Guild Wars 2

It wasn’t grenade barrage, box of nails, med kit bomb, or bomb kit bomb. It wasn’t being able to use those four effects in a row as you could originally, because even all four of those KR effects didn’t amount to much in most fights (except for the well-timed barrage in a glass cannon build, of course). In other words, if you were to spam all of those effects at the same time, the only one you’d really notice is the barrage and maybe the nails.

No, the one thing that engineers miss about kit refinement is the condition removal. Most used elixir gun, a few used flamethrower—but the important thing was you could have condition removal without needing 20 points in alchemy and/or elixirs on your utility bar.

People are reacting strongly against the patch because even though the new KR effects are cool, they don’t fill that hole in a non-elixir build.

The new effects are completely worthless.

Deal with it. Respec to HGH grenades / delete your engineer / enjoy being useless.

Spiuk.8421:

The new effects are completely worthless and crippled by a shared cooldown.

Deal with it.

/sigh, no, not entirely. The Medkit and Bomb Kit got far better abilities than they used to have, so not all of the abilities got kittenier.
Global cooldown is awful though.

The thing I miss most if big ole’ bomb . No more leading a mini zerg to a precipice to fight you – likely dying there from burst, but watching your bomb toss a bunch of them off the cliff.

KR never made a Big Ole’ Bomb, and the ability is still in the game.

Having two condition removers for free – that is, having to use FT and EG and spend 10 points in traits – is too powerful!

We’re supposed to be a tanky medium ranged thingy, and having free condition removers would make us too tanky, because we’ve got so many tanking tools built in already!

All right, I’m done. It was kinda too good, especially for 10 points. They really should have kept the old stuff and pushed it up a tier or two in traits. Its not like anyone uses Scope anyways right?

(P.S. If you use Scope, it’s been broken since forever and you’re bad and should feel bad.)

gimmethegepgun.1284:

/sigh, no, not entirely. The Medkit and Bomb Kit got far better abilities than they used to have, so not all of the abilities got kittenier.
Global cooldown is awful though.

Kit Refinement has a 20 second internal cooldown.

Medkit’s drop stimulant is on a 20 second cooldown.

Now, with the above 2 statements taken together, can we not see the level of fail that has gone into this trait? "Oh gee, the new Kit Refinement is a compelling reason to take the Medkit! All I gotta do is… forgo using one of the more compelling reasons to use the Medkit!

The Engineer is now the Ford Pinto class of the game.

Silentsins.3726:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

/sigh, no, not entirely. The Medkit and Bomb Kit got far better abilities than they used to have, so not all of the abilities got kittenier.
Global cooldown is awful though.

Kit Refinement has a 20 second internal cooldown.

Medkit’s drop stimulant is on a 20 second cooldown.

Now, with the above 2 statements taken together, can we not see the level of fail that has gone into this trait? "Oh gee, the new Kit Refinement is a compelling reason to take the Medkit! All I gotta do is… forgo using one of the more compelling reasons to use the Medkit!

The Engineer is now the Ford Pinto class of the game.

Did you not see me say that the GCD is awful?
The changes to the abilities it activates aren’t all awful, 2 of them are far better than the effect they used to have.
But it’s still ruined by the GCD.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Did you not see me say that the GCD is awful?
The changes to the abilities it activates aren’t all awful, 2 of them are far better than the effect they used to have.
But it’s still ruined by the GCD.

I wasn’t really disagreeing with anything you said as much as making a point that I myself just realized while playing the game, and it happened to flow naturally from what you were saying.

I just came to the realization that even IF they put these effects on separate cooldowns, the powerful-looking Medkit KR is actually very underwhelming and niche since I’d have to give up starting fights with Drop Stimulant — unless I decide to run around in medkit all the time, which is equally un-enticing.

The more that I give Kit Refinement it’s fair shot, the less likely it is that I see myself slotting it.

Right, if the new effects had individual cooldowns there would be tons of great ways to use them. My point was that the thing missing from the old KR wasn’t the ability to chain effects together quickly because even with four kits on your bar, you could probably only get 1-2 noticeable effects.

I was just pointing out that no matter how many creative things you do with utility slots, people still need to have condition removal and a stunbreak in competitive builds. If there’s only one decent way for a profession to get those, that profession will have only 1 competitive build.

I remember probably only a few months ago discussing a Grenade Condi HGH build and it being dismissed as not even close to viable next to things like Static Discharge or Condi-Bunker builds. (“Offhand Pistol is terrible!”) Open your minds, there are other effective builds out there. Do not intentionally pigeonhole yourself into a single build because the community sees it as viable. If previous history means anything, then it’s very likely there are other viable builds out there the community doesn’t know about.

I’ll fully agree the Kit Refinement change removes the 100 Nades burst, but the HGH Power Nades was a build that still was viable before that and even has more survival. Turrets honestly show plenty of potential and Static Discharge got plenty of buffs this time around. Every patch we get one nerf, and a whole lotta buffs. Everyone always focuses on that one nerf irregardless whether it was too strong or not and says the Engineer always gets nerfed yada yada poor us. Yet, we are just fine.

they should have changed EG proc, that one was very strong.
But FT should have kept it’s condition removal.

Very simple, very balanced.

NevirSayDie.6235:

No, the one thing that engineers miss about kit refinement is the condition removal. Most used elixir gun, a few used flamethrower—but the important thing was you could have condition removal without needing 20 points in alchemy and/or elixirs on your utility bar.

People are reacting strongly against the patch because even though the new KR effects are cool, they don’t fill that hole in a non-elixir build.

This is so true. I’ve already said it a dozen times in other threads, but the ONLY reason I keep elixir gun up is for the KR super elixir. Not the SE in the kit itself, which uses ground targeting, but the KR-triggered one. And the only reason i took KR is for SE. The other KR skills can be marginally useful, but over all don’t seem to make much difference. It’s a joke trait now for sure. This change, for me, makes both KR and the Elixir Gun useless (well ok… i still like the toolbelt aoe regen).

As far as SE goes, I rarely have to drop down the ground targeted version from the kit, and i don’t use it for healing much. The triggered SE was the only thing I used for condition removal. The rest of the elixir gun kit is just ok. I will likely be switching it out now, which is fine except it’s going to take a loooong time to get used to something new considering that constant kit switching — with the expectation that certain things will happen, like SE dropping — is programmed into my fingers at this point. I’m on autopilot with that stuff, and am not afraid to admit that I’m grumpy about the patch because I’m not good at adjusting to change! lol

Part of what I’ll miss is just that the KR super elixir was fun and it made me feel helpful. I liked to do drivebys and drop it down as I ran past someone who was fighting to give them a little extra help. Or when I was exploring a new zone it was awesome plop down while I was crippled and running for my life, and have it cure my conditions and save my little behind. Yes, I know there are other options for condition removal, but it’s just not the same. /sniffle

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Spiuk.8421:

The new effects are completely worthless and crippled by a shared cooldown.

Deal with it.

/sigh, no, not entirely. The Medkit and Bomb Kit got far better abilities than they used to have, so not all of the abilities got kittenier.
Global cooldown is awful though.

no bomb hit! noooooo way!!! dropping a tiny bomb that would hit ( on my fulll berserker gear) 2-3k.. everytime i switch to the kit ! that was awesome but often undervalued! i used it before a dodge! leaving 2 tiny bombs that would do a lot of AoE damage to mobs and enemies!

the new bomb lacks range.. so unless the target is already inside the other bomb radious, this won’t do much! it doesnt even work for balling enemies S: .. the best use for this bomb to far is to use it when you have someone chasing you to slow them down, that’s about it

That’s really the issue with multi-kit builds—kits themselves aren’t in a bad spot, but they don’t have a lot of utility together, and they clutter up your utilities so you lose a lot of space for condition removal, or stun-breaking (or a defense against stuns), unless you want to give something up. Or a lot of somethings.

Kit traits are scattered and we have, what, Backpack Regenerator and Kit Refinement that benefit all of them? Elixirs have how many traits about them? All turret traits affect all turrets. Kit Refinement stood out as giving us a lot of utility to compliment are kits that we needed—stacking up small abilities (1-condition per removal, running med kit, FT and/or EG, that’s 2-3 conditions removed) to be as strong as actual utility options.

I think a total reliance and having a build hinging around a 10-point trait was messed up, but it really highlights an issue of versatility a supposedly versatile class has—that is, that we don’t actually have room to be versatile in a lot of builds.

Kit Refinement’s change didn’t blow my build up, but it is going to make me more reliant on outside sources (teammates, foodbuffs) to do things I can’t on my own, for the sake of my survivability.

google.3709:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Spiuk.8421:

The new effects are completely worthless and crippled by a shared cooldown.

Deal with it.

/sigh, no, not entirely. The Medkit and Bomb Kit got far better abilities than they used to have, so not all of the abilities got kittenier.
Global cooldown is awful though.

no bomb hit! noooooo way!!! dropping a tiny bomb that would hit ( on my fulll berserker gear) 2-3k.. everytime i switch to the kit ! that was awesome but often undervalued! i used it before a dodge! leaving 2 tiny bombs that would do a lot of AoE damage to mobs and enemies!

the new bomb lacks range.. so unless the target is already inside the other bomb radious, this won’t do much! it doesnt even work for balling enemies S: .. the best use for this bomb to far is to use it when you have someone chasing you to slow them down, that’s about it

I could see the new bomb being useful for point holding in PvP, place Big Ol’ Bomb, kit change, start placing other bombs, enemies either get sucked in and eat all the bombs or have to get out of the capture zone, either is good for you.

R.I.P. Super Elixir Kit Refinement,
The only thing you’re useful for now is swapping to EG then popping Acid Bomb and watching people get stuck in your 2k damage ticks (oh darn, I shouldn’t have said that, nerf incoming). This being said, I would much rather have the extra light field and heal. With the old KR EG I could pretty much solo heal my team while still dishing out 2k-10k crits with rifles, all while boasting 2.9k armor, 19k health, 60% crit rate (with fury of course), and 60% crit damage.

Elixir Gun was ONLY OP in pvp (and barely at that), something that devs really need to look at seperating now. In the March 14th interview their excuse for not seperating the two was “we don’t want people to get confused about skills changing in and out of pve.” This is complete horse kitten , it worked for GW1 perfectly fine. Not to mention builds used in pvp are going to be different than thosed use in pve 70% of the time.

I played my ele all day today…. it’s sad that the devs think engineers are some kind of sister class to the elementalist.

My damage is the same, burst is better. Condition removal is better than elixirgun/KR was. My healing is better. My speed is better. My healing turret never dies, and follows me everywhere I go

I miss my engineer, (the way it used to be) it was more my style, but everything as an elementalist is just plain better.

Ezeriel.9574:

I played my ele all day today…. it’s sad that the devs think engineers are some kind of sister class to the elementalist.

My damage is the same, burst is better. Condition removal is better than elixirgun/KR was. My healing is better. My speed is better. My healing turret never dies, and follows me everywhere I go

I miss my engineer, (the way it used to be) it was more my style, but everything as an elementalist is just plain better.

This pretty much sums up my feels exactly, only way to beat an ele as a Engi if you are on a roughly equal skill level that I’ve found atm is to use HGH grenades and condition them to death, that’s assuming they don’t just run halfway across the map the second things look bad.

BurrTheKing.8571:

This pretty much sums up my feels exactly, only way to beat an ele as a Engi if you are on a roughly equal skill level that I’ve found atm is to use HGH grenades and condition them to death, that’s assuming they don’t just run halfway across the map the second things look bad.

Definitely, our standard build has the best shot at 1v1ing an ele successfully. Although actually net turret is actually incredibly strong against eles 1v1. If you drop it after they leave fire attunement they’ll have a hard time AoEing it down and for an ele, not being able to move/dodge is bad.

irakai.6891:

Having two condition removers for free – that is, having to use FT and EG and spend 10 points in traits – is too powerful!

So 2 condition removers every 20secs is OP for 10pts. Why is a condition removal every 9 secs not? Go look at Ele traits in water line. Also take a look a Guardian traits. 1 condition every 10secs passive..they don’t even have to devote a skill slot and switch to it to achieve this. And these are class that already have a much better condition removal system in place. Imagine if 10pt instead of kit refinement was a boon you could get for hitting tool-belt skill. That would be better than what we have now..And ele one is on a 9 secs

Kimbald.2697:

they should have changed EG proc, that one was very strong.
.

It was no more powerful than traits a Ele has switching to water. Sure it cost 15pts for them to achieve same thing but it is also did not cost them a utility slot. And it could be on a 9sec CD.

Moddo.7105:

irakai.6891:

Having two condition removers for free – that is, having to use FT and EG and spend 10 points in traits – is too powerful!

So 2 condition removers every 20secs is OP for 10pts. Why is a condition removal every 9 secs not? Go look at Ele traits in water line. Also take a look a Guardian traits. 1 condition every 10secs passive..they don’t even have to devote a skill slot and switch to it to achieve this. And these are class that already have a much better condition removal system in place. Imagine if 10pt instead of kit refinement was a boon you could get for hitting tool-belt skill. That would be better than what we have now..And ele one is on a 9 secs

Its 2 condition removers every 20 seconds provided you use two utility slots for EG and FT. To be fair, EG and FT are also very good kits for our survivability, so its not exactly terrible synergy.

The thing is, I’m just stating that this is ANet’s vision for us. They say we’re supposed to be a tanky mid ranged skirmisher – I guess having 2 condition removers at the cost of 10 points and 2 utility slots is too tanky for their liking.

I’ve said it before months ago that when it comes to power balance between classes, we as individual players do not really have much credit to our opinions because this game is balanced around classes working in teams, and ANet might have a better big picture view with collected statistics.

While recent changes have shown that they might be clueless too, we’re powerless to stop them because this is their game. The most we can do is provide a compelling reason as to why their change was bad, and hope they read the forums and agree.

However, you don’t need numbers to tell you the current KR change in regards to global cooldown is stupid. It’s pretty much useless in builds with more than 2 kits. Add to that the fact that they think a little damage increase is going to make turrets useful again shows that they’re disconnected when the reality of the class.

I would actually be somewhat okay with the changes if they weren’t done so poorly.