Guild Wars 2

Phineas Poe.3018:

Obtena.7952:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Obtena.7952:

You aren’t going to find spammable AOE direct damage builds in MMO’s for a reason.

Have you not equipped the Bomb Kit?

Yes and? You’re comparing bomb to FT gameplay? I think that’s a hard sell don’t you? Maybe if the bombs actually targeted players, you would be on to something, but that’s not how they work.

You said “you aren’t going to find spammable AOE direct damage builds” and that’s precisely what power engi is.

I wouldn’t classify that in the same league as FT … you can lay bombs all you want, but if people don’t step on them … that’s a massive distinction from making FT a power weapon that can target players. So I’m pretty sure that’s why it’s not as easy as people think to make FT a power weapon. The balancing considerations are completely different between them.

I mean, you want to just argue pedantic here … OK, bomb is spammable, it’s AOE and it’s mostly direct damage, but that wasn’t the context of my original post in the first place so … ?

I just don’t see the huge issue with this change. There never was some great flamethrower power build. Sure, there were some fun or niche or lazy power builds you could enjoy with flamethrower, but it’s not like it was ever going to be anything more than that.

I think they are on the right track with giving our kits a more defined purpose. It’s silly to have all these different high damage skills spread out between different kits. For example, the pve power scrapper taking flamethrower just for the #2 and elixir gun just for the #4 alongside grenade kit, just so he can maximize his damage.

With them giving flamethrower a more defined role, it only made sense for it to be a condi kit focused on burning. Now they need to continue on and make bomb kit a purely power based weapon, let grenade kit be the ranged weapon that can be spec’d for either power or condi, make med kit a useful support weapon, elixir gun a better condi removal/buff weapon, and do…….something with mortar.

Obtena.7952:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Obtena.7952:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Obtena.7952:

You aren’t going to find spammable AOE direct damage builds in MMO’s for a reason.

Have you not equipped the Bomb Kit?

Yes and? You’re comparing bomb to FT gameplay? I think that’s a hard sell don’t you? Maybe if the bombs actually targeted players, you would be on to something, but that’s not how they work.

You said “you aren’t going to find spammable AOE direct damage builds” and that’s precisely what power engi is.

I wouldn’t classify that in the same league as FT … you can lay bombs all you want, but if people don’t step on them … that’s a massive distinction from making FT a power weapon that can target players. So I’m pretty sure that’s why it’s not as easy as people think to make FT a power weapon. The balancing considerations are completely different between them.

I mean, you want to just argue pedantic here … OK, bomb is spammable, it’s AOE and it’s mostly direct damage, but that wasn’t the context of my original post in the first place so … ?

What context was missed? It was literally the only point you made:

Obtena.7952:

It would not have been easy at all to make FT viable for power builds … any experienced veteran of MMO’s knows how fast spammable AOE direct damage builds get nerfed. FT was never going to favour power builds for this very reason.

You said the FT was never going to be viable because “spammable AOE direct damage builds get nerfed.”

Power engi is literally a “spammable AOE direct damage build.” Bomb Kit has the largest range/radius of any auto-attack in the game, and it’s arguably the strongest. And guess what? Power engi got buffed: they buffed Shaped Charge, Glass Cannon, and Static Discharge.

I said it wouldn’t be easy for FT to be made into a strong power weapons because of how OP’ed spammable, AOE direct damage builds are; MMO’s tend to not dump lots of damage dealing capabilities into weapons that have these configurations because of scalabilities. Again, bombs don’t target players so that keeps it from being comparable to the kind of impact a strong power FT weapon would have on large groups of players, which does directly target players. Not sure how that significant difference doesn’t cause you to rethink what you’re saying to me, but regardless … it’s not hard to see Anet won’t be doing that or if they do, it won’t be easy like the poster that I replied to said it would be.

I mean, you’re arguing pendantics here … Bombs don’t fall into what I’m talking about here … they don’t target people like an FT would, so just because bombs are ok as spammable AOE direct damage doesn’t mean FT could just as easy be that and not be OPed at the same time … This seems like the third time I’m saying it. Is there a communication issue here?

sooooo the targeting is different because the shape of the aoe and the placement of the aoe are different despite the fact that you click on someone and face them when you push 1 on either kit what is the difference i do not see it dude. are you talking about the delay that bombs have? the circle vs the cone? the 2-2.5x dps that bombs get? all 3 things (lol)?

an autoattack is an autoattack. ft1 and bomb1 have more in common than not: no cd, aoe, short range. and bomb1 does as much dps as the best ps warrior, and it only does 1/2 the dps of a really good engi player.

Not all autoattacks are made the same and FT and bomb are a fine example of that. You can correct me, I’m sure you will … how awesome is Bomb in PVP or WvW? I would be curious how well regarded it is for those things. I think we have all played plenty of MMOs where AOE skills that are spammable are considerably scaled back or neutered for exactly the reason I say here. This isn’t some new phenomenon. There would be nothing easy about simply making FT a power build weapon like the poster said it would be.

neither bombs nor flame thrower are great in wvw. bombs have little use since the fuse time is too long and players are smart enough to not stand in aoes. flamethrower can see use as tagging or as a condi assassin, but suffers extremely from juggernaut being in firearms in an environment that very nearly requires 2 or 3 other specs. and power flamethrower builds have been nearly nonexistent for a long time thanks to retal.

both kits suffer in pvp for the same reasons, but at least point capture offers an area for bombs to deny.

on the other hand, hammer is also spammable direct damage in those game modes and has been pretty much the only option since it’s introduction, and you just don’t need other power things cuz hammer is better and offers better utility and more useful things to do. no one that I’m aware of is calling for nerfs to hammer 1.

Obtena.7952:

There would be nothing easy about simply making FT a power build weapon like the poster said it would be.

I think you misunderstood me.
I said:

They could have easely made flamethrower viable for both power, hybrid AND condi builds but now its only good for condi and condi focused hybrid builds. Sad.

I want kits to be hybrid not pigeonholed, it’s detrimental to build diversity imo. I stand by my claim that it would have been easy (minor buffs/changes would have sufficed) but im not going to argue over it with you any further.

santenal.1054:

Obtena.7952:

There would be nothing easy about simply making FT a power build weapon like the poster said it would be.

I think you misunderstood me.
I said:

They could have easely made flamethrower viable for both power, hybrid AND condi builds but now its only good for condi and condi focused hybrid builds. Sad.

I want kits to be hybrid not pigeonholed, it’s detrimental to build diversity imo. I stand by my claim that it would have been easy (minor buffs/changes would have sufficed) but im not going to argue over it with you any further.

I disagree, I think jack-of-all-trades kits are detrimental to diversity, not the other way around.

I mean, outside of Healing Turret and the occasional Elixir, how often do you use a skill that is not a kit for anything involving fractals, raids or any other challenging content (other than Scrapper bunker builds)? Yes, part of that is gadgets and turrets and damage gyros being various degrees of mediocrity, but it’s also because why would you take a utility that gives you two skills when you can take one that has six that could do so many more things than the other utility could ever do?

Now Flamethrower is all about burning, with a blind and a small knockback as a bonus. You might be sad because it no longer has a place in power builds. I am glad because now I have an excuse to use something other than Flamethrower for those builds instead.

Less kit flexibility is not gonna make those 15 skill clicker builds any beter or increase build diversity.

By making the kits more focused, it will improved build diversity, because you won’t need 4 kits to do the damage you need 4 kits for now, and will get to use some of the other utility skills.

santenal.1054:

Less kit flexibility is not gonna make those 15 skill clicker builds any beter or increase build diversity.

Yes it will.

I mean, until the patch the skill set for Power builds and Condition builds were exactly the same; Healing Turret, Bomb Kit, Grenade Kit, Flamethrower Kit, Mortar. All that changed were your primary weapons, gear stats and your traits. Outside of your primary weapon I don’t even think the skills you used for both were that much different either.

Now you’re picking something other than Flamethrower for your power build. Maybe Rifle Turret? buff to Static Discharge makes its toolbelt skill pretty powerful. Maybe enough that you’ll want to drop another kit for those times you need a stunbreak or more condition cleanse? Who knows.*

Think on it, if you had 3 skills that were great at both condition and direct damage, why would you use anything else when you didn’t need something specific? That what were we were at before the patch.

*Just to note, I doubt the Static Discharge buff has made Rifle Turret that good, but the fact that I could plausibly suggest that for a PvE build it’s better to keep a regular skill over a kit is something I have been dreaming of for YEARS.

Rifle turret is really good in power builds. The current power meta build is already Bomb, Grenade, Rifle turret as a baseline (might pull something else in situationally). It’s actually not bad outside pure damage too, being able to place it for an additional blast is pretty useful, also 150 breakbar damage.

But, yes I agree with the idea of having kits be a bit more specialized. If bomb went full power it’d mean you bring 2 kits for either option then the third is more free. Pair that with a reworking of Gadgets and/or Turrets and it could lead to more options.

I don’t think I’d want grenades touched though, simply because they are core to every build. In an ideal world if they remade the game then yeah I wouldn’t design them from the get go like that in hindsight, but I think touching them now would then require a lot more reworking things.

I think I understand you guys thought process.
If flamethrower is a strong condition kit on its own it’s easier to justify slotting non-condi utility skills in your other utility slots for example (talking about PVP and WVW builds).

I don’t believe that will necessarily translate overall in more build diversity since you are stuck with certain kits depending on the stats you choose but its definitely another build diversity.

Honest question:
Why do PVE’ers even care about build diversity aren’t they just going to play the same builds (best dps) over and over again (while once and a while slotting a needed utility skill) ?

There could be lots of reasons to care about build diversity. I don’t think it’s fun to run the same build all the time.

santenal.1054:

I think I understand you guys thought process.
If flamethrower is a strong condition kit on its own it’s easier to justify slotting non-condi utility skills in your other utility slots for example (talking about PVP and WVW builds).

I don’t believe that will necessarily translate overall in more build diversity since you are stuck with certain kits depending on the stats you choose but its definitely another (imo less interesting) build diversity.

Honest question:
Why do PVE’ers even care about build diversity aren’t they just going to play the same builds (best dps) over and over again (while once and a while slotting a needed utility skill) ?

Yes/No, having variations worth changing to is fun. So yes there will be a core build, but having options to swap to that are meaningful and powerful is fun. An example might be Ele (at least before this patch) where you had Staff on large hitbox, and FA staff and D/W for small hitbox. Or, in a utility side on Druid you might run traited stone spirit for protection instead of sun spirit, or pull out Protect me to combat sloth AE fear, maybe Search and Rescue if needed. To continue into Engineer if we had that free slot it would make the idea of elixirs, gadgets and turrets valuable for finding that niche use.

Of course hopefully a rework to gadgets at least would come with that, turrets could use some work as well though. As just a thought, something like buffing Mine through the Gadgeteer trait to do some really good damage, buffing the toolbelt skill as well. Utility goggles could become a group buff and the toolbelt analyze a debuff on the target that increases damage (think vuln but not limited to it’s stacking). Rocket boots becomes ground targetted to be more practical in it’s mobility idea, and the toolbelt increase in damage to make up for say the loss of Fire Bomb if the whole kit thing goes that way. And then Slick shoes could cause burning for each location making it a good condi option and make it’s toolbelt skill group superspeed under gadgeteer.

If that happened you’d likely have an Engi running Utility goggles but if you have a second they might go with Slick Shoes for condi and Throw Mine or Rifle Turret for power, but if you’re doing Sabatha you might prefer the mobility of Rocket Boots.

Not overly thought out suggestions, just something to demonstrate the point.

santenal.1054:

Honest question:
Why do PVE’ers even care about build diversity aren’t they just going to play the same builds (best dps) over and over again (while once and a while slotting a needed utility skill) ?

Just because it’s best dps doesn’t mean it’s fun. I avoided any build that involved Grenades for the longest time before I submitted to the fact that yes, I have to use them to be better than mediocre at anything (save super-bursty Static Discharge builds, which I still do now and again when I’m Open world and fights aren’t long enough for the terrible sustain dps to be an issue) There will always be a “best” build- even in pvp and wvw- but even in PvE there is still room for great builds that you might find more enjoyable to play even if they aren’t the absolute best at what you want them to do.

Personally I’ve always been of the opinion that the “meta” builds you see on metabattle and the like are guidelines, not hard rules on how to play. Maybe not so in Raids, obviously, and in CM Nightmare, but on everything below that of that I’ve always been able to make a tweak or two to suit my preference and playstyle without everything falling apart.

Changes like this improve build diversity for me, because I can make more changes to my skills and traits to find something that suits me without severely happening my capabilities from what “best” for the role I have in mind.

bearshaman.3421:

To people complaining about their build being dead:

Guess what, change happens. Learn to adapt. The profession as a whole is better off than what it once was. Your previous build doesn’t work they way it used to. That’s true for everyone at some point. Balance patches change how things work. That’s the point. They are trying to change things to make the game better for everyone. It’s not about you and your one particular build. If you can’t adapt, then I’m sorry, but you’re gonna have a hard time not only in the game, but life in general. Nothing stays the same.

This was a good patch for this profession. Hopefully the ideas behind some of the changes will continue, and we will get even better, more efficient, and more effective. Time will tell. In the meantime, roll with it, and enjoy the ride.

Took me a while to get over what anet did to my perfect build when they took stun away from gyros. Still a bit salty but i moved on (now running vanilla as I find vanilla is better overall…but I miss my function gyro)

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

bearshaman.3421:

To people complaining about their build being dead:

Guess what, change happens. Learn to adapt. The profession as a whole is better off than what it once was. Your previous build doesn’t work they way it used to. That’s true for everyone at some point. Balance patches change how things work. That’s the point. They are trying to change things to make the game better for everyone. It’s not about you and your one particular build. If you can’t adapt, then I’m sorry, but you’re gonna have a hard time not only in the game, but life in general. Nothing stays the same.

This was a good patch for this profession. Hopefully the ideas behind some of the changes will continue, and we will get even better, more efficient, and more effective. Time will tell. In the meantime, roll with it, and enjoy the ride.

Took me a while to get over what anet did to my perfect build when they took stun away from gyros. Still a bit salty but i moved on (now running vanilla as I find vanilla is better overall…but I miss my function gyro)

And I get that. Not sure what vanilla means, guessing you’re not using scrapper? These and previous changes have forced me to change the builds I run with too (the venomshare change for thief completely wrecked my concept build for that class), but there are usually upsides to them as well (thief now has a set of skills that buff a party). If anything, while yes it can be annoying to have to change, it does keep things interesting, and I for one might get bored after a while otherwise. Also, as I said, I do think this direction of “purity of purpose” with kits is sorely needed, and I can see it making the frantic kit-switching that is necessary for top dps a thing of the past in favor of having more diversity on the 6-10 skills and for builds without sacrificing dps for whatever kind of build you go with.

The flamethrower launched as a condition weapon, only became a power weapon to address an, at the time, unfixable exploit with the channeled auto.

It was always intended that it be a condition weapon.

Why is this even a discussion? There is a BURNING condition, it’s a FLAMEthrower. This is like saying our poison grenade shouldn’t poison.

This change destroyed the profession for me.

I know that sounds dramatic, but FT kit is really what I enjoyed about engineer. Running around as a viking with a flamethrower was my jam. In vanilla, it wasn’t very good, but I still ran a juggernaut build with hoelbrak runes and on critical sigils and had fun. HoT brought scrapper and some awesome synergies to form my go to build, the scrappernaut. Boon duration silliness abounded, and much fun was had.

Now, that’s done. I can shift some of it into a condition build, but I’ve never been into dots. There really isn’t a particularly good power build left. I have 9 80s, so I can readily switch, I’m just not thrilled at having something destroyed that I’ve been enjoying for years in the name of “purity of purpose”…

After even more thought, I think this change was great and I would actually like to see more like it.

Relegating every kit to SPECIFIC purposes is step one in re-balacing the class to be less wonky.

I am actually looking forward to the day when the grenade kit gets nerfed into the ground or gets a re-work. That thing has hung like a specter over the class since day one.

lorddarkflare.9186:

I am actually looking forward to the day when the grenade kit gets nerfed into the ground or gets a re-work. That thing has hung like a specter over the class since day one.

Couldn’t agree more. Most probems with “kits” are really problems with grenade meta. Fix grenade, fix the prof!

Why would this change be great ? What kit harmonized that good with the scrapper hammer if not FT ? Juggernaught, 2 traits that give extra crit when closer than 240units, perma stability & 25 might due to many (smaller) crits…and a lot of other things…

Makes no sense to use scrapper when you are forced to stack condition on your char, does it ?

Legit Prep In.5893:

Why would this change be great ? What kit harmonized that good with the scrapper hammer if not FT ? Juggernaught, 2 traits that give extra crit when closer than 240units, perma stability & 25 might due to many (smaller) crits…and a lot of other things…

Makes no sense to use scrapper when you are forced to stack condition on your char, does it ?

You’re being short-sighted. Don’t you know that might-stacking increases both power AND condition damage? So even if you were to use the FT with Hammer and if you were to take Juggernaut, you would find that, you’re still doing good damage. And the damage might also be better damage because the burning from Flamethrower will keep ticking even when your target is dodging or you’re too busy healing to hit your target. This allows you to keep sustained pressure on them.

Now compare that to when you don’t have that sustained pressure with burning. When your target dodges, you won’t be dealing damage. When they block, you won’t be dealing damage. When you yourself are busy scratching your botox, you won’t be dealing damage.

I certainly hope I don’t have to push 1 while I scratch my botox

After Update I’m having fun with a hybrid flamethrower/hammer. Running Vigilant gear. I’m at 100% Burning Duration, 80% Boon Duration w/food 100% Boon.
2205 Power
1975 Toughness
125 Condition Damage
Add on Juggernauts Mights/Poinpoint Distribution your Condition Damage and 8 Sec AA Burrns especially with Quickness, Incendiary Ammo, and Napalm adds up

Obtena.7952:

There could be lots of reasons to care about build diversity. I don’t think it’s fun to run the same build all the time.

Pretty much. If, for whatever reason, the build with the most DPS build possible is one you don’t enjoy, it’s good to have other builds that are at least competitive.

Ardid.7203:

lorddarkflare.9186:

I am actually looking forward to the day when the grenade kit gets nerfed into the ground or gets a re-work. That thing has hung like a specter over the class since day one.

Couldn’t agree more. Most probems with “kits” are really problems with grenade meta. Fix grenade, fix the prof!

I’d put it the other way around – fix the rest of the profession so that engineers remain competitive while grenades get fixed.

Personally, I’d love to see grenades returned to throwing one at a time – the grenadier trait was a major distortion to how grenades work and the various rebalances since have only distorted things further. Go back to throwing one grenade at a time, and not only will it require less suspension of disbelief, but the various Explosives traits can then be rebalanced on the basis that you’ll usually only have one explosion going off at a time, rather than having to be balanced for grenades and generally being weak with anything else as a result.