Engis Role in a zerg?

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Maiden England.3491

Maiden England.3491

Engineer is great for small group fights in wvw, but what about a zerg? I seriously don’t see anything that this class has to offer in a zerg. guardians can offer massive amounts of boons and soak tons of damage, also have 6 second CD blast finisher. warriors are most sought out for their warbanners. eles have great water/fire fields. necros apply aoe conditions wonderfully. and on and on it goes. the trend for all these professions is that theyre only really known for their SUPPORT abilities in a zerg. when i open up the trait/skill lines, most of the good things i find are just outdone by another class, in terms of support that is. ive realized that engi is a very very selfish class, and that is why i think they are good for small group, but not zerging. even rangers waterfield far outdoes healing turret. its permanent waterfield, removes conditions, and cannot be destroyed. is this class actually useless in a zerg or does it have something to offer?

Street Regulator

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Ejiofor.4801

Ejiofor.4801

Great for small groups, definitely. In zergs, I don’t think they are nearly as effective, as you say.

This has been our dilemma, as Engineers, since day one. At all times, people who play Engineers try to find what fits best in WvW as far as builds are concerned.

A small group of Engineers, ranging from around 8-10, can be EXTREMELY DEADLY to a force that sports 20 to 25, even up to 40!(I know it sounds weird, but awhile back my 8 of my fellow Engineers of NERF took on about 36, and won, to our surprise!. Unfortunately, we didn’t get any video of it ). Use of timed Supply Crate Drops, staggered combo fields, and constantly using turrets as ‘pivot points’ or ‘waypoints’, so to speak, among other things )…

Gearstrip Jones, Engineer, Borlis Pass, [KPUP]
“Which Lo Pan? Little ol’ basket case on wheels, or the ten-foot-tall roadblock?!”
-Kurt Russell, Big Trouble in Little China

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Maiden England.3491

Maiden England.3491

yes this would probably work if the 8 man team was extremely skilled and organized whilst the 30 man team is scattered, unskillful, and unorganized. When I said this I meant in a very organized fashion. If both sides are skillful and organized, the 8 man wouldnt survive. but my question was if the engineer has something special to offer an organized 30-40 man zerg.

Street Regulator

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Dropper.9176

Dropper.9176

You Can Specc Full support Engi : 2x Waterfield , Lightfield, Firefield, lots of explo finisher , 380 direct heal while using Bombs ( @ 1800 heal), Rezz field (guild build play)

You can Specc Nade Condi for AE Condi or power for direct dmg add Flame Thrower and you got 2x AE push and 3x Blind with P/shield ( Guild Build Play / pug Zergs)

You can specc static discharge and finish off enemy glas canon Thief / AE classes ( pug zergs)

So i dont see an Engi useless in zerg fights.

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Maiden England.3491

Maiden England.3491

that all sounds great on paper dropper, but have you actually tried using all that in a zerg? all the fields are outdone by eles, all the condi damage is outdone by necro, and you dont need any extra blast finishers when you have 3-5 guardians with hammers. im talking about organized zerg vs zerg. all the small stuff REALLY doesnt make a lick of difference in a zerg. its about the big support the classes have to offer, which i dont see how engi has any of.

Street Regulator

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Langeist.3675

Langeist.3675

Engineer does fine as support in a zerg. I run with FT/EG with Healing turret and Mine. I dropped fire and water fields when needed and i can constantly cleanse conditions. i throw the mine into zergs for knockback and boon removal and a supply crate for the stun. Detonating a flame blast in a zerg does some nice aoe damage and air blast is also helpful for interrupts. Fumigate is also good when blasting a zerg for aoe poison. the only problem with engineer is lack of stability, which isn’t a big deal since their are so many guardians. I never understand why people constantly complain about engineers in zergs.

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Punny.9210

Punny.9210

*the OP is from SoR T1, make sure u know how BIG t1 zerg is before u post though

one of the reason i dont play my engi these days. in T1 zerg you need something BIG.

when i spec for bunker / condi to get more survival, my dmg really suck in mega zerg.

Blackgate

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Maiden England.3491

Maiden England.3491

one of the reason i dont play my engi these days. in T1 zerg you need something BIG.

when i spec for bunker / condi to get more survival, my dmg really suck in mega zerg.

yes thats a good point. i find myself only using engi for either scouting or just for fun. when i need to get some work done in a zerg i dont even consider engi.

Street Regulator

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Dropper.9176

Dropper.9176

I actually played full Support and Nades support Engi in organised Guild play , it does make an impact. If you say this class is better in doing this and that class is better in doing that , thats correct but as a Full support Engi you are able to deliver various kind of support and none of it is useless or significantly weaker than the ultimate class you are comparing it too. Elixir R Toolbelt ability is super strong the biggest problem in that full support specc is , you need stability support or you wont be able to push with the meele zerg core.

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Langeist.3675

Langeist.3675

I don’t know what else to tell ya. I run with an organized zerg with my guild all the time. I guess I’m lucky my guild is smart enough to utilize an engineer properly. The engineer is only limited because it is one of the hardest classes to understand. It also doesn’t help that it is easier to play an engineer badly and do poorly then some other classes. I bunker, burst and support very well. Running conditions in a zerg is a waste since their is so much condition removal, so i go with power.

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Deniara Devious.3948

Deniara Devious.3948

I want to make a distinction between these situations:

1) part of a PuG group vs enemy PuG group

I mean a group of random players, probably lead by a commander with visible tag, against another group of random players. Engineer can do variety of roles from condition cleansing, healing, buffing allies, to AoE damage and CC. The only problem is that engineer really is jack of all trades and master of none, thus other professions can do almost any of those roles better than the engineer.

2) Member of a pro guild group

I am talking about guilds like these. In WvWvW they usually run with commander tag off (not to attract PuGs):
http://gw2gvg.com/

Engineer’s role in top guild vs guild and pro guilds isn’t actually well-defined as it has been more or less non-existing. Your commander might in fact ask you to reroll into some other profession. Heavy armor professions, warriors and guardians, form the front line of the guild group. Staff elementalists provide needed combo fields, healing and AoE from range. Necromancers put massive condition pressure and remove boons, blind, chill, poison and cripple the enemy. Mesmers are needed for their great utility skills like portal, veil, nullfield and time stop. These 5 professions form the base of the WvWvW meta.

Rangers and thieves snipe the enemy ranged players and thieves also do stealth stomps. Engineers are the rarest profession in such setup. I don’t want to repeat all the reasons for these, but here is another thread, which explains WHY engineer is not part of the WvWvW meta and why medium armor is rare and engineer is the rarest and least needed:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Do-Engineers-get-more-accepted-into-groups/first#post2480748

So unfortunately from a pro guild group point of view engineer is the bottom profession. I have been thinking a lot of different builds and ideas how to change it, but I cannot.

I however have some ideas how to slightly buff the engineer, in ways which make engineer more viable in such setting:
- increase range of blunderbuss and overcharged shot, which are both very short range considering a zerg setting (rifle is relatively retaliation safe weapon, unless the grenade kit, bomb kit or flamethrower, which can get your engineer killed)
- make blunderbuss a blast finisher (I know engi has tons of blast finishers, BUT many of them e.g. the turrets are useless in a pro zerg setting)
- backbag regenerator should scale better with healing power (now it scales horribly)
- engineer must get better access to stability (the constant stun, knockdown, knockback chains will turn your engi into a ping pong ball if you get hit by their melee. Note you can also get pulled into their melee even if you stay in range and the enemy rangers can knock back you a lot nowadays with point black shot) e.g. personal battering ram and elixir U could give 4 s stability

Deniara / Ayna – I want the original WvWvW maps back – Desolation [EU]

(edited by Deniara Devious.3948)

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

I think it is important to make that distinction, because when someone writes “organized zerg” I just have to laugh.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Maiden England.3491

Maiden England.3491

I think it is important to make that distinction, because when someone writes “organized zerg” I just have to laugh.

you must’ve never seen one then

Street Regulator

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Seras.5702

Seras.5702

Engineers…

have a ton of blast finishers to combo off all the zerg particle fields.
can use MedKit to trigger 6x Runes of Altruism on cooldown, spreading Might & Fury
can use grenade kit for long range aoe damage spamming into an enemy zerg mass
has a large (unkillable) healing light field and a conal condition cleanse in EG
can drop/throw MedKits all over the place
can use tossed Elixir R for aoe party rez

Flixx Gatebuster, Orwynn Lightgrave, Seras Snapdragon
[TTBH] [HATE], Yak’s Bend(NA)

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Phineas Poe.3018

Phineas Poe.3018

When I’m not concerned about collecting badges, I usually just focus on spamming Fumigate, Super Elixir, and the Healing Turret as much as possible for mass condition removal.

[EG] Ethereal Guardians

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

I think it is important to make that distinction, because when someone writes “organized zerg” I just have to laugh.

you must’ve never seen one then

Because there aren’t any. As size increases, the frequency of undisciplined actions increase. Zergs can be semi-organized in that a commander calls for fields and blasts, but they usually are a mess. Someone always manages to drop the wrong field and just forget trying to drop the right field in the middle of a battle. A zerg always manages to become amorphous on a field. Maybe some in the zerg are using VOIP which gives the appearance of organized play. Most in a zerg are not and, given enough numbers, do not need to be.

Compare with organized groups who strive to remain disciplined and coordinate on VOIP. Wrong fields and formation issues are mistakes in these kinds of groups rather than a feature.

Another distinguishing feature is that in a zerg, people don’t know what builds others are running while in an organized group, members should know each others builds. I’m talking about beyond just a zerg field commander calling for all warriors to run battle standard, etc.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

(edited by Chaba.5410)

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Wiseman.4075

Wiseman.4075

I think it is important to make that distinction, because when someone writes “organized zerg” I just have to laugh.

you must’ve never seen one then

Because there aren’t any. As size increases, the frequency of undisciplined actions increase. Zergs can be semi-organized in that a commander calls for fields and blasts, but they usually are a mess. Someone always manages to drop the wrong field and just forget trying to drop the right field in the middle of a battle. A zerg always manages to become amorphous on a field. Maybe some in the zerg are using VOIP which gives the appearance of organized play. Most in a zerg are not and, given enough numbers, do not need to be.

Compare with organized groups who strive to remain disciplined and coordinate on VOIP. Wrong fields and formation issues are mistakes in these kinds of groups rather than a feature.

I for one would love to see [NERF] do a GvG! I’ve played against you guys and you are lot of fun! I also agree a guild zerg tends to be very organized if everyone is on TS but getting pugs in a zerg reduces any organization at a steady rate.

Throwing in my 2c, I have to say as an engi its true you dont have a defined roll in a zerg unless one is assigned to you but thats no fun. I main an engi and while in a zerg, I’m spamming my 2x aoe condition removals, 4x heal/regens, grenades/conditions, FT conditions which also does over 10k aoe dmg over 2sec hitting up to 5 people every second. There are of course heavy condition builds using bombs and nades allowing you to tag the middle of a zerg or hit from 1500 range.

When it comes down to it, an engi’s roll in a zerg is to play smart and know the class and know what the zerg needs at any given moment and use our large skill set to meet those needs the best you can.

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

There is movement in that department at NERF… We’re slow, but there is movement.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Diet Plain.4513

Diet Plain.4513

Bomb Engineers do well in zerg fights as long as you’re specced to be able to take dmg. Drop glue bombat the start to cc lay down fire and conc bomb. I usually save smoke bomb for aoe cloak incase i need to revive someone. I use PVT 20/0/20/20/10. Taking all those prot traits and elixir s at 25% hp. Takes a lot to kill me.

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Sabull.5670

Sabull.5670

As long as the engi plays for the Utility – Elixir R ress, using Healing turret for as many people and as often as possible, in addition to couple of blasts in it every time. Elixir gun Fumigate is absolutely massive condi remover and super elixir helping out too. And bringing extra fields and blasts.

If engi goes into large scale thinking he is the main bomber, or that his condi gonna break organised teams. He is not gonna be the MVP. But if he takes a supportive mind set, with bomb&EG&elixirR, pistol/shield. Taking everything out of the combo fields, blasts and cleanses. He can definetly be very valuable even in the larger scale.

[TA]

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Mister Mustard.7203

Mister Mustard.7203

Engi does well in a support role, as others have said. I enjoy playing EG and using the water fields from HT, and I know I provide some utility to my group. But, I do realize I could probably just be a Guardian and do that a lot better and more efficiently.

Does it not strike anyone else as slightly odd that all 3 of the Medium Armor classes are the 3 worst ZvZ combatants?

I feel that the Mediums were probably supposed to bring damage to the large fights. But with how things are, the damage kinda takes care of itself when your side can keep stability and heals up, and keep the other side from doing the same. Since the Mediums aren’t as good as the Heavies and Lights in those roles, I think they fall behind.

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Maiden England.3491

Maiden England.3491

I think it is important to make that distinction, because when someone writes “organized zerg” I just have to laugh.

you must’ve never seen one then

Because there aren’t any. As size increases, the frequency of undisciplined actions increase. Zergs can be semi-organized in that a commander calls for fields and blasts, but they usually are a mess. Someone always manages to drop the wrong field and just forget trying to drop the right field in the middle of a battle. A zerg always manages to become amorphous on a field. Maybe some in the zerg are using VOIP which gives the appearance of organized play. Most in a zerg are not and, given enough numbers, do not need to be.

Compare with organized groups who strive to remain disciplined and coordinate on VOIP. Wrong fields and formation issues are mistakes in these kinds of groups rather than a feature.

Another distinguishing feature is that in a zerg, people don’t know what builds others are running while in an organized group, members should know each others builds. I’m talking about beyond just a zerg field commander calling for all warriors to run battle standard, etc.

there most definitely are organized zergs. maybe not in fort aspenwood, but its not even debated whether there actually are or not.

Street Regulator

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: JakHammer.7094

JakHammer.7094

I need to ask a quick stupid question here.

Do WvW Mortar Skills affect/buff the Engineer’s Elite skill Mortar?
Is that Elite skill Mortar of any use in removing siege in enemy Towers, Keeps?

Thanks.

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Kronosfear.7548

Kronosfear.7548

I enjoy spamming nades from walls, or just well behind the zerg fights.

When I play my engie (main), I am able to play the role of the guy who does not want to charge in and die (a stark contrast from my warrior, but that’s another story in another forum).

It’s more of raining pressure on them than anything else, since I can easily and repeatedly unload conditions on the opposing zerg. Switching to my pistol/shield and I can fight in smaller battles and retain the condition pressure that the engineers are (somewhat) good at.

“Conversation enriches the understanding, but solitude is the school of genius.”
- Sir Edward Gibbon

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: MrForz.1953

MrForz.1953

I have spent the majority of my time in large battles just pulling people, rolling ahead of them and Overcharged-Shooting them back at my group.

Disgruntled Charr Engineer and Thief – Jade Quarry.

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Maiden England.3491

Maiden England.3491

I need to ask a quick stupid question here.

Do WvW Mortar Skills affect/buff the Engineer’s Elite skill Mortar?
Is that Elite skill Mortar of any use in removing siege in enemy Towers, Keeps?

Thanks.

thats some good thinking, but the mortar has a much shorter range than arrow carts/ballistas. it has 1400 ranger (1500 if traited). it would just be taken out. plus itd be nearly impossible to hit an arrow cart on the other side of a wall that you cant see, since the mortar uses ground targeting.

Street Regulator

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Soryuju.8164

Soryuju.8164

I’ll speak from my experience with Vindicated Honor (vH), a former T1 guild which was previously ranked in the top 10 in NA.

It’s probably not the answer you want to hear, but the Engineer was the only profession I never saw vH run with in WvW. A lot of what Deniara Devious said above applied to our group: we made regular use of all light and heavy armor classes, with sparing use of Rangers and Thieves, but Engineers seemed to be the black sheep. To reinforce this, the only empty section on our guild forums was the Engineer section. No guides, no builds, no questions about the profession from anyone in the guild.

Now, I’m not going to go so far as to say that the Engineer isn’t viable at that level of play, but I will say that an Engineer’s profession design isn’t well-suited to it. I believe the reason for this has three major components:

1) The Engi’s nature as a “jack-of-all-trades” class
2) Limited access to AoE damage, and the way Retaliation punishes so many of the AoE skills available to the Engi
3) Their lack of a viable elite skill in WvW

Starting with the first point, Engineers are known for their versatility, and this can be of great use in S/TPvP or small group roaming in WvW, where what you’re able to bring to the table is limited by your number of allies. In organized groups, however, this ceases to be a factor. In a group of 20+, you ought to have all of your bases covered: Stability, heavy condition cleansing, CC, combo fields/finishers, AoE condition pressure, boon-stripping, stealth, DPS, etc. This is where the Engineer’s limitations begin to show, unfortunately. The Engineer can provide many of these things compared to what an individual class can (I imagine you could make an Engi build that has all of the things I listed above incorporated), but the scale they can apply these effects on and the efficiency with which they can apply them often doesn’t match up to other classes. Some examples taken from this thread:

-Toss Elixir R: a great skill, but outdone by the Warrior’s Battle Standard. In an AoE meta, downed allies in the radius of the thrown Elixir R are still prone to cleaving ground-targeted effects that comprise most of the damage in a GvG or zerg fight. Elixir R’s advantages over BS are largely overshadowed by BS’s ability to res downed players immediately under AoE pressure. Its shorter cast and recharge times are easily mitigated with good communication and by having multiple Warriors in a group.

-Bombs/Healing Bombs: In order to use bombs offensively, an Engineer would need to be in close with the frontliners. Engineers lack the Warrior’s defensive stats and the Guardian’s active mitigation, and if you take skills that allow for that kind of survival, you’ll sacrifice most of the utility you bring to a group. Even if you do survive without specifically building for it, you’re going to be putting a lot of strain on the people in your group who are trying to keep you alive, and putting too much stress on these players is the best way to cause a wipe.

Bringing along healing bombs is a nice thought, but the majority of healing in a group is going to come from players dropping blast finishers on Water Fields. Your positioning with your bombs is far less flexible than the positioning of these fields and finishers, and your healing is much slower. Whether you choose to be up front with the heavies or in back with the casters, there’s some disadvantage to your group (they either have to work to keep you up, or you lose the offensive potential of the bombs).

Elixir Gun: A single Ele brings almost all of the utility of this kit and does it much better. Higher healing, more condition cleanses that aren’t all limited to small area, and blast finishers that don’t throw you out of position. The EG’s 1 and 2 skills are useless in large groups, so unfortunately, they’re not a factor.

Water Fields: Eles and Rangers already provide plenty of these. The Engi’s water fields are low-duration (the longest being 3 seconds) and don’t provide supplementary effects with nearly the same power.

And so on. Most of the utility the Engi can pack into a support build is outdone by other classes. Meanwhile, their offense is awkward and hampered by the sheer number of players involved in large battles, which brings me to point 2. Engineers don’t have access to a ton of AoE, which is king in WvW, and Retaliation wrecks most of what they do have (Grenades, FT). Unfortunately, this pushes them in the direction of a support role, where they’re forced to compete with Eles and Guardians. An Engi does have a nice range of single-target damage and CC options, but as zerg assassins, they’re handily outdone by Thieves, so an organized group is unlikely to make use of these.

Continued…

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Soryuju.8164

Soryuju.8164

The result is that Gadget utilities are mostly useless to the Engi, the Tool Kit and Bomb Kit are impractical, and the FT/Grenade Kit will kill you faster than you kill anyone else. In terms of basic weapons, the Rifle’s AoE is limited mostly to the autoattack (good luck using Jump Shot), and their Pistols don’t have the range or volume of conditions to have a serious impact. Shield has little offense, and is mostly for personal defense and combo finishers (not saying that it’s bad, but it’s not helping to offset the Engi’s awkward offense).

What’s left to the Engi is Turrets and Elixirs, and Elixirs are mostly a non-factor due to RNG, limited support capabilities (Toss Elixir R being the exception), and the selfish nature of the buffs outside of the toolbelt skills. The design of turrets is directly related to the third major Engi flaw. Since turrets won’t last for a second in zergfights, Supply Crate is hardly better than a Warrior’s Earthshaker. Sad thing is, it’s still the best option, since Elixir X will paint a target on your head and Mortar is worthless in this sort of combat. A class’s Elite skill usually lends them some sort of unique appeal that can make them worthy of bringing along, but the Engineer has none to speak of. Its chance to specialize at something is being squandered.

What should be done?

Trying to change the Engi from being a jack-of-all-trades class would require huge amounts of work, so I would suggest fixing the second and third problems instead. To address the Engi’s offense, change Retaliation to deal back a percentage of all damage dealt, rather than a fixed number per hit. This is not a new suggestion, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see it implemented eventually, but the Engi gets screwed harder by Retal than any other class in WvW. To fix the Engi’s lack of an Elite for these situations, completely redesign Elixir X into anything else. It’s a lazy skill for using other class’s elites instead of contributing to the Engi’s own identity, and even after it’s been buffed repeatedly, I still don’t know of anyone who uses it. I’m not going to make specific suggestions on what to change it to, but there’s no excuse for it to still exist in its current state.

Anyways, those are my thoughts. Hope I didn’t offend any WvW Engis out there who have had success with their builds in zergs, but I’m of the belief that the Engi needs some retooling before it will be able to truly compete with light and heavy armor classes for a spot in an organized group.

(edited by Soryuju.8164)

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Maiden England.3491

Maiden England.3491

I couldn’t have said it better myself Soryuju. I really like playing on engi, but its so outmatched by other classes in a zerg. I still prefer engi for havocing or tPvP

Street Regulator

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

What Soryuju just wrote is very honest, explains a great deal why engineer is hard to play in larger fights, and echos my own observations.

P.S. I’ve been using Elixir X. It is the only really good and reliable access to stability that the engineer has. The least Anet can do is prevent that stability from being stripped while transformed.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

there most definitely are organized zergs. maybe not in fort aspenwood, but its not even debated whether there actually are or not.

Hard to take sweeping statements without well-reasoned explanations seriously. I don’t believe the other guy making a distinction, Deniara Devious, is on Fort Aspenwood either.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

(edited by Chaba.5410)

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: daimonos.9831

daimonos.9831

I use a Grenadier build if I take my engineer zerging. High damage, 1500-range AoE, plus perma-switfness makes for a decent ranged build. I don’t agree that “all the condi damage is outdone by necro”. I agree that retaliation shuts flamethrower down but can’t say I noticed that for grenades.

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: hydeaut.1758

hydeaut.1758

Soryuju hit the point in my opinion, even on full support an engi is outdone by simply combining abilities from a few other classes.

And much of this comes almost as a sideeffect to them, often only using simple weapon-abilities, while also bringing special and often unique support-abilities for boons, stripping boons, CC, walls, . . .

Which unique and usefull zerg-support has the engineer-class?

Even our praised CC is mostly single target and/or condition based “soft” CC. Add the fact that we usually have to sacrifice at least one utility-slot to replace our sucking weapons and supply-crate beeing a waste against zergs (and Mortar everywhere).

The only unique thing I could see for zergs is constant Aoe-pressure through grenades – which is hindered by retaliation, long traveltime of grenades paired with mostly small Aoe-radius (while Necro´s wells and marks hit instantly on full range) and a bad damage-budget spread out on condition and power which gives good damage only with high might-stacks.

(edited by hydeaut.1758)

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Clip.6845

Clip.6845

I use condi grenadier builds > freeze nades to start with: blinds just before we get in melee range, poison when i see a couple of enemies at 50% hp and the bleed ones every time they are off cooldown, never the #1 nades. Ofc mixed with pistol/shield skills and other skills.

In longer zerg fights i tend to focus on 1 enemy at a time, pulling them with toolkit and interrupting them with the shield.

80’s: Engineer/Warrior/Necromancer/Mesmer/Thief/Elementalist/Guardian [Seafarer’s Rest]

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Maiden England.3491

Maiden England.3491

the way i see it, to be good in a zerg, you have to physically help the people around you, either by keeping them alive, giving them might, or what have you. the only exception to this is necros, their job is to apply conditions. engineer can apply conditions, but come on, not nearly as good as necros. all the small cool stuff engi can do is great for small encounters, but truly doesnt make a difference in a zerg, for its the larger picture that matters.

Street Regulator

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: ikiturso.4026

ikiturso.4026

Yup, feeling all the great “fixes” on this class in serious matter GvG. I personally rely on FT, heal turret, boot and aim for rets and aoe heals but as mentioned other classes do them way much better and our combo fields are just bad jokes. Heal turrets waterfield 1-2 seconds is just lame BS! All good things on engi was nerfed (aoe stealth time on bomb, heals on super elixir, heal turret and so on) and given all gimmick stuff for small scale stuff. Playing engi on serious guild and i feel sometimes more of a burden than a member of guild. Please anet start making engineer master of something!!

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: nihasa.5067

nihasa.5067

I’m from SFR and I sometimes run with the zerg. I am PVT bunker so I really do not see any big damage numbers on the screen. I ran a couple of Boom private raids and it was fun.

So what do I do in a zerg?

  • water fields with HT – I tend to see a lack of enough eles in our more or less organized groups. 3-4 seconds water fields may not seem much but I can constantly do it every 20 seconds. And I can blast them twice. It is a good source of healing that I feel it helps my group.
  • fire field – 10 second #4 flamethrower – good for might stacking before a fight. Nothing more to say.
  • scout ahead of the zerg – I tend to have the highest mobility in a zerg (rocket boots and perma swiftness) so I use this to scout and prevent any ninja zerg attack on my group/zerg.
  • charge ahead an try to get some enemy skills on cooldown – 2 sec invulnerability on tool kit and I tend to be able to take a lot of punishment without dying. It helps my zerg by just avoiding all the aoe around me. And if the enemies are trigger frenzy and dish all the good CC/damage skills on me … well they just focused the wrong guy.
  • charge ahead with rocket boots and air blast people from siege – those couple of seconds till they get back can be a fight winner or at least a good gap closer for my group.
  • knockdown all the people in the zerg that do not have stability (slick shoes and rocket boots inside the zerg). This is just trolling but can give that little edge my group needs.
  • when chasing an enemy zerg – charge ahead and FT #1 as many people as I can to prevent them from leaving combat. Box of nails is a good way of giving my group a couple of extra kills.
  • finishing off people to prevent mass rallying – I know I don’t do a lot of damage so I tend to focus on finishing people off (#4 FT). Let the damage dealers focus their attention on something else. I just sit in the back and seal the deal for the ones in downstate.
  • prevent allies from getting stomped – air blast, magnetic shield, static shield and magnet are good for preventing a stomp. And you can pull this with virtual no effort.

And that is kinda of it. Maybe it is not much – but I usually tend to survive any zerg vs zerg encounter. So at least I do not help the mass rallying enemies

Engineer is a troll class so you should play it this way. It is a good moral booster for your group and they love it.

And this is just one build …

Nihasa The Engineer [WvW] Seafarer’s Rest [EU]

(edited by nihasa.5067)

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Brew Pinch.5731

Brew Pinch.5731

Either AoE damage/heals or AoE control are my favourite.

Get yourself a tanky build (PvE damage specs are not your goal in WvW, running zerker/rampager stats is for noobs, seriously, you will get your zerg killed)

For AoE dps/heal:

  • Healing Turret
  • Flamethrower/Nades
  • Knight’s stats for max toughness

For AoE control:

  • dual pistol for glue shot
  • Nades for freeze
  • Bombs for glue bomb
  • Knight’s stats or Soldier’s since your damage isn’t important

Damaging conditions are weak in zergs, they’ll be cleansed instantly, receive -80% duration from food/runes or someone else will have already used conditions on that guy thus you do 0 damage, but AoE control spam is still effective.

Enjoy your bags.

(edited by Brew Pinch.5731)

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: MentalPause.9183

MentalPause.9183

In terms of basic weapons, the Rifle’s AoE is limited mostly to the autoattack (good luck using Jump Shot), and their Pistols don’t have the range or volume of conditions to have a serious impact. Shield has little offense, and is mostly for personal defense and combo finishers (not saying that it’s bad, but it’s not helping to offset the Engi’s awkward offense).

I think this is the fundamental problem, more so than any of our other shortcomings. Being forced to equip one of the combinations of weapons goes a long way in determining our overall effectiveness, perceived or otherwise. Adding another 2 – handed weapon or main hand weapon could go a long way in determining our role in a GvG/ “Organized Zerg” environment. I know that more weapons are apparently on the way, which is a good thing, however I’d like to see some of those weapons directly synergize with some of our kits. A Hammer with mobility and a some sort of protection would go a long way to making Bombs a much more sought after Kit.

For now, and regarding the OP, do your best to provide meaningful contributions while maintaining your own survival. In my case I tend to run a very CC focused build, with Rifle, Bomb Kit, Throw Mine and Slick Shoes. Do your best to either support Water fields by dropping your Healing turret and detonating it, or using the Healing Turret with overcharge to supplement healing when a water field has not been called for. Your best friend is awareness and can go a long way to making useful contributions outside of tagging “reds” in zerg vs zerg. Awareness of downed enemies, awareness of fields to blast in, and awareness of vulnerable targets.

- Oresan

Fort Aspenwood WvW’er
Officer of Bloodwork [RED] http://bloodwork.boards.net/thread/145/interested-joining-red

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: WhiteAndMilky.2514

WhiteAndMilky.2514

Engineers have the highest amount of aoe boon stopping potential. Much more than any necromancer or Mesmer can dish out. Add extreme tankyness on top of this with some really awesome traits, gear shield, shield skills, multiple blast finishers and bomb kit fields…… One of the strongest and most useful classes in the game…. Secret op. don’t tell anyone.

But if you want to do anything other than that… Yeah other classes can dps, etc, better. But engi has best boon strip and disruption.

I play all the things 80. Pew Pew Pew. Killin joor commanders.
4 Warriors, 3 Rangers, 3 Mesmers, 2 Engineers, 2 Guardians, and Necro, Thf, Ele
-Beastygate Beast Milk, OG BG Veteran Native

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: MentalPause.9183

MentalPause.9183

Engineers have the highest amount of aoe boon stopping potential. Much more than any necromancer or Mesmer can dish out. Add extreme tankyness on top of this with some really awesome traits, gear shield, shield skills, multiple blast finishers and bomb kit fields…… One of the strongest and most useful classes in the game…. Secret op. don’t tell anyone.

But if you want to do anything other than that… Yeah other classes can dps, etc, better. But engi has best boon strip and disruption.

Throw Mine is one of the single best boon removal skills in the game, however the other boon removal we have access to is interesting at best. I’ve tried acidic elixirs for this reason, however the application is clunky at best. Mesmer with the shatters remove boons trait and Necros with well of suffering and its pulsing effect are hard to compete with, especially considering the potential number of boons each of those can remove in a short time against a lot of enemies. Don’t get me wrong, with proper Mine Field placement and a bit of luck we can remove a lot of boons as well, however not with the consistency and potential of either of the before mentioned skills. We can however efficiently and effectively apply significant AoE CC pressure to a lot of targets, which is a very large plus to our usefulness.

Fort Aspenwood WvW’er
Officer of Bloodwork [RED] http://bloodwork.boards.net/thread/145/interested-joining-red

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: WhiteAndMilky.2514

WhiteAndMilky.2514

Engineers have the highest amount of aoe boon stopping potential. Much more than any necromancer or Mesmer can dish out. Add extreme tankyness on top of this with some really awesome traits, gear shield, shield skills, multiple blast finishers and bomb kit fields…… One of the strongest and most useful classes in the game…. Secret op. don’t tell anyone.

But if you want to do anything other than that… Yeah other classes can dps, etc, better. But engi has best boon strip and disruption.

Throw Mine is one of the single best boon removal skills in the game, however the other boon removal we have access to is interesting at best. I’ve tried acidic elixirs for this reason, however the application is clunky at best. Mesmer with the shatters remove boons trait and Necros with well of suffering and its pulsing effect are hard to compete with, especially considering the potential number of boons each of those can remove in a short time against a lot of enemies. Don’t get me wrong, with proper Mine Field placement and a bit of luck we can remove a lot of boons as well, however not with the consistency and potential of either of the before mentioned skills. We can however efficiently and effectively apply significant AoE CC pressure to a lot of targets, which is a very large plus to our usefulness.

Not even talkin about the new elixir remove. Purely throw mine and mine field. Able to strip up to 30 boons every 19 or so seconds, without any gadget or tool belt reduction. Fully dependent on n experienced player though. Positioning is vital.

I play all the things 80. Pew Pew Pew. Killin joor commanders.
4 Warriors, 3 Rangers, 3 Mesmers, 2 Engineers, 2 Guardians, and Necro, Thf, Ele
-Beastygate Beast Milk, OG BG Veteran Native

(edited by WhiteAndMilky.2514)

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: ikiturso.4026

ikiturso.4026

minefield interrupt says unblockable. Does it mean u can do that small knock even vs stability? And if it does why isnt this sticky in page 1.

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Maiden England.3491

Maiden England.3491

minefield interrupt says unblockable. Does it mean u can do that small knock even vs stability? And if it does why isnt this sticky in page 1.

unblockable meaning it cannot be blocked by warrior/engi shield skills or aegis.

Street Regulator

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: JudgeD.5673

JudgeD.5673

If I understand correctly, the OP is saying, why use eng in a zerg, because whatever eng does, another class can do better? The best answer I can give according to my experience, is that we can play support but still be tanky if we need to get close in. I run FT (and PVT gear) in zerg fights and tend to survive even those my team wipes on.
FT#2 provides aoe dmg, FT#3 is aoe CC, FT#4 is the the longest fire field in game at present (10 sec), and FT#5 is aoe blind. Yes, retal can be a problem, but I rarely die from it. Use of Elixir Gun and Toolkit gives a aoe retal (which guardian does better and longer), vulnerability, block for trolling, and the mighty Prybar (confusion). Our elite
Supply Crate is essentially a 2 sec stun on a 3 min CD, its true, but have enough engies time their drops, and you’ve got a zerg stunlock. It would be interesting to see what 10 engies in a zerg could do.

The Robertsons – Julie, Lyana, Adrian, and Lewis
CrSy/LaWz
Tarnished Coast Server (formerly of Kaineng)

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: ikiturso.4026

ikiturso.4026

minefield interrupt says unblockable. Does it mean u can do that small knock even vs stability? And if it does why isnt this sticky in page 1.

unblockable meaning it cannot be blocked by warrior/engi shield skills or aegis.

Ah so very much useless bs as most on us.

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Sitkaz.5463

Sitkaz.5463

Flamethrower and grenades are great for zergs. With disorganized zergs (as many are) a flamethrower to the face will scatter people pretty quickly. Well-thrown grenades split up even an organized stack of players. Or place a big bomb and rocket boot yourself out of there.

I guess I’m saying engineers are good at causing chaos, and chaos is one of the best ways to defeat a zerg.

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Razor.9872

Razor.9872

Two words: Boom. Boom. ;D

NSPride <3

Engis Role in a zerg?

in Engineer

Posted by: Singer.8740

Singer.8740

that all sounds great on paper dropper, but have you actually tried using all that in a zerg? all the fields are outdone by eles, all the condi damage is outdone by necro, and you dont need any extra blast finishers when you have 3-5 guardians with hammers. im talking about organized zerg vs zerg. all the small stuff REALLY doesnt make a lick of difference in a zerg. its about the big support the classes have to offer, which i dont see how engi has any of.

So your comparing five guardians with blasts too one engi with the same amount of blasts. This single engi also does water, fire, light and smoke fields compared to a staff ele who has only a fire, water and lightning field. Then you whent and compared the engi to a necro who runs condi’s COMPLETALY different from an engi. necros burst all the conditions on too the five targets and then have to wait through the long cooldowns of there marks/ wells. basically condi spike followed by a period of rest. engis on the other hand apply sustained condi to there targets (9 targets if you run nades. I love ignoring the aoe cap omnomnom.) that is easily reapplied due to short to no cooldowns on the ability’s. to put it simply. necro= lots of condi’s all at once, 5 targets, long condi duration, long well/mark cooldown. engi= sustained condi application and reapplication with high intensity and low cooldown’s (burning, 15 stacks of bleed and vuln is yummy). aaaaand that’s just the tip of the iceberg, but ive made a big enough wall already so mabie another time.

Etheeria (The mad bomber). If you don’t have shellshock your not doing it right.