Guild Wars 2

This is a Thread for ppls opinion on skills.
So just give YOUR opinion and let other ppl give THEIR opinion.
There is no reason to argue over who’s OPINION is more right.

imo.
RNG isn’t fair and it isn’t strategic and just adds more frustration to an already frustrating profession.
To me RNG is another penalty our profession receives.
Just how Rocket Boots and Overcharge self stun to…keep the skills balanced I am guessing!?
So the Toss Elixir effects must be so good that they require a penalty of being random.

I’m convinced that the number of effects one must remember and try to combine is a source of the difficulty in playing an Engineer (next to the nerfs). In an ordinary game of skill like chess, there is symmetry between players in the moves they have to remember. There isn’t the case in chess where one player has more different kinds of pieces than the other player. In GW2, it seems that the Engineer has many more kinds of pieces than other players so it takes more mental skill to calculate the possibilities. Maybe this is what is meant as “versatile”.

Chaba.5410:

I’m convinced that the number of effects one must remember and try to combine is a source of the difficulty in playing an Engineer (next to the nerfs). In an ordinary game of skill like chess, there is symmetry between players in the moves they have to remember. There isn’t the case in chess where one player has more different kinds of pieces than the other player. In GW2, it seems that the Engineer has many more kinds of pieces than other players so it takes more mental skill to calculate the possibilities. Maybe this is what is meant as “versatile”.

I understand your analogy and where you’re going with it, but to me it seems more like Engs can’t even be sure of what pieces they do have. On one turn it’s a rook, and then next turn it shifts into a pawn, making in-depth play/strategy implausible on their part.

Maskaganda.2043:

I’m not missing the point at all. I know what I use the tosses for and I have good results with them. You said it yourself, toss S is a good skill to stomp (and revive too) and an ok skill to escape. What more do you want?

We want the skills to be good all of the time like most skills rather than good 50% of the time.

Chaba.5410:

I’m convinced that the number of effects one must remember and try to combine is a source of the difficulty in playing an Engineer (next to the nerfs). In an ordinary game of skill like chess, there is symmetry between players in the moves they have to remember. There isn’t the case in chess where one player has more different kinds of pieces than the other player. In GW2, it seems that the Engineer has many more kinds of pieces than other players so it takes more mental skill to calculate the possibilities. Maybe this is what is meant as “versatile”.

If being versatile means you have to rely on RNG > skill, then nobody wants to be versatile.

interpol.2397:

I understand your analogy and where you’re going with it, but to me it seems more like Engs can’t even be sure of what pieces they do have. On one turn it’s a rook, and then next turn it shifts into a pawn, making in-depth play/strategy implausible on their part.

I hate to sound sarcastic. It is not intended. The piece is reliably a rook/pawn. Toss Elixir S will always result in Stealth or Stability. As the number of possible outcomes increases, the planning of strategy does become implausible. We don’t have any random skill that results in 10 different possible effects, thank goodness. My personal experience has been that the randomness is not such a big deal because one can plan ahead for one of the two or three possible effects. It’s just more complex, a complexity which other professions do not really face.

To me, versatile should me that with one skill, there is a hole host of things you can do. That might mean it’s like a kit where you actually have multiple skills in one. It could also mean it’s like my jump shot example (ignoring all debate on how good it is). Multiple uses in one skill. It could also be the Toss Elixir H suggestion someone earlier gave (Aka, a skill that bends to the situation naturally, so you don’t have to).

Those are how you do versatility.

Yeah, the only issue with elixirs that prevents me from using some of them is the randomness. It would be nice to see some more reliability in what types of boons we will get. I do like the idea of having specific boons given when your hp is at a certain %. As for stealth or stability, I don’t use that elixir often so I have no opinion on that but since it is a 50/50 chance, I suppose maybe leave it as is?

Also, the mortar elite skill needs to have a longer range than grenades. I end up never using the mortar because my grenades can do so much more.

RNG isnt fun. Thats all what I wanna say.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

It’s the annoyingness of it. If this skill ONLY gave stability, I’d be okay with the fact that it probably won’t get me out of battle. At least I know what it will do. That’s really it. Good skills are skills that have consistent and useful effects. The reason Toss Elixir S is passable is because it has the second part of that statement. It’s useful, not consistent.

Like I said, it is consistent for downing opponents and reviving friendlies. It’s also consistent when you fight heavy cc classes. You can also trait all tosses to give you might and cleanse conditions.
Then you have that other part when you blew all your cooldowns and just want to escape before dieing and use toss S as a last effort. That’s not the primary function of the skill, not the way I see it.

Elixir tosses work fine, especially in a full alchemy build, I think most of you complaining haven’t tried to play an alchemy build or are just theorycrafting and don’t get it how it actually works in the field. It doesn’t matter if it’s random as long as it stacks with stuff you already have and is traited for hgh/409.

The only problem I see with them is their small radius which makes very very hard to share boons with allies in any situation other than dungeon pve.

Maskaganda.2043:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

It’s the annoyingness of it. If this skill ONLY gave stability, I’d be okay with the fact that it probably won’t get me out of battle. At least I know what it will do. That’s really it. Good skills are skills that have consistent and useful effects. The reason Toss Elixir S is passable is because it has the second part of that statement. It’s useful, not consistent.

Like I said, it is consistent for downing opponents and reviving friendlies. It’s also consistent when you fight heavy cc classes. You can also trait all tosses to give you might and cleanse conditions.
Then you have that other part when you blew all your cooldowns and just want to escape before dieing and use toss S as a last effort. That’s not the primary function of the skill, not the way I see it.

Elixir tosses work fine, especially in a full alchemy build, I think most of you complaining haven’t tried to play an alchemy build or are just theorycrafting and don’t get it how it actually works in the field. It doesn’t matter if it’s random as long as it stacks with stuff you already have and is traited for hgh/409.

The only problem I see with them is their small radius which makes very very hard to share boons with allies in any situation other than dungeon pve.

Yeah I am sure you are the ONLY Engineer who has ever tried an Elixir build, which is why you know more about them then everyone else.
I am fine with your opinion that the RNG effect of Elixirs seems good to you and gratz on finding ways to have fun with them.
But don’t insult other ppl by claiming they aren’t experienced enough to have their own opposite opinion.

RNG is just like the chess reference someone else used.
Think if you want to take an opponent’s piece but everytime you move your piece will randomly be a Rook/Pawn/Knight. You cannot plan a strategy at all, one piece you will have to be in the same row, the other diagonal and the last like that L piece from Tetris. So whether you take the piece or not will be entirely luck.

Except the game is nothing like chess now is it? That’s the problem with analogies, you can adapt them to your rethoric without much effort. I’m sure if you needed to stomp pieces in chess stability or stealth would come very handy regardless of which one you got.

I’m not just saying elixirs work fine for me, I’m saying for the most part the randomness is ilusory.
this is the way I see it:
elixir H will give you a defensive boon, toss H will further extend this defensive capability. Toss elixir H will actually give you 2 random boons, one of very short duration, another one in the longer tooltip duration.
toss elixir B will always give you an offensive boon further extending elixr B’s capabilities.
toss U will always give you a combo field and will always be good in a ranged fight
toss S is always good for stomps and revives and somehwat good for escaping
toss C will further improve elixir C and give u an extra condition removal

if you combine tosses with the 20% increase in duration from potent elixirs, 30% boon duration from the trait tree, HGH/409, you’ll find that randomness just isn’t a problem. At least I don’t.

and I don’t see what prevents you from planning ahead either

I gotta trow my agreement down here with Maskaganda when I run an Elixir build! When that is said, I would still prefer my Elixir S to all ways give stealth, since the only time I wish for Stability is when I’m about to stomp a guardian!
When you run with HGH and 409, your toss elixir give’s one Might stack and remove one condition no matter what, and as he say, the random effect serve’s the same purpose.

Maskaganda.2043:

I really hope they don’t change anything with the elixirs, except maybe for elixir X. I’m having alot of success with them, would hate for it to be changed just because it seems too random for some people who don’t even use them.

Ever consider the possibility that you can be even more successful with more definite outcome of thrown elixirs?

I’ve seen your play and I can’t help wondering if you could be given on-demand stability, stealth or wall of reflections, you’d have ended many of those fights quicker.

Sure, your build would be tweaked somewhat, but pretty sure a player your level will come up with something even better with less random elixir effects.

I can imagine you tearing those opponents in your videos a bigger one, but those are just my thoughts.

Like you, I’m a very dedicated engineer with a lot of success with current state of elixirs in all 3 aspects of the game (WvW, SPvP, PvE). But I’m fairly certain I can do more if I am given better tools – in my opinion, reliable applications of on-demand boons.

=)

Sure, if I had the same choices with same durations we have atm but on demand instead of random it would be much better. It would also be insanely op.
Take a look at toss elixir S, when traited it gives you 5 seconds of aoe stealth or 7 and a half seconds of stability, if I’m not mistaken. It may also cleanse conditions and/or give you might. Now compare it to Mesmer’s elite skill Mass Invisibility. 5 seconds, aoe, 90 second cooldown. To be fair it has a much larger radius and you can also trait it for 1 second longer duration and a random boon. I’m comparing both to demonstrate what we get to compensate for randomness, I mean… 15 seconds regeneration, retaliation, fury, 45 seconds might, you know it.
I’m sure that if the devs change the tosses somewhat to remove randomness, we can kiss the long duration stacks goodbye. Can’t have it both ways and it works fine right now, why change it !

Maskaganda.2043:

Sure, if I had the same choices with same durations we have atm but on demand instead of random it would be much better. It would also be insanely op.
Take a look at toss elixir S, when traited it gives you 5 seconds of aoe stealth or 7 and a half seconds of stability, if I’m not mistaken. It may also cleanse conditions and/or give you might. Now compare it to Mesmer’s elite skill Mass Invisibility. 5 seconds, aoe, 90 second cooldown. To be fair it has a much larger radius and you can also trait it for 1 second longer duration and a random boon. I’m comparing both to demonstrate what we get to compensate for randomness, I mean… 15 seconds regeneration, retaliation, fury, 45 seconds might, you know it.
I’m sure that if the devs change the tosses somewhat to remove randomness, we can kiss the long duration stacks goodbye. Can’t have it both ways and it works fine right now, why change it !

Part of the issue is it’s only good in a elixir build. You pushed the effect to be good regardless of the rng . I.e. RNG is fine if the outcome is really good or great but it’s terrible if the outcome is only useful to start. Unfortunately engineers lack good stun breaks and condition removal outside of elixirs. I can understand why you hesitate to see a change because elixir builds are in a good spot, but it would be nice if they were useful all the time regardless of being an elixir build.

@Maskaganda

If we have to keep the random effect, at least make it stronger.

How many time, like TGA, did I get random kitten by Elixir S toolbet, getting stability over stealth. Each time it happens I know I couldn’t do anything about it, it was just a RNG throw.

Like Elexir X, I got a random chance of getting ether tornado or rampage. Both other classe Elite. For the same result then them, I might get an elite that is no use in that situation.

If I attack a group, I want tornado. If I solo someone, I don’t mind ether one. But getting rampage when you attack a group, is asking to die.

If I have to put up with randomness, I want to have a better effect.

Or Just remove RNG and give us the solution someone posted previously.

Throw elixir S
60% hp and more → Stability
59% hp and less → Stealth

At least you know what you’ll get.

I think we’ll just have to agree that folks disagree. I rather like the chaos an engi tossing elixers brings to combat. And it’s not like ANet sold you a pig in a poke and provided consistent Elixers and then changed em.

You know what I think would be great about Elixers? If I could just think, “Right now I could really use a smoke screen for the blind.”, and Luck would read my mind and I got exactly what I wanted right then. “Could really use stability!” Poof “Time to get Protection!” Bang (Ok. That one’s just Drink B.) Yeah. That would be neat. Also neat is getting those wishes granted about 1/3rd of the time.

Let me put it this way, and I think we can all agree on this.

When we fail, we want it to be OUR fault. Nothing is worse than joining a team and being the only good player, thus losing because everyone else sucked. It’s awful. This is the same thing here. We’re randomly getting an effect (Previous example, a team) and sometimes it works out, and sometimes it doesn’t. It’s awful when it doesn’t work out because it wasn’t our fault we lost. It’s simply not fair. When we look back on what we could have done, we don’t want to know that the answer was nothing. A game which goal is to be fun should be fair.

Sure, if I had the same choices with same durations we have atm but on demand instead of random it would be much better. It would also be insanely op.

How? Is might + stability + condition removal on a 60 second recharge OP? The throw is only one stack of might. Stability is only 4 seconds. Compare it to the guardian skill “Save Yourselves” which gives the guardian 10 seconds of pretty much every boon in the game and transfers all conditions from allies to himself, which are easy to remove on guardian. Not to mention, it breaks stun and has no cast time. I can assure you , it’s not overpowered in the slightest.

It’s this fear that holds back the engineer. Some people still think we’re in GW1. In GW1, this might be OP, but now, we’re all titans of combat. We can kill people ALONE in under a second. That’s considered fair in this game. Mesmers can portal people radar range. That kinda stuff got nerfed like crazy in GW1. It’s fair in this game. We need to be on THAT level if we want to be good. Throw out your old notions of what is OP. they’re wrong.

You know what I think would be great about Elixers? If I could just think, “Right now I could really use a smoke screen for the blind.”, and Luck would read my mind and I got exactly what I wanted right then. “Could really use stability!” Poof “Time to get Protection!” Bang (Ok. That one’s just Drink B.) Yeah. That would be neat. Also neat is getting those wishes granted about 1/3rd of the time.

Know what happens when I want super elixir at my feet? poof! It’s there. Guess what, that wish gets granted 100% of the time.

Maskaganda.2043:

Sure, if I had the same choices with same durations we have atm but on demand instead of random it would be much better. It would also be insanely op.

So right now when you get lucky and get the boon you want with an Elixir you are insanely OP?

I don’t see any Elixir effect we have that makes us OP at all. I think the theorycrafting was done on Anet’s side. You can’t justify the RNG because if fully traited Elixirs give might and condition removal. You really can’t justify any skill being weaker or penalized because if fully traited its okay, that just makes the skill mediocre to everyone else who doesnt go fully into Alchemy.

imo the RNG needs to be replaced with a different, more strategic mechanic.

I also feel like given other professions ability to quickly cover ground so easily that our Jump Shot and/or Rocket Boots skills need to be rethought and made to work more smoothly.
Static Discharge needs to be made to so it fires the same no matter which type of skill you are using.
Overall I think most of Engineer skills are excellent and we are probally one of the most balanced professions in the game. The real work needs to be done in the Trait tree.

Maskaganda.2043:

Except the game is nothing like chess now is it? That’s the problem with analogies, you can adapt them to your rethoric without much effort. I’m sure if you needed to stomp pieces in chess stability or stealth would come very handy regardless of which one you got.

Chess is the perfect game of balance, so any game that wants to be competitive and fair wants to be like chess. Each profession has there own set of equal skills so the playing field is fair, its up to the player and how they use those skills to determine who wins. And no if you are a Rook diagonal to your opponent then no amount of stealth or stability will help you stomp their piece. See analogies do work if you understand them.

If I down a guardian and I want to stomp him I need stability to do it stealth won’t work, so I just wasted a CD on RNG.

The randomness is really one of the worst things. Of all the professions the engineer gets so much random stuff… a real engineer would want efficiency and reliability. Especially for a combat he wants to win.

The Mortar was a big dissapointment.

I love the flame thrower but all the misses with the normal fire because I have a camera angle the game doesn’t like is a bit strange.

Also Flame Blast is such a bad skill. I have to be at a perfect distance to hit with a slow moving ball perfectly until it explodes to do mediocre damage for all the effort.

This are my main concerns. I really love the engineer. But thanks to him I feel OP when playing other professions sometimes. ;P

Agreed, Mortar needs work.

A Mortar Turret that actually fires on its own could be interesting (with the autoattack being Attack 1, and the Overcharge being the concussive barrage); I’d also like for it to not have the time limit on existing, have a better range than a traited Grenade kit, and allow it to be retrieved, like the other turrets.

There’s another problem with the ground targetting grenade kit I haven’t found described here.

The ground targetting requires the player to tilt the camera slightly forward, or else the exact target position is hard to determine. Then however the target unit frame becomes an even more constant irritation. It blocks your view on the target, the whole fray or catches the mouse click, making your character drop his grenades at his own feet. This impedes well timed reactions like dodging, blocking, reflecting, etc.
Ofc this affects other classes as well.

Possible solution: let us reposition the target unit frame. Perhaps right above our own life indicator. Even w/o the GT issue it is an annoyance as it blocks your far sight.

If I could choose I’d really prefer simple, uniform unit frames for character and target above the hotbar in terms of oversight. There good reasons why car dashboards are positioned below the front shield. And not in it’s upper third. ^^

Edit: would it constitute double posting if I re-send this into the suggestion board? Probably belongs rather there.

Doctor: “Take a sip of THIS medicine once every 24 hours. (aka cool-down)
It will either:
a) relieve your haemorrhoids for 1 hour (aka effect + duration)
or
b) stop you vomiting for 45 minutes (aka effect + duration)”

Me: “But Doctor, I came to you because I snore…”

THIS is how I experience our RNG. Also the reason I don’t run ANY of the random skills.

Poker, not chess. I find it confusing that folks are choosing the “Poker played here” class and then saying, “But I want chess”.

Poker, I’ll point out, also has the same chance for either player to succeed even though there is a lot of randomness.

I need someone to confirm this:
I started using the pistol a few days ago and I’ve noticed that the 2 skill (poison dart volley) misses some of its hits quite often even when the target is hardly moving and I am hardly moving. I’m not sure if it’s working as intended but I haven’t seen this on another class before.

For poison dart volley, you need to be in close range to have it full effect. From distance it will miss a lot.

Rozbuska.5263:

RNG isnt fun. Thats all what I wanna say.

So, apparently when I quoted this the first time and said “I second that” it was an infraction and my post was deleted because I wasn’t specific enough?

I second that because I want to know what my skills are going to do when I push the button, like how it works for the other classes. When I get spanked because I randomly get the effect I didn’t want at the time, I don’t fall out of my chair laughing because it was so amusing that my bumbling engineer messed up the potion again! I don’t guffaw aloud because I imagine him like a goony cartoon villain who just can’t seem to use the right amount of (ingredient X) in his elixer.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Where do we come in? When do I get to read in chat, kitten it’d be nice if we could get an engineer here!"

Trait-ed properly we can put light fields down faster than any class. When running in WvW there are many situations where stackable area retaliation is highly desired.

We also have a low cool down fire field. There are many situation where stackable might is highly desired.

I could go on, but the WiKi does a great job of explaining our combo fields.

I’m also going to say don’t underestimate the #5 ability on the shield.

I would love to see Rocket Boots act like a Targeted Charge…e.g. pick a target and WHOOSH to them, with the Rocket Kick as the Finisher(as for Toolbelt Skill I haven’t the foggiest…perhaps a ’Get the Hell Outta There!" like the Rocket Boot mechanic, but it actually shrugs off the other Conditions you are suffering from)

Using Overcharged Shot as a Knockback/Stun Breaker without the falling down mechanic(launching yourself back but still on your feet) would be nice as well.

As for the randomness of Toss Elixir S? Perhaps a mechanic that resembles an alternating effect…e.g. First toss is Stealth, so you know the next Toss will grant Stability, and so forth. For all other Tosses, such as Elixir B and Elixir H, just give us all the effects

Lanny.6987:

Poker, I’ll point out, also has the same chance for either player to succeed even though there is a lot of randomness.

Games of skill typically have elements of chance.

It’s rather true though that an Engineer has a bit of extra randomness to it when it doesn’t necessarily need to exist. It’s a cool theme, but personally I dislike it. It’s not really unmanageable though, just not dependable.

Personally I wish we could just choose what procs from the Elixirs, but I could see this as a bit too strong. Then again most people think the Engineer is weak so maybe this could be an answer, or even just making it so we get all the boons like Elixir B.

I would have to say the biggest thing bothering me about the skills is the bugs. It is difficult to fairly evaluate a skill when it is bugged.

Turrets need more power so they’re viable in the end game. I don’t like the RNG factor on elixirs, but I seem to be managing fine without using them. Turrets are highly disappointing though…one of the reasons I wanted to play this class was to lay down rocket and rifle turrets, but the only one that’s useful is healing.

Chaba.5410:

Lanny.6987:

Poker, I’ll point out, also has the same chance for either player to succeed even though there is a lot of randomness.

Games of skill typically have elements of chance.

True, but there’s a distinction to be made between randomness and random elements that are balanced. If a random element can cause the difference between complete success and complete failure with the same level of skill from the player, it’s unfair.

Anyone who says poker isn’t a game of skill needs to watch Tom “Durrr” Dwan beat a pro poker player with 7 2 off suit. If none of that made sense to you, don’t talk about poker until you’ve seen/played it. The randomness is balanced, because in the end, it’s all about reading your player, making moves when you have the right position and creating a story with your moves that other players will buy. It doesn’t matter what hand you have, as long as you read everyone correctly.

I could be totally dreaming this and when strafing I tend to be anywhere from 350-500 range (or closer or farther) but when doing a circle-strafe around target I’d swear that the poison dart hits more often than when at the same range just shooting. I’m wondering if the side-delta is making poison dart think it missed the last round so should hit this one. (Note that the first poison dart shot seems to hit at almost any range.)

Kardiamond.6952:

For poison dart volley, you need to be in close range to have it full effect. From distance it will miss a lot.

Who needs to “know” poker when you have Google — http://boardgames.about.com/od/poker/tp/worst_starting.htm

On reflection my comment wasn’t really thought out since the other player (unless you get that rare Engi on Engi fight) doesn’t have to deal with the randomness.

I will stand by my statement that you weren’t sold a pig in a poke though. Personally I find happiness in the fact that ANet probably wont’ change the Engi playstyle overnight based on forum concerns. (I expect they’ll change it. Not to any one bit of “how Engi would be better” but overall because there is so many saying it could be better.) I find happiness in the fact that they are trying to hold to a theme and if Engi (or some other class) is quite good they won’t short-change it just because folks are complaining that, “rock is too strong. paper is fine. —scissors”.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Chaba.5410:

Lanny.6987:

Poker, I’ll point out, also has the same chance for either player to succeed even though there is a lot of randomness.

Games of skill typically have elements of chance.

True, but there’s a distinction to be made between randomness and random elements that are balanced. If a random element can cause the difference between complete success and complete failure with the same level of skill from the player, it’s unfair.

Anyone who says poker isn’t a game of skill needs to watch Tom “Durrr” Dwan beat a pro poker player with 7 2 off suit. If none of that made sense to you, don’t talk about poker until you’ve seen/played it. The randomness is balanced, because in the end, it’s all about reading your player, making moves when you have the right position and creating a story with your moves that other players will buy. It doesn’t matter what hand you have, as long as you read everyone correctly.

I think that rocket boots should work like rifle #5 but not have you floating in the air. The trait when you dodge you create a bomb it should be changed to a mine instead.

Also shield #5 should grant retaliation

Playing around with the flamethrower kit last night and #2 definitely needs some attention. It does piddly damage on the pass through shot, and the range that the explosion hits at the end is hard to determine. The blowback on #3 knocks enemies into the high damage range, but most of them are back on you fast enough that they miss the high damage. I’d say either give a short knockdown to #3 or up the damage on the pass through part of the attack
This is PvE by the way.

@Rizzo

They have to raise the damage, since it’s a skill shot. It should hit as hard as my grenade barrage! (dreaming, my be too OP :P)

Also, it bug so much. How many time did I throw that fireball in the ground. So bad