall of Reflection if there are projectiles. This is a very specific situation in which certain skills are most helpful. Indeed, I believe that is the point of utilities; different uses for different situations. This in no way means Warriors are balanced for the use of banners, or Guardians are balanced around using consecrations. These are very useful PvE dungeon running skills but in no way, shape, or form are considered mandatory when playing these professions.

This is not at all the same situation as Engineers and kits, not even close. Engineers are balanced with the assumption that one is using a kit, and therefore we must be using a kit to remain competitive. In any build. In any game mode.

Watch from 6:30.
He says there is going to be…but I highly doubt it it’s high on their list

“My main’s an Engineer, I want it too.” – If Colin’s main really is an Engineer and he really does want to get Engineers melee weapons…Well, it’d just be nice if he’d weigh in, I think.
It would help to establish more of a feeling of connection, and we could maybe get a couple ideas on how it’d work. Doubt it, but still.

A-net has said that they are working on getting all weapons to all classes.

Dustfinger.9510:

A-net has said that they are working on getting all weapons to all classes.

Yes, yes they did. Ages ago. The statement will hold zero weight until at least one profession gets at least one new weapon. It hasn’t happened yet.

Yea I like to see a warrior fighting with a fairy scepter …

Rynn.1324:

Dustfinger.9510:

A-net has said that they are working on getting all weapons to all classes.

Yes, yes they did. Ages ago. The statement will hold zero weight until at least one profession gets at least one new weapon. It hasn’t happened yet.

Little weight for you maybe. They said they have no time table on this. I’d guess for obvious reasons like making sure each weapon is at least halfway balnced with the weapons already in existence. And probably the desire to not just give one new weapon to one class at a time. Which would only bring anguish and gnashing of teath from the players of classes that didn’t get the weapon. (And even some that did, Im sure)

When i see this post, and see the responses, i think of the power ranger. It’s been a while since i played one, so I don’t know if they finally changed it, but basically if you wanted to play power you were forced to use 2 or 3 signets, or your build was useless, then when you complain you have no variety, people tell you to rerole as a condi ranger or switch classes.

Not everyone wants to play the meta… personally, i am like the OP and many others in this thread, I specifically roll with classes that are less used, and roll builds that nobody, or very few people, would use, or think of. Anet really rode in on the “we want you to have a ton of variety in how you play the game” horse, and instead, everyone is basically forced to use certain utilities on certain classes, or suffer by having a kittenty build.

Aside from the fact that engi’s are forced to use kits, I think new weapons just make sense on the class, just as much, or more-so than guns.

- Hammer: Engi’s build things, you use hammers to build stuff
- Torch: Anyone ever heard of welding?
- Mace(wrench): again, a wrench is another building tool, maybe a little more far-fetched, but you gotta have some kind of one handed main wep to go with torch.

I thought I could add my two cents here.

I’ve been playing Engi for… a month, maybe? But it’s already my favourite class. In fact, it became my favourite class the moment I used that go-up-to-level-20 scroll on the character.

The class is FUN. Like a ride on an amusement park-level fun. But it lacks options.

It’s not like the Guardian or Warrior examples someone put up there. Those are one, or two utility skills you must use under certain circumstances. In the Engineer’s case, I’ve yet to find a reason to not use Pistol&Shield as weapons, Healing Turret as healing skill, Bomb Kit and Grenade Kit as utility skills and Supply Crate Satellite Drop as elite skill everytime, everywhere.

That leaves me with an astounding amount of one free utility slot. Which I almost never use anyway unless I need the Elixir Gun when I’m on a party and there are no other healers around or I just want to have fun burninating things with the Flamethrower. For me there’s just no point on switching over anything else because everything else is useless in comparison and those skills have all the options built into them.

The Engineer is a solid class, I like playing it. I can do many things and I have fun doing them. But that comes at the price of completely ignoring around 22 skills out of 27.

Imagine an Elementalist that has to equip the attunements through utility slots and whose only weapon choices are the scepter and the staff. That’s an Engineer.

This also has one side effect, which is what kept me off the class for a year: Playing a low-level Engineer sucks beyond any real or imaginary boundary you can come up with. I tried playing an Engineer four times until I got that anniversary scroll. I always ended up deleting the char before hitting level 15 because oh god it’s so kitten boring I can’t even. The Engineer is a class that needs utility skills to be playable and entertaining. And there’s nothing in the game hinting to the fact that the only way you can do the same things other classes do is through weapon kits. Or that turrets suck.

I don’t know how I would fix this, actually. Granting the Engineer a melee weapon choice (we can do that with kits, we know, but that’s exactly the point) and allowing to switch weapons could work, maybe. Fixing turrets would also do wonders for making the class a bit more varied, I guess.

Give engineers rocket hammers.

It may not solve the problem, but it’d look hella awesome.

Coenraad.8302:

If you don’t want to swap kits, then maybe engineer is not the class for you. It’s like wanting to play an elementalist but only with firespells.

If you use 1 kit and 2 elixirs/turrets/etc you only have 1 swap to do, wich really is not that big of a deal.
The way i see it, the kits ARE the weapons of the engi, it’s an engineer, not a rifleman.

There’s a perfectly viable Staff Elementalist that almost sits on Fire for most battles. There should be better options than just one or two “meta” builds (same applies for Ranger and the others), though I am not complaining about the Engineer Profession per se.

Turret builds , for instance, seems an infinitely “weaker” choice, and more of a flavor mechanic. Nothing against them, but that’s how they feel to me. The kits are a)too powerful in comparison, or more likely, b)the turrets are rather underpowered, perhaps due to ANet fearing PvP players’ complaints against “passive” gameplay as they call it.

Though I don’t mind that much, “kit dancing” (same with elemental attuning) is not for every player-that doesn’t mean they should be treated with arrogant disdain: “go play your EZ mode Warrior, scrub!” There should be (powerful/decent) options for other types of players who don’t necessarily enjoy swapping kits all the time (in fact, there are options-they just don’t seem as attractive as kits do.)

I am sure there are players who have come with their own builds that work for them, however.

An Engineer could theoretically be a rifleman too. There are many ways to play one-that’s their point. The more (good) options, the better.

meta builds are in every pvp game. there will always be builds that are better and if you want to be competitive, you run those builds. pve is different. you can literally run anything in pve and succeed because of how pve is designed. in dungeons there’s no running out of mana, there’s no timed boss encounters requiring maximum dps, etc. in openw orld events there’s just so many people that all you have to do is mash 1 to succeed. this is all in addition to it’s all just so godkitten easy anyway. ugh pve.

edit: forgot to contribute to the topic. being the pessimist that i am, even though i’m for new weapons like mace or torch or whatever, i seriously doubt it will change the style in which engis are played, the style being KITS KITS KITS.

The problem with making one kit just as powerful as kit swapping is with the concept of options. One kit that is just as powerful as all of them means that all kits would need to be clones of the other. because the reason kit swapping is more powerful is because kit swapping is the act of switching between the different options of different kits. The only way to get rid of that is to get rid of “different options” in different kits. Id rather have the options.

edit: that’s not to say that one kit can’t be viable. they can and basically are. But they can’t all be “optimal”.

Anymras.5729:

“My main’s an Engineer, I want it too.” – If Colin’s main really is an Engineer and he really does want to get Engineers melee weapons…Well, it’d just be nice if he’d weigh in, I think.
It would help to establish more of a feeling of connection, and we could maybe get a couple ideas on how it’d work. Doubt it, but still.

Colin also hates hobosacks. He even said so over a year ago.

Yesterday my warrior hit lv80 and I was about to buy a mace when I discovered a mace (forgot the name unfortunately, something like “Fixinator” ? dunno xD) that EXACTLY looks like our tool kit OH MY I would LOVE to see that thing on my ing with a shield – huehue. It just should not be the same as the tool kit, wich sounds a bit hard.

Renn.8241:

Ok I know Engineers have the bomb kit, grenade kit, flame thrower etc. But for the players who don’t want to use those they are stuck with; pistol/pistol, pistil/shield, rifle.

That is like saying, a thief that doesn’t want to use daggers, sword, and pistol is stuck with a shortbow.

Except that kits aren’t proper weapons – they can’t be equipped as one – and use up utility slots. Utility slots that could be used by other utilities as well, if only the class wasn’t balanced upon the use of kits.

AND kits are based on rare weapons, not exotics. They auto-kitten level 80 damage.