Guild Wars 2

Could we please get some kind of fix for this? It makes Flamethrower completely useless for WvW large group play and you’d think this weapon would be ideal for that given the traits for it.

We just kill ourselves on the retaliation which is very frustrating and doesn’t really make sense given its a flamethrower.

Why do you think that retaliation shouldn’t work against a flamethrower?

Omega Mayhem.7163:

Why do you think that retaliation shouldn’t work against a flamethrower?

It isn’t about Retaliation working or not working, it’s about the magnitude.

Anyone that has used a flamethrower in WvW knows what I’m talking about. Flamethrower will take as much damage as it dishes out against someone with retaliation as its many small damage fast strikes.

I actually made a recent topic in-line with this. My love and hate relationship with flamethrower (because of ret) was one of the main reasons I made this thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Let-s-tweak-Retaliation-mechanics/first#post3383587

Trikki.5803:

Anyone that has used a flamethrower in WvW knows what I’m talking about. Flamethrower will take as much damage as it dishes out against someone with retaliation as its many small damage fast strikes.

Takes much MORE damage than it dishes out.

I’m thinking that retaliation needs to be a percentage of the damage done instead of a flat value.

Trikki.5803:

I’m thinking that retaliation needs to be a percentage of the damage done instead of a flat value.

That makes too much sense, we can’t do that.

They actually toned retal down a bit awhile back. I do agree that it not good when you get return damage for more than your putting out. Not really a flamethrower thing but I remember shooting my coated pistol into a blob once and almost getting downed from the first shot.

Trikki.5803:

I’m thinking that retaliation needs to be a percentage of the damage done instead of a flat value.

thats too easily exploitable. seen it in ohter games.
why would you autoattack zergs with flamethrower tho, there’s so many reasons not to do it.

How about confusion? Do you get confusion ticks every flamethrower tick? Because that would be a bigger problem.

rivx.3267:

They actually toned retal down a bit awhile back. I do agree that it not good when you get return damage for more than your putting out. Not really a flamethrower thing but I remember shooting my coated pistol into a blob once and almost getting downed from the first shot.

Been there, lol.

It’s often harder to not get retal in a zerg than it is to get it : /

I think there needs to be a sort of diminished return for retaliation. Obviously, you want someone with more condition damage stat to deal more damage with their retaliation, but when spread aoe into a zerg, a single grenade barrage or channel of FT can kill an engi dead. Maybe a diminished return on damage received from multiple sources of ret within 0.5-1.0 second, reducing each successive hit by a percentage. This would let aoe ret still be viable, still deal damage for each person hit, but not be insta-death for a single aoe attack chain.

a little off topic but still on the topic of retaliation, blind blocks a whole grenade skill unless they hit at different times, so it usually blocks 3+ hits with one blind, but each hit still counts for retaliation, on the plus side at least each hit doesn’t count for confusion.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

a little off topic but still on the topic of retaliation, blind blocks a whole grenade skill unless they hit at different times, so it usually blocks 3+ hits with one blind, but each hit still counts for retaliation, on the plus side at least each hit doesn’t count for confusion.

Or reflection, where the damage roll is used, but the crit chance is rolled anew…

i think retaliation is death for any weapon kit,
grenades are hilarious, you lose a large chunk of HP each time you throw them.

Really retaliation should only work against melee attacks, how exactly does person retaliate against a fire? or something at range? doesn’t even make sense.

Susulemon.3204:

How about confusion? Do you get confusion ticks every flamethrower tick? Because that would be a bigger problem.

Nope, channeled skills count as one cast, not per tick or per hit.
So one flame=one confusion tick.

i feel like a fix could be simple. don’t flame jet into a group of people with retal.
or maybe halve the amount of attacks it deals but double the damage for each attack.

And should you target any single people in a group before attacking to see how many of them have retaliation?
Funny how an attack that is supposed to be used versus multiple enemies (low damage, relatively big cone radius, up to 3 targets) is so counterproductive versus multiple targets (especially due of how easy is to get retaliation).

Manuhell.2759:

And should you target any single people in a group before attacking to see how many of them have retaliation?
Funny how an attack that is supposed to be used versus multiple enemies (low damage, relatively big cone radius, up to 3 targets) is so counterproductive versus multiple targets (especially due of how easy is to get retaliation).

This^

The complaints about FT’s low damage are innumerable, so its strength must be in the ability to channel an aoe cone of damage over many targets. Right? Only that’s exactly the situation that hurts FT the most, because you can’t know what boons are on every player in front of you. And if a Guardian (not your target) whips out a SYG, SoJ, or SY you’ll never know and end up killing yourself.

One of FT’s strengths is its fast ticking autoattack which allows for a lot of potential crit procs. I don’t necessarily want to see that disappear. I think the problem isn’t with FT, but rather with retaliation. Anet toned down confusion, and that’s a single target kinda condition (afaik). Why not tone down the way ret works? It needs either a reduction in damage, to return a percentage of damage received, or to only proc per skill use, not per damage tick.

Seras.5702:

The complaints about FT’s low damage are innumerable, so its strength must be in the ability to channel an aoe cone of damage over many targets. Right?

no the strength comes from being able to stack large burn duration, its control, and its respectable burst from the 2 skill. then you swap to an actual offensive kit to deal aoe damage.

I’ve used a frontline FT/EG build for ages. Fortunately, FT’s largest chunk of damage does not come from the auto!

Only time I ever experience problems with Retal is when I come across an organized tagged blob (guild groups), in which case there’s plenty of other ways to be useful that don’t involve autoing myself to death.

Occasionally non tagged zergs/militia will have a couple retal stackers as well, but it’s still not nearly as common as people seem to suggest in my experience, particularly if your group has any amount of boon strippers in it’s makeup.

If you want to talk about problems with retaliation, take a look at Ranger LB #5 Barrage, or grenade barrage. At least flamethrower users can stop attacking before it kills us.

TL;DR – I know it’s tempting to want to autoattack #1 in every situation in GW2, but just don’t do it against a counter to it, and then complain that a weapon skill is broken.

Obviously the strength comes from being able to stack large burn duration with the toolbelt and the #4 skill (on the assumption that people will stay above a thin strip of fire and that we haven’t got anything else to deal burning, like a second pistol or a fire bomb or rocket boots or a master trait or a sigil and i’m probably forgetting something else), its control, and the respectable burst from the only other direct damaging skill apart from the autoattack.
Then you swap out from this weapon kit (despite it being supposed to be used as a weapon, as the category would imply) to get another offensive kit (probably a device kit like bomb kit or grenade kit, that aren’t categorized as weapon kits but work as better weapons than the weapon kits).
Sure, it all makes sense.

Halcyon.7352:

TL;DR – I know it’s tempting to want to autoattack #1 in every situation in GW2, but just don’t do it against a counter to it, and then complain that a weapon skill is broken.

We’re talking about an autoattack and one of the only two direct damaging skills of the kit. On a weapon that it is also supposed to be used constantly with certain traits like juggernaut – else you won’t benefit from the extra toughness and might stacks.
Whose “counter” is a boon easily stackable as an area buff. That can hurt you more than the damage you dealt to the enemies. On a skill that is supposed to be used to attack multiple enemies, and yet becomes more deadly for the user if there are multiple enemies.

I would say that something is indeed wrong.

with that logic the tool kit is also a weapon kit and we should be able to do millions of damage with the tool kit too. i mean the tool kit only has the auto and prybar for damaging attacks. i mean the shield sucks because it only really works if someone is attacking you. and magnet? worthless. does no damage. and it has a finite range.

That logic is the one of the devs – i’m not the one that decided to categorize kits that way.
And indeed the tool kit is categorized as a weapon kit (albeit a sort of mace/shield one; and obviously a shield gets to have defensive uses too). It would also have the additional use of turret healing, if only turrets were decent enough.
And at least it doesn’t hurt yourself more than the enemy with the autoattack if an enemy has got retaliation (also, presently, is the only melee non-aoe weapon we’ve got).