Guild Wars 2

After this last patch, I’m a bit worried about the use of engis in raids. With the nerf to slick shoes, engis lost some of their best utility for fights and I’m left wondering:

Why would a raid want an engi?

I don’t mean this as some melodramatic, sky-is-falling rhetorically charged question. I’m honestly trying to grasp where engis fit in the raid dynamics now and if there’s any build changes that would make them a better choice.

So, here’s my thoughts.

DPS
Engis seem to still do pretty decent dps and the blowtorch change definitely helped. From the basic testing I did, I was able to hit about 26k. I’m sure it’s possible to hit a bit higher with a perfect rotation, but I wouldn’t expect there to be anything massively better. In comparison, the highest dps builds I’ve seen are thieves and eles, who can break 30k.

While engis aren’t at the top, they’re still definitely not at the bottom and they seem to be relatively competitive and above support oriented builds, such as revs and PS wars.

Also, when I tested power builds, they seem to still be well below what a condi build can do. If anyone can break 26k on a power build, I’d be interested to see what was used and how.

Utility
This one is tough, but here’s the utility I see overall:

Condi damage. Since there’s the VG fight that requires condi damage, I’ll consider this utility.

CC. The knockback from FT is definitely handy for the green circle group in VG and engis can also lock down spirits on gorseval pretty well. However, it’s pretty much just average for breakbars now.

Healing. Healing turret is still a nice thing to have for the water field, if nothing major.

The problem I see with utility is that it’s all relatively average and my big concern is that you can just get all the utility you need from filling your raid with higher dps builds.

Anyways, what does everyone else think? Am I missing anything? Anyone found any builds that fare better?

People are eight-manning raid content. If anyone thinks a few Ks in DPS makes engi no longer worth bringing you need to polish your mechanics.

Phineas Poe.3018:

People are eight-manning raid content. If anyone thinks a few Ks in DPS makes engi no longer worth bringing you need to polish your mechanics.

It’s not a question of “What class do I need to ensure that the boss dies?”

It’s a question of “What’s the most efficient composition that I can bring to make the fight as smooth as possible?”

If you don’t have a large pool of raiders in your guild or if you’re choosing between one guy who’s great at engi vs someone who’s mediocre on condi necro, then yea, you still want the good player.

But when you have the option of bringing someone who can play multiple classes well or if you have several skilled players as options who play different classes, then this definitely matters.

Also, consider that if you’re looking between a condi engi and a thief, it’s more than just a couple k dps. The engi will have to nail a strong rotation with an enemy that doesn’t walk out of fire fields to get around 26k, whereas the thief just autoattacks and dodges a bit to hit 31k, you’re talking about a 16+% difference in damage that only gets greater when mechanics or user error cause the engi dps to suffer a lot more.

If I’m forming a raid group and someone wants to play engi, and I knew they were competent with it, I’d let then play engi.

When discussing raid roles it should come down to whatever class people feel most comfortable with, and not just what is top tier. That’s what makes smooth fights.

Just use bomb kit, stack some quickness and press 1.
Also bulwark gyro and super speed are always welcome in raids.

We aren’t fit for CC duty anymore, our group support was always lacking, and despite requiring insane rotations – that won’t realistically be done in a raid setting – our DPS isn’t even top tier.
There is no reason to use an engineer in raids anymore. If you do, you’re just making it harder for everyone. Just use some other class.

Dahkeus.8243:

The engi will have to nail a strong rotation with an enemy that doesn’t walk out of fire fields to get around 26k, whereas the thief just autoattacks and dodges a bit to hit 31k, you’re talking about a 16+% difference in damage that only gets greater when mechanics or user error cause the engi dps to suffer a lot more.

I hope you’re not basing your entire observation on unrealistic numbers.

Phineas Poe.3018:

If I’m forming a raid group and someone wants to play engi, and I knew they were competent with it, I’d let then play engi.

When discussing raid roles it should come down to whatever class people feel most comfortable with, and not just what is top tier. That’s what makes smooth fights.

i dont think thats the issue here. i think the issue is that there isnt much point in creating an engi just to have it to fit into a group on the chance that some group is looking for an engi, because a group wont be looking for an engi, theyll be looking unspecifically for a condi or maybe a dps. and the other ones are easier to learn.

multiclassing is a thing. but for multiclassers to play the class, the class has to bring something unique that other classes cant cover. without slick shoes, its slim pickins.

insanemaniac.2456:

Phineas Poe.3018:

If I’m forming a raid group and someone wants to play engi, and I knew they were competent with it, I’d let then play engi.

When discussing raid roles it should come down to whatever class people feel most comfortable with, and not just what is top tier. That’s what makes smooth fights.

i dont think thats the issue here. i think the issue is that there isnt much point in creating an engi just to have it to fit into a group on the chance that some group is looking for an engi, because a group wont be looking for an engi, theyll be looking unspecifically for a condi or maybe a dps. and the other ones are easier to learn.

multiclassing is a thing. but for multiclassers to play the class, the class has to bring something unique that other classes cant cover. without slick shoes, its slim pickins.

Are you seriously implying that Slick Shoes was really the contributing factor of whether or not someone would roll engineer? Jfc LOL

First of all, there’s far more to this game than raids. Second of all, the engineer is a viable class in every aspect of the game, including PvP and WvW. If that isn’t motivation enough to make one then nothing will be.

My guild has eight-manned raid bosses and has defeated raid bosses with every single profession in attendance. Stop complaining about who does maximum DPS and just get good.

No one wipes on Gorseval because you took an engineer over an elementalist or a thief. You’re wiping on Gorseval because your raid group sucks.

Krag.6210:

Dahkeus.8243:

The engi will have to nail a strong rotation with an enemy that doesn’t walk out of fire fields to get around 26k, whereas the thief just autoattacks and dodges a bit to hit 31k, you’re talking about a 16+% difference in damage that only gets greater when mechanics or user error cause the engi dps to suffer a lot more.

I hope you’re not basing your entire observation on unrealistic numbers.

I’m basing my observations on the relative difference that can be seen through unrealistic numbers. Sure, you won’t hit 30k due to lack of buffs, boss movement, etc., but that doesn’t really matter since DPS is lowered for both engi and thief when those boons are missing.

And as I stated, the less ideal your encounter is, the farther engi falls from the thief’s numbers since they rely a lot more on pulling off an actual rotation.

Dahkeus.8243:

Krag.6210:

Dahkeus.8243:

The engi will have to nail a strong rotation with an enemy that doesn’t walk out of fire fields to get around 26k, whereas the thief just autoattacks and dodges a bit to hit 31k, you’re talking about a 16+% difference in damage that only gets greater when mechanics or user error cause the engi dps to suffer a lot more.

I hope you’re not basing your entire observation on unrealistic numbers.

I’m basing my observations on the relative difference that can be seen through unrealistic numbers. Sure, you won’t hit 30k due to lack of buffs, boss movement, etc., but that doesn’t really matter since DPS is lowered for both engi and thief when those boons are missing.

And as I stated, the less ideal your encounter is, the farther engi falls from the thief’s numbers since they rely a lot more on pulling off an actual rotation.

You say this like people weren’t easily finishing the raid wings with engineers prior to thief buffs.

Just run whatever class you want to. This thread is nonsense.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Dahkeus.8243:

Krag.6210:

Dahkeus.8243:

The engi will have to nail a strong rotation with an enemy that doesn’t walk out of fire fields to get around 26k, whereas the thief just autoattacks and dodges a bit to hit 31k, you’re talking about a 16+% difference in damage that only gets greater when mechanics or user error cause the engi dps to suffer a lot more.

I hope you’re not basing your entire observation on unrealistic numbers.

I’m basing my observations on the relative difference that can be seen through unrealistic numbers. Sure, you won’t hit 30k due to lack of buffs, boss movement, etc., but that doesn’t really matter since DPS is lowered for both engi and thief when those boons are missing.

And as I stated, the less ideal your encounter is, the farther engi falls from the thief’s numbers since they rely a lot more on pulling off an actual rotation.

You say this like people weren’t easily finishing the raid wings with engineers prior to thief buffs.

Just run whatever class you want to. This thread is nonsense.

Dude…you seriously don’t get it, do you?

Yes, you can clear VG with 5 people, but that doesn’t make it a good idea.

You don’t need a PS war, but groups will always take one over taking something else if they have the choice.

I don’t know how to get this through your head:
This isn’t about what is needed to clear content. This is about what is best to clear content

I know that the engi class is very near and dear to you. I know you’ve refreshed engi forum threads until your fingers bled ever since the early days of GuildWars2Guru being the big serious community.

That doesn’t change the facts. Groups will make the best choices for a smooth run if they have a choice unless they’re trying to prove something or make a video for something.

I’m sorry the reality is not painting engis in a glowing light right now, but that doesn’t make the point of this discussion irrelevant.

Phineas Poe.3018:

insanemaniac.2456:

Phineas Poe.3018:

If I’m forming a raid group and someone wants to play engi, and I knew they were competent with it, I’d let then play engi.

When discussing raid roles it should come down to whatever class people feel most comfortable with, and not just what is top tier. That’s what makes smooth fights.

i dont think thats the issue here. i think the issue is that there isnt much point in creating an engi just to have it to fit into a group on the chance that some group is looking for an engi, because a group wont be looking for an engi, theyll be looking unspecifically for a condi or maybe a dps. and the other ones are easier to learn.

multiclassing is a thing. but for multiclassers to play the class, the class has to bring something unique that other classes cant cover. without slick shoes, its slim pickins.

Are you seriously implying that Slick Shoes was really the contributing factor of whether or not someone would roll engineer? Jfc LOL

First of all, there’s far more to this game than raids. Second of all, the engineer is a viable class in every aspect of the game, including PvP and WvW. If that isn’t motivation enough to make one then nothing will be.

My guild has eight-manned raid bosses and has defeated raid bosses with every single profession in attendance. Stop complaining about who does maximum DPS and just get good.

No one wipes on Gorseval because you took an engineer over an elementalist or a thief. You’re wiping on Gorseval because your raid group sucks.

yeah i am.

ive been pugging raids for the last month because i dont have a group. i ask, which do you guys prefer for condi, reaper or engi? when there wasnt an engi already in a gors group, they asked for engi. when there was already a reaper, people fairly often asked for engi because burning. when they said “play what youre better at”, i just played reaper because its easier and does about the same thing, even though im most likely a better engi than reaper.

if i were to strictly lfg as engi all the time and be super inflexible, yes, i could always find a group and play as only engi. but the thing is, i would wait longer and the groups that would ask me to join them arent necessarily great groups, theyre groups looking for an engi.

when i play with flexibility in mind, i invariably find excellent pug groups where everyone knows their roles and is a good player.

so yes, i would not be surprised if some people rolled an engi up just to have it around for when some gors run is looking for an engi.

however, i am most certainly not talking about guild runs or the experience youve had. maybe if your guild was looking to fill up your group every run with just another dps you might feel choosy about who you take. but obviously you arent looking to have an easier time than you already have. i am. im looking for the easiest possible time, because i dont have a big guild or particularly want to deal with the type of people that often get associated with hardcoring content. and that means i need to diversify in order to have a better chance at joining a group that knows what theyre doing and are just missing 1-2 roles.

insanemaniac.2456:

Phineas Poe.3018:

insanemaniac.2456:

Phineas Poe.3018:

If I’m forming a raid group and someone wants to play engi, and I knew they were competent with it, I’d let then play engi.

When discussing raid roles it should come down to whatever class people feel most comfortable with, and not just what is top tier. That’s what makes smooth fights.

i dont think thats the issue here. i think the issue is that there isnt much point in creating an engi just to have it to fit into a group on the chance that some group is looking for an engi, because a group wont be looking for an engi, theyll be looking unspecifically for a condi or maybe a dps. and the other ones are easier to learn.

multiclassing is a thing. but for multiclassers to play the class, the class has to bring something unique that other classes cant cover. without slick shoes, its slim pickins.

Are you seriously implying that Slick Shoes was really the contributing factor of whether or not someone would roll engineer? Jfc LOL

First of all, there’s far more to this game than raids. Second of all, the engineer is a viable class in every aspect of the game, including PvP and WvW. If that isn’t motivation enough to make one then nothing will be.

My guild has eight-manned raid bosses and has defeated raid bosses with every single profession in attendance. Stop complaining about who does maximum DPS and just get good.

No one wipes on Gorseval because you took an engineer over an elementalist or a thief. You’re wiping on Gorseval because your raid group sucks.

yeah i am.

ive been pugging raids for the last month because i dont have a group. i ask, which do you guys prefer for condi, reaper or engi? when there wasnt an engi already in a gors group, they asked for engi. when there was already a reaper, people fairly often asked for engi because burning. when they said “play what youre better at”, i just played reaper because its easier and does about the same thing, even though im most likely a better engi than reaper.

if i were to strictly lfg as engi all the time and be super inflexible, yes, i could always find a group and play as only engi. but the thing is, i would wait longer and the groups that would ask me to join them arent necessarily great groups, theyre groups looking for an engi.

when i play with flexibility in mind, i invariably find excellent pug groups where everyone knows their roles and is a good player.

so yes, i would not be surprised if some people rolled an engi up just to have it around for when some gors run is looking for an engi.

however, i am most certainly not talking about guild runs or the experience youve had. maybe if your guild was looking to fill up your group every run with just another dps you might feel choosy about who you take. but obviously you arent looking to have an easier time than you already have. i am. im looking for the easiest possible time, because i dont have a big guild or particularly want to deal with the type of people that often get associated with hardcoring content. and that means i need to diversify in order to have a better chance at joining a group that knows what theyre doing and are just missing 1-2 roles.

Ok, now you’re actually touching on some relevant issues…if going a bit into some tangents as well.

It sounds like you’re mentioning burning as a reason to take an engi…and idk, maybe that’s reason enough, at least now that burnzerkers are out of the meta. =P

Dahkeus.8243:

Ok, now you’re actually touching on some relevant issues…if going a bit into some tangents as well.

It sounds like you’re mentioning burning as a reason to take an engi…and idk, maybe that’s reason enough, at least now that burnzerkers are out of the meta. =P

it is a reason, but is more epidemic dps worth someone else learning the most complicated kit build? its not like epidemic doesnt do its job without burning. epidemic is better yes, but encounters arent tuned to require it, especially because all the burning adds is dps.

without a clear unique role that cant be filled by another class, lfgs will gravitate towards whatever does the most dps once the required mechanics are satisfied.

ive pugged all of spirit vale already this week in < 30 min per boss, and the constant between each group is that they just lfg for eles (aka most dps) once they have other roles covered. but as an outsider, the lfg system wouldnt tell me anything about the group comp and just scares off any non-eles who could fit just fine because eles also have important roles to play.

im not complaining, because obviously ive found a way to clear this content somewhat reliably on my own terms, but i have had to adapt in order to do so. and every time i adapt, i play my engis a little less because theyre harder to fit in. and nerfing slick shoes is an even bigger blow to that.

insanemaniac.2456:

Dahkeus.8243:

Ok, now you’re actually touching on some relevant issues…if going a bit into some tangents as well.

It sounds like you’re mentioning burning as a reason to take an engi…and idk, maybe that’s reason enough, at least now that burnzerkers are out of the meta. =P

it is a reason, but is more epidemic dps worth someone else learning the most complicated kit build? its not like epidemic doesnt do its job without burning. epidemic is better yes, but encounters arent tuned to require it, especially because all the burning adds is dps.

without a clear unique role that cant be filled by another class, lfgs will gravitate towards whatever does the most dps once the required mechanics are satisfied.

ive pugged all of spirit vale already this week in < 30 min per boss, and the constant between each group is that they just lfg for eles (aka most dps) once they have other roles covered. but as an outsider, the lfg system wouldnt tell me anything about the group comp and just scares off any non-eles who could fit just fine because eles also have important roles to play.

im not complaining, because obviously ive found a way to clear this content somewhat reliably on my own terms, but i have had to adapt in order to do so. and every time i adapt, i play my engis a little less because theyre harder to fit in. and nerfing slick shoes is an even bigger blow to that.

Yea, I’m not really convinced on burning being that necessary for epidemic to work, but my guild’s just been stacking eles on gorse kills, so we haven’t really relied on epidemic anyways.

Dahkeus.8243:

I know that the engi class is very near and dear to you. I know you’ve refreshed engi forum threads until your fingers bled ever since the early days of GuildWars2Guru being the big serious community.

I’ve actually been playing Black Desert the past two months and considered Guild Wars 2 dead and buried until they actually got their ess together with this quarterly update, but I’m glad to see that you recognize me for the dork I am.

Dahkeus.8243:

That doesn’t change the facts. Groups will make the best choices for a smooth run if they have a choice unless they’re trying to prove something or make a video for something. I’m sorry the reality is not painting engis in a glowing light right now, but that doesn’t make the point of this discussion irrelevant.

For the past 3.5 years engineer has taken its turn being inside and outside of the meta, just like every other profession. It’s a revolving door. No class stays on top forever. Fretting about this is like fretting about the sun going down. It’s the way things go. And if everyone re-rolled a profession every time something dished out more DPS than their currently played class, everyone would have every profession at level 80 in full ascended and geared for raids.

It’s a gigantic investment to raid, both temporally and monetarily. Players can’t just immediately swap from one profession to another just because the wind blows a different direction.

Even swapping your ascended armor between classes of the same tier can be difficult. Engineers wear Viper’s, Rangers wear Magi, and Thieves wear Berserker. I am not sure if you’re the type of player that just has multiple sets of ascended gear just laying around, but I figure the average player values the investment to make full Viper’s gear a lot more than to just drop their profession the moment it stops dealing top DPS.

This is only further compounded by the fact that if you’re not raiding with your engineer, that gear is ultimately useless. Power is substantially stronger than condi in dungeons.

Now I’m not aware of what guild you’re in or what its internal culture is like, but my guild doesn’t discriminate players by what class they bring but by how well they know the fight. If DPS is lacking adjustments can be made, but hitting enrage timers is 99% of the time a mechanics issue and not a comp issue. Besides, it takes a particular kind of asswipe to cut members out of a static raid group just because the meta changed. If that’s really the pressure you’re facing, I suggest you find a better guild.

These raid bosses aren’t tested or designed for a single comp or setup. Every boss to date has been killed with every profession in attendance. This content is tested by players under a pretty rigorous examination with no bias or favoritism to any particular meta. Both wings were designed with a completely separate balance patch in mind.

Phineas Poe.3018 has made some great points. In short – yea, Engi isn’t the best dps, but still nr. 3 in terms of dps. It’s the combination of utility AND damage the Engi offers. That’s why it’s the best fractals profession there is. In Raids you rather want him than a thief. You also rather want a guard than a thief for the protection, don’t you? Meanwhile the thief really has the problem to be unable to offer anything else but damage, where he is outclassed by the ele, easily…

Greez

Xyonon.3987:

best fractals profession

imo engi shared that honor with healy guardian pre hot, but post hot its clearly viper horror reaper, which can essentially take on the role that healy guardian used to have (facetanking so others dont die) in a ranged build entirely focused on dps.

and now, the fractals that i used to relog to power engi for have all been made vulnerable to condi. and arm seals got nerfed (expectedly and reasonably), so i dont feel a need to relog to engi for cliffside either. sneak is still excellent in dredge, but reaper also comes with the ability to stand on a button and remain at nearly full health… in an 80/90.

:P

Phineas…I have no idea what’s gotten you so riled up into your essay responses.

I’m not saying anyone should reroll. My guild would never force anyone to play anything they didn’t want to.

I don’t know how to get this through your head:

This is not about whether you can clear raids with an engi. This is about whether engi does anything better than other classes or has any niche that makes them worth bringing over other classes when all else is equal.

Believe it or not, but there are some people out there who have both a condi engi and another similar class that they like just about as much. There are also people who are trying to decide which of several classes they enjoy will be most worthwhile to invest into for a set of raiding gear.

Xyonon.3987:

Phineas Poe.3018 has made some great points. In short – yea, Engi isn’t the best dps, but still nr. 3 in terms of dps. It’s the combination of utility AND damage the Engi offers. That’s why it’s the best fractals profession there is. In Raids you rather want him than a thief. You also rather want a guard than a thief for the protection, don’t you? Meanwhile the thief really has the problem to be unable to offer anything else but damage, where he is outclassed by the ele, easily…

Greez

Except that most of the time, said utility comes with a cost in dps. Even slick shoes required us to give up a kit, and the effects on dps were noticeable. Not that it will be an issue anymore. Oh, sure, we have fields, we can do things with them. Things that other classes do better, anyway. And in a raid setting you’ve got ample choices – you get to bring other 9 classes beside you, after all.
Engineers weren’t brought for their might, they weren’t brought for their healing capabilities. They weren’t brought for the boons they provided with their elixirs or for the group support they provided with gyros or fields. They weren’t brought for their dps -despite requiring obscene rotation to actually output it, i may add.
Cause all of them were already covered by someone else who did them better.
They were brought merely for CC duties, and now we can’t do that anymore.
If you bring an engineer now, you’re just making it harder for the other people. You could as well leave your place to someone better suited.

Xyonon open my eyes, our group try replace 2 tempests for 2condi engis in salvation pass.
Ressults: sloth 2nd pull (usually 5th)
Trio 1st pull
Mathias 1st pull(usually 10th, this one should be luck, i will try edit next try)
Sabetha: 4x temp no engi (6th pull), next day 3x temp 1x engi (6th pull-same party)

We will continue to monitoring this. Engi bring really good utility with not cost of dps(healing turret, blinding mobs, condi clear) we still use only 1 engi on gorsy because staff temp is really good there.

It is not about dps, it is about kill the boss :-)

@Manuhell
I believe your team comp is always 1 rev, 1 druid, 1 war, 1 chrono and 6 tempests then? :P Only pugs brought engis for cc only … we shine because of the COMBINATION of dps and utility. For the EG, protection, cc, blind, pull n’ push, etc. A good engi is gold, a bad one be better replaced by a guard or ele tough.

@David
If you fight Sloth you’ll be better off with power Scrappers unless you have many Necros with epidemic, but even then 1 is enough. For Trio power makes much more sense too, since the condi Engis aoe rather stinks. You can also do the mortars within 1-2s as power Scrapper. At Matt I’d go for power aswell so you can take Bulwark for reflect and damage absorb. Final Salvo is amazing there too.

It’s true that it’s all about killing the boss. But in the end you want the fastest way, the way that may be harder but faster if you master it!

Xyonon.3987:

@Manuhell
I believe your team comp is always 1 rev, 1 druid, 1 war, 1 chrono and 6 tempests then? :P Only pugs brought engis for cc only … we shine because of the COMBINATION of dps and utility. For the EG, protection, cc, blind, pull n’ push, etc. A good engi is gold, a bad one be better replaced by a guard or ele tough.

What “combination of dps and utility” are you talking about?
First of all, let’s separate theory from practice. Sure, our theoretical dps is good. But how many people do you think will actually achieve our theoretical dps in a raid setting? Enemies aren’t sitting ducks, and there are mechanics to follow. That napalm won’t ever do its full damage on a moving enemy, for example, being a thin slice of fire.
And when you’ve got to bring vale guardian away, that fire bomb won’t deal its full damage. And most of our skill are like that.
Then, utility. First of all, we’re horribly dependant on our utility slots, more than any other class. Anything that requires us to give up some kit means a dps loss already. And when other classes can easily offer both dps and group support, that alone makes us a second choice. Unless there are reasons to do so – like slick shoes for CC duty. But that’s in the past.
You mention the elixir gun. Fine, that’s already something a condition build won’t use, since it loses dps in doing so. A power build use it and benefit from acid bomb, though. You’ve got some regen and fumigate, and that’s it. Theoretically you could use super elixir to heal a bit, but given that combo work on the oldest initiator, and super elixir is awfully long, either you end ruining combos for everyone else or you just won’t stay in there enough to have some tangible benefit. And while fumigate is nice to heal conditions, you would also need for the people affected to be conveniently huddled together to actually hit them. I’ve rarely seen it happen, in practice. Other classes (or even our healing turret) often clear conditions in a radius, without having to aim anything, and that works quite better.
Protection. The only skill that reliably gives it is Reconstruction Field, and that means you aren’t using healing turret for area heal/condition cleanse. But sure, if people stay in a 300 radius around its source for all its duration (since it’s a pulsing field) they do get some good protection. In theory, at least. Meanwhile, other classes press a button and they give protection instantly and in a larger radius, and they’re done with it.
CC. The only outlier was slick shoes, and now they’re useless. We don’t have any particularly strong CC in our kits (Big Ol’ Bomb would be an exception, but the 3s delay makes it worthless) and the ones that aren’t kits still aren’t good enough to take the place of a kit (since they mean a dps loss).
Blind. Bosses have got defiance, so it’s useless for the most part. May work on some minion if they’re near enough, but that’s it. It isn’t like we’re aiming for those, anyway (and if we do, it’s a dps loss).
Pull and push. Again, others pull better than us (and it isn’t difficult, since our pull is single targeted). We’ve got air blast that’s nice for knocking back seekers, and that’s it. But then, other classes could just slow them down or immobilize them with other means, it isn’t like we aren’t easily replaceable.
Etc. Group boons? Better done by others. Stat bonuses to nearby allies via traits? We haven’t got them. Other types of buffs? We’ve got to use kits for dps, but even if we didn’t, our choices aren’t good either. The only one of that kind would be the bulwark gyro…that by absorbing damage gets weaker the more allies it has to protect, since its hp are the same either way. Issue that banners or spirits don’t have, anyway.
A good engi may be gold, you say. Well, i guess the issue is that good other classes are platinum then…and with a quarter of the effort required.

Manuhell.2759:

A good engi may be gold, you say. Well, i guess the issue is that good other classes are platinum then…and with a quarter of the effort required.

having finally seriously tried a couple other classes, this is the primary issue. it was so easy to pick up necro. im a kitten y rev. im a decent ranger in pvp. i can do ok on guard and ele. all with so little effort.

perhaps venom share thief can take over cc duty. they prolly dont do much less dps than an engi with slick shoes… cuz theres no opportunity cost of giving up big dps to take cc.

insanemaniac.2456:

Manuhell.2759:

A good engi may be gold, you say. Well, i guess the issue is that good other classes are platinum then…and with a quarter of the effort required.

having finally seriously tried a couple other classes, this is the primary issue. it was so easy to pick up necro. im a kitten y rev. im a decent ranger in pvp. i can do ok on guard and ele. all with so little effort.

perhaps venom share thief can take over cc duty. they prolly dont do much less dps than an engi with slick shoes… cuz theres no opportunity cost of giving up big dps to take cc.

I think CC won’t just be a 1 person job anymore, which makes sense since it never was supposed to be this.

Venom share is good against break bars, but the dps is pretty terrible.

However, between a rev and a power daredevil, you should be plenty of breakbar down and the thief will bring a ton of DPS, even on messy fights.

Dahkeus.8243:

Phineas…I have no idea what’s gotten you so riled up into your essay responses.

I’m not saying anyone should reroll. My guild would never force anyone to play anything they didn’t want to.

“Riled up?” I don’t think I’m being particularly passionate about anything. If anything I’ve been the most dispassionate person in this discussion. For real, you wrote in your own OP:

Dahkeus.8243:

After this last patch, I’m a bit worried about the use of engis in raids. With the nerf to slick shoes, engis lost some of their best utility for fights and I’m left wondering:
Why would a raid want an engi?

The amount of doom and gloom in this thread is unbelievably hilarious. People were clearing wing one with 3+ engis long before anyone even thought to bring Slick Shoes. And our damage hasn’t been nerfed since then. It’s been buffed.

Dahkeus.8243:

This is not about whether you can clear raids with an engi. This is about whether engi does anything better than other classes or has any niche that makes them worth bringing over other classes when all else is equal.

Again, this just returns to my original question: did people seriously bring engineers in their raids just for Slick Shoes? A well played engineer deals top-tier condition damage. And this patch hasn’t changed that.

Obviously that’s testing vs. the golem and not against bosses where epidemic is more useful, but the concern that others share here that they might somehow be threatening their raid’s success by taking their engineer over a necromancer is ridiculous (unless they’re just not very good at it, but that’s a separate issue).

Phineas Poe.3018:

Dahkeus.8243:

This is not about whether you can clear raids with an engi. This is about whether engi does anything better than other classes or has any niche that makes them worth bringing over other classes when all else is equal.

And again, this just returns to my original question: did people seriously bring engineers in their raids just for Slick Shoes? A well played engineer deals top-tier condition damage. And this patch hasn’t changed that.

Obviously that’s testing vs. the golem and not against bosses where epidemic is more useful, but the concern that others share here that they might somehow be threatening their raid’s success by taking their engineer over a necromancer is ridiculous (unless they’re just not very good at it, but that’s a separate issue).

yes, they seriously did.

i suggest you occasionally pug raids. first, teaching and carrying scrubs is more challenging than 8 manning with capable people. second, youll get a better picture of how leaders form their groups when they cant count on people being anything but idiots.

insanemaniac.2456:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Dahkeus.8243:

This is not about whether you can clear raids with an engi. This is about whether engi does anything better than other classes or has any niche that makes them worth bringing over other classes when all else is equal.

And again, this just returns to my original question: did people seriously bring engineers in their raids just for Slick Shoes? A well played engineer deals top-tier condition damage. And this patch hasn’t changed that.

Obviously that’s testing vs. the golem and not against bosses where epidemic is more useful, but the concern that others share here that they might somehow be threatening their raid’s success by taking their engineer over a necromancer is ridiculous (unless they’re just not very good at it, but that’s a separate issue).

yes, they seriously did.

i suggest you occasionally pug raids. first, teaching and carrying scrubs is more challenging than 8 manning with capable people. second, youll get a better picture of how leaders form their groups when they cant count on people being anything but idiots.

Why should I waste my time teaching people that aren’t in my guild? I will never see them again. That sounds like an absolutely aggravating experience, and the suggestion that engineer has fallen from favor because of how pug raids work is like implying Metabattle should structure their PvP builds only around solo queue.

I really think you should try and join a larger and more active guild. Less salt that way about class bias, for one.

Phineas Poe.3018:

insanemaniac.2456:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Dahkeus.8243:

This is not about whether you can clear raids with an engi. This is about whether engi does anything better than other classes or has any niche that makes them worth bringing over other classes when all else is equal.

And again, this just returns to my original question: did people seriously bring engineers in their raids just for Slick Shoes? A well played engineer deals top-tier condition damage. And this patch hasn’t changed that.

Obviously that’s testing vs. the golem and not against bosses where epidemic is more useful, but the concern that others share here that they might somehow be threatening their raid’s success by taking their engineer over a necromancer is ridiculous (unless they’re just not very good at it, but that’s a separate issue).

yes, they seriously did.

i suggest you occasionally pug raids. first, teaching and carrying scrubs is more challenging than 8 manning with capable people. second, youll get a better picture of how leaders form their groups when they cant count on people being anything but idiots.

Why should I waste my time teaching people that aren’t in my guild? I will never see them again. That sounds like an absolutely aggravating experience, and the suggestion that engineer has fallen from favor because of how pug raids work is like implying Metabattle should structure their PvP builds only around solo queue.

I really think you should try and join a larger and more active guild. Less salt that way about class bias, for one.

ive already said why i dont want to. ive adapted and grown instead. that isnt salt. why would i waste time looking for a guild when i can just pug it?

have you even looked at metabattles pvp section? everything you see in high level solo queue is either directly lifted (when a player is on a nonmain) or a close variant (mains), because the builds are superior. and yes, i can speak about high level solo queue, because i ground to legendary and played a little more and matchmaking was such that all the esl players get matched against whoever happens to be in queue and it doesnt matter what my level of play was, half my legendary games were with/against those people.

its as if youre using your guild to shelter yourself from reality. yes engi is fine/viable/good/whatever, but it isnt the best at anything (any more), and thats what people look for.

Phineas…I still don’t even know where to start with you. I asked a straight forward, legitimate question, so I don’t even know where you started getting “doom and gloom” from. You’ve actually answered some of that in some of the most round about essay replies I’ve seen on these forums, so thanks at least for that.

And yes, slick shoes was a major consideration for raid leaders as a slick shoes engi basically meant that you could insta-break gorseval while only relying on one person. I shouldn’t have to say this, but considering your previous replies, I will just because I can pretty much anticipate your response if I don’t put this here:

Yes, you didn’t need slick shoes, but it was so much more efficient for a raid group to have 1 engi handle the break bar that it made the fight smoother and allowed for other people to focus on other areas. It wasn’t technically necessary, but shoes aren’t technically necessary either when you can duct tape blocks of wood to the bottoms of your feet. =P

insanemaniac.2456:

its as if youre using your guild to shelter yourself from reality.

The reality of … what? Clearing raids just as easily as we always have? No longer swapping out a single utility in a single boss battle?

Crushing.

Best of luck with your pug groups, either way.

Dahkeus.8243:

only relying on one person

this is really important. i cant stress enough how important this part is. when youre running with a bunch of people you dont know, the worst case scenario is a situation in which you need to rely on the entire group to pass. diagnosing the problem when an issue arises becomes 100x harder.

when there are 10 people and everyone needs to use 2 or 3 ccs, yes, if the players are all good and you fail the check once and say “guys use cc”, you wont have the issue again probably. but you dont know whether to point at your reaper for not using shroud 3/5, your eles for not using gust, if your warrior used his headbutt at a bad time, if your guard whiffed his bane signet on accident, etc.

but if the same problem can be handled by 1 person, and that one person fails, then the group can immediately diagnose the issue without having to wonder who is responsible, and that person can rectify the situation or, you know, get kicked (but generally that wont happen as long as youre communicative and show effort to do better).

this is why you can come from a big guild be utterly clueless of a role that has been developed in order to shift the responsibility of the group onto a single person. its just a different solution to the same problem, and it works at the level where everyone is in it for themselves instead of being in it for a guild.

Dahkeus.8243:

insanemaniac.2456:

Manuhell.2759:

A good engi may be gold, you say. Well, i guess the issue is that good other classes are platinum then…and with a quarter of the effort required.

having finally seriously tried a couple other classes, this is the primary issue. it was so easy to pick up necro. im a kitten y rev. im a decent ranger in pvp. i can do ok on guard and ele. all with so little effort.

perhaps venom share thief can take over cc duty. they prolly dont do much less dps than an engi with slick shoes… cuz theres no opportunity cost of giving up big dps to take cc.

I think CC won’t just be a 1 person job anymore, which makes sense since it never was supposed to be this.

Venom share is good against break bars, but the dps is pretty terrible.

However, between a rev and a power daredevil, you should be plenty of breakbar down and the thief will bring a ton of DPS, even on messy fights.

here is a test. looks like its time to move my gear. venom share doesnt even need to give up a huge part of its dps to take its cc.

insanemaniac.2456:

Dahkeus.8243:

insanemaniac.2456:

Manuhell.2759:

A good engi may be gold, you say. Well, i guess the issue is that good other classes are platinum then…and with a quarter of the effort required.

having finally seriously tried a couple other classes, this is the primary issue. it was so easy to pick up necro. im a kitten y rev. im a decent ranger in pvp. i can do ok on guard and ele. all with so little effort.

perhaps venom share thief can take over cc duty. they prolly dont do much less dps than an engi with slick shoes… cuz theres no opportunity cost of giving up big dps to take cc.

I think CC won’t just be a 1 person job anymore, which makes sense since it never was supposed to be this.

Venom share is good against break bars, but the dps is pretty terrible.

However, between a rev and a power daredevil, you should be plenty of breakbar down and the thief will bring a ton of DPS, even on messy fights.

here is a test. looks like its time to move my gear. venom share doesnt even need to give up a huge part of its dps to take its cc.

Well, before you start anything as radical as that, consider the following:

• This vid was on a moving target, which gave max benefit to torment. Engi doesn’t rely on this.
• Thief still has terrible cleave and won’t compare to engi on moving fights.
• Thief won’t provide burning for epi if you run a necro in your group.
• Thief also won’t be able to fill a ranged role for something like green circles on VG.

Condi thief does have some advantages, but it doesn’t beat out everything an engi does. On some fights, the engi will be better, on others the thief will be better.

I definitely wouldn’t suggest rerolling to condi thief unless it just sounds really fun to you. If you’re 100% about min-maxing, you could just craft some condi daggers so that you could swap between engi and thief, depending on the fight and needs of the group.

Dahkeus.8243:

insanemaniac.2456:

Dahkeus.8243:

insanemaniac.2456:

Manuhell.2759:

A good engi may be gold, you say. Well, i guess the issue is that good other classes are platinum then…and with a quarter of the effort required.

having finally seriously tried a couple other classes, this is the primary issue. it was so easy to pick up necro. im a kitten y rev. im a decent ranger in pvp. i can do ok on guard and ele. all with so little effort.

perhaps venom share thief can take over cc duty. they prolly dont do much less dps than an engi with slick shoes… cuz theres no opportunity cost of giving up big dps to take cc.

I think CC won’t just be a 1 person job anymore, which makes sense since it never was supposed to be this.

Venom share is good against break bars, but the dps is pretty terrible.

However, between a rev and a power daredevil, you should be plenty of breakbar down and the thief will bring a ton of DPS, even on messy fights.

here is a test. looks like its time to move my gear. venom share doesnt even need to give up a huge part of its dps to take its cc.

Well, before you start anything as radical as that, consider the following:

• This vid was on a moving target, which gave max benefit to torment. Engi doesn’t rely on this.
• Thief still has terrible cleave and won’t compare to engi on moving fights.
• Thief won’t provide burning for epi if you run a necro in your group.
• Thief also won’t be able to fill a ranged role for something like green circles on VG.

Condi thief does have some advantages, but it doesn’t beat out everything an engi does. On some fights, the engi will be better, on others the thief will be better.

I definitely wouldn’t suggest rerolling to condi thief unless it just sounds really fun to you. If you’re 100% about min-maxing, you could just craft some condi daggers so that you could swap between engi and thief, depending on the fight and needs of the group.

i have 17 toons. it isnt radical to acquire a single dagger (i have a chest and a spare) and move a (spare) set from 1 medium to another. :P

thief provides mainly torment and longer poisons for epi. its not as bursty, but it is in condis that necro isnt constantly capping out, so it adds good damage. at gors, the adds will be moving, at sloth… not so much. it certainly wont be as good as engi at vg, but for me personally that doesnt matter — i can just log to necro and have an easier time, which i typically do anyways.

idk how you can say thief wont compare on moving fights when a boss will just walk out of the engis fire while a thief autoattacks. is that a typo?

i realize what the video is, and that hes got full buffs (including alacrity)… but then you do a full buff test with an engi against a favorable target and you get similar numbers as you would if venom share could work within the confines of the test, and you ask “what did the thief do different?” “well.. he autoed and dodged.” it takes a little presence of mind to put your venom damage where you want it to be instead of on adds, but so far raiding is mostly single target stuff anyways with adds just dying to cleave.

so yes, i think venom share can easily take over the role slick shoes played. the build looks fine.