Guild Wars 2

Ok. This is a pve only topic. so dont say ‘In WvW Blah Blah, or ’Well in sPvP Blah Blah.
Its been stated by the majority of engineers and i’ve seen this out in the world. Grenade kits when specced for it do by a good ammount, the most damage of any of our weapons or kits. Even in single target. And i’m talking about out of water grenades. I dont mean glass cannons either and was lvl 80 when i tried this out.
I cant stand grenades. They’re clunky, awkward to use and i just dont like them in general. I love flamethrowers, pistol/shield and chugging elixers, but these dont work together so i have to use rifle if i take flamethrower and the damage is still much lower than grenades.
I feel like i’m forced to take this weapon kit to be fully useful to my group and i dont like it.
I want to play the way i like and be just as effective to my group and not feel like there’s better options for me.
I thought you were supposed to play how you wanted without any problems.

Anyone else feel this way?
and if not what are you doing instead thats just as useful?
(I’m not disregarding support but our support leaves alot to be desired)

I dont in any way feel forced to use grenades in PvE, for the most part I use pistols. Which are my bread and butter there. I do have grenades also, but usually only use them when AOE is called for.

Also pistols for the most part makes it alot easier to kill with in PvE. Cause you are supposed to move/kite mobs and pistols makes that much easier.

Yea, I know that feel.
The grenades simply do the best damage with grenadier perk and it obsoletes everything else in terms of range, conditions and raw damage.

It’s so good that it obsoletes Mortar and Elixir X because both of them do less dmg than grenades.

Only thing that I find capable of competing with the damage that grenades do is the piercing 1h pistol bullets, which only is good enemies are bunched together in such a way that you pierce through all of them, while they’re still in the range of the explosions they cause.

The single target damage on that spec is absolutely horrid though, where as with grenades it’s still VERY good.

I never felt “forced” to use grenades at all. Sure, they do swell damage, but I don’t be obligated to use them at all. I do fine with dual pistols or even pistol/shield.

Maybe in a rifle build.

In a pistol build, you really need power as grenades are pretty focused on power.

Strongback.6420:

Yea, I know that feel.
The grenades simply do the best damage with grenadier perk and it obsoletes everything else in terms of range, conditions and raw damage.

It’s so good that it obsoletes Mortar and Elixir X because both of them do less dmg than grenades.

Only thing that I find capable of competing with the damage that grenades do is the piercing 1h pistol bullets, which only is good enemies are bunched together in such a way that you pierce through all of them, while they’re still in the range of the explosions they cause.

The single target damage on that spec is absolutely horrid though, where as with grenades it’s still VERY good.

obsoletes mortar? rofl no. not until it hits 7k damage aoe on mobs and on bosses

and no mortar range surpasses grenades when elite supplies gets fixed

How are you forced to use grenades? Do people realize there are more roles then just straight damage?

flamethrower damage is most certainly not lower then grenades.

flamethower and p/p can work. Yes, flame is mostly +power/crit, while p/p is more like 60% cond, and 40% power/crit. Might gives power and cond. and you can gear for that.

p/p’s direct and aoe damage are probably the highest honestly. Just much smaller aoe size then grenades. the auto, static shot and blow torch are aoe. (as well glue shot, but that doesnt deal damage) Not sure if poison art becomes aoe with pierce. (if so, honestly might give up grenades entirely, and just focus on p/p)

Grenades ARE very good, and you get them early. Grenade toolbelt skill is a bit overpowered honestly. or others are underpowered.

Engineer with pistols is the new splinterbarrager. If you use terrain to ball up foes, and have max conditions in traits, your shot’s pierce and explode x-times on every foe, while applying a load of conditions. Don’t know if grenade explosions are effective in that way aswell.

Grenades, by their nature, also affect multiple enemies, especially when they are clumped up. Grenades also apply conditions, do greater damage and have a MUCH greater range.

Only downside is you need to trait into them for them to be really effective and they are incredibly clunky to use. They are actually pretty bad in pvp because it’s silly easy to dodge them.

I personally have not felt the need to use grenades, though the pros of them can be great in PvE, if you spec into them, it is really about changing your style, if you feel forced, change up everything, from skills to the way you play, each kit needs a slightly different playstyle, and you need to adjust with each kit.

Went and tested. Yes, poison dart volley does become aoe with piercing. However, its spread becomes an issue. If you target closest, the spread will be wide, and shots past will not hit targets 100% 1 or 2, while the first target will get hit 5 times.

Explosive shot behaves like grenades with piercing. Meaning if they are tight, you will hit targets 2 even 3 times with the explosion and bleeding effects.

I never felt forced to use them simply because I love em since the moment I got that kit. I loved necro’s staff skills and grenades playstyle is very similar to that. It took a bit to get used to not having an auto-attack and timing and cast+travel time but doing it right is rewarding to me.

I would really like to see other weapon kits get buffed to be on par with grenade damage tho. Engineer has the potential to be a very diverse class but if they don’t buff other kits that’s not gonna happen. And if they just nerf grenades then that would be one of the worse idea ever, engis don’t need a nerf at all (or maybe just nerf the underwater version of grenades, why the free 100% bonus attack speed? lol, who said grenades cast and move twice as fast underwater? They would be fine with exactly the same dmg output the land version does.)

The grenades with grenadier definitely feel very powerful. I think the only thing that really balances them is how clunky they are to use on land, and that can be negated. In water they’re crazy powerful.

That said, I feel effective using my pistols and the flamethrower and elixir gun as well, so I don’t feel like I’m forced to use them, except in water when I really just want to let loose and be a dps machine.

I think there’ definitely a feeling that they’re the most powerful of the kit weapons, particularly if you’re skilled enough to use them on the run and still hit your target. They’ll definitely be difficult to balance. I feel right now like they need a bit of tone down, especially in water, but it’s still early to make any hard judgments right now.

I posted a question here on the forums asking for help with my engineer, because even though I was entirely specced for damage, I could barely kill anything. No, I hadn’t tried bomb kit or grenade kit because I hate all the stupid noisy explosions.

A couple days ago I asked in game, and a person helped me. We were testing skills and fighting for hours. So I learned a ton of things. For example:

• Flamethrower: the first attack is not just “one attack”, it’s 10 attacks in one. So if you build your traits for precision and all the conditions, it’s going to be very strong. Even better if you use the skill for Quickness on a though boss. Fury helps, for extra critical chance. If you have Utility Goggles you get fury, and also 10 stacks of vulnerability to start off the fight.

• Bombs: Not so bad if you pay attention to the combos. Engineer has a lot of blast combo finishers you can use with the two combo fields (2 and 4)

Personally I love the Wrench tool kit, so I wish I can make it more useful (though 5 is hopeless). So I’m going to try these new things I learned with it, and see how I do!

I actually really like the grenate kit, I just wish I could turn off the sound AND animation for them. They’re too strong and make me feel tired after a while.

If you find more things to make the engineer stronger, please post here so we can all learn

(edit: specified “blast combo finishers”)

Currently I feel forced to use grenades when doing events, so that I can try (key word, since the throw is a bit too slow) to keep up with the other peoples AoE. When doing stuff on own, anything kinda goes.

This a pretty serious issue, Grenades are far and away the best DMG option, especially when you consider how quickly they stack vulnerability up to 25.

Now, personally I love grenades, but its not fair for others who don’t like using them. There are a couple of possible solutions…

1. Buff rifle and pistol damage so that our main weapons also become our main single target DPS choice…

2. Nerf Grenades ability to stack vulnerability so quickly.

3. Make the end of each trait line have a grand master trait as powerful as grenadier for each of the corresponding kits.

Example…
Explosives :New bomb kit grand master that greatly buffs bomb kit
Firearms : New pistol/rifle grand master that greatly buffs gun DMG
Inventions : New Med Kit/Turret grand master
Alchemy : New Flame Thrower/Elixir Gun grand master
Tools : New Tool Kit/Gadget(s) grand master

While 3 would take the most effort to balance, I think our grand masters could use some work anyway, and this would kill 2 birds with one stone.

I agree with your point 3. It’s essentially that one trait that makes grenades go from “meh” to “over 9000!”.

Grenades in pvp are pretty much only useful at close range(where they’re VERY useful)

They’re good for sieges in WvWvW, but they take so long to travel the distance, that anyone with a head on their shoulders can dodge them. I’m not knocking them, I absolutely love grenades.. I just feel I should clear that bit up :P

Echelon.5384:

How are you forced to use grenades? Do people realize there are more roles then just straight damage?

Such as?

Unfortunately, the other roles are better left for other classes. Engineer doesn’t do anything that the other classes can do better. Support, range, tank, dot, area-effect, etc.

Grenade is the engineer’s calling. Should just re-name the class “Grenadier”.

Grenades > anything else on the engineer. That is even before the 30 points in Explosions….

I use grenades to soften up a tough target initially, then I switch quickly to pistols. This works best when I have the element of surprise.

I made it to 80+ without any need or desire to go grenadier or use the grenade kit.

Some people like using the grenades- personally I don’t.

carabidus.6214:

I use grenades to soften up a tough target initially, then I switch quickly to pistols. This works best when I have the element of surprise.

Agree. Thus re-enforcing the OP’s statement.

I use EXACTLY the setup you say feels clunky. I am a Charr Engi and my setup is thus: Pistol/Shield combo, use pistol for main damage and use shield for reducing incoming ranged and physical damage. The first shield skill allows you to return projectiles to the ranged enemy who sent them at you (doesn’t work with AoE’s) but you can pop it to push back melee. The second ability blocks and stuns nearby enemies who hit you and you can press it again to throw it in a line and daze/dmg everyone in that line going out and back. Very useful for mitigating damage.
I carry the healing turret (Personal preference, but I like being able to heal when I place it, heal while I stand near it, heal when I activate 6 again, and heal when I press the F1 key 2 times because the Healing Mist toolbelt skill creates a Combo field: water and the exploding turret is a Combo finisher: Explosion. The last one listed is admittedly a little unreliable, but is still a lot of healing just from one skill.)
I carry the purple elixir, please forgive me I can’t remember the name. The one that grants Swiftness to help kite and get around faster, Retaliation in case I get stuck and hit, Regen always nice, and most importantly 2 stacks of Might which increases my damage and my condition damage.
I use the Flamethrower, which I find to not be clunky at all as I use it only to fight groups, where it does the most damage total and offers you good survivability with a knockback and a melee distance blind.
I use the Hidden Pistol to gain even more distance when I’m kiting in PvE to let my energy recharge. Finally I use the Care Package as my Elite because I LOVE all the utility it brings to the table, AoE damage and stun and health packs and net and flame and healing turrets all for one skill.
To anyone who thinks this build sounds weird it’s because I specced weird. The thing I neglected to mention for most of this is that my Charr Engi is Condition damage specialized. He inflicts EVERY SINGLE damaging condition in the game. The pistol 1 skill causes a bleeding can stack intensity and is constantly refreshed, the 2 skill applies 5 hits of poison if they all land (I usually get 4/5 hits easy) that not only do DoT stacking duration, but also cause a -33% healing debuff, the 3 skill applies confusion which damages the target the next time they try to use a skill and on top of confusion it blinds the target and all targets it bounces to. That’s just the pistol alone, I’m not done yet.
While it’s true that I don’t often SWITCH to the flamethrower, I refuse to replace it on my bar unless I’m grouping because of the toolbelt skill that it gives. This allows my next 3 attacks to cause burning for a HUGE amount. I also use the toolbelt skill gained from Hidden Pistol to apply this as often as I can because the damage from Hidden Pistols (very original name ) is huge and it applies all three hits of the burning very rapidly. Lastly, I can buff myself and my team with the Toss Elixir in a pinch.
When I group I try to switch focus, but I wanted to get my main build out there. This build is designed for longer fights, true, but it will WASTE any of level or lower very fast with a little kiting and will still do well against enemies higher than you it’s currently still being used by my 51 Charr Engi and I love the build, I made it myself, and I’m constantly trying to improve it.
BTW, when I say I’m condition damage speciaized, I mean that, last time I checked, I have 306 condition damage which is more than my weapon damage. I’m sorry I wrote a book, but I wanted to explain my choices so you guys could decide if you like the ideas or critique them in any way. Try it out guys, let me know what you think and I hope this helps!

Alot of people feel forced to use them in pvp to… but that could be because of mesmers a bit to :S

tuksonrider.1076:

Echelon.5384:

How are you forced to use grenades? Do people realize there are more roles then just straight damage?

Such as?

Unfortunately, the other roles are better left for other classes. Engineer doesn’t do anything that the other classes can do better. Support, range, tank, dot, area-effect, etc.

Grenade is the engineer’s calling. Should just re-name the class “Grenadier”.

Well this proves you haven’t really studied your class

Mortar Skill 3
Med Kit
Elixir Gun 5
Elixir Gun Tool Belt Skill
Healing Turret
Throwable Elixirs
Supply Crate

Elite Supplies The Supply Crate has extra supplies, Elixir X lasts longer, and Mortar has increased range.

Elixir-Infused Bombs Bomb explosions heal allies.

Cleaning Formula 409 Throwing or consuming elixirs removes conditions from those affected.

Always Prepared Drop bandages and a flamethrower or elixir gun when downed.

Packaged Stimulants Med Kit skills can be thrown.

Getting it now? the only other class with this many support functions (and probably more) are Guardians. And even guardians don’t have as many heals as Engineer, Let alone with there hardest hitting Abilities

Learn what a support DPS is.

and screw Grenadier, rename it to War Medic

grenades are overrated. to be clear my pistol/pistol condition build can easily stack so many conditions in a few seconds with elixir U so that I will make you cry for the amount of health you will lose per second. if I manage to get close or if some super cool thief thinks he is a melee pro, well I got a surprise for you: my blowtorch deals 6k burn damage over 9 seconds when I hit you in melee range

Tigger.8035:

Well this proves you haven’t really studied your class

Mortar Skill 3
Med Kit
Elixir Gun 5
Elixir Gun Tool Belt Skill
Healing Turret
Throwable Elixirs
Supply Crate

Elite Supplies The Supply Crate has extra supplies, Elixir X lasts longer, and Mortar has increased range.

Elixir-Infused Bombs Bomb explosions heal allies.

Cleaning Formula 409 Throwing or consuming elixirs removes conditions from those affected.

Always Prepared Drop bandages and a flamethrower or elixir gun when downed.

Packaged Stimulants Med Kit skills can be thrown.

Getting it now? the only other class with this many support functions (and probably more) are Guardians. And even guardians don’t have as many heals as Engineer, Let alone with there hardest hitting Abilities

Learn what a support DPS is.

and screw Grenadier, rename it to War Medic

Actually, this proves you haven’t studied your class.

Most of the skills you mentioned are shamefully ineffective.

The guardian has fewer healing skills? that’s okay, because his are all vastly more effective. Bomb explosions heal allies? have you tried it? It’s for almost nothing. it’s a joke played on us to make us think we actually bring utility to the table. Mortar presently has shorter range than spec’d grenades AND does less damage.

The medkit seems like the embodiment of why I chose the engineer class. the ability to be a solid support-on-demand character. sadly, it too is grossly ineffective. you would think dropping all offensive ability from the weapon would grant us equally powerful support skill. Well it doesn’t. You’re still dramatically below a guardian for support, and while wearing weaker armor.

In short, I just wanted to post a rebuttal to your ‘support dps’ idea as it’s all in your head. All you have to do, is compare it to what other classes get. and heck, even really analyze it yourself, go heal yourself with a bandage and tell me what percentage of your hp you regain.

My medkits heal for 1.2k each dunno how that’s little

Mortar’s healing radius heals for 350 HP a pulse, Dunno how that’s little as well considering the only Healing I’m getting is from traits.

and majority of the engineer traits and abilities are bugged, yes. But if you want to continue to judge a class that’s not even at the top of it’s game right now this way so be it.

I honestly didn’t feel forced into grenades until they changed the Juggernaut ability for the Flamethrower, now I feel that my only viable way of doing anything useful is with the grenades. The pistol and rifle don’t have the range, while they (can) hit hard they are sadly not as effective. More especially in PvE when you can accidently pierce through your target and draw more guys on you, or just aggro more mobs when you’re kiting your current target around. In Orr when 1 reg mob can kill you with ease getting add’s is not very healthy for you. I don’t know if you’ve tried to play in any dungeon’s yet but I really felt it more so there than anywhere else in the game so far.
Even with Med Kit for F1 heal, then Elixir Gun giving F2 regen, then Elixir Gun’s 5 ability for regen, plus traits for regen while using a kit. I never healed fast enough on myself or anyone else to save my neck when it mattered. Maybe I’m supposed to try to spec into full healing?

Oh by the way I tried that in the BWE’s I went into sPvP and did fulling healing gear and spec’d into bombs. They healed for about 243 if I recall correctly… Mobs in Orr hit for 1k. So you can heal roughly 1/3 of 1 mob’s 1 attack? In sPvP it was useless that pathetic amount didn’t even phase a player attacking you. I’m sure none even realized I was trying to heal myself in all honesty.

I “Want” To be support, but i usually get funneled into Grenadier every time. Im making bomb heal specs and elixir gun constant condition removal elixir throwing specs and turret control specs (putting turrets in intervals so i can detonate them and knock enemies back, great for crowd control in a corridor) but all of it feels ineffective when stacked against the hardest damage i can do AoE (My grenade spec goes into firearms too) with the best range (Great for distant targets mid fight like Sylvari mortar plants) with loads of conditions and 25 stacks of vuln.

Elixir specs support felt like it pales in comparison to 25 stacks of vuln, it does other things sure, but i feel they are too unreliable, when specced might and condition removal are the only 100% things, and ~6 stacks of might in a tiny area (which forces team mates to group up) does not beat +25% damage on target. Grenades also bring chill and poison which can be blasted in to cause weakness, and AoE blinds which on non boss mobs is like a group Aegis.

The bomb feels like a poor mans grenade, maybe because my gear is glass cannon stuff so grenades benefit from the condition damage more, but the healing was not something i could recommend for a serious dungeon (Though i was able to keep myself alive against a around 7 mobs in Orr who came 2/3 at a time, the compassion helped for my self heal too)

Turret spec was fun, i liked using my wrench to heal turrets, but the overall CD hurt a lot, and while i have not tried in dungeons, i can imagine a single AoE taking them all down, which would render my damage basicly useless for a minute until i got my rocket turret back.

In the end, i went 30/20/0/20/0, use pistol and shield (I switch a lot, personal preference here), took grenades AND elixir gun, and Elixir R for throwable rez. The main theme of elixir gun is the condition removal which is very important in some instances, but you do not need to spec for this, the only speccing i did was reduced CD, and now i can use it when needed, while using the immense grenades otherwise. Im not pure damage and i know that, i give vuln, i chill, i poison which can also give weakness, a condition cleanse and can put down light fields to allow others to cleanse too, i have two on demand regen applicators (healing turret and healing mist F abilities) and supply crate for AoE stuns and support. I know i am VERY useful to my group. But for the most part, it just “feels” like im doing straight up damage. Im just sat at max range (well, 1200 so grenade barrage still works) rotating through grenades for the most part. Despite my glass cannon spec and gear (well, 200 vitality from alchemy is not glass but i digress) i usually end up as the last alive in heavy kite based fights due to constant vigor and amazing range (though circle kiting and grenade throwing can be a pain)

Rant over: Grenade spec is the best spec i can imagine for engineer at the moment, it damages and support immensely, i want other things to work as good as this, i want to dedicate to support, but i just can’t beat the passive support grenades bring, and the best part of our reliable support can just be slotted as your 2nd utility and your ready for combat.

Oh, and furthermore on the elixir gun, the weakness spam is great for fights where the enemy is hitting really hard, i usually back out of my insane damage and start spamming weakness while putting up healing areas and dishing out regen, crippling the enemy and poisoning, but again, this is just a slight, one utility tweak on my standard, insane damage and “offensive support” grenade spec.

I’ve been melee, tool kit is just fun. I don’t mind that it is probably the worse build but I enjoy it and the burst damage. I get regeneration from having a kit on plus have faster cooldowns on the kit to block and use Pry Bar more. My play style is run in with swiftness and throw wrench then use rocket kick to get right next to them. After that use pry bar I switch to rifle and use Blunderbuss then jump shot on my current location, then it is back to tool kit and hitting with smack till cooldowns are ready. It is not the most powerful but it is fun and different. I am also only level 66 and it is working quite well.

I’ve been trying a 20 firearms, 20 inventions and 30 elixer build with pistol/ shield, elixer gun and the purple dps elixer and elixer r. Focusing on Buffing the group, removing conditions, healing and activating blast fields. Ive tried it in a few explorables and it’s been fun but really really bad damage. And super elixer is pretty low healing. An removing conditions needs people to be close together which is a but annoying. But overall kinda fun.